Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5 - The end is near!

[Neon_Chaos]

Anyone catch all ten webisodes?

Can't wait for the series to come back! Jan. 16! Woohoo! Final ten episodes of the entire series, simply can't wait.

[RendeR]

I am SO with you on this. I'm drooling and dreaming about it in my sleep.

[ISiddiqui]

Eeek... gotta watch the webisodes!

I knew I forgot something!

[Kodos]

Very much looking forward to the new season.

[Cringer]

IS last season available to watch online (for free, I am cheap)? Even being home all of last season I missed most of it. :(

[Fonzie]

Eeek... gotta watch the webisodes!

I knew I forgot something!

Me too. Thanks for the reminder!

[BrianD]

How do the webisodes fit in? Is it something that really should be watched before the shows start up again?

[Raiders Army]

We bought Season 1 last Summer and are currently in Season 3. We're trying to catch up and should catch up within the next month.

[Eaglesfan27]

How do the webisodes fit in? Is it something that really should be watched before the shows start up again?

I'm wondering the same thing. I haven't watched any of them yet.

[ISiddiqui]

I just watched the webisodes, and I'd recommend watching them. They have a cliffhanger that hints at something that may occur during Season 4.5. It may help understand the actions of someone during the season. Probably not essential, but perhaps more explanatory.

Also makes Baltar look a lot better in his Presidency, in Episode 9 of the webisodes (and if you missed the line he whispered in Gaeta's ear while in prison, its in the Writer Commentary for Ep 9).

[Edward64]

Great episode ... not that I understand it. The fifth is Ty's former wife?

[ISiddiqui]

Well Frak Me! Ellen is the 5th... so what is Starbuck?! Obviously she died and came back.

Damn. Just damn. The scene between Tigh and Adama was pure brilliance. And Dee... wow.

[kcchief19]

Holy frackin' hell. I was on the edge of my seat until the very end. Typical of the series to off a character in a sudden and surprising way to keep you off balance and worried about what's coming next.

I don't know what to make of Ellen. Unless this pays off in a big way, I'm going to be horribly disappointed. It just seems like such a cop out.

We've been led to believe that D'Anna knows who the fifth Cylon is, and when she demanded the fleet turnover the Cylons at the end of the first half of season four, the only demanded four -- since she knew Ellen wasn't with the fleet.

So is Ellen still alive? And what the hell is Starbuck?

[ISiddiqui]

Well, it is true that D'Anna did say that the 5th Cylon wasn't with the fleet (I saw it a few eps back in the replay of S4.0 Sci-Fi was having) and only asked for 4. So is appears perhaps Ellen will come back at some point?

[Edward64]

Holy frackin' hell. I was on the edge of my seat until the very end. Typical of the series to off a character in a sudden and surprising way to keep you off balance and worried about what's coming next.

:
:

So is Ellen still alive? And what the hell is Starbuck?
The Starbuck funeral pyre was great. What was the deal with whacking off Dee (sp?) anyway. Was there a storyline there that I missed?

[ISiddiqui]

I think it was just showing the hopelessness probably a good deal of the fleet was feeling. That an Adama's reaction. Needed someone known to provoke such a reaction in the Old Man.

[Kodos]

So the webisodes are something different from what you can download on Xbox Live? I just watched 7 two-minute shows about Bill Adama during the first Cylon war.

[Edward64]

For the BSG fans at FOF, here's a link to Sci-Fi BSG forum on last nights episode. Glad to see I'm not the only one confused.
S4E13 - Sometimes a Great Notion - Rate and Discuss - SCI FI FORUMS (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2322016&st=840&start=840)

[Barkeep49]

I had predicted, and indeed convinced most of my friends that watched the show, that Ellen was the 5th. So that was no big shock.

I felt the Dee thing was done just to be shocking. She was not suicidal in the least at that moment, no matter how much she wanted that feeling to continue forever. That was just absurd.

The Starback thing on the other hand? Loved that. Definitely can't wait to see what explanation they come up with for that. When Leobon is freaked out, especially in relation to something having to do with Starbuck, you know things are frakked up.

[Barkeep49]

Maybe we're all Cylons. :)Technically, I think this is the closest we've ever come to actually guessing something correctly.

