Short Pass and 3 and 4 deep zone

[claretonmyshirt]

Does anyone know how to stop the short pass, I play in 3 multi player leagues and can stop the medium and long but not the short, tried blitzing, tried various typers of coverage and various types of skill sets for Linebackers and Cornerbacks but nothing works.

3 Deep Zone seems to be very good at stopping the run at times which kind of baffles me, but terrible at stopping the pass, any one have ideas on this or seen the same thing?

[Ben E Lou]

According to the help file, 2-deep bump and run might be what you're looking for.

2-Deep, Bump and Run - This is the "Cover-2" defense that so many teams use today. Both safeties drop into deep zones, and the other pass defenders play much closer to the receivers, often bumping them within the legal five-yard limit. This defense has no major weaknesses, and is a little stronger against a short passing attack.

[claretonmyshirt]

Sorry i did not make myself clear, if you play bump and run you need players that play it well, so bump and run is obviously needed, but what else because i have LB's and WR's that have skills well in excess of 60 for B&R and it does not stop the short pass.

So do i need CB's and LB's that hit hard for the contact within the first 5 yards

Is it Diag and B&R,

Is it B&R with a bit of Zone or Man

If i play 9 in the box B&R there for making the SS go into closing coverage that does not work.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp

[Ben E Lou]

Sorry i did not make myself clear, if you play bump and run you need players that play it well, so bump and run is obviously needed, but what else because i have LB's and WR's that have skills well in excess of 60 for B&R and it does not stop the short pass.

So do i need CB's and LB's that hit hard for the contact within the first 5 yards

Is it Diag and B&R,

Is it B&R with a bit of Zone or Man

If i play 9 in the box B&R there for making the SS go into closing coverage that does not work.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp

I'm also curious about your definition of "does not work." I just looked through 15 seasons in SP with 6.1, and my three MP leagues that are using 6.1 for the first season. Overall completion percentage on short passes is consistently in the 79-82% range every season, and even the very best defenses at stopping it give up 70% completions.

[claretonmyshirt]

The same here my leagues show 80% completion with a 5.2 average, so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains, there has to be a way of stopping it. In the NFL this does not happen.

Double coverage does not work, blitzing does not work something has to work.

There has to be a type of CB or LB that stops it, a player with like i say Good diag and B&R or some other combination.

[Ben E Lou]

so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains
Do it too much, and the defense will become extremely familiar with that play, I suppose. *shurg*

[claretonmyshirt]

But if you have a QB who knows 17 formations and thuses most of them then this would nulify the "extremely familiar" wouln't it.

On Pass defence if your using a double team and playing B&R does your safety double team using his B&R skill or zone or a mix and match of the two, FOF should tell people this as its a basic thing.

Also how many times does a LB make the tackle on a completed long pass, I appreciate if for insantce if there's a mix match this could happen but not when i am playing nickel or dime and he is play a 2 WR set

Thre are just to many unknowns in this game that you should be told as basics, i appreciate half the fun is working it out for your self but come on FOF give us a clue because lots of people are getting so pissed off with the game that they are binning it and that can not be good for FOF

[marcmoustache]

so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains, there has to be a way of stopping it. In the NFL this does not happen.

I'm not sure that this is true, as you've just defined the west coast offence haven't you?

[claretonmyshirt]

I'm not sure that this is true, as you've just defined the west coast offence haven't you?

But from the 6 leagues me and Skydog are in 2 out of three short passes get completed at an average of 5+ yards across all 32 teams so does that mean the Westcoast offence works for everyone ?

I just feel FOF need to explain the basics a lot better, like i say what does a Safety use when in double coverage Man or Zone or what.

Why does a LB make a tackle after a 25 yard gain to a WR, the WR would leave him for dead,

[gstelmack]

Why does a LB make a tackle after a 25 yard gain to a WR, the WR would leave him for dead,

Why? This is precisely what makes the "Tampa-2" a "Tampa-2" and not a "Cover-2": speedy MLB handling the deep middle against the slot receiver or TE.

