Defensive formation oddities?

[QuikSand]

EDIT: THIS THREAD EVENTUALLY REVEALED A BUG, AND A WORKAROUND, IN FOF DEFENSIVE GAMEPLANNING.

IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT THIS BUG IS *NOT* SOMETHING THAT JUST CAME UP WITH THE LATEST PATCH, DESPITE PEOPLE SAYING SO.

IF YOU'D LIKE TO LEARN ABOUT THE BUG AND THE EASY WORKAROUND, PLEASE READ ON. -QuikSand



Original post follows:

- - - - -

Since we have had some folks looking more closely at gameplanning of late, I'm wondering if I might get some insight here. This is the relevant subsection (I think) of a game plan that I have used recently in a multiplayer league:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/QuikSand/ihof_che_defensive_personnel.jpg

From this, it *seems* pretty clear to me that this team should *never* put goal-line personnel onto the field, unless the defense has called for an "aggressive run" situation.

Regrettably, it appears that this defensive setup is, indeed, sending out goal-line personnel in situations when I don't expect/want it. Like opposing team having the ball 1st and 10 in a pretty regular game situation. Regularly. (It's not in the pic above, but my gameplan calls for Agg Run defense exactly 0% of the time in such situations, I am absolutely certain of this) But it is clearly calling for GL personnel on plays where I am not calling for Agg Run defense, in any event.

I know the overuse of GL personnel was an issue a while back, and was 'addressed" in a recent patch. I honestly have just lost my enthusiasm for doing lots and lots of testing with this game to find bugs and such, and confess that I more or less took it on faith that things were operating mostly like I'd want them to. But it seems I was wrong there. This defense is *clearly* not executing according to the percentages that I am seeking to use.


Does anyone see something wrong here? Am I running into something by including zeroes or 100s that somehow gives away my control to Coach Rex, or something like that? I'm stumped. And a shade frustrated.

[Ben E Lou]

That game seemed like Rex took over to me. And I'm not sure why.

[MalcPow]

I've noticed that zeroing out aggressive run in almost all places and attempting to limit the use of GL defense to very specific circumstances (3rd and short, etc.) leads to what you're talking about. I've ended up just putting very low numbers in for run aggressive on 1st and 2nd down and it seems to have solved the problem. It's obviously a bug, but the workaround is manageable. I'm also not sure if this is something that was fixed and then broken with a new patch, but I've seen it in some recent 6.1a tests. I agree it's irritating.

[QuikSand]

I've noticed that zeroing out aggressive run in almost all places and attempting to limit the use of GL defense to very specific circumstances (3rd and short, etc.) leads to what you're talking about. I've ended up just putting very low numbers in for run aggressive on 1st and 2nd down and it seems to have solved the problem. It's obviously a bug, but the workaround is manageable. I'm also not sure if this is something that was fixed and then broken with a new patch, but I've seen it in some recent 6.1a tests. I agree it's irritating.

Thanks - that's the best I have to go on. FWIW, the game in question was run without the latest patch, I'm quite sure.

[Ben E Lou]

<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Weak formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-FTW30 (1Q: 10:36) Kent Barton ran outside the right tackle for 0 yards. Tackled by ILB Jeffrey Watson. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Strong formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and strong-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage, expecting the run.
2-7-FTW43 (1Q: 08:40) Wild Mongoose Brimberry pass completed to WR Jerry Miller for 33 yards. Tackled by DT Trung Fryer. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. Miller gained 8 yards after the catch.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: I formation with two tight ends, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-CHE24 (1Q: 07:54) Wild Mongoose Brimberry pass completed to RB Jamal Pearson for 6 yards. Tackled by CB Arnie Hutton.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Weak formation with three wide receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
2-4-CHE18 (1Q: 07:31) Kent Barton ran outside the right tackle for -1 yards. Tackled by OLB Robbie Ingalls, assisted by DE Ricardo Lyle. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-8-CHE08 (1Q: 06:13) Jared Brimberry pass completed to WR Michael Evans for 8 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Fort Worth 6, Chesapeake 0</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-FTW11 (1Q: 02:36) Jared Brimberry pass completed to WR Jerry Miller for 10 yards. Tackled by OLB Robbie Ingalls, assisted by DE Jamal Sampson. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Weak formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-FTW21 (1Q: 01:50) Jared Brimberry pass completed to WR Bo Blades for 15 yards. The receiver went out of bounds. Tackled by OLB Robbie Ingalls.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
3-3-CHE44 (2Q: 14:31) Jamal Pearson ran inside the right tackle for 3 yards. Tackled by DE Robbie Hudson. Key block delivered by Kelvin Mirer. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Pro formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-CHE41 (2Q: 13:53) Wild Mongoose Brimberry pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Bo Blades. CB Travis Gohl defended the pass.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-10-CHE41 (2Q: 13:44) Jamal Pearson ran around left end for 0 yards. Tackled by DE Jamal Sampson. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-FTW24 (2Q: 05:47) Jamal Pearson ran around right end for 7 yards. Tackled by DT Trung Fryer. Key block delivered by Carl Petterson. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-3-FTW31 (2Q: 05:11) Wild Mongoose Brimberry pass was dropped by RB Jamal Pearson.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Weak formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-FTW18 (3Q: 06:48) Jared Brimberry pass was dropped by TE Shannon Sheldon.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Strong formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-9-CHE09 (3Q: 01:09) Jared Brimberry pass was dropped by RB Jamal Pearson. PENALTY: Chesapeake was called for Defensive Holding.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-1-FTW48 (4Q: 13:43) Jamal Pearson ran around the left tackle for 1 yard. Tackled by OLB David Middlehurst. Key block delivered by Carl Petterson. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-2-FTW40 (4Q: 08:03) Wild Mongoose Brimberry pass completed to WR Michael Evans for 31 yards. Tackled by CB Arnie Hutton. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. Evans gained 10 yards after the catch. PENALTY: Chesapeake was called for Offsides. The penalty was declined.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" bgcolor="#021831">Fort Worth: Strong formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-8-CHE08 (4Q: 07:14) Jamal Pearson ran outside the right tackle for -2 yards. Tackled by DT Ivory Stenson, assisted by OLB Robbie Ingalls. The defense looked very familiar with that play. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