Stole this from the Season 4 thread, to avoid splitting the discussion. Don't forget that the Cylons on Earth have been dead a long long time. For all we know they had long killed off the humans on the planet. My initial reaction was the same as yours, that the show is stating we're all Cylons, but my brother pointed out that this might not be true. Thematically, it does seem to work, but honestly I would view this as another cheapening of the show.

One of the things that has made BSG great, I feel, is that they didn't make stuff up to further the plot. Unlike in Star Trek there wasn't some thingamajig that conveniently shows up to help things along. It seems like with the 13th tribe being Cylons, and the Starbuck resurrection bit, that they've fallen outside of the reality they've created.

[Eaglesfan27]

I felt the Dee thing was done just to be shocking. She was not suicidal in the least at that moment, no matter how much she wanted that feeling to continue forever. That was just absurd.



I didn't find it absurd. She was close to losing it in the Raptor after visiting Earth and seeing what a desolate wasteland it was. Everyone was in despair because that was the place where they were supposed to be safe and where they were supposed to meet other humans to save the human race. She lost the land, the idea that other humans were out there, and a chance to get away from her past hurts in one fell swoop. She already had gone down the path of trying to have a relationship with Lee and that ended in nothing but misery for her since he is hung up on Starbuck. I think towards the end of the date when she didn't invite him in, she realized that she couldn't go down that road again and realized with the promise of earth gone, there was nothing else for her. Sometimes, suicidal families will say that people appear the most happy right before they kill themselves. This suicide surprised me, but I didn't find it absurd.

[RendeR]

I didn't find it absurd. She was close to losing it in the Raptor after visiting Earth and seeing what a desolate wasteland it was. Everyone was in despair because that was the place where they were supposed to be safe and where they were supposed to meet other humans to save the human race. She lost the land, the idea that other humans were out there, and a chance to get away from her past hurts in one fell swoop. She already had gone down the path of trying to have a relationship with Lee and that ended in nothing but misery for her since he is hung up on Starbuck. I think towards the end of the date when she didn't invite him in, she realized that she couldn't go down that road again and realized with the promise of earth gone, there was nothing else for her. Sometimes, suicidal families will say that people appear the most happy right before they kill themselves. This suicide surprised me, but I didn't find it absurd.


This is a very important point and very true. I've read (sorry no citation) that this euphoria right near the actual act is due to the realization that they're actually goin to end it and the relief it gives them emotionally is almost like a drug induced high. They're finally able to feel happy again because they finally found the end of the pain and have accepted it.

[ISiddiqui]

One of the things that has made BSG great, I feel, is that they didn't make stuff up to further the plot.

Even though the creators have admitted that they've made up things on the spot? ;)

[Barkeep49]

Even though the creators have admitted that they've made up things on the spot? ;)
I mean stuff like "If we adjust the flux capcitor to .016 we just might be able to break this forcefield".

[ISiddiqui]

I don't know how the 13th tribe being Cylon or Starbuck resurrecting does that. It seems to fit into the narrative they have built. I mean, doesn't the 13th tribe being Cylon seem to fit into those guesses (that have been going on forever) that everyone is a Cylon?

[RendeR]

I don't know how the 13th tribe being Cylon or Starbuck resurrecting does that. It seems to fit into the narrative they have built. I mean, doesn't the 13th tribe being Cylon seem to fit into those guesses (that have been going on forever) that everyone is a Cylon?

at the very least it muddies the waters so that they can really shock everyone with the real answers later on in the show?

[ISiddiqui]

Of course, I guess one can posit that the war between the Gods on old Kobol may have been a war against humans and Cylons and at the end of it, all the survivors left on 13 colony ships, one being Cylon, but in all the intervening time the truth about the 13th tribe being Cylon was forgotten.

Of course then, it seems, the Cylons created their own Cylons, who rebelled against them and turned the planet into a nuked hellhole.

This has all happened before, etc.

So instead of being randomly introduced to move the story along, it seems like something that fits perfectly into the story arc.

[Barkeep49]

Maureen Ryan, the Chicago Tribune's television critic and huge BSG fan, has an interview with Ron Moore plus info from the writers and directors of the episode. Definitely worth checking out:
'Battlestar Galactica's' Ron Moore addresses the shocking developments of 'Sometimes a Great Notion' | The Watcher (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html)

[flere-imsaho]

Great read, Barkeep. I also agree with ISiddiqui's assessment of where it's all going. I honestly wonder if the "Final 5" were the ones who instigated the trip to find the original 12 colonies, and once they found them, built the seeds of the Cylons amongst the colonies and then gave themselves amnesia (to be awoken later, if necessary).

