Did This Highway Patrolman Use Excessive Force?

[duckman]

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc

The video above is a man being tased for refusing to put his hands behind his head after he refused to sign his traffic ticket.

[Radii]

I have a real hard time with this. It certainly seems like the officer was very quick with the taser, but at the same time if the guy turned out to have a knife or gun in his pocket it would change the circumstances entirely.

Bottom line is that you are a complete moron if you get pulled over and don't do exactly what the officer tells you... you can always fight it in court. In the face of a cop just is not the time to be playing constitutional scholar.

[Flasch186]

hmmmm, excessive?

Im going to vote yes and say he probably over-reacted at that time. He may have ended up doing the same thing 3-10 seconds later but at that moment I didn't see it as being necessary.

[ISiddiqui]

I have a real hard time with this. It certainly seems like the officer was very quick with the taser, but at the same time if the guy turned out to have a knife or gun in his pocket it would change the circumstances entirely.

Yep, exactly. If I had to pick one, I'd say slightly excessive, but it's hard to fault the officer too much. The guy did look like he was brushing off the cop and going back to the car. Then again, the officer should have been a bit more open saying "You are under arrest" and actually telling the guy why he was pulled over.

[lighthousekeeper]

excessive / unnecessary.

[Clark]

I said no. The kid looked like he was going to get back into his car and possibly drive away. Watch the kid attempt to reach into his pants pocket with his right hand when he walks away from the cop. No problem justifying his use of force.

[Clark]

Then again, the officer should have been a bit more open saying "You are under arrest" and actually telling the guy why he was pulled over.

He did tell him at least twice why he pulled him over.

[Drake]

Be a dick with the cops at your own peril. Oh yeah, and tell your girlfriend to stay in the car. I would have tased her, too, just for being an idiot.

[Chief Rum]

Excessive force? No.

Too quick? Yes.

As mentioned, probably should have waited another 3-10 seconds before resorting to the actual trigger. Probably a verbal warning that if the man continued to move toward the car, he would be tased. That probably would have stopped him.

[Toddzilla]

Be a dick with the cops at your own peril.QFT

[Crim]

Excessive force? No.

Too quick? Yes.

As mentioned, probably should have waited another 3-10 seconds before resorting to the actual trigger. Probably a verbal warning that if the man continued to move toward the car, he would be tased. That probably would have stopped him.

What CR said.

[molson]

Bottom line is that you are a complete moron if you get pulled over and don't do exactly what the officer tells you... you can always fight it in court. In the face of a cop just is not the time to be playing constitutional scholar.

So true. You have to be a total dick to end up being tased by an officer. The argument about who shound be tased ends up somewhere between "total dick" and "massive retard", so it really doesn't effect us.

[Drake]

The more important question to me is: If your buddy brought home a taser from work, how many beers do you think you'd need before playing with it seemed like a good idea?

My personal over/under is probably 4.

[molson]

The more important question to me is: If your buddy brought home a taser from work, how many beers do you think you'd need before playing with it seemed like a good idea?

My personal over/under is probably 4.

I can't honestly say I wouldn't play with a taser completely sober.

[Drake]

Dude, you live in Idaho. Do you expect me to believe that playing with a taser has never crossed your mind?



:)

[Greyroofoo]

I think people in Idaho make love with the Smurf Turf

[Grammaticus]

The cop who shot the guy actually lies or gives information that is not true to the other cop. He says that he told the driver to "turn around right now or I taze you". This is incorrect, he told the driver to turn around a few times, then said "turn around right now" and tazed him with saying he was going to do it.

I'm not sure if that is a big deal or not. If there is some department procedure or protocol to give a warning before tazing in a non threatening situation (or any situation), then the cop failed.

Unfortunately both the cop and the driver were douches. If the cop had any kind of skill, he could have handled that without tazing. He was a lazy bum and is proof that cops (at lease some cops) are possibly over paid.

So who really cares beyond how this type of situation affects future regulation of tazer use?

[Atocep]

If I had a taser in my hand it would have taken more willpower than I could possibly muster not to tase the shit out of the stupid girlfiriend. Just for being stupid.

Therefore, I think he actually showed a bit of restraint. :)

[CU Tiger]

Don't taze me, bro....


Ok now that thats out of my system.

#1 I cant believe anyone thinks cops are over paid. I think starting salary around here is 26k/year and top pay for an officer(non detective, investigator or desk jockey) is 37k/year....uh yeah. GOOD DAMN MONEY THERE

While I think he probably could have waited, I would much prefer that he didnt and an "innocent" criminal got tazed (tased?) than he did wait and an innocent cop got shot. The tazer is not lethal force, but what (if anything) a potential criminal has is.

[ISiddiqui]

Brings up a good point. In some jurisdictions the police procedures classify a tazer are being only appropriate to be used to respond to potentially lethal force.

[st.cronin]

The more important question to me is: If your buddy brought home a taser from work, how many beers do you think you'd need before playing with it seemed like a good idea?

My personal over/under is probably 4.

1.5

But I'm a lightweight.

[DanGarion]

The guy was a complete ass and deserved what the officer did. He appeared to be reaching into his pocket and the officer had already shown the man that he had his taser drawn. If you are too stupid to notice that and continue to resist you deserve to be subdued in this way.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

That was total bullshit. First of all, refusing to sign a ticket is well within your rights. To start, there was absolutely no reason why the cop should have asked the guy to get out of the car, other than to go on some power trip because he was ticked that the guy told him he wouldn't sign it. Until he asked the guy to get out of the car, he was absolutely no threat whatsoever (notice how he supposedly lowers the wife's threat by telling her to get BACK into the car). Once he asked him to get out of the car for no reason, the cop elevated it to a potentially threatening situation that even necessitated the use of the taser; which of course he resorted to way too quickly. The cop used a potentially lethal weapon had the guy had any heart condition just cause he wanted to be a dick.

Bottom line, the cop didn't like the guy's attitude (a totally legal attitude), decided to show who's boss by ordering him out of the car, and then rammed the point home by tasering him right away. Can his fuckin' ass. Exactly the kind of power hungry 'tard you don't want enforcing the law.

I mean he tells the wife he was going to jail because he didn't sign his citation. Uh, wrong. And as already pointed out, he never told him he was arresting him. He tells the wife it "didn't have to go this way," and that's right, it only did because the cop was a power hungry trigger happy asshat. I love how he justifies the taser with the other cop with his story which is a totally inaccurate account of what we saw in the video.

NB. I'm all for cops getting rough when needed with criminals in all seriousness. But not with routine traffic stop of a guy driving with his pregnant wife. What a complete joke.

[sabotai]

The guy was a complete ass and deserved what the officer did. He appeared to be reaching into his pocket and the officer had already shown the man that he had his taser drawn. If you are too stupid to notice that and continue to resist you deserve to be subdued in this way.

Yup. The guy gets out of the car, hand partially in pocket. A cop turns around and sees that and they are pulling their weapon every single time. You do not put your hands anywhere near your pockets when a cop is talking to you. And then he starts walking away (hand still in pocket), refusing to do what the cop says.

Not excessive force.

And I would have tazered the woman as a good deed for the human race.

[BYU 14]

That wasn't bullshit at all. Comply and have your day in court if you don't agree with it. The Driver even told the Officer "going a little fast huh?" when he pulled him over, then he wants to argue with him later? The rural highways in Utah are major drug corridors and unfortunately the couriers don't come with a sign that identifies them. Walking back to your Car and going into your pocket as you walk are enough to to take action when you are alone and don't know what is in the Car, or the pocket.

Sorry, this guy was being a smart ass and not complying with the Officers commands. I would rather have one harmless smartass tasered a little too quickly than another Police Officer killed because he was a little too patient. Don't be a fuckhead with the Police and there are no worries..

[Jas_lov]

Yeah, that guy was just stupid. He's telling the cop "What the heck is wrong with you?" and he's got one hand in his pocket while he's walking away from the cop and towards the car. Perhaps he used the taser a little too soon, but all the guy had to do was cooperate. It's usually wise to just comply, especially when he's got the taser gun pointed at you! I would not have tasered the pregnant wife just for being an idiot or as a good deed like some of you suggested above though. What the heck is wrong with you?

[Antmeister]

Excessive force? No.

Too quick? Yes.

As mentioned, probably should have waited another 3-10 seconds before resorting to the actual trigger. Probably a verbal warning that if the man continued to move toward the car, he would be tased. That probably would have stopped him.

I looked at this a few times and I can't really say it is too quick. Dude could have bolted for the car at any point. The fact that he continued to move away instead of just listening was already a bad sign.

[Chief Rum]

I looked at this a few times and I can't really say it is too quick. Dude could have bolted for the car at any point. The fact that he continued to move away instead of just listening was already a bad sign.

Actually, he never got to the point of bolting, and it was only as he slowly turned toward the car that he "continued to move away". Pretty much the instant he started to turn, he got tazed. And it wasn't like he was obviously about to run either.

[Marc Vaughan]

The chap was stupid by arguing agressively with the cop, but the fact he reached for the tazer so fast scares the heck out of me personally.

In the UK at least if you tried to drive away you'd get done for much more than speeding so it'd be fairly unlikely someone would try and leave the scene - I'm presuming the cop had run the licence tag etc. before the point where he tazered the chap by the fact that he'd been to the car with them (hence he knew the car was his, the chap wasn't likely to be a criminal on the run etc.).

[jeff061]

Yes.

[jeff061]

And what's this about not signing a citation? They can use force to get you to sign things? And he did turn around, just didn't get his hands back there within a couple seconds cause he was confused.

Cops, they bother me. In this case it wasn't one of the bad ones, just your average one.

[DanGarion]

And what's this about not signing a citation? They can use force to get you to sign things? And he did turn around, just didn't get his hands back there within a couple seconds cause he was confused.

Cops, they bother me. In this case it wasn't one of the bad ones, just your average one.

The guy had already been given 5 minutes, how much more time of asshatery do you need?

[damnMikeBrown]

It's not the kid's job to be rationale & protect & serve. He can argue about a ticket. The cop is an absolute retard, and should be fired. Didn't follow his instructions to sign a citation. . .read me my rights..do you want another hit with this?

Cop sucks, lost control of -himself- and blew it.