[Surtt]

I just feel FOF need to explain the basics a lot better, like i say what does a Safety use when in double coverage Man or Zone or what.



You are not alone.

If you check out some of the other posts on coverage, that is a hot topic.
It seems like no one really knows the answer to that question.

[OldSchool]

All I need to see is "4-3 formation with dime personnel aggressively expecting the run" and look at the game-planning screens for defense and I know that the way Jim has modeled defenses does not translate well to my view of the real game. I've got a feeling its the kind of thing that's going to need a new version and probably be a part of a major rewrite so maybe it'll improve in future versions. For now, I just accept that I'm not going to be able to gameplan my defense quite the way I like it, and concentrate on offensive gameplanning.

[gstelmack]

You are missing the 4-deep zone part of your example...

[claretonmyshirt]

well i think is bloody stupid that we are not told, i knows its a game but we are supposed to run a Football team and we don't know how to stop a short pass.

I am close to binning FOF and going back to Madden because its impossible to work things out and I don't feel that's there much fun when alot of the results to me seem to be random

[Dave Hansen]

I'm in the middle of my third season...so not a lot of experience.

Last training camp I put 4 hours/day into defense. What I "seem" to be seeing thru 15 games this season is not so much the comp% going down, but the Y/C and Y/A down about one full yard.

I call all my plays, and in watching the PBP it looks like 7 yard routes connect for 5/6 yards...11 yard routes for 9/10...15 for 12/14 on more occassions than in past seasons.

This seems espicially true on 3rd down plays. "More" third down completions seem to come up a yard short on more occassions than last year. My opponent's 3rd% has dropped from 35.3% to 30.3% this year.

My $.02. And I know that there are a lot of other factors to consider, but all LB/CB/S are back from the previous year and their ratings are the same.

Teams that utilize their TE along with RB/FB a lot I tend to play MTM with one deep zone from a nickle set. Vulnerable to deep throws to WR's, but a gamble to stop the short passes completions a yard or two short of distance required. Blitz about 35% of the time.

[claretonmyshirt]

I would suggest that the reason the stats have changed is the expereince of your players has gone up and maybe the cohesion of the units has gone up also if you have the same players coming back from last year.

I appreciate the help put i want to know how to get my DB or LB there before his WR or at least so he can stop the receiver catching the ball.

In every sports im there is a combination of weighted skills plus a random die that makes something work or stops it from working and i feel FOF need to tell us roughly what they are without giving the game away.

[Subby]

email support AT solecismic dot com and you'll get your answers

[claretonmyshirt]

I have emailed them, if i get the answers or any answers i will post them so all people can have there answers,

hopefully we may get some answers

[IMetTrentGreen]

Think about it in real life terms. The short passing game is really hard to stop in the NFL, too. The trade off is that eventually the QB will miss a throw, or a WR will drop a pass, put them in 3rd and long, and the drive will stall. So if you are that concerned about it, play conservative and let the offense fizzle out on it's own.

That's why Texas Tech will always put up dazzling numbers but never actually win anything.

[claretonmyshirt]

Think about it in real life terms. The short passing game is really hard to stop in the NFL, too. The trade off is that eventually the QB will miss a throw, or a WR will drop a pass, put them in 3rd and long, and the drive will stall. So if you are that concerned about it, play conservative and let the offense fizzle out on it's own.

That's why Texas Tech will always put up dazzling numbers but never actually win anything.


The above is from FOF direct, amke of it as you will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't mean to be rude but what kind of answer is that, so what your saying is i just have to wait for him to miss, so what is the point of havng a defensive game plan, i might as well stick any old combination of defence in just basically the ones with the highest overall skill set, what is the point of having skills if you can't match them to performance, like i say i am three multi player leagues and lots are people are scratching there heads getting more and more frustrated and are slowly dropping out, which eventually means less sales and less people playing the game, we are not asking for all the answers, the guts of the game just some help, we are asking for proper answers not cryptic one's so please can we have some kind of answers.