[Crapshoot]

I didn't find it absurd. She was close to losing it in the Raptor after visiting Earth and seeing what a desolate wasteland it was. Everyone was in despair because that was the place where they were supposed to be safe and where they were supposed to meet other humans to save the human race. She lost the land, the idea that other humans were out there, and a chance to get away from her past hurts in one fell swoop. She already had gone down the path of trying to have a relationship with Lee and that ended in nothing but misery for her since he is hung up on Starbuck. I think towards the end of the date when she didn't invite him in, she realized that she couldn't go down that road again and realized with the promise of earth gone, there was nothing else for her. Sometimes, suicidal families will say that people appear the most happy right before they kill themselves. This suicide surprised me, but I didn't find it absurd.

I think the Lee point is a good one - she didn't invite him in; she knows where this is going (all this has happened before. :D)

[Edward64]

Maureen Ryan, the Chicago Tribune's television critic and huge BSG fan, has an interview with Ron Moore plus info from the writers and directors of the episode. Definitely worth checking out:
'Battlestar Galactica's' Ron Moore addresses the shocking developments of 'Sometimes a Great Notion' | The Watcher (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html)

Thanks for the find. I agree, great read.

The crazy thing about this is, even without Ellen, even without Dee, we also got a ton of information or clues about what happened on Earth and what happened with the Colonies in the past. I could spend an hour asking you questions about that. Tigh and Baltar are offering this theory that the Cylons are the 13th tribe and they found this planet and they called it Earth. Are we to read that as a theory or as fact?

I think you can read that as fact.

[flere-imsaho]

I've read elsewhere that Moore et. al. viewed this last episode "Sometimes a Great Notion" as a potential series finale if the Writers' Strike lasted too long.

That would have been depressing. Not only is the episode depressing in itself, but if the series had ended like this with so many questions still unanswered....

All of which I think points to two things as the series starts to wrap up:

1. Moore isn't afraid to end darkly. We could be in for a very unhappy ending.

2. I wonder how many of the big questions really will be resolved.

Also, I'm not sure if that's "Earth", to be honest. Moore's response in the Tribune interview is very lawyerly. The only thing he says categorically is that the 13th tribe called it Earth.

Lastly, based on the previews, does anyone think the next episode will be mostly intra-fleet political suck?

[Neon_Chaos]

I've read elsewhere that Moore et. al. viewed this last episode "Sometimes a Great Notion" as a potential series finale if the Writers' Strike lasted too long.

That would have been depressing. Not only is the episode depressing in itself, but if the series had ended like this with so many questions still unanswered....

All of which I think points to two things as the series starts to wrap up:

1. Moore isn't afraid to end darkly. We could be in for a very unhappy ending.

2. I wonder how many of the big questions really will be resolved.

Also, I'm not sure if that's "Earth", to be honest. Moore's response in the Tribune interview is very lawyerly. The only thing he says categorically is that the 13th tribe called it Earth.

Lastly, based on the previews, does anyone think the next episode will be mostly intra-fleet political suck?

I hope the next episode finally pushes through with what happens after the webisodes. They really built a strong subplot in the webisodes that might make for a major story arc for the next few episodes.

[RendeR]

I love this show.

[Raiders Army]

I love spoilers. We have three more episodes in Season 3 to go and then it's on to Season 4. We'll be caught up in a couple weeks.

Funny thing is that we just watched Starbuck die last night in Season 3.

[Eaglesfan27]

I love spoilers. We have three more episodes in Season 3 to go and then it's on to Season 4. We'll be caught up in a couple weeks.

Funny thing is that we just watched Starbuck die last night in Season 3.

I wouldn't ever come into this thread when I was catching up on Season 2 and 3.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, really...

[ISiddiqui]

Slower episode tonight, but one setting up a LOT of future danger (next week looks explosive, and super fun). Once again Zarek tries to exploit "democracy" to aggrandize for himself. Gaeta falls right into place.