Edit: Wow, then completely lies & makes up a story to support his reckless disregard for his duty.

[jeff061]

The guy had already been given 5 minutes, how much more time of asshatery do you need?

I saw about 5 seconds. Not sure what video you were watching.

Asked to step out of the car, he stepped out of the car. Asked to turn around and turned around. In the confusion he started walking away from the cruiser and didn't have his hands behind his back and was tased after a couple seconds of that.

I saw zero hostility or aggression.

[jeff061]

And if not signing a citation is grounds for a tasing, well that's just fucked up. No one should be forced to sign anything under any circumstance, ever.

[Crim]

No one should be forced to sign anything under any circumstance, ever.

Got authority issues much?

[jeff061]

Heh, yeah. Kind of do.

It's helped me more than hurt me. So far.

[BYU 14]

And if not signing a citation is grounds for a tasing, well that's just fucked up. No one should be forced to sign anything under any circumstance, ever.

Your not forced to sign, refuse and get arrested...freedom of choice, the guy chose to be an ass, ass got tasered. Where is the accountability when you do something wrong? Sign the ticket, shut the fuck up and be on your way.

[Shepp]

Your not forced to sign, refuse and get arrested...freedom of choice, the guy chose to be an ass, ass got tasered. Where is the accountability when you do something wrong? Sign the ticket, shut the fuck up and be own your way.

+1

[jeff061]

See my post before that. Two seperate issues. He was not hostile or aggressive and was given just a few seconds prior to the tasing.

I was in a position a little while ago where a cop had me get out of my car. I was over by the guard rail and I took two steps towards my car and the cop snapped at me to sit down. The sudden hostility caught me off guard but I did, however I can see someone delaying for a few seconds out of surprise. And if this douche was the cop you get tazed.

And if the choice is an arrest or sign the ticket, then they should not require the ticket to get signed. I'm glad I haven't been in that position, CT, RI, MA, NH, never had to sign a ticket.

[DanGarion]

I saw about 5 seconds. Not sure what video you were watching.

Asked to step out of the car, he stepped out of the car. Asked to turn around and turned around. In the confusion he started walking away from the cruiser and didn't have his hands behind his back and was tased after a couple seconds of that.

I saw zero hostility or aggression.
How long is the video? I don't see the confusion, other then that the guy didn't want to comply with the cop. How hard is it to comply with an officer if you are pulled over? They guy was being an ass from the moment he was pulled over to the moment he was tased.

[Atocep]

I was in a position a little while ago where a cop had me get out of my car. I was over by the guard rail and I took two steps towards my car and the cop snapped at me to sit down. The sudden hostility caught me off guard but I did, however I can see someone delaying for a few seconds out of surprise. And if this douche was the cop you get tazed.


See, you know what your intent is but the cop doesn't. He has to consider his own safety in all situations and something as little as you moving toward your car is cause for alarm. The cop doesn't know what you or anyone else is thinking and must maintain control of a situation or he puts his life at risk.

It isn't hard to follow directions. If you can't do what a cop tells you, you're a dick, and you act like its not a big deal then you deserve to get tased. The simple fact is this could have been avoided if the guy would have done what he was told. He refused to sign the ticket, the cop arrested him, he started moving away from the cop towards his car, and the cop did what he felt he needed to do. It is not an easy situation to be in so second guessing him as you replay the video multiple times doesn't do anything.

The guy should have signed the ticket and if he felt it was BS then he has his day in court. That is how you handle the situation. You don't try and pull the shit he did on the side of the round with a cop that is alone. You're asking for trouble.

[Huckleberry]

This thread is embarrassing.

A taser is a potentially lethal weapon. Tasers are supposed to take the place of a firearm in certain situations.

You do not shoot or taser a citizen because he is justifiably upset that you're an asshole. I hope some of you people are railroaded by a cop someday and then tasered because you object. Would serve you right.

[Atocep]

This thread is embarrassing.

A taser is a potentially lethal weapon. Tasers are supposed to take the place of a firearm in certain situations.

You do not shoot or taser a citizen because he is justifiably upset that you're an asshole. I hope some of you people are railroaded by a cop someday and then tasered because you object. Would serve you right.

As someone who served in the army for 9 years and has done more than my fair share of patrols, the second that guy starts moving away you have to make a judgement call. In hindsight you can sit there and say he did the wrong thing, but it was his call and when you look at the situations surrounding it he had reason to be alarmed.

The girl could have easily found herself tased as well when she got out of the SUV. She could have easily grabbed a gun out of the glovebox.

This situation could have been avoided with a second officer there or by the guy doing what he was told. I really wish anyone that thinks this was excessive force could be in a situation like that one time. Everything isn't black and white and you don't get to replay it over and over breaking things down.

[jeff061]

Civilian does not equal army. No issue with this in a war zone or a hostile country. I'm leniant about this stuff in general. But this was just ridiculous.

This was a guy pulled over for speeding, WHO WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS. Just not quickly enough.

[CU Tiger]

My biggest issue iss the kids right hand, it stays in and moving in his pocket.
As an LEO that has to scare you.

The ticket signing doesnt say you agree with it, only that it was issued. And in UT YES you HAVE to sign it. It is actually to protect drivers from having tickets written on them that they never see.


The kid was not confused, he just didnt like what he was told, and was DEFINITELY walking back towards the car. Cop was a bit jumpy and unholstered the Taze too soon imho...but based on that one hand the kid is lucky he didnt take a bullet.

When you are pulled over put both damn hands on the wheel or where they can be seen, and treat the cop with respect. Hell I got a speeding tickt Tuesday and me and the cop laughed about it.
Yes it sucks.
yes Ill pay a lawyer.
But shit happens he is just doing his job.

[Noop]

Excessive.

[jeff061]

Looked to me like he was turning around to walk away from the cruiser, since the cop was flipping out when he got too close.

When you are pulled over put both damn hands on the wheel or where they can be seen, and treat the cop with respect.

I do the same thing. Doesn't have any bearing on this though.

[Atocep]

Civilian does not equal army. No issue with this in a war zone or a hostile country. I'm leniant about this stuff in general. But this was just ridiculous.

This was a guy pulled over for speeding, WHO WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS. Just not quickly enough.


I've done more than just patrols. I've done guard duty at base gates where I've pulled people over. I've had situations where I've chased people on foot after they jumped a fence leaving post. I've seen a person that had been in custody attempt to flee a base in a vehicle. Army life is a lot more than patrols through combat zones.

It comes down to judgement calls in each situation. You can not have training for every possible scenario and you have to act in a way you see fit. The guy was not following orders. He was told to sign the ticket. He was then arrested and started moving toward his car and away from the place where he was being detained while reaching into his pocket. The cop was in a bad situation by being out there alone and in that situation he has to make sure he maintains control AT ALL TIMES. You try and do you're own thing at your own risk.

The fact that this issue is split shows how difficult of a call this would have been to make on the fly. I have the utmost respect for those in law enforcement and those that don't are why situations like this happen. Do what you're told and this doesn't happen. Hell, if the guy had just stayed at the patrol car and not moved back toward his vehicle it wouldn't have happened.

Like I said, I really wish people could experience a situation like that. I can't imagine being in a situation like that alone.

[Atocep]

He was a lazy bum and is proof that cops (at lease some cops) are possibly over paid.


This comment disgusts me. Its sad to see people actually think like this.

[BYU 14]

This thread is embarrassing.

A taser is a potentially lethal weapon. Tasers are supposed to take the place of a firearm in certain situations.

You do not shoot or taser a citizen because he is justifiably upset that you're an asshole. I hope some of you people are railroaded by a cop someday and then tasered because you object. Would serve you right.


What's embarrassing is that some don't recognize that Police are human like everyone else and have to make dozens of split second decisions over the course of an average year on the job that have potential life or death consequences to themselves or innocent civilians they are trying to protect.

Or you would rather have Policeman show excessive restraint, so that if there is a potential threat to their safety it is too late to do anything but take a bullet? It's a tough job and there are times they over react or get it wrong. How many people do you know that will never make an error in judgement under the stress Cops face day in and day out.

This will be reviewed and if it is deemed he did react rashly, he will be counseled or disciplined. The former I would think is acceptable, the latter not at all.

And I can promise you, I will never be tasered, no matter how much I thought the Cop was being a dick......it's called the art of communicating.

[BYU 14]

This comment disgusts me. Its sad to see people actually think like this.

+1

[Front Office Midget]

Because I spend so much of my time with anarchists who say "Never talk to the police" and are generally anti-cop at all times, it's very interesting to come here and see various defenses of the cops.

It makes me nervous that you can defend anything with "She may have had a weapon" or something. Under that thought, what's to stop a cop from using a taser on me if I walk by a cop and have my hands in my pocket? The possibility of that logic scares me.

I feel like civilians deserve the benefit of the doubt, not cops.

EDIT: And "Always comply with the cops, you can defend it in court." shows a LOT of faith in the system, which I don't think is justified whatsoever.

[BYU 14]

Because I spend so much of my time with anarchists who say "Never talk to the police" and are generally anti-cop at all times, it's very interesting to come here and see various defenses of the cops.

It makes me nervous that you can defend anything with "She may have had a weapon" or something. Under that thought, what's to stop a cop from using a taser on me if I walk by a cop and have my hands in my pocket? The possibility of that logic scares me.

I feel like civilians deserve the benefit of the doubt, not cops.

They get the benefit of a doubt, just don't act suspicious and walk away when you have been arrested. He could have waited a bit longer to use force, but again, you are talking about a matter of 3-4 steps and that is enough time to pull a gun if he had one.

The logic I wonder about is why you would possibly worry about being tased for merely walking by a Cop with your hands in your pockets...seems paranoid.

[jeff061]

I don't feel like watching it again, but I didn't know he was being arrested until after he was tased and the cop had the cuffs out. At that point I thought it had something to do with the altercation, not the signed ticket.

I may have missed something though.

[Drake]

It's been my experience that taking advice from anarchists on how to deal with authority figures usually doesn't work out well.

[Dutch]

Anarchist advice - "Well, see, what you gotta do, dude...is make that authority tough guy show you the speed zone sign. No way they will want to drive you back there, see...so they gotta let you off. And if they don't just ask them repeatedly what the fuck is wrong. That usually gets the copper to calm down and rethink his life. Then you're home free. But if that doesn't work, bust out the whiny, "Why, why, why?" routine. Slays 'em everytime, dude. And if that don't work, and they want to arrest your ass, just walk away man. Get the fuck back in your car and drive the fuck off. What the fuck can they do about that?"