What about the other questions, i.e what does the Safety use when he doubles up Zone or the coverage you are in, i.e bump and run

[claretonmyshirt]

The more i think about FOF's answer the more it makes me think that the skills within the game with reference to defence are pointless apart from the overall score and i think you are proving this.

So what you are stating here is that there is not much i can do about short passing apart for wait for the offence to mess up.

So the inspirational NFL Coach says to his defence before going on to the field "hey we can not do anything about short passes just wait for the offence to mess up and hopefully it a be before they get to the endzone or in FG range".

come on please tell me there is more to it that this

[Ben E Lou]

While I'm very much of the opinion that the community needs more information about how to game plan defensively, I don't get your beef about short passing. The documentation seems to make it crystal clear that Bump and Run is better. And as to your realism argument, it seems like that's precisely what a coach would tell his players: play up close to the line, and tackle well.

I'm not following you on what you mean by "FOF's answer," either.

But if you have a QB who knows 17 formations and thuses most of them then this would nulify the "extremely familiar" wouln't it.No. It doesn't at all. I tried all short passing with an 18-formation QB, and it failed miserably. You'd have to mix in some running and medium/long passing.

[claretonmyshirt]

I emailed FOF and that was reply i got via email so as i said it's "FOF or Solecismics answer",

I am not asking for a scheme that takes SP below 50% what I am asking for is someone namely Solecismic to explain defence and give us the users some fair insight, is it not a reasonable question to ask some one to explain defence.

Once again i will ask Solecismic the same questions is there a combination of skills required for each type of cover, so for b&R cover does man and Diag have any part in the total score for instance, what does Diag actually do, does a safety in double coverage use his zone or B&R skill or a combination of both, why do offsides occur, is it due to inexperience, intelligence or what, why does the 2nd HB run more than the 1st HBat times even when the 1st HB is supposed to play more and the has higher endurance

I THINK THESE ARE VERY FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK and people should be given the answers so that they do not get disillusioned with the game as so many are, you only have to look at these boards to see that.

[Ben E Lou]

I emailed FOF and that was reply i got via email so as i said it's "FOF or Solecismics answer", Umm...what answer. You didn't post an answer unless I missed something.

Once again i will ask Solecismic the same questions is there a combination of skills required for each type of cover, so for b&R cover does man and Diag have any part in the total score for instance, what does Diag actually do, does a safety in double coverage use his zone or B&R skill or a combination of both, why do offsides occur, is it due to inexperience, intelligence or what, why does the 2nd HB run more than the 1st HBat times even when the 1st HB is supposed to play more and the has higher endurance

I THINK THESE ARE VERY FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK and people should be given the answers so that they do not get disillusioned with the game as so many are, you only have to look at these boards to see that.

Some of those are legitimate questions. We already got an answer on RB endurance, though, in the Q&A (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=61562) done recently.

[claretonmyshirt]

Yeah i think you missed a big point and thats why will FOF not answer the questions directly instead of playing one forum user off against another.

I appreciate your help Skydog but at the end of the day unless they start answering questions its there customers they are going to lose.

SO FOF PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

[Ben E Lou]

You still haven't said what the reply you got was...

[claretonmyshirt]

The reply was the one from Imettrentgreen which i thought was direct from them as i had not posted on here before, thought imettrendgrren was a FOF employee, my mistake sorry

When i email them all they do is send back who ever answers the thread's comments, load of bollox as far as i am concerned.

I think the basic answer is the game is nowhere near as indepth as they'd like to make out, i've played 20 years worth of sports sims mainly soccer and English like sports and they always explain to a certain degree not leave it up to the user to guess and have no real way of working things out.