Wonder when/if Roslin snaps out of this. I'm guessing Zarek won't last long in the government. Maybe setting it up for President Adama quicker than I thought they were going do it.

[Edward64]

An okay episode. A letdown when compared to the season premiere. Hate the religious themes.

The mutiny of the supply ship was really weak. What and where was it supposed to go and do?

Next week's show does look exciting.

[ISiddiqui]

The tillium (sp?) miners haven't shown themselves to be the brightest people in the past.

What religious themes are you talking about this week? One Baltar speech? Personally I really like the religious themes and how they influence the politics and conflict with each other.

[kcchief19]

I thought there could have been more to this episode. It was a bit slow moving but on the upside it does seem to be setting the stage for fireworks down the road. This was just such a slow episode compared to the rollercoaster from last week.

Interesting to see Gaeta throw in with Zarek. So until Six has her baby, looks like Hera is the only one of her kind. I'm wondering what the "first" full Cylon baby will mean.

[Crapshoot]

I loved this episode; Kara and Baltar are interesting; the president makes me want to shoot her. This was more classic BSG, rather than just "whaa whaa religious philosophy whaa whaa".

[flere-imsaho]

I was under the impression that the tyllium miners were more-or-less acting on Zarek's suggestion/request.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, they had to be receptive to the idea at first, I'd imagine.

[Neon_Chaos]

I love the slow burn. Should be a fun ride to the end.

[RendeR]

Remember Zarek is the VP, if your the captain of a ship and the VP tells you something, you listen, Yes?

I hope to god they flush Zarek out an airlock. He's one of the few characters I truly have come to despise in this show. I'm terribly disappointed in the change in Geata. His leg issue apparently brought up a lot of repressed hatred. Though I did enjoy the scene with Kara. Talk about flipping the roles around.

Was definitely not as big a "WOW" episode as last week but it definitely sets up some juicy stuff to come.


Just a thought from the back of my brain:

What if everyone IS the same....and the war on Kobol wasn't between two different races, but two differing "Nations"?

HUmans from some country called "Humana" or something and Cylons likewise from a country named as such?
Its all fuzzy atm, but does that make any sense to anyone else?

[Neon_Chaos]

Remember Zarek is the VP, if your the captain of a ship and the VP tells you something, you listen, Yes?

I hope to god they flush Zarek out an airlock. He's one of the few characters I truly have come to despise in this show. I'm terribly disappointed in the change in Geata. His leg issue apparently brought up a lot of repressed hatred. Though I did enjoy the scene with Kara. Talk about flipping the roles around.

Was definitely not as big a "WOW" episode as last week but it definitely sets up some juicy stuff to come.


Just a thought from the back of my brain:

What if everyone IS the same....and the war on Kobol wasn't between two different races, but two differing "Nations"?

HUmans from some country called "Humana" or something and Cylons likewise from a country named as such?
Its all fuzzy atm, but does that make any sense to anyone else?

Actually, his hatred came via what transpired in the webisodes.

[Raiders Army]

I wouldn't ever come into this thread when I was catching up on Season 2 and 3.
Can't help it. I also read the last few pages of a book sometime about the middle of it too. We're catching up and should be caught up by next episode. We watched the first two episodes after Razor last night.

[Raiders Army]

By the way, is it just me or is there a lot of drinking and whoring every episode?

[Coffee Warlord]

By the way, is it just me or is there a lot of drinking and whoring every episode?

Hell, there's been that since the start of the new series.

What else is there to do on a tin can out in space. :)

[Taur]

I didn't understand the Cally's baby story. Didn't make since to have her child's real father be just another member of the fleet. I saw her getting pregnant when she was held captive on the prison ship and maybe even of having the father been Zarek. OR, I was also thing Baltar would have been a good story line.

But, why go with Crewman #5? Doesn't seem like enough of a storyline here?

[ISiddiqui]

The storyline of the kid not being a hybrid is enough, I think. Involving someone else we know well would have been too eye rolling, IMO.

[flounder]

Isn't the guy who plays the real father the son of Edward James Olmos? Maybe they gave him a bigger role as a favor to the old man.

[Eaglesfan27]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I seem to remember that he and Cally had some chemistry/flirting back when the Chief wasn't available, so it made sense to me.