Asshole cop advice - "Seriously, if some asshole don't follow your instructions--taze their ass."

YouTube and forum community - This is a great video and debate. Win-win. :)

[Drake]

I would like to state publicly once again that I have no doubt I would be an irresponsible taser user if I was ever issued one as part of my job duties.

Then again, I work with a campus full of college students, most of whom are just really *begging* to be tased for something.

[CU Tiger]

Because I spend so much of my time with anarchists who say "Never talk to the police" and are generally anti-cop at all times, it's very interesting to come here and see various defenses of the cops.

It makes me nervous that you can defend anything with "She may have had a weapon" or something. Under that thought, what's to stop a cop from using a taser on me if I walk by a cop and have my hands in my pocket? The possibility of that logic scares me.

I feel like civilians deserve the benefit of the doubt, not cops.

EDIT: And "Always comply with the cops, you can defend it in court." shows a LOT of faith in the system, which I don't think is justified whatsoever.

Civilians absolutely egt the benefit of teh doubt until they break the law. Once they break the law, then suspicion is justified as to what other laws they have broken.
This guy had already sped (I undertsnad its not a capital offense and we all do it, but it is a violation of the law) and then resisted arrest by refusing to sign the ticket. Furtehr he kept his hand in his damn pocket and began walking away. Let me assure you in the time that he turned and walked I could have cleared and emptied a clip into this cop. So yes he does have to react quickly.


One other thing I think is over looked, LEOs are jaded by the nature of their job. By definition they speend the majority of their time dealing with the drudge of society, the peoplee that do carry and will harm them. Based on this they learn the danger of even mundane situations and assume the worst. Had the kid treated the offficer with respect initially and at least acted rationally the LEO would have been much more at ease.


Again I will reitterate I think the cop was hasty to draw his taser, but I do not fault his actions.

For all the people heere who think this man should be atreed and feathered, how many have ever had a gun pulled on them? Id like to know how you reacted.

[jeff061]

I'd react poorly. That's why I'm not a cop and they are. I kind of hope they deal with things better.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Ok, let's set the record straight since none of you got this the first time around when I mentioned it. The law does NOT require you to sign a citation. Refusing to sign a citation is NOT grounds for arrest. Refusing to sign a ticket is not "resisting an arrest." There is nothing wrong or illegal in refusing to sign the ticket.

Thus, there is no justification for asking the guy to get out of the car in the first place. The cop did it because he didn't like his attitude. In asking him to get out of the car, the cop himself ELEVATED the threat. The guy was no threat sitting in his car. If he had left him in the car (which he should have since he did nothing wrong by stating his opinion on the ticket and refusing to sign it), there would have been no threat and no need for using the taser. The cop simply could have gotten back in his car and they both could have driven off.

Face it, the cop was an ass. He tried to be tough and then got scared and used the taser. A complete joke and completely unprofessional. He should be canned.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I don't feel like watching it again, but I didn't know he was being arrested until after he was tased and the cop had the cuffs out. At that point I thought it had something to do with the altercation, not the signed ticket.

I may have missed something though.

No you didn't miss anything. The whole incident was triggered by the cop reacting to the guy not signing the ticket, which the driver was well within his rights to do.

[sabotai]

Ok, let's set the record straight since none of you got this the first time around when I mentioned it. The law does NOT require you to sign a citation. Refusing to sign a citation is NOT grounds for arrest. Refusing to sign a ticket is not "resisting an arrest." There is nothing wrong or illegal in refusing to sign the ticket.

Thus, there is no justification for asking the guy to get out of the car in the first place.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695230005,00.html

"If you sign a citation, it's not admitting guilt by any means. It just says you'll promise to appear in court," he said. "If someone refuses to sign the citation, they're refusing to appear in court."

At that point, the arresting officer has the option of taking the driver into custody and to a hearing before the local magistrate, Roden said.

Salt Lake civil rights attorney Brian Barnard agreed police do have the right to arrest a driver who does not sign a speeding ticket.


This attorney goes on to say that tasering the guy was unjustified, but he agrees that the cop had a right to arrest him under Utah law.

[MJ4H]

I give the benefit of the doubt to the police officer when the citizen is not doing exactly as he is told. Being a police officer is dangerous and it only takes one time of not forcing the issue in these cases for some freak to pull out a gun and shoot the officer. If it is determined that he used excessive force here, I belive the rules should be amended so that what is in the video is the correct procedure. Moral of the story from my perspective: cop tells you to do something, do it and shut the fuck up. These people risk their lives on a daily basis to protect us.

[molson]

Refusing to sign a citation is NOT grounds for arrest.

Well, not in and of itself, but it creates a practical grounds to arrest for ANY offense, even where there's no possibility of jail time.

You're not trying to say that you can beat a speeding ticket just by refusing to sign, right?

Exercising your "right" not to sign a traffic ticket is probably the stupidiest right one can exercise, and you don't do it unless you're being a jackass. You're still charged with the crime, you're just refusing to participate in the legal process. The only choice for the officer then is to arrest you.

[Front Office Midget]

Moral of the story from my perspective: cop tells you to do something, do it and shut the fuck up. These people risk their lives on a daily basis to protect us.

Definitely where my perspective will differ than a lot of yours. I don't like the idea of anybody having any sort of authority where you simply have to listen to them and shut the fuck up.

I associate police more with police brutality than protecting us on a daily basis; for that reason, we shouldn't just listen to them regardless.

I think someone's perception of this event is definitely influenced by one's perception of authority, specifically police, so we each come with certain predispositions and attitudes that view this event from different contexts. But again, because of my eeriness of the control and influence that police can exert over us, I'm really bothered by the idea of "Do it and shut the fuck up."

If the man had a heart condition and would have been seriously injured or killed in this situation, would you still be like "He got what he had coming by resisting" ? The fact that the cop threatened the man's life because the cop views EVERYONE as a potential threat is what scares me.

[MJ4H]

I associate police more with police brutality than protecting us on a daily basis

This is unfortunate and is the exact reason that police brutality is so much more destructive to society in general than it may first appear to be.

[kiwiLB57]

Cop was an asshat. Driver was an asshat. You get two asshats together and you better have a asshat-rack or someone gets tasered.

kiwiLB57.

[MizzouRah]

I don't think he did, but I'm not sure there is a correct answer here.

I will say this, if a cop pulls out his taser on me, I'm listening real good at what he wants me to do.

[watravaler]

The cop is an asshole, the guy was a moron. It's the way of the world...there needs to be some punishment for the cop, however, the tasering was completely uncalled for/undeserved...definite power trip...

A normal police tazer could(eventually will, if it hasn't happened already) kill someone with minor heart problems like myself, and while I think they are beneficial in plenty of situations, this was ABSOLUTELY not one of them. I hope both individuals get what is coming to them...and don't worry, assholes and morons usually do...

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Well, not in and of itself, but it creates a practical grounds to arrest for ANY offense, even where there's no possibility of jail time.

You're not trying to say that you can beat a speeding ticket just by refusing to sign, right?

Exercising your "right" not to sign a traffic ticket is probably the stupidiest right one can exercise, and you don't do it unless you're being a jackass. You're still charged with the crime, you're just refusing to participate in the legal process. The only choice for the officer then is to arrest you.

No, I am not saying you can a beat a speeding ticket by not signing. In fact, you won't. I'm just saying not signing a ticket really isn't grounds for arresting a guy. You say the officer has no choice. And that's wrong. He doesn't have to arrest him for not signing. The guy will still get the ticket. In fact, most people who sign don't show up for court anyways. The cop makes much ado about nothing, and you can clearly see in the video the cop was motivated by the driver not taking his medicine nicely. God help us if the standard protocol for dealing with cops is shut the fuck up and do what he says. And I will add once again, it's the cop original asshatery of asking the guy to get out of the car when he didn't have to that elevates the situation to where it went.

By the way does anybody notice how terrible the cop's own safety procedures were in this case anyways. He asks the guy to get out of the car, and then immediately turns his back to the guy to put his pad on the hood of the car. He actually turns his back to the guy and then gets scared when he turns around and the guy is right behind him. The proper procedure was to either first go back to the car with his pad, and then return and ask the guy to get out of the car, keeping his eye on him at all times; or drop his pad and ask the guy to get out immediately. Then you ask the guy to turn around and you put the cuffs on him. . You don't ask the guy to get out and then turn around and walk away. The cop didn't even following his own damn protocol to begin with, and it once again elevated the threat he sensed. Asshat.

[Marc Vaughan]

Got authority issues much?

I actually agree with the original statement - you should NEVER be forced to sign something.

For instance - what if the kid is illiterate, he'd have no idea what he's signing or the consequences of it ... yet he'd be bound by it.

Surely thats the reason why people have lawyers and suchlike to help them with such things when they might not understand the implications of them? (if you doubt that your average 'Joe' might not understand the implications - look at the debate in this thread regarding peoples rights in the circumstances of the video, this in itself to me shows that you should definitely have the right NOT to sign something as chances are you wouldn't understand it).

[Marc Vaughan]

Your not forced to sign, refuse and get arrested...freedom of choice, the guy chose to be an ass, ass got tasered. Where is the accountability when you do something wrong? Sign the ticket, shut the fuck up and be on your way.

Thats presuming he understood what he was signing and what it implied - I wouldn't understand that automatically myself without someone explaining it to me (although admittedly I hope I would be polite and courteous while asking for an explanation of what it meant).

[Grammaticus]

As someone who served in the army for 9 years and has done more than my fair share of patrols, the second that guy starts moving away you have to make a judgement call. In hindsight you can sit there and say he did the wrong thing, but it was his call and when you look at the situations surrounding it he had reason to be alarmed.

The girl could have easily found herself tased as well when she got out of the SUV. She could have easily grabbed a gun out of the glovebox.

This situation could have been avoided with a second officer there or by the guy doing what he was told. I really wish anyone that thinks this was excessive force could be in a situation like that one time. Everything isn't black and white and you don't get to replay it over and over breaking things down.