Like i say loads of people are pissed of with this and FOF could make it so much better for everyone if they answered some basic questions, instead it seems to me we have to beg like dogs to get answers to simple questions that should be covered, and this man don't beg. I am going to give it a week to see if they answer my questions and if not its back to madden and the likes for me and i think lots more are thinking this way, well they are in my leagues when the weekly discussion htread come up and they can't work out for the life of them why certain things are happening.

the game is either bug ridden or not as indepth as they like to make out if not they'd answer the questions.

[Ramzavail]

Sorry to interject here on your very important Q&A - but who are the "loads of people " that are pissed off and what leagues are these people "scratching their heads and dropping out of"?

I didn't know we had such a large UK fanbase.

[claretonmyshirt]

you don't but it could have a big UK fan base.

[Ramzavail]

ladies and gentlemen - its Roger Goodell!

[claretonmyshirt]

what do they call you then Mr Sarky Bastard

[Ben E Lou]

OK then...back to the issues at hand. Ramz did ask a good one: what leagues are people dropping out of or about to drop out of?

[claretonmyshirt]

Sod what Mr sarky B@stard asked i'm still waiting for my answers, i'm not going to name names but if you where in one of my leagues may be two you'd know

[Ben E Lou]

I don't mean people...just leagues.

[claretonmyshirt]

what do you want a know for ?

[Ramzavail]

(shhh...its the password for all your answers) just tell him...then FOF will speak.

[claretonmyshirt]

ramslittleboys or what ever your name is you got anything interesting to say if not fuck off

[Ben E Lou]

what do you want a know for ?

To see what leagues might have openings soon.

[claretonmyshirt]

Most of them have openings normally don't they, the ENFL does i think if your looking for a team but i'm not in that league, i 'm sure you know a lt of leagues as you seem to post a hell of a lot on here

[claretonmyshirt]

I play a single game as well as the Raiders and Russell's read is about 40 yet he throws in to double coverage less than other QB's who have much higher Read rating, yet the help manual says that the higher the read the less chance he will throw to the double coverage the only thing i can think of here is that the receiver in double coverage is more open than the guy in single coverage so he throws it to him.

Thoughts?

[Ben E Lou]

I play a single game as well as the Raiders and Russell's read is about 40 yet he throws in to double coverage less than other QB's who have much higher Read rating, yet the help manual says that the higher the read the less chance he will throw to the double coverage the only thing i can think of here is that the receiver in double coverage is more open than the guy in single coverage so he throws it to him.

Thoughts?
Only one game? Sample size.

[claretonmyshirt]

I've played about 30 games with them using solvision so i can basically write down the times each QB throws to or away from double coverage, from about 250 attempts where Russell could of thrown into double coverage he has done so about 20% of the time. His Read Rating has gone from 30 initially to about 46 now.

16 of the oppositions QB's had rating of above 50 rating upto 91 and they threw about 25% into double coverage, small sample but the only way really to do it is by watching game to game, but it stills seems to show something different to what the help files suggest.

[Ben E Lou]

His Read Rating has gone from 30 initially to about 46 now.Ah. That's what's happening here. If you're only two seasons in (30 games), his ratings are probably still masked quite a bit.

[claretonmyshirt]

but i would of thought that the scout would know how good he is now and that is what you should go on, so what your saying is that the sliders are not to be trusted in any shape or form and a player who rates as say 40 now with a future of 80 is better at this moment than a player who is at 60 and maxed out. If thats what your saying how can that make sense, i'm not saying your wrong as you seem to have run many tests etc just seems very strange to me.

The same applies to HB's Jordan and Rhodes, both are maxed out Jordan is the better runner easily by the sliders yet Rhodes always has a higher YPC

[Ben E Lou]

so what your saying is that the sliders are not to be trusted in any shape or form and a player who rates as say 40 now with a future of 80 is better at this moment than a player who is at 60 and maxed out.No. That's not what I'm saying in all cases.

[claretonmyshirt]

sorry if i'm being thick here but what are you saying then ?