[Taur]

I was just having flashbacks when Baltar went into the chiefs room and was telling him how hot his dead wife was and I also remembered how the baby like hearing Baltars voice, so this would have made perfect since to me.

I never remember anything about how long the Chief and Cally dated or how long after they were married that the baby was born, 6 months? Did she have an affair while they were married, or was it a pregnant wedding?

[Neon_Chaos]

I didn't understand the Cally's baby story. Didn't make since to have her child's real father be just another member of the fleet. I saw her getting pregnant when she was held captive on the prison ship and maybe even of having the father been Zarek. OR, I was also thing Baltar would have been a good story line.

But, why go with Crewman #5? Doesn't seem like enough of a storyline here?

He's not crewman #5.

He's Hotdog. He was one of the original viper pilots trained by Kara on board BSG since Season 1, Ep.4 , along with Kat and Chuckles. He's been a key viper pilot in several missions throughout the BSG run.

[flere-imsaho]

Actually, his hatred came via what transpired in the webisodes.

I think the webisodes only amplified it. I think even if you don't see the episodes, you can understand Gaeta's hate, which is now directed at both sides, it seems.

Here's a guy who did everything he could on New Caprica and was harshly ostracized for it the rest of Season 3. Here's a guy who loses his leg because of a hunch by Starbuck which, if you look at it a certain way, wasn't necessary to fulfill (even without the Cylons, you'd have to think that Anders & Tyrol would eventually have figured out the Viper signal and the fleet would have gotten to Earth, and that's not even including the point that apparently getting to Earth was pointless anyway).

Also think back to the episode (a few episodes ago?) when Gaeta drops something in the CiC and Tigh condescendingly asks if he wants to be relieved and it's Dualla who picks the object up for Gaeta. And then later she kills herself and he's the last person to see her alive.

Frankly, I think that by now that Gaeta's unhinged, and I don't blame him. The webisodes reinforce this, but I don't think they make this new.

[Bad-example]

At this point, I am hoping for Gaeta's wimpy, worthless ass to get fragged somehow. Or lose another body part. As long as I don't have to hear him sing again, that is.

[RendeR]

I'm just very disspointed with Geata. his entire character has been fracked to hell, and with good reason based on everything he's gone through, but I just wish he'd go away. He's not even a character I can enjoy hating, he's just an awful character now and his scenes are awful to watch.

[Crapshoot]

See, I like Gaeta - some like Dee respond by giving up, Gaeta responds by getting angry. Its good to have a villain, and more tragic because we know he didn't start out that way. BSG is not now and never has been about the happy ending; its about the survival.

[KWhit]

Remind me.... How did he lose his leg?

[ISiddiqui]

On the trip where Starbuck and a bunch of Galactica pilots go off in a tanker to try to find Earth and the pilots get fed up and decide to start a coup (drafting Helo to take charge). Anders grabs a gun and shoots Gaeta in the leg to prevent him from jumping the tanker.

[KWhit]

Oh yeah.

[Barkeep49]

See, I like Gaeta - some like Dee respond by giving up, Gaeta responds by getting angry. Its good to have a villain, and more tragic because we know he didn't start out that way. BSG is not now and never has been about the happy ending; its about the survival.
I like the character fine, but I don't think the actor has the chops to pull it off.

[Daimyo]

I think Gaeta is a pretty compelling character. He's the guy who has tried to do the right, selfless thing his entire life and was always the "good guy". Now he's in the situation where he has seen that at all of that has been, at best, for nothing and, at worst, he actually caused pain and suffering lot of innocent people. His whole world is upside down and now we get to watch him crack and see how he reacts.

Its sort of like how Dee was always the strong one and we've already seen her break... We've come close to all these characters and I think this season its all about throwing shit at them until they break.

[Thomkal]

what no comments about the big Adama/bald Roslyn sex scene? :) Ok episode with some juicy moments-Gaeta/Kara and the great Adama/Zarek showdown in the prison cell.

I'm wondering if they are foreshadowing the elder Adama's death or retirement with the pain he was in this episode-looks like he's going to have a heart attack or something. Thought the scene with Baltar wasn't very interesting and not sure where they are going with it-seems like they are just giving him something to do.

Loved the Doc's comment to Tigh when Tigh couldn't see the baby on the ultrasound-about using your eyes...er eye. LOL. Next episode looks like its going to be pretty action packed-I predict at least one character will die.