Okay, a couple of things here don't line up. The cop yells at the guy to TURN AROUND, not to stop, not to put your hand were I can see them, just TURN AROUND. If he has time to tell him to TURN AROUND, but does not say anything about moving or his hands, etc. then he must not think that slow backup or hands are as much of an issue.

I have to agree with other comments, the cop himself elevated the situation by not having competent communication skills for the job. That particular police officer should probably not be making decisions on when to use force.

If you think the actions the driver took warrant force, what if the cop had a firearm instead of a tazer? I think the use of tazers lowers the threshold for cops to use force. This is an instance where a low skilled officer used the tazer because it was easier than controlling the situation.

To comments people made about cops being in danger, etc. If you don't want to be in danger or can't take the risks, find a different line of work. There are lots of jobs that pay a similar wage and also only require a high school education or equivalent.

Personally I have served in the U.S. ARMY and simply assumed that if I was called to serve in harms way, it was no excuse for poor behavior or a reason to complain about the wage, which was extremely lower than what I have been able to make in the private sector.

This comment disgusts me. Its sad to see people actually think like this.

I don't think you entirely understood the comment. I said that it was proof that SOME cops are POSSIBLY over paid. It is often a complaint that cops, teachers and other public service roles are under paid. I believe that all good cops and all good teachers are likely under paid. But all bad cops and all bad teachers are severely over paid. I liken this cop to poor performance and indicate that he is likely over paid. It's not a blanket statement that all cops are over paid.

I will say that if you are voluntarily taking a job in which you know the salary and salary history for the field, don't complain that you are under paid. Find another job that pays you what you are worth.

I don’t know why that comment disgusts you. If no qualified applicants were available at the current salary, guess what? The salary offered would go up.

[st.cronin]

If you think the actions the driver took warrant force, what if the cop had a firearm instead of a tazer?


I don't know what my opinion of the event in question is, but this is not really a fair argument - tazers and firearms are not the same thing. What if he had a water pistol? What if he had a rabid badger in the back of his cruiser? What if he had magical powers, and could turn the man into a petunia?

I do understand what you're trying to say, that the officer may have had other options available - but I believe the question is whether, in this instance, using a tazer is excessive force, not whether, in this instance, using any force at all is excessive force.

[DanGarion]

Ok, let's set the record straight since none of you got this the first time around when I mentioned it. The law does NOT require you to sign a citation. Refusing to sign a citation is NOT grounds for arrest. Refusing to sign a ticket is not "resisting an arrest." There is nothing wrong or illegal in refusing to sign the ticket.

Thus, there is no justification for asking the guy to get out of the car in the first place. The cop did it because he didn't like his attitude. In asking him to get out of the car, the cop himself ELEVATED the threat. The guy was no threat sitting in his car. If he had left him in the car (which he should have since he did nothing wrong by stating his opinion on the ticket and refusing to sign it), there would have been no threat and no need for using the taser. The cop simply could have gotten back in his car and they both could have driven off.

Face it, the cop was an ass. He tried to be tough and then got scared and used the taser. A complete joke and completely unprofessional. He should be canned.

So you live in Utah and know that this is in fact the law there?

[DanGarion]

Ok, let's set the record straight since none of you got this the first time around when I mentioned it. The law does NOT require you to sign a citation. Refusing to sign a citation is NOT grounds for arrest. Refusing to sign a ticket is not "resisting an arrest." There is nothing wrong or illegal in refusing to sign the ticket.

Thus, there is no justification for asking the guy to get out of the car in the first place. The cop did it because he didn't like his attitude. In asking him to get out of the car, the cop himself ELEVATED the threat. The guy was no threat sitting in his car. If he had left him in the car (which he should have since he did nothing wrong by stating his opinion on the ticket and refusing to sign it), there would have been no threat and no need for using the taser. The cop simply could have gotten back in his car and they both could have driven off.

Face it, the cop was an ass. He tried to be tough and then got scared and used the taser. A complete joke and completely unprofessional. He should be canned.

So you live in Utah and know that this is in fact the law there?

[DanGarion]

I associate police more with police brutality than protecting us on a daily basis; for that reason, we shouldn't just listen to them regardless.


Why is this? Have you broken the law a number of times throughout your life?

[DanGarion]

I don't know what my opinion of the event in question is, but this is not really a fair argument - tazers and firearms are not the same thing. What if he had a water pistol? What if he had a rabid badger in the back of his cruiser? What if he had magical powers, and could turn the man into a petunia?

I do understand what you're trying to say, that the officer may have had other options available - but I believe the question is whether, in this instance, using a tazer is excessive force, not whether, in this instance, using any force at all is excessive force.

Maybe he should of just beat the guy with his nightstick...

[BishopMVP]

The driver was clearly being an asshat and I'm not surprised in the least how it turned out. At the same time, because of the authority he has, the cop has to be smarter than that. Firstly, I don't know Utah's laws and standards, but I've been pulled over at least 5 times for speeding here in Massachusetts and have never been asked to sign the ticket. Even if the officer has the right to arrest him for that, he's needlessly being a dick and escalating the situation, which he compounds by communicating poorly and turning his back to the suspect. If the officer had made the decision to arrest the driver, he should have stated so when telling him to get out of the car, and definitely before tasing the driver. Also, as the driver points out (in a needlessly dickish manner) the officer also failed to read him his rights, which shows either the patrolman doesn't know how to properly do his job or was rattled from a relatively minor incident.

They have the state police cadet trainees patrol UMass, so I've dealt with enough inexperienced power-tripping cops to know you act respectful and keep your hands in view, but this officer needs to be punished if not demoted until he learns to control his emotions and go about things by the proper procedure.

[molson]

I actually agree with the original statement - you should NEVER be forced to sign something.

For instance - what if the kid is illiterate, he'd have no idea what he's signing or the consequences of it ... yet he'd be bound by it.



Is there a better way? A signature is merely an acknowledgement that the traffic stop happened, and a promise to either appear in court or pay the ticket. Many times, cops really give people a break on misdemeanors that they could arrest people before, and instead they give them the OPTION to the sign a citation and appear at court at the arriagnment date.

The signature on a citation, and then sending them on their way is really a good aspect of our society, rather than a bad one.

[jeff061]

Is there a better way? A signature is merely an acknowledgement that the traffic stop happened, and a promise to either appear in court or pay the ticket. Not sure how you expect someone to know that off the top of their head when a ticket is being crammed in their face with a pen. Most states don't require it. Doesn't keep them from suspending your license if you don't get it taken care of.

[molson]

This is unfortunate and is the exact reason that police brutality is so much more destructive to society in general than it may first appear to be.

Agreed 1000% and it goes way beyond just brutality but corruption, racial profiling, traffic stop rapes, whatever.

Those things are incredibly, incredibly rare, and their effect on our society goes way beyond the individual victims.

So it makes me sad to see people have that blanket view of cops, but even more than that, it makes me angry at the bad apples in law enforcement that make it more difficult for everyone.

I work with officers every day and am really inspired by these people - for 99% (and actually 100% of the ones I know), every waking moment of their worklife is dedicated to trying to making the community better. "Better", not just "Safer", and a cop's job goes way beyond arresting bad guys off the streets. How many cop bashers can say that about their own jobs?

[molson]

Not sure how you expect someone to know that off the top of their head when a ticket is being crammed in their face with a pen. Most states don't require it. Doesn't keep them from suspending your license if you don't get it taken care of.

Wasn't that you that had that nightmare with MA State Police about your license? That was a disaster and an incredibly unjust law.

I guess I find it hard for a state to levy a default judgement for a speeding ticket without some acknolwedgement by the driver that they knew about their rights to contest it. (per their signature). On a misdemeanor, we're talking a bench warrant if you don't show up for an arraignment when you've signed a citatio. Again, I'm not comfortable with the prospect of bench warrants being issued when we don't have a signature acknowledging someone's promise (and awareness) to be at court.

Our cops are extremely curteous about explaining this to people they pull over, and I've never heard of an issue of someone refusing to sign a citation.

All that being said, I don't think the officer in the video is cut out for law enforcement and he should be let go. But normal, polite people tend not to get tazed even by incompetent officers? So why not just shut the fuck up unless you know who you're dealing with? Do people think they're going to change the cops views on things? You have absolutely nothing to gain by being a jackass, even if your inter-atheist thinks it would be cool or whatever.

[jeff061]

And I still don't have my license because my lawyer keeps delaying the court date for various reasons and the DMV won't give me my license back until the court decides something. Though I'm trying to get to the DMV with my lawyer today. However, even throughout my ordeal, I didn't have to sign anything.

[molson]

And I still don't have my license because my lawyer keeps delaying the court date for various reasons and the DMV won't give me my license back until the court decides something. Though I'm trying to get to the DMV with my lawyer today. However, even throughout my ordeal, I didn't have to sign anything.

What happened with your license is a disgrace but mostly a legislative issue (I think). And again, I can't believe that MA can suspend your DL license WITHOUT you signing something. But I see your point.

[sabotai]

Also, as the driver points out (in a needlessly dickish manner) the officer also failed to read him his rights, which shows either the patrolman doesn't know how to properly do his job or was rattled from a relatively minor incident.

Cops only need to read someone thier rights if they are arresting someone and plan to question/interrogate them. It's not an automatic thing they do everytime they arrest someone.

[Marc Vaughan]

Is there a better way? A signature is merely an acknowledgement that the traffic stop happened, and a promise to either appear in court or pay the ticket. Many times, cops really give people a break on misdemeanors that they could arrest people before, and instead they give them the OPTION to the sign a citation and appear at court at the arriagnment date.

The signature on a citation, and then sending them on their way is really a good aspect of our society, rather than a bad one.

If you 'know' what it is that you're signing then I agree thats fine - however if you don't then I can see why you'd refuse to do so ...

In England when I was stopped I never had to sign for such a thing, you get issued a ticket and they mail you a confirmation - you either turn up for your day in court or you don't ... to be honest I don't see why a signature is required in such circumstances, if it'd been me in the kids place I'd have been worried that I'd be signing something admitting guilt and would have wanted an explanation of what everything meant.