[QuikSand]

Well, at least it seems consistent that this is getting triggered in "expecting the run" situations. None of these are "Aggressive Run" situations according to my gameplan (which *should* be the only time that we send out GL personnel) but at least it's not doing it when we are expecting the pass.

[Ben E Lou]

Prelimary indications are that GL usage for Aggressive Run and RUn may be reversed. Can't try it much now, but someone please attempt to verify.

IE:

1. Put 100 in Aggressive Run, 0 in Run. It appears it will use it all the time in Run.
2. Put 100 in Run, 0 in Aggressive Run. It appears it will use it all the time in Aggressive Run.

[Ben E Lou]

Prelimary indications are that GL usage for Aggressive Run and RUn may be reversed. Can't try it much now, but someone please attempt to verify.

IE:

1. Put 100 in Aggressive Run, 0 in Run. It appears it will use it all the time in Run.
2. Put 100 in Run, 0 in Aggressive Run. It appears it will use it all the time in Aggressive Run.

This is now confirmed. Be advised. If you want to use GL in aggressive run, put it in your "Run" column. Your "run" GL settings are being applied to "Aggressive Run" situations, and your "Aggressive Run" settings are being applied to "Run" situations.

[NoSkillz]

This is now confirmed. Be advised. If you want to use GL in aggressive run, put it in your "Run" column. Your "run" GL settings are being applied to "Aggressive Run" situations, and your "Aggressive Run" settings are being applied to "Run" situations.

:( I hate hearing stuff like this.

[MalcPow]

Hmm, nice catch SD.

[Fonzie]

:( I hate hearing stuff like this.

+1

[Fonzie]

Hmm, nice catch SD.
dola-

+1

[Ben E Lou]

Thanks, but once I pulled all 17 instances from the log and compared them to Quik's plan, the implication was pretty obvious. The testing was just to verify. The funny thing is that I did test this a while back, but it didn't occur to me to test each individual column.

[Wasabiak]

Is it confirmed that those are the only 2 entries in the grid that are screwed up?

[Ben E Lou]

Further testing on that screen reveals this: the "Aggressive Run" and "Run" columns are flip-flopped, both in the Opp 1 to Own 21, and in the Own Red Zone sections. In other words, these settings...

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/61/defense.png

...will cause the defense to blitz 100% of the time when in Run Aggressive, using GL personnel 50% of the time and dime personnel 50% of the time. In Run, with these settings, it would use no blitzing, GL, nickel, or dime. Yes, it's clearly a bug, but I guess the good news in this case is that there's an easy workaround.

[Wasabiak]

Well, I'd like to thank you, SD, for taking the time to figure this out. Do you think this has been an issue from the onset, or do you think this was something that recently started after a patch? I would think someone would have stumbled upon this by now if it was previously an issue? What was the date of the latest release?

Edit--Have you confirmed that the pass/agg. pass columns are correct?

[Ben E Lou]

Well, I'd like to thank you, SD, for taking the time to figure this out. Do you think this has been an issue from the onset, or do you think this was something that recently started after a patch?

6.1 was released on September 21st. The game that Quik references here was run on 6.1, and my tests were done on 6.1a, so we know for certain it's been there for at least three months, but I'd suspect much longer than that. Looking at old change logs, the last time the defensive personnel usage screen was refenced in a patch was 6.0e, which was released on May 2nd. If I had to bet money on it, though, I'd plunk my cash down on it having been there since beta. I tend to doubt that Jim reversed those columns in a patch.