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm wondering if they are foreshadowing the elder Adama's death or retirement with the pain he was in this episode-looks like he's going to have a heart attack or something. Thought the scene with Baltar wasn't very interesting and not sure where they are going with it-seems like they are just giving him something to do.

He's been popping a lot of pills lately, and is under obvious massive stress. I would be utterly unsurprised if he bites it in this episode or next, with some major fireworks. The Admiral (tm) will not go down easy.

[ISiddiqui]

Thought the scene with Baltar wasn't very interesting and not sure where they are going with it-seems like they are just giving him something to do.

I thought it was quite interesting that he's basically lost faith. Not just yelling out to god for answers, and that his followers should tell him to explain himself, but when ex-chief started fighting with baby daddy, it cut to Baltar looking totally like he didn't give a shit.

[flere-imsaho]

Did anything ever come of Baltar's conversation with the Centurion on the Cylon BaseStar?

[ISiddiqui]

Did anything ever come of Baltar's conversation with the Centurion on the Cylon BaseStar?

Well it saved him from the blast and made Roslin find out Baltar's responsibility for the original attack ;).

Aside from that... no.

Though Baltar may feel better towards Roslin, because she didn't let him die.

[flere-imsaho]

I could have sworn that at some point Baltar put a suggestion of independence in the Centurions minds.... Must just be my imagination.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, but that Centurion was destroyed in the blast.

[flere-imsaho]

I guess I was getting it confused with what happened in this episode. (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Six_of_One)

[Neon_Chaos]

Did anything ever come of Baltar's conversation with the Centurion on the Cylon BaseStar?

I don't think so. That centurion got blasted to bits, and Baltar almost died.

[Edward64]

Great episode, can't wait for next week.

Somewhat unbelievable that all the marines mutinied ... you would have thought there would be more disagreement/shooting amongst them.

Starbuck is on the edge! Love how she shot the second marine without hesitation in the hanger.

Adama overcoming the marines escorting him to the brig, yeah right.

Where were all the fighter jocks?

Another stupid Baltar appearance.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow. Just wow.

[ISiddiqui]

Adama overcoming the marines is explained by surprise. Lulling the guy behind him and then him and Tigh hitting them at the same time.

Where were the fighter jocks is a great question. And if they were all backing Gaeta (as they may have been if you remember the "close the door" scene), they ain't gonna have anyone to fly missions.

And Baltar's appearance was necessary to advance the plot and get him off Galactica and onto the Cylon Basestar.

[Eaglesfan27]

Great episode, best of the seaason I think. I loved seeing Starbuck back on edge. Her scenes were great. I had no problem with Adama and Tigh overcoming the marines with surprise. I agree with the gripe that I would expect more marines to side with Adama, but his descent into booze/despair along with the longstanding hatred of Cylons can make that somewhat believable. All of the fighter jocks were with Gaeta I think as he called out Hotdog towards the end of the episode.

Edit: I think Baltar again shows himself to be a fraud who is only concerned with self-preservation. I loved the President calling him on both of those issues.

[ISiddiqui]

Well Baltar was trying to stay somewhat. He asked a few times if he really had to go.

He's just become very listless since they found Earth (as shown in last week's ep as well).

[Eaglesfan27]

Well Baltar was trying to stay somewhat. He asked a few times if he really had to go.

He's just become very listless since they found Earth (as shown in last week's ep as well).

He brought up going first, under the guise of protecting his people. I think the President calling him out, at least made him question his stance.

[ISiddiqui]

... I was pretty sure that they were getting ready to move him for his safety and Tyrol and the women had already decided it.

[kcchief19]

I had no trouble with Adama and Tigh kicking ass and taking names. They are both tough birds and I think they could rumble with men half their age. Combine that with the distraction that Adama setup and then the perfect timing of hitting both guys at once made it work and reminded us that these two guys know each other so well, even if Tigh is a Cylon.

I think the Marines backing Gaeta and Zarek is definitely a nature of the anti-Cylon sentiment. Appolo made the case too -- it's hard for them to accept the Cylons as allies after all that has happened. Essentially the case Roslin was making at the end was to say to tell the fleet that their choice was extinction or working with the Cylons.