If his Read Rating is 46 then allowing for a few points either way dependant on my scout surely his rating is below the other QB's and therefore his read is worse making him throw in to double coverage more than the other QB's who have a far higher rating.

I have played Football Manager 1m copies sold for 10 years plus many other sports sims and FOF at times just does not make sense.

[primelord]

sorry if i'm being thick here but what are you saying then ?

If his Read Rating is 46 then allowing for a few points either way dependant on my scout surely his rating is below the other QB's and therefore his read is worse making him throw in to double coverage more than the other QB's who have a far higher rating.

I have played Football Manager 1m copies sold for 10 years plus many other sports sims and FOF at times just does not make sense.

Thank goodness you added that FM has sold 1 million copies. Your point would have made no sense without that in there.

[claretonmyshirt]

made sense to me

[Rizon]

I use to get eaten up by short passing, mainly by screen passes to RBs. I started to call my own plays, and when I suspected a screen pass, I'd go to B&R with no blitzes. The computer would usually make the completion, but for about 1 or 2 yards. I basically shut them down.

[Julio Riddols]

Dude.. Theres being rational, then theres this.. It doesn't seem to me you know a great deal about American Football, and I don't even mean that to be a negative comment. The problem is, instead of trying to be understanding about what you are being told, you are dismissing everyones answers because you think you are right no matter what.

The game has some issues, but they are nowhere near the big deal you are making them out to be- If you expect the scout on your team to be right about everything, then youre overlooking the fact that scouts are human and humans make errors in judgement. The ratings you're talking about are being given to you by a scout who can be wrong. Theres a reason a guy like Rich Gannon or Jeff Hostetler didn't start for a majority of their career, thats because no one saw their talent.

As far as stopping the short pass, its pretty simple, you can't really "stop" the short pass. Its a very high percentage play, but just like a run it can be stopped by playing sound defense and making tackles. If one team threw only short passes, not only would they increase the risk of a turnover on the long drives they have to go on (due to a missed blocking assignment or a bad throw into coverage, etc.) but they would also have a hard time being consistently successful. This is why long and intermediate passes and runs are essential to any offense. Therefore, to stop teams, maybe your focus should be on your overall defense, not so much stopping the short pass. Really, the short pass should be the least of your worries.

For instance, look at the Colts this season, their pass defense is among the best in the league,allowing a QB rating of 72.9.. They are giving opponents 65.6% completion rates, but only allowing 5.6 yards per attempt, because they stop the deep pass. (only 12 passes over 20 yards, only 3 of those for more than 40) They simply tackle the short pass. There really is no stopping the short pass. Not even in the real NFL.

[Dutch]

Interesting thread mutation--claretonmyshirt starts off by preaching to the choir, then locks the doors, dumps gasoline on everything, and demands he gets answers or else.

[Narcizo]

Most teams average over 3.33 yards a carry on runs. HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO STOP A TEAM RUSHING!1!!!1

[claretonmyshirt]

Mr Riddols, why does it seem i know nothing, why can we not be told certain things by FOF, i was not asking for a play that stops the SP dead in its track just a combination of skills that gives me the best chance of limiting it and I feel FOF should provide us with better information as SkyDog also says.

Would it not help you to know when the safety plays double coverage what skill he uses for the die roll (zone or say B&R or whatever) depending what coverage your in, plus there's a lot more questions people I think would want answered or help with.

I also very much appreciate my scout may make mistakes as I have said earlier in this thread , I have also asked Skydog questions so if I thought i was right all the time why would i keep asking questions wanting to learn.

I just find it very frustrating playing a game where its very hard to work out if your doing the right thing or not at times.

I admit i am no expert but by the records in your 4 leagues nor are you.

[Julio Riddols]

I think the safety plays a combination of man and zone when double teaming. I'm not sure where it has been mentioned, but I believe I remember Jim himself saying somewhere on this board that a combination of the coverage ratings were used when calculating any coverage. I'll look it up and see if I can find it.