I would think someone would have stumbled upon this by now if it was previously an issue?From past history, absolutely not. Most notably, the nickel and dime were not being used at ALL other than against 4WR, 5WR, and in 2-minute drill, for the first 6+ months the game was out, and no one noticed that. That was much more obvious than this. You'd have to run a custom game plan like Quik's--no GL with Run, significant GL with Aggressive Run, and very low use of Aggressive Run, to really notice this. The differences in Rex's usage in Run versus Aggressive Run are small enough that it wouldn't be obvious at all.

Edit--Have you confirmed that the pass/agg. pass columns are correct?For nickel, dime, and blitzing, yes. I didn't bother with checking GL in those, since Rex doesn't use it at all, and no human in his right mind would, either.

[Tasan]

I assume the man has been notified?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

This is happening to me in the CFL and it's killing my gameplanning.

[Ben E Lou]

I assume the man has been notified?

Well, yes, but this one's so easy to work around in MP, and makes such a small difference in SP, that I don't know that it merits a quick patch. Just switch your intentions in those two sets of columns, and you're fine.

[Mistwood19]

Edited for misunderstood issue

[Ben E Lou]

Great, this would explain why my once dominant defensive GP in two leagues is getting shredded since the patch.I guess spouting off is more fun that actually paying attention to the facts. *shurg*

[Tormaz]

Nice find. Thanks for the info!

[Mistwood19]

I guess spouting off is more fun that actually paying attention to the facts. *shurg*

My bad...I didn't catch this wasn't due to the last patch.

[Shooter]

Are the Run and Agg. Run just reversed on the defensive personnel screens or also in the basic defense screens too?

[Ben E Lou]

Are the Run and Agg. Run just reversed on the defensive personnel screens or also in the basic defense screens too?
I'm fairly certain that the Basic screens are working correctly.

[Wasabiak]

Well, yes, but this one's so easy to work around in MP, and makes such a small difference in SP, that I don't know that it merits a quick patch. Just switch your intentions in those two sets of columns, and you're fine.

I will need to disagree. It's a pretty major flaw, depending on the data in the cells. Anyone unsuspecting has a right to a fix. We cannot assume everyone that owns the game will see this thread.

[sovereignstar]

Sorry, but I have to get this off of my chest. I can't believe this hasn't been fixed yet.

[Fonzie]

Sorry, but I have to get this off of my chest. I can't believe this hasn't been fixed yet.

Agreed. I don't see any excuse for leaving this unfixed. I thought it a slam-dunk that this would've been corrected within weeks, at most. It seems like this would be a very simple fix, but I readily admit that to knowing nothing about programming. For all I know making this correction would be a giant pain in the ass. Maybe Jim's been working on it tirelessly since it was reported. I don't know.

Nevertheless, considering that a very large portion of Jim's sales base will never see this forum or read this thread, I'm astonished that he's willing to leave those non-FOFC customers just plain "out of luck" like this. If he's not going to fix the bug then he owes it to his paying non-FOFC customers to mention something about this on the FOF2k7 page of his website, or to at least link to this thread so that they have a clue about working around this.

[Front Office Midget]

I'm glad this was bumped... I had no idea this existed.

[jdavidbakr]

Happened to catch this referenced in another thread. I can't believe this bug has been exposed this long and has not been patched, especially for those of us who bought the game recently and didn't know this bug existed. Even knowing this workaround, it's very painful to gameplan by swapping those two columns, my brain absolutely won't let me think that way :mad:

And from a programmer's perspective, unless he's using some moronic development tool, this should be able to be fixed by changing at most 12 lines of code, and most likely by going into the GUI interface editor and just swapping the columns. A 2-minute fix, tops.

[jdavidbakr]

P.S. - I vote we make this thread sticky so any new users can see it. This puts people who know about this bug at a significant advantage over those who don't in MP leagues (assuming both players give significant thought to their defensive gameplanning).

[3ric]

Leaving this one hanging is a bit uncharacteristic of Jim. Unless he's planning a FOF2008 release soon. Hmm.

[Yoda]

Leaving this one hanging is a bit uncharacteristic of Jim. Unless he's planning a FOF2008 release soon. Hmm.

Still, it's been known since before Christmas of last year, there should have been something to correct it in the past 8 months. Even if he's putting out a new version.

Or at least a response as to why he hasn't fixed it.

[Yoda]

Leaving this one hanging is a bit uncharacteristic of Jim. Unless he's planning a FOF2008 release soon. Hmm.

I sent an e-mail last week asking about this, but never received a response.

[Ben E Lou]

I sent an e-mail last week asking about this, but never received a response.Last week, eh??? You PMed me Thursday night at 11:59pm asking if you thought Jim might say why he hadn't fixed this bug. I suggested in a PM back to you at 12:42pm on Friday that you ought to email support, and you said you would do it.

So, was that e-mail sent last week, or was it sent yesterday afternoon?

[Yoda]

Both actually. I just thought he might answer it if it came from you or someone else a little more known.