Great episode. Incredible action. The previews definitely lead you to believe that Tigh bites the dust next week. If that happens, it will be interesting to see if he and Ellen are resurrected -- and how.

[Kodos]

I took the comment about Tigh dying to be a bluff to get Roslin to give up.

[ISiddiqui]

I took the comment about Tigh dying to be a bluff to get Roslin to give up.

I thought it was more a bluff to get the other Cylons to give up (ie, we've killed one of the Final Five, we'll do it to the rest too... well, except Tori who is on the Basestar).

[Coffee Warlord]

I thought it was more a bluff to get the other Cylons to give up (ie, we've killed one of the Final Five, we'll do it to the rest too... well, except Tori who is on the Basestar).

Didn't Tyrol leave with the Pres?

[ISiddiqui]

Hmm.. not sure... then I guess they'd still have Anders in the brig.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't think all the pilots are with Gaeta. At the end, when he asks who's out there (to task someone with shooting down the raptor) he calls out one pilot specifically and asks the guy to scramble the comm line to that pilot.

[Neon_Chaos]

Wow. Un-frakkin-believable.

[Edward64]

Let me be the first to say 30 min in, this is a damn good episode! Intense.

[Edward64]

Damn, how many marines have gone down so far? Starbuck is going to go crazy now.

[Edward64]

Hmmm. Great ending but where is Starbuck?

Somewhat unbelievable how Adama took back control (who were those marines following him?) but still a great episode.

[Eaglesfan27]

Hmmm. Great ending but where is Starbuck?

Somewhat unbelievable how Adama took back control (who were those marines following him?) but still a great episode.

I didn't find it unbelievable. The marines all realized they were on the losing side as it was obvious that Gaeta was losing control and they were certainly disheartened as news of the execution of the quorum spread throughout the forces. So, most of them defected back to Adama and he accepted them back out of necessity. Great episode, one of the most intense of the entire series.

Anyone have thoughts on what the damage was that Tyrol was looking at in a concerned fashion after he disabled the drive? I'm wondering if there is going to be some kind of lasting damage to the engines from that manuever.

Edit: As for Starbuck, she is with the lawyer trying to get Anders to the doc. That was the only part I found a bit unconvincing. Her feelings for Anders are all over the place.

[gi]

Starbuck seems to be all of the place most of the time. Part of her charm :)

[kcchief19]

You always have to love a Romo Lampkin sighting, even if it was a bit weak this time around. I was pretty surprised at the ending. I figured Adama would lock them up but didn't expect the firing squad.

Next week looks very intriguing. I'm looking forward to getting some resolution on the Ellen questions.

[Fonzie]

Damn, I'm gonna miss this show.

[ISiddiqui]

Awesome episode!

Loved Lee and Starbuck busting out the Cylons in the brig. Anders looks not long for this body (from the previews of next week, it'll be interesting to see where he eventually comes back). Lampkin's small role was very well done and killing the Marine with the pen was awesome.

Baltar also, in a rare moment, is shown thinking about more than himself, realizing his followers depended on him. Will be interested to see how his character advances the next few episodes.

And glad to see Zarek and Gaeta riddled with holes.

[ISiddiqui]

Anyone have thoughts on what the damage was that Tyrol was looking at in a concerned fashion after he disabled the drive? I'm wondering if there is going to be some kind of lasting damage to the engines from that manuever.

I think we just have to know that Tyrol is a bit concerned about something in the engine room, which is going to come back into play.

I wonder if it is due to putting in the Cylon technology?

[Bad-example]

1 - No more Gaeta singing. Nice.

2 - The killing with the pen was LOL funny.

3 - "I'm coming for all of you!" Hilarious! They sure picked the right line to feature in the promos. And people say this show has no sense of humor.

[Edward64]

Damn, I'm gonna miss this show.

I am too but there is a prequel series 'Caprica' in the making. I don't think it'll have marines, battlestars etc. so not that optimistic but its something.
Caprica (series) - Battlestar Wiki (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Caprica_%28series%29)

Other than for the Baltar religious themes, I have really enjoyed this series and will purchase it when it comes out as a collection.

[Neon_Chaos]

Adama is a beast.

[Raiders Army]

Good show. We're finally caught up after having watched pretty much Season 3 and 4.0 beginning in January. I think the past two episodes have been the best of the series.