I'll take that remark about my record as playful gamesmanship and hopefully we meet in the eNFL this season. Then I'll put it on the bulletin board for the guys to get pumped about.

Good luck finding the answers you're looking for.

[Julio Riddols]

Here is that thread I was thinking of.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=55675

[Hammer]

I didn't know we had such a large UK fanbase.

There are a fair few of us about playing the game. The RDFL is a full multiplayer league based in England, although it isn't all Brits in the league. Although the odd question comes up it seems, in general, everyone really enjoys the game and dropouts are very low.

I have emailed solecismic in the past and found the answers very helpful in the main.

I thought the TS point about read defense was an interesting one though. I always assumed it helped in throwing away from double coverage more often, but does it? Are there times you may want to throw into double coverage with a stud WR?

I'd also sure like to know what play diagnosis does.

[Warhammer]

A couple of things here:

First, the way this system is setup, if you have guys that are great at any single type of coverage, you are typically better off running that coverage than trying to get the play call right.

This is true of the NFL, sure Bump and Run is better against the short pass, but if you don't have guys that are good at it, its not going to do you any good, it will probably hurt you more than it helps you.

Second, you need to think about pass defense differently than in the past. You need to think about what your defense is doing in each pass situation. An extreme passing situation is not going deep, it just means that you are expecting pass more than 91% of the time. It might not be a deep pass, so you set your coverage appropriately.

This setup is not ideal, but is probably the best we will get (I can't think of a better system either), and can be used effectively, if you think about it. What happens to me is that I do forget about this, and wind up planning suboptimal coverage schemes, rather than what I should be doing.

[Warhammer]

There are a fair few of us about playing the game. The RDFL is a full multiplayer league based in England, although it isn't all Brits in the league. Although the odd question comes up it seems, in general, everyone really enjoys the game and dropouts are very low.

I have emailed solecismic in the past and found the answers very helpful in the main.

I thought the TS point about read defense was an interesting one though. I always assumed it helped in throwing away from double coverage more often, but does it? Are there times you may want to throw into double coverage with a stud WR?

I'd also sure like to know what play diagnosis does.

Play diagnosis is used (I think) when a play opposite of your play call is used. You're in run d, they pass, etc. I think this is checked to mitigate the error in the play call.

I used this quite a bit in the early Imperial League where I would force the other team into a pass defense, and then go heavy in that direction but have a low aggression in pass defense. The result was good pass defense numbers and good running defense numbers. This was backed up by the fact we were a top 3 defense over the first 6 or 7 years of the league (not each year, but on average).

[Hammer]

Thats what I liked to think it ment Warhammer. I just haven't been able to get any sort of handle on how important it is to a player.

[claretonmyshirt]

thank you to the people who have helped

[Icy]

I have exactly the opposite problem. In the two leagues i'm in, and despite having good defenses, specially top league safeties, every team looks able to convert deep passes on me as they want, specially on 3rd downs when expecting the pass and double covering.

[IMetTrentGreen]

So the inspirational NFL Coach says to his defence before going on to the field "hey we can not do anything about short passes just wait for the offence to mess up and hopefully it a be before they get to the endzone or in FG range".

Uh . . . yeah. They tell them to tackle well and hold everything short. If we sell out to stop every short pass, you open yourself up to a world of trouble downfield.

It's pretty common to just give up underneath routes and try to hit the WR hard when they catch it.

[marcmoustache]

But from the 6 leagues me and Skydog are in 2 out of three short passes get completed at an average of 5+ yards across all 32 teams so does that mean the Westcoast offence works for everyone ?


Well, they can all run it to some level of success, but only some teams will do it very well.

[Ben E Lou]

Well, they can all run it to some level of success, but only some teams will do it very well.

Right. And until we've seen multiple teams do it week after week in FOF, we can't really declare it to be a huge issue. I have some concerns myself about the changes in 6.1, but it's best to see how it plays out before we declare that the sky is falling. ;)