[Marc Vaughan]

I guess I find it hard for a state to levy a default judgement for a speeding ticket without some acknolwedgement by the driver that they knew about their rights to contest it. (per their signature). On a misdemeanor, we're talking a bench warrant if you don't show up for an arraignment when you've signed a citatio. Again, I'm not comfortable with the prospect of bench warrants being issued when we don't have a signature acknowledging someone's promise (and awareness) to be at court.

One thing I've noticed here if that I haven't come across a 'speeding camera' at all - in England we have automated cameras which record speeds, take a photo of your car licence plate and the first you know that you've been done for speeding is a letter in the post - no signatures required and you know they've proof via. the photo.

This side of things is publicly unpopular (no one likes getting caught for speeding ;) ) method - but pain free really and brings in a lot of revenue for the police force/goverment.

(no real reason for mentioning this apart from showing the difference in approach between the cultures and why it surprised me they'd ask for a signature to acknowledge the person being pulled over)

[Calis]

I'm going in with the camp of they're both asshats and both dealt very poorly with the situation. The kid was being a dick about it, and the cop wasn't being overly helpful, but with the kid yelling and his girlfriend running around the whole thing had to be pretty alarming for the cop, and yeah I think the hand in the pocket thing was strange all around. I don't feel like he was way over the line by tasering, but I felt like the situation leading up to that he didn't handle well and maybe that should be looked at. It also didn't sound well when he was explaining how the guy got tasered to the cop that showed up in almost a bragging way, looks like he was just waiting for a chance to tase the crap out of someone.

So neither were in the clear, but if I'm in that situation I shut my mouth and I deal with it later, I'm not sure what you think you gain by confronting them like that right there? Did he think the cop would just change his mind and leave?

[CU Tiger]

Ok a lil background the UT signature was added ~5 years ago (when I lived in UT and it was in the papers a BUNCH)

A small community outisde SLC had a renegade Chief that was eventually unseated, but during his tyranical reign he wwas so strict on hi offcier's and their revenue and ticket count quotas that several were "writing" tickets on cars without pulling them over.

Now having received a UT speeding ticket the signature is likee 22 sentences and pretty vanilla. (IIRC) "I affirm that I have been issued this citation by the officer listed above at the date, time, and location listed above. I understand that I must either pay the fine indicated or appear at my hearing on the date,time and location listed above."


Again the cop could havee handled a lot of this better but the kid is a bitch, and should have been bitch slapped. Maybe a tazer to the groin would have learned him better....

[StarBuck]

Bottom line is that you are a complete moron if you get pulled over and don't do exactly what the officer tells you... you can always fight it in court. In the face of a cop just is not the time to be playing constitutional scholar.

EXACTLY.

Just give the cop your license already. He has already pissed the cop off in the first 40 seconds. I have actually gotten off with a warning simply because I was respectful of the officer. The guy was being an asshole and I think the cop was being very respectful of these two idiots. There are good and bad in every profession, and believe me, I know people who have met up with the latter.


And then the guy actually walks away after the cop goes into his defensive stance and says "put your hands behind your head!".

I voted no. I would have tazed him too. Spanky/That'l learn him./Spanky

[Glengoyne]

Well the guy was pretty well a jerk for not doing exactly what the cop said, but there has to be a minumum threshold someone has to cross to justify the use of a taser. I don't think this guy had come anywhere near that point.

The cop completely over reacted. It was clearly unprofessional. Rather than handling the situation in a myriad of other ways, he dropped the guy with a taser. I doubt that is what he was trained to do. I'm fairly certain he wasn't trained to leave an incapacitated individual laying on the side of a freeway, essentially in traffic.

Cop is an asshat. The guy was too, but I don't have the same level of expectation of him.

[StarBuck]

Many think the cop overreacted, but then I'm thinking, what should he have done otherwise? Taken this smacktard on a drive to see the 40 mile speed limit sign we all saw? Like police have nothing better to do.

As someone commented in the youtube thread "He wasn't tased for not signing the ticket, he was tased for not obey a lawful order and attempting to leave when instructed not too. It was either be tased or get into a fight.....good decision by the police officer"

What else should he have done? Those in law enforcement or know about it , perhaps can give some insight?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Many think the cop overreacted, but then I'm thinking, what should he have done otherwise? Taken this smacktard on a drive to see the 40 mile speed limit sign we all saw? Like police have nothing better to do.

As someone commented in the youtube thread "He wasn't tased for not signing the ticket, he was tased for not obey a lawful order and attempting to leave when instructed not too. It was either be tased or get into a fight.....good decision by the police officer"

What else should he have done? Those in law enforcement or know about it , perhaps can give some insight?

As to the first highlighted part, sorry to say but yes the guy was in fact tasered for not signing the ticket. That was the reason he was asked to get out of the car in the first place. No other reason, period. Everything flowed from that. If you don't ask the guy to get out of the car, then none of the rest happens

As for the second highlighted part, let's see:

1. Don't get upset and show how macho you are when the guy doesn't sign the ticket;

2. Don't ask the guy to get out of the car (so the cop wouldn't be in danger or need a taser);

3. After you ask the guy to get out of the car, don't turn your back and then get all scared afterwards;

4. Don't start yelling incomprehensible instructions;

5. Don't resort to the taser so early on.

6. Try talking in a calm but firm voice like a professional instead of like a hysterical loon.

Those are the ones I can only think of right now.

You cop apologists are all acting like he was trying to talk down a junkie who just got cornered in the alley, rather than a guy driving with his wife and kid in broad daylight on a state highway.

[Greyroofoo]

All I can say is that the actual tasering was pretty damn funny

[clintl]

The cop was way out of line. Not a single thing the guy did deserved a tasing. All he was trying to do was explain his position, and cop refused to listen, and escalated the confrontation.

And I find it appalling that there are places in the U.S. where you can get arrested for refusing to sign a traffic ticket. That's just wrong.

[Glengoyne]

Many think the cop overreacted, but then I'm thinking, what should he have done otherwise? ...

I'm thinking he should have done whatever cops did ten years ago before tasers were standard issue. I'm pretty sure that the training at that time didn't call for pumping a pair of slugs into the guy's back, nor rapping him upside the head with a baton. I'm guessing this is where a cop's training to assert their control over any situation should have kicked in.

Just because you have a non-lethal weapon doesn't mean that it should be the first club out of the bag.

[astrosfan64]

He should of zapped the guy a couple of times. The dude was a fucking idiot. I've never had any problem in my life with cops. When I get pulled over, which is VERY rare like 3 times in 17 years. I called them sir and did what they said. They actually were very cool. I was wrong all three times and I only got a ticket once.

Oh well.

[molson]

And I find it appalling that there are places in the U.S. where you can get arrested for refusing to sign a traffic ticket. That's just wrong.

This is a recurring theme here, but no, refusing to sign a traffic ticket is NOT an arrestable crime in any state. When a police officer has the discrection to arrest someone for a crime (as opposed to simply writing them a ticket), they are WAY more likely to choose to arrest when someone doesn't want to sign a ticket, and thus, are refusing to promise to appear in court or otherwise resolve the criminal matter.

I don't get why people get so worked up over the ticket thing. You're only acknowledging that the traffic stop happened and that you promise to deal with it. At the time the officer asks you to do this, he/she is 100% that you are the person that he pulled over. So I no problem with them requiring that you acknowledge that (even though it's technically not a requirement). A driver has zero ligitimate purpose to refuse, other than them generically "fighting the system" with no practical gain to themselves.

[st.cronin]

This is a recurring theme here, but no, refusing to sign a traffic ticket is NOT an arrestable crime in any state. When a police officer has the discrection to arrest someone for a crime (as opposed to simply writing them a ticket), they are WAY more likely to choose to arrest when someone doesn't want to sign a ticket, and thus, are refusing to promise to appear in court or otherwise resolve the criminal matter.

I don't get why people get so worked up over the ticket thing. You're only acknowledging that the traffic stop happened and that you promise to deal with it. At the time the officer asks you to do this, he/she is 100% that you are the person that he pulled over. So I no problem with them requiring that you acknowledge that (even though it's technically not a requirement). A driver has zero ligitimate purpose to refuse, other than them generically "fighting the system" with no practical gain to themselves.

Out of curiosity, what is supposed to happen if somebody refuses to sign the ticket?

[Reyna]

Out of curiosity, what is supposed to happen if somebody refuses to sign the ticket?

UHP spokesman Cameron Roden said if a driver refuses to sign a speeding ticket, the officer who pulled that person over has several options.
"If you sign a citation, it's not admitting guilt by any means. It just says you'll promise to appear in court," he said. "If someone refuses to sign the citation, they're refusing to appear in court." At that point, the arresting officer has the option of taking the driver into custody and to a hearing before the local magistrate, Roden said.
Salt Lake civil rights attorney Brian Barnard agreed police do have the right to arrest a driver who does not sign a speeding ticket.
Refusing to sign a ticket is not a crime under Utah state law. Signing a citation but then failing to show up in court, however, is a class B misdemeanor.
Another option if a driver refuses to sign a ticket is for the officer to "put it in the car in a professional manner and leave it at that," Roden said.
The action an officer takes against drivers refusing to sign speeding tickets is different in every department. In Salt Lake County and some of the state's bigger cities, taking a person into custody for refusing to sign a ticket may not be an option because of jail overcrowding issues, Roden said. Most departments also leave it to the discretion of the arresting officer to evaluate all the circumstances of any given situation.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I don't get why people get so worked up over the ticket thing. You're only acknowledging that the traffic stop happened and that you promise to deal with it.

Which makes me wonder why the cop got so worked up over it. And if what if you don't want to show up in court? Wouldn't signing be the wrong thing to do.

Requiring a signature on a ticket is completely stupid.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Refusing to sign a ticket is not a crime under Utah state law. Signing a citation but then failing to show up in court, however, is a class B misdemeanor.


Seems to me then that perhaps the driver shouldn't be signing the ticket in any event. Who wants to sign, not be able to show up, and then get tagged with an additional misdemeanor? This really is getting stupid, now.

So, let's see, I am well within my rights not to sign the ticket. And in not doing so, I am not committing a crime. On the other hand, if I sign it and don't make it to court, I am committing a crime. Why the hell should anyone be signing the damn thing!? Oh, I know, because if you don't, apparently you can be subject to a random tasering by power hungry, mental midget cop.

Why don't we call this for what it was. The cop didn't like the guy's attitude (a legal attitude to have), decided to get tough, didn't follow any proper or professional safety measures, and then got scared. What a fucktard.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Just because you have a non-lethal weapon doesn't mean that it should be the first club out of the bag.

Unfortunately, as we learn every day all over the world, the taser is not a non-lethal weapon. Which makes many people's apparent nonchalance towards its use that more alarming.

[molson]

Which makes me wonder why the cop got so worked up over it. And if what if you don't want to show up in court? Wouldn't signing be the wrong thing to do.

Requiring a signature on a ticket is completely stupid.

I do agree that this particular cop obviously isn't cut out for law enforcement and should be fired. What I've been responding to is the general cop bashing, and the ticket discussion.

And sure, if you don't want to show up in court (and would prefer to be arrested so you can post bond to assure your apperance), that's your option, and the cop should be professional in respecting that. (as strange a choice as that would be).

And if the cited offense is less than a misdemeanor, than an officer may, depending on the state, not be allowed to arrest you regardless of whether you sign.

[clintl]

This is a recurring theme here, but no, refusing to sign a traffic ticket is NOT an arrestable crime in any state. When a police officer has the discrection to arrest someone for a crime (as opposed to simply writing them a ticket), they are WAY more likely to choose to arrest when someone doesn't want to sign a ticket, and thus, are refusing to promise to appear in court or otherwise resolve the criminal matter.



If the officer has the discretion to arrest someone for refusing to sign a ticket, then you can get arrested for it, whether it's technically a "crime" or not. I'm saying that it's appalling that there's anywhere in the U.S. where officers have the discretion to arrest someone for refusing to sign a ticket.

I don't disagree that refusing to sign a ticket is a stupid thing to do. It's not something that merits being escalated like this officer did.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Listen to the police officer, he has all the power in that situation. Gosh if he would have just signed the citation none of this would even be a issue. Why do people think they are argue with them, haven't they ever watched COPS before because it's not going to end in a good way.

[Desnudo]

I voted Yes, but barely. That doesn't change the fact that the guy was an oblivious fool. Sign the ticket and be on your way, instead of putting your family at risk over a small sum of money.

[Reyna]

It is not excessive force. At least not where I 'm from. When a law enforcement officer tells you to put your hands behind your back and you walk away from him you are refusing a direct order or lawful command.

There is something called Use of Force Continuum.[it's in Wiki].
It lets officers know what type of force can be applied to different situations.
An officer responds to the subjects actions. In this case the subject showed Active Resistance [level 4] by walking away from the officer. "The subject made physically evasive moves to defeat the officers attempt at control."ie-he walked away after being given an order.
The officer can now respond with level 4 , which is intermediate weapons, to control the subject. ie-electronic control device.

Personally, I think the officer could have explained to the guy that if he refused to sign he could be arrested per state law.

Use COMMON SENSE when dealing with any law enforcement officer.

Just watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[Glengoyne]

... In this case the subject showed Active Resistance [level 4] by walking away from the officer. "The subject made physically evasive moves to defeat the officers attempt at control."ie-he walked away after being given an order.
...

I think this claim along side the video would stretch an officer's credibility in front of a jury.

[Chief Rum]

It is not excessive force. At least not where I 'm from. When a law enforcement officer tells you to put your hands behind your back and you walk away from him you are refusing a direct order or lawful command.

There is something called Use of Force Continuum.[it's in Wiki].
It lets officers know what type of force can be applied to different situations.
An officer responds to the subjects actions. In this case the subject showed Active Resistance [level 4] by walking away from the officer. "The subject made physically evasive moves to defeat the officers attempt at control."ie-he walked away after being given an order.
The officer can now respond with level 4 , which is intermediate weapons, to control the subject. ie-electronic control device.

Personally, I think the officer could have explained to the guy that if he refused to sign he could be arrested per state law.

Use COMMON SENSE when dealing with any law enforcement officer.

Just watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

I am thinking COMMON SENSE by either side of this equation would have stopped this from happening. The officer is as guilty with respect to his reactions as the gumbo he pulled over is.

[Butter]

Most people's blind obedience to authority these days is a lot scarier than some argumentative yokel getting buzzed for about 10 seconds.

[TroyF]

I fall on both sides of this thing.

The cop acted excessively and should lose his job. I think he was too quick to use force. I understand I'm not in his shoes. I'm simply making a judgement call of my own and saying I think the officer took it too far.

On the other hand, I have NO problem with the arresting of someone if they refuse to sign a ticket. Shut the hell up, sign your ticket and go to court. Seriously, don't be a douche. We've all got nailed at some point and we've all been pulled over "when the other guy was doing the same thing." Act like an F'n adult.

VFP, do you really think a warrant wouldn't be issued for you if you didn't appear in court because you didn't sign the ticket? I know what point you are trying to make, but that seriously made my head hurt. You aren't in anymore trouble than you would already be by signing the ticket. If anything, you'll be in MORE trouble because you showed your disregard for the law by not signing the ticket and then missing a cour appearance.

I think my last ticket was about 7 years ago. 53 in a 45 at 4AM in the morning. On a deserted road. I was angered at first, but dealt with it. I put my hands on the wheel, made no sudden movemets, signed my ticket and went to court. It was dropped to obstruction of the window or some stupid BS and after a $78 fine I was done. The entire thing caused me about 2.3 minutes of frustration. At the end of the day, I did break the law. I can rationalize all the other crap however I want.

I fail to see how even in the best circumstance, not signing the ticket and acting like an idiot would have helped me more than acting like an adult.

Again, this cop acted quickly and should pay the price for that. The drive is also a first class moron who should have handled the situation a lot better than he did.

[molson]

Most people's blind obedience to authority these days is a lot scarier than some argumentative yokel getting buzzed for about 10 seconds.

There's nothing wrong with "blind obedience" when you have nothing at stake and nothing to gain. It's a hell of a lot smarter than "blind resistance".

Nobody has yet been able to post what exactly you gain by not signing a ticket, rather than the generic, "They shouldn't require it!!!"

[Butter]

There's nothing wrong with "blind obedience" when you have nothing at stake and nothing to gain. It's a hell of a lot smarter than "blind resistance".

I think you think I'm trying to argue that this guy did not deserve to get tasered. What I'm saying has precious little to do with this case, and everything to do with those who have said in essence "if you don't obey law enforcement, you deserve what's coming to you".

Fuck THAT.

[molson]

I think you think I'm trying to argue that this guy did not deserve to get tasered. What I'm saying has precious little to do with this case, and everything to do with those who have said in essence "if you don't obey law enforcement, you deserve what's coming to you".

Fuck THAT.

When you put it like that, sure, I agree. But there's an element of common sense/self-preservation here.

If someone walks in a bad neighborhood late at night with a wad of cash, they don't DESERVE to be mugged and beaten, but it was still a pretty stupid thing to do.

Resistance to law enforcement has its place, and at some level, is/was necessary at various times in our history. But refusing to sign a traffic ticket is not the time to fight that battle. You have nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. And there's plenty of other individual interactions with law enforcement agents one might have that, even if the officer's actions are unjust, it's not particularly helpful to try to change the world or whatever and take him on one-on-one right then and there. Almost always, the smarter thing to do is to sumit, and then maybe deal with the injustice later.

Like imagine if you're in some South American country and you have a run-in with the police. I don't care how "unjust" their actions are, you're completely retarded if you don't go along with whatever they want you to do.

[Izulde]

Tasers aren't exactly non-lethal.

In my area, back about a year or two ago, a kid got tased and he died. Ugly situtation, too, as it looked suspiciously like racial profiling. Kid didn't do anything to justify being tased, other than not have a normal mind (can't remember if it's that he was mentally ill or had some type of mental retardation.)

That I said, I'd say yeah it was excessive, but at the same time, it was karma to the dude for acting like an ass.

[BishopMVP]

It is not excessive force. At least not where I 'm from. When a law enforcement officer tells you to put your hands behind your back and you walk away from him you are refusing a direct order or lawful command.Yes, you're refusing a direct order, you're not necessarily refusing a lawful command. Because of the ass-backwards way they police off-campus parties and large gatherings, I have known literally dozens of people around here who have been charged with resisting arrest (myself included) and 95% of those have been thrown out in court. No, it doesn't make much sense to argue with police officers, but that doesn't mean they're right or acting legally, and in my experience they are quite often acting in a manner that will not hold up in a court.

[BishopMVP]

But refusing to sign a traffic ticket is not the time to fight that battle. You have nothing to gain, and a lot to lose.I don't think Butter was trying to argue this specific case. In fact, I don't see how anyone could be defending either person's actions in the video.

[Butter]

I don't think Butter was trying to argue this specific case. In fact, I don't see how anyone could be defending either person's actions in the video.


No, in this case both people seem to be pretty idiotic. I'm commenting more on the underlying "debate" in general.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I haven't even watched the video, but I think this is a great thread to mention that I've been pulled over for being a potential murder suspect. I've also been pulled over because the cops thought that I had stolen my own car. In the stolen car instance, the cops actually sat in their car while I was standing next to them. I should've pulled a taser on those bitches.

POWER TO THE PUMPY!

[Desnudo]

In fact, I don't see how anyone could be defending either person's actions in the video.

That sums it up in one sentence. You could title that Youtube video "when idiots collide."

[Cringer]

Just watched the video for the first time.

The guy got what he deserved, a tazering. Nothing beats watching a good tazering. The guy was an ass from the begining though, even taking a while to produce his info for the cop.

The cop needs to get something too though. Not fired though, a slap on the wrist (suspended w/o pay for a couple weeks)and some extra "training" would be good for me. He was plain sloppy first off. Not sure what they train cops in Utah but I haven't seen a cop approach a vehicle that quickly and without any concerns for safety in a long time. As someone else pointed out, he also turned his back on the guy after having him get out. All that says to me he couldn't have been too concerned or just isn't very bright. He was too quick with the tazer for me too. He pulled it out right after putting down his stuff.

[Fighter of Foo]

Resistance to law enforcement has its place, and at some level, is/was necessary at various times in our history. But refusing to sign a traffic ticket is not the time to fight that battle. You have nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. And there's plenty of other individual interactions with law enforcement agents one might have that, even if the officer's actions are unjust, it's not particularly helpful to try to change the world or whatever and take him on one-on-one right then and there. Almost always, the smarter thing to do is to sumit, and then maybe deal with the injustice later.

In other words, do as you're told and STFU.

[Fighter of Foo]

The guy got what he deserved, a tazering. Nothing beats watching a good tazering. The guy was an ass from the begining though, even taking a while to produce his info for the cop.



Let's taze you just for fun and we can all watch. Let us know how it feels.

[Cringer]

Let's taze you just for fun and we can all watch. Let us know how it feels.

I would do it. Only the once most likely, but I would do it.

[Tigercat]

The guy should have never been asked out of his car. The officer should have explained that signing a ticket is not an admission of guilt and that he can have his day in court. That is the type of action this police officer is being paid for.

The officer let the situation get out of control, which lead to an unnecessary use of force for the original situation.

I have personally known lots of police officers in my life, and I believe they would have all handled this situation better. A guy that can't handle a situation like this should not carry a firearm or even a taser.

[Pumpy Tudors]

i just watched the video and man that shit is so fake! u can clrly see the crash mat that the dude lands on after he get tased. i think this a skit from a mexican comedy show or some shit.

three thumbs down on that bullshit

[Subby]

i just watched the video and man that shit is so fake! u can clrly see the crash mat that the dude lands on after he get tased. i think this a skit from a mexican comedy show or some shit.

three thumbs down on that bullshit
you always come through in the clutch

[CU Tiger]

BTW I got Pumpy beat, I was pulled over (less than.5miles from home) for crossing the yellow line on a road that didnt have a yellow line. Then the genius gave me a destruction of property ticket while writing this ticket for running over a bush when I pulled off the road. The bush was on MY PROPERTY....anyway when it went to court it was Me 2 Mental Giant 0

[BishopMVP]

BTW I got Pumpy beat, I was pulled over (less than.5miles from home) for crossing the yellow line on a road that didnt have a yellow line. Then the genius gave me a destruction of property ticket while writing this ticket for running over a bush when I pulled off the road. The bush was on MY PROPERTY....anyway when it went to court it was Me 2 Mental Giant 0When I was arrested and charged with resisting arrest (it was dark, and a plainclothes officer who allegedly showed his badge 20 yards away while shining a flashlight at me grabbed me from behind and twisted the shoulder I had seperated 2 days earlier) I asked them at the station why they were arresting me in the first place. Their answer? Underage drinking. I was 22.

[JPhillips]

When I lived in Boston several years back my wife got severely dehydrated and needed to be taken to a hospital. I didn't have a clear idea where the hospital was, but I favored action to inaction, so we took off in the car. After driving around a bit I finally found what I thought was the hospital and pulled in. It turned out not to be a hospital, but instead a retirement home.

At about the point where I realized I wasn't at the hospital a police car lit up and pulled in behind me. When I turned to see the officer there was a gun pointed at my head. Again, I hadn't done anything but drive around and I hadn't said a word to the officer.

When the guy realized I really was looking for a hospital he was fairly nice, but his overreaction could have easily led to a tragic accident. Luckily I was able to keep my head while my wife was crying and the cop was pointing a gun at me.

[BishopMVP]

When I lived in Boston several years back my wife got severely dehydrated and needed to be taken to a hospital. I didn't have a clear idea where the hospital was, but I favored action to inaction, so we took off in the car. After driving around a bit I finally found what I thought was the hospital and pulled in. It turned out not to be a hospital, but instead a retirement home.

At about the point where I realized I wasn't at the hospital a police car lit up and pulled in behind me. When I turned to see the officer there was a gun pointed at my head. Again, I hadn't done anything but drive around and I hadn't said a word to the officer.

When the guy realized I really was looking for a hospital he was fairly nice, but his overreaction could have easily led to a tragic accident. Luckily I was able to keep my head while my wife was crying and the cop was pointing a gun at me.I know Boston is a horrible city to drive around, but how can you live there and not know where a hospital is? :eek:

[JPhillips]

I lived in Brighton while I was a grad student. We had only been there a few months and those were pretty much, T to school, T home, repeat. I was young enough that it never occurred to me that I should know where a hospital was.

[StarBuck]

There's nothing wrong with "blind obedience" when you have nothing at stake and nothing to gain. It's a hell of a lot smarter than "blind resistance".

Nobody has yet been able to post what exactly you gain by not signing a ticket, rather than the generic, "They shouldn't require it!!!"

True dat.

The guy should have just taken it and hashed it out with the judge in traffic court. Such a dummy. I call that "stupid stubborn".

[StarBuck]

And I can promise you, I will never be tasered, no matter how much I thought the Cop was being a dick......it's called the art of communicating.

FTW!

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I fall on both sides of this thing.

The cop acted excessively and should lose his job. I think he was too quick to use force. I understand I'm not in his shoes. I'm simply making a judgement call of my own and saying I think the officer took it too far.

On the other hand, I have NO problem with the arresting of someone if they refuse to sign a ticket. Shut the hell up, sign your ticket and go to court. Seriously, don't be a douche. We've all got nailed at some point and we've all been pulled over "when the other guy was doing the same thing." Act like an F'n adult.

VFP, do you really think a warrant wouldn't be issued for you if you didn't appear in court because you didn't sign the ticket? I know what point you are trying to make, but that seriously made my head hurt. You aren't in anymore trouble than you would already be by signing the ticket. If anything, you'll be in MORE trouble because you showed your disregard for the law by not signing the ticket and then missing a cour appearance.

I think my last ticket was about 7 years ago. 53 in a 45 at 4AM in the morning. On a deserted road. I was angered at first, but dealt with it. I put my hands on the wheel, made no sudden movemets, signed my ticket and went to court. It was dropped to obstruction of the window or some stupid BS and after a $78 fine I was done. The entire thing caused me about 2.3 minutes of frustration. At the end of the day, I did break the law. I can rationalize all the other crap however I want.

I fail to see how even in the best circumstance, not signing the ticket and acting like an idiot would have helped me more than acting like an adult.

Again, this cop acted quickly and should pay the price for that. The drive is also a first class moron who should have handled the situation a lot better than he did.

Let's set the record straight. I've never defended the motorist and said he acted properly. And my point is not that motorist was a smart guy for not signing the ticket or that a warrant wouldn't be eventually issued.

What I have argued is that the officer did not react properly to the motorist's behavior, which resulted in the cop's hurried order to get out of the car and then the tasering after getting scared after turning his back to the motorist. Nobody's rationalizing anything like the motorist is innocent. Nor I am saying the motorist used the best judgment. The big difference is the officer, who is trained and paid to handle these situations, handled it terribly. So terribly that I have serious doubts he is fit to continue his job while having access to a gun and a potentially fatal taser.

[Fighter of Foo]

I lived in Brighton while I was a grad student. We had only been there a few months and those were pretty much, T to school, T home, repeat. I was young enough that it never occurred to me that I should know where a hospital was.

St E's is the big yellowish building up on the hill that you can see from half of Allston & Brighton ;)

[duckman]

If anyone was curious, the Department of Public Safety determined that the highway patrolman was within his rights. They've sent the case to the state attorney general's office to determine any wrongdoing.

[BrianD]

I just watched the video for the first time and I had the distinct impression that the driver was trying to get tazed. The whole thing was a situation that shouldn't have happened, but it takes a special kind of genius to walk away from a cop with a drawn tazer.

[Mo.Raider]

This situation could have and should have been avoided by both the officer and the motorist.

Obviously the kid handled it in a provocative manner. If he could have simply said "I would like to read what I am signing" the officer would have had to comply. If read I'm sure the ticket simply stated that you are present the day of citation and was not an admission of guilt. If the kid was going to argue the citation, my advice would have been in a calm, respectful tone. He had to have known he was making a small situation worse. He came off as someone who "thought" they knew their rights, but really didn't.

The officer, I am sure will face a internal review board. They will find that he could have and should have been more professional. His communication skills need to be improved to rule out any confusion as to what was going on, and what was about to happen. Much of the confrontation could have been avoided by informing him of any State of Idaho laws concerning the failure to sign the citation. A seasoned Officer could have made this a "you have a nice day" type of situation. This is not a career for those who cannot handle chaotic and stressful situations. The board will find it would have been in the best interest for the officer to be less confrontational and more assertive, with clear professional language. These skills are stressed continually in the academy. You cannot afford to Taser everyone who is even slightly misguided. In the officer's defense some of his conversation can't be heard when he is talking to the driver initially.

The wife at no point should have been tasered and he handled that situation appropriatley. The wife was concerned for the safety of her husband and that is a normal reaction.

[BrianD]

The wife at no point should have been tasered and he handled that situation appropriatley. The wife was concerned for the safety of her husband and that is a normal reaction.

I actually thought the wife was a better target for a taser than the husband was. The husband just walked away refusing to comply...which is suspicious enough. The wife came out of the car screaming and approaching the officer...and was probably a more direct threat. Neither should have been tasered, but the wife would have been more understandable...especially after she went back into the car and then came out screaming again.

[duckman]

I actually thought the wife was a better target for a taser than the husband was.

Except for the being pregnant part.

[BrianD]

Except for the being pregnant part.

Being pregnant doesn't make her less threatening when she acts like she was. I would imagine there was more chance of harm to the baby than the mother, but she was still more threatening than he was. And was she noticeably pregnant? If the video title hadn't mentioned that she was, I don't think I would have known.

[DanGarion]

Being pregnant doesn't make her less threatening when she acts like she was. I would imagine there was more chance of harm to the baby than the mother, but she was still more threatening than he was. And was she noticeably pregnant? If the video title hadn't mentioned that she was, I don't think I would have known.
Oh noes! Think of the children! :D

[duckman]

Being pregnant doesn't make her less threatening when she acts like she was. I would imagine there was more chance of harm to the baby than the mother, but she was still more threatening than he was. And was she noticeably pregnant? If the video title hadn't mentioned that she was, I don't think I would have known.

If she had fell and lost the baby, all hell would have broke loose. Lawsuits would be filed (and most likely settled) and people (not just the officer in question) would have lost jobs over it. The negative public opinion about it would be unreal.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I agree, had she been tasered and the baby lost, all hell would have broken loose (we're talking Oprah coverage on this one), and this cop would be not only facing a civil suit but likely a criminal one, and probably would have to go underground. Taser shares would also have dropped 50%.

[Synovia]

Don't taze me, bro....


Ok now that thats out of my system.

#1 I cant believe anyone thinks cops are over paid. I think starting salary around here is 26k/year and top pay for an officer(non detective, investigator or desk jockey) is 37k/year....uh yeah. GOOD DAMN MONEY THERE \


Boston cops (here) after a couple years make $55K+ a year, and many (with overtime/details) make over $100K

[molson]

Being pregnant doesn't make her less threatening when she acts like she was. I would imagine there was more chance of harm to the baby than the mother, but she was still more threatening than he was. And was she noticeably pregnant? If the video title hadn't mentioned that she was, I don't think I would have known.

Pregnant women can have a bad habit of fighting with cops.

I see that in 1 or 2 police reports every month - a pregnant woman initiates a physical confrontation with an officer. Sure, the officers are more careful, but a pregnant lady can pull your gun just like anyone else, so you have use an appropriate level of force.

(Not saying the lady in the video needed to be tazed or anything).

[gstelmack]

Boston cops (here) after a couple years make $55K+ a year, and many (with overtime/details) make over $100K

Can they actually afford a house on that salary? I know what my parents paid for the house they are finally almost finished fixing in Brockton, and I paid less for more house (and one that was actually in decent shape) here in expensive Cary, NC.

[Synovia]

I have no idea, but I make a whole hell of a lot less than most cops, and I'm doing ok (apartment though)


For people who don't understand MA realty, my parents bought their house for $24K in the late 80s. Its worth about 600K now. Its a small 3 bedroom 1 1/2 bath. They're 15 miles outside the city. The same house in Brookline/Cambridge/etc would be much more.

[BrianD]

Pregnant women can have a bad habit of fighting with cops.

I see that in 1 or 2 police reports every month - a pregnant woman initiates a physical confrontation with an officer. Sure, the officers are more careful, but a pregnant lady can pull your gun just like anyone else, so you have use an appropriate level of force.

(Not saying the lady in the video needed to be tazed or anything).

That was pretty much my point. She was much more aggressive than her husband was. Considering how little time a cop has to assess a potentially dangerous situation, is he going to have time to see that she is pregnant and factor that into his threat assessment? From looking at the woman, I couldn't tell she was pregnant, so I wouldn't have factored that in.

[molson]

Single cops are usually in apartments, from my experiences. But most get married and the wife works too.

[BishopMVP]

Can they actually afford a house on that salary? I know what my parents paid for the house they are finally almost finished fixing in Brockton, and I paid less for more house (and one that was actually in decent shape) here in expensive Cary, NC.I wouldn't go by the baseline salary. There are some ridiculous rules here, such as an officer being required to stand by if there is any road work being done. And they usually get overtime for it. (Then you can add in the state union workers getting $36 an hour and it's not fun to drive by road work and seeing 5 guys standing around and 1 working.)

And on this case, I'm assuming the chances of the officer getting publicly rebuked just went from miniscule to nonexistent. Circling the wagons and all that good stuff.

[Synovia]

I wouldn't go by the baseline salary. There are some ridiculous rules here, such as an officer being required to stand by if there is any road work being done. And they usually get overtime for it.

$58/hr IIRC

[Mo.Raider]

That was pretty much my point. She was much more aggressive than her husband was. Considering how little time a cop has to assess a potentially dangerous situation, is he going to have time to see that she is pregnant and factor that into his threat assessment? From looking at the woman, I couldn't tell she was pregnant, so I wouldn't have factored that in.

That is what all of that training at the academy is for. You have to assess the situation very quickly, and at many times during the course of the day put yourself at risk for the greater good. Self preservation is not his sole job at the scene. These guys lay it on the line a lot more than most of us realize. With everything that was going on, he had to realize that her reaction was pretty much what he anticipated. An abnormal reaction would have been for her to sip on a cola while her hubby was being tasered. Part of what they teach in the academy is chaotic scenarios. Again, good call on his behalf and the State of Idaho that he didn't taser the pregnant women. They were arguing a citation, didn't have a Bonnie and Clyde look, and she was having a quite typical reaction to watching a love one get zapped. If you used what is considered deadly force on every flinch, suspicious move etc. there would a shooting every other traffic stop.

I also may be giving him to much credit, because I am fairly certain that the taser he used is a one shot deal, and his next alternative was his gun.

[Fighter of Foo]

Here's the latest death by taser... "The State Patrol said troopers shot him with the Taser because he was uncooperative."

http://www.startribune.com/13841301.html

[Synovia]

People get killed by nightsticks. People get killed being wrestled to the ground (hit their heads). People get killed on rollercoasters for godsakes.


Angry people who need to be arrested means there will be physical contact, and that means people will be hurt, and some killed. It happens. Thats life.

[rkmsuf]

People get killed on rollercoasters for godsakes.

.


true dat

[rkmsuf]

Girl improving after head injury
- South Florida Sun-Sentinel, July 3, 2007

Girl suffers critical head injury on spinning teacups ride
(Thursday, June 29, 2007) - A 13-year-old girl struck her head while riding a spinning teacup ride at Boomers amusement park in Dania Beach, Florida. Witnesses say she appeared to look dizzy, and watched as her head fell backwards over the edge of her seat. The girl may have struck her head on the handle of another teacup as the ride continued to run at full speed.
State inspectors found no mechanical problems with the ride.

The victim was hospitalized in intensive care and was reported to be in serious but stable condition.

[Passacaglia]

SHE WATCHED HER OWN HEAD FALL BACKWARDS?!?!!?!?!?!

[rkmsuf]

SHE WATCHED HER OWN HEAD FALL BACKWARDS?!?!!?!?!?!

that's quite a ride

[stevew]

Brock Vergakis - THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
SALT LAKE CITY -- A stubborn motorist who became an Internet celebrity after video of him being stunned with a Taser by a Utah Highway Patrolman appeared on YouTube will receive $40,000 as part of a lawsuit settlement with the state, the Utah attorney general's office said Monday.

Jared Massey claimed in civil lawsuit filed in January that his civil rights were violated because Trooper Jon Gardner fired his Taser before telling him Massey was under arrest.

The confrontation was widely viewed on the Internet after Massey obtained a copy of a video taken by the cruiser's dashboard camera.

The video has been viewed on YouTube at least 1.7 million times and shows Gardner drawing his stun gun after the 28-year-old Massey -- outside his vehicle to proclaim his innocence -- refused to accept a speeding ticket.

Massey's attorney, Bob Sykes, said he's pleased with the settlement offer.

"They made what we consider to be a very fair offer of a significant amount of money," he said.

The Highway Patrol said the trooper's use of the Taser was justified, but that his attitude was a problem. They put Gardner on administrative leave for a few weeks and said he received training in conflict resolution. Gardner was primarily put on leave for his own safety after state officials received numerous complaints.

Sykes said state attorneys offered to settle the lawsuit before ever officially responding to it, probably because of the video evidence.

"It's pretty damaging," he said. "The force used under these circumstances was nothing less than outrageous."

The Utah Highway Patrol has declined to make Gardner available for comment.

As part of the settlement, the lawsuit against Gardner and potential claims against the Utah Highway Patrol, Utah Department of Public Safety and the state of Utah are being dismissed.

"We think this is a legally defensible case because Trooper Gardner acted reasonably to avert a volatile and potentially dangerous confrontation on the side of a busy highway. We recognize, however, that this is a close case," Assistant Attorney General Scott Cheney, who represented Gardner, said in a statement.

The attorney general's office said defending the lawsuit in court would have been a lengthy and expensive process and that settling was more cost-effective.

Massey paid a $107 fine to settle his ticket for speeding in a construction zone. He was stopped by Gardner on U.S. 40 near Vernal in eastern Utah on Sept. 14.

On Nov. 30, Gardner's superiors cleared his use of the stun gun. They said Gardner felt threatened when Massey turned his back on the trooper and put a hand in his pocket while stepping back toward his vehicle.

But officials also said the trooper could have explained to Massey that he risked being arrested for refusing to sign a speeding ticket.

The signature isn't a legal requirement in Utah, but troopers make a practice of obtaining it as a motorist's pledge to appear in court.

[BishopMVP]

But officials also said the trooper could have explained to Massey that he risked being arrested for refusing to sign a speeding ticket.

The signature isn't a legal requirement in Utah, but troopers make a practice of obtaining it as a motorist's pledge to appear in court.This is the one part I still don't get - if it's not a legal requirement, how can he be arrested for not doing it? Or do they just arrest you then for the speeding charge?

[Grammaticus]

Wow, this utube video recieved more hits than Obama's "race" speech.

I'm assuming the "race" speech will eventually overtake it, but still that is a lot of views.

[molson]

This is the one part I still don't get - if it's not a legal requirement, how can he be arrested for not doing it? Or do they just arrest you then for the speeding charge?

An officer can arrest you for any criminal infraction, all the way down to not wearing your seatblet. Usually, they don't of course, unless there's some reason they doubt you'll show up at court or otherwise take care of the citation.

You CAN'T be arrested for not signing a ticket. You CAN be arrested for speeding. (Some states offer more protections) If you're telling the officer that you're not promising to show up via signature, they might arrest you, especially if you're obnoxious.

[BishopMVP]

An officer can arrest you for any criminal infraction, all the way down to not wearing your seatblet. Usually, they don't of course, unless there's some reason they doubt you'll show up at court or otherwise take care of the citation.

You CAN'T be arrested for not signing a ticket. You CAN be arrested for speeding. (Some states offer more protections) If you're telling the officer that you're not promising to show up via signature, they might arrest you, especially if you're obnoxious.Word, although I think that policy might be better off getting tweaked a little bit here, and probably already has.

[Sgran]

A woman is sitting in the passenger seat of a large car. Her boyfriend is on the other side of the car arguing with a cop. The cop raises his voice, but she can't hear what's going on. Suddenly she hears a noise, then a curdling scream from her boyfriend who drops like a rag.

And she should get tased for getting flustered and wanting to know if he's okay?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Fair result. Except the patrolman should also have gottn busted down to midnight security detail at the local Wal-Mart. Anyways, vindication for those of us who thought the actions were excessive and precipitated by the patrolman's poor judgment at the beginning and throughout the whole encounter.