[RendeR]

I just watched the latest episode....god I love this universe. Kara kicking ass is so awesome =)

Anyone else as thrilled as I was that they finally fucking shot zarek? How that piece of shit ever got to where he was just floors me. I wish Geata could have been saved somehow but you simply can't pardon someone for out and out treason. He had to go.

[GrantDawg]

I just watched the latest episode....god I love this universe. Kara kicking ass is so awesome =)

Anyone else as thrilled as I was that they finally fucking shot zarek? How that piece of shit ever got to where he was just floors me. I wish Geata could have been saved somehow but you simply can't pardon someone for out and out treason. He had to go.


I was thrilled with both of them. Geata was a dangerous idiot if he thought giving Zarek power would be a good idea.

[Eaglesfan27]

I was thrilled with both of them. Geata was a dangerous idiot if he thought giving Zarek power would be a good idea.

Ditto. Those were both very satisfying deaths.

[Crapshoot]

No, Gaeta was a tragedy - that's the thing. He was genuinely doing what he tought was best for the fleet. As outside observers, we're conditioned to "Adama knows best", but from his perspective, the man was giving Cylon's access to everything. Moreover, look at what has happened to Gaeta, from New Caprica to losing his leg; the bitterness sets in at some point. Gaeta's story is one of the key tragedies, IMO.

[RendeR]

His story is indeed tragic, but more for the fact that he "lost faith" in his leaders. He began to doubt, and once doubt sets in even the best most noble intentioned people can be laid low.

or out an airlock or..something.

[ISiddiqui]

At least Gaeta seemed to make his peace with it in the end. He seemed to be fairly calm in his "confession" with Baltar and then right before he was about to get shot.

[Crapshoot]

Talking about 'Battlestar Galactica's' 'Blood on the Scales' with writer Michael Angeli | The Watcher (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-gaeta-blood-scales-angeli.html)

great read as always,

[kcchief19]

In what I assume is Universal's goal of striking while the iron is hot, the pilot for Caprica will be release on DVD April 21. Production on season one starts this summer and will start airing in 2010.

[flere-imsaho]

I told you people not all the pilots were with Gaeta! :p

Anyone have thoughts on what the damage was that Tyrol was looking at in a concerned fashion after he disabled the drive? I'm wondering if there is going to be some kind of lasting damage to the engines from that manuever.

My first thought was that it looked like damage from the claw of a Centurion, but honestly that doesn't make any sense.

Seems more likely, as I think someone else has suggested, that it could be some sort of metal fatigue.

Or is it a symbol? Does it look like the Temple of the Five?

Heh, one can speculate forever.... :D

[Thomkal]

I think the way he had to manually stop the FTL drive probably caused the damage, which I'm guessing means that aren't going to be able to jump.

[ISiddiqui]

I think it was more that Galactica is a REALLY old ship (remember it was to be a museum piece at the beginning of the miniseries) and all this action is causing it to come apart.

[BrianD]

I think it was more that Galactica is a REALLY old ship (remember it was to be a museum piece at the beginning of the miniseries) and all this action is causing it to come apart.

That was my thought as well. Metal fatigue...impending hull breach. My guess is that they are going to have to find a habitable planet ASAP and will lose the ability for inter-stellar travel while they enter a new dark age focusing on survival.

[Neon_Chaos]

I was kind of disappointed that they introduced the Gaeta-Hoshi dynamic in the webisodes and really didn't go anywhere with it. Apart from a bewildered look from Hoshi when Gaeta did the mutiny, their relationship didn't really play any part in the entire mutiny, even up to Gaeta's execution.

[kcchief19]

EIGHT???!!!????

Most revealing 23 minutes of the show thus far. Wow.

[Edward64]

Finally some answers ... unlike that "Lost" loser.

Here is the scifi forum link, I started getting lost on the explanation.

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2324536&st=580

[Eaglesfan27]

Great episode again. I can't wait for next week.

[Coffee Warlord]

Innnnnteresting.

[kcchief19]

Hmmm ... my initial search for Daniel in Battlestar wikiness returns one hit ... Lt. Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek ... the pilot Adama sent across the armistice line to spy on the cylons and was captured after Adama shot him down when Cylons attacked him. That was one year before the attack on the colonies and Adama believes the incident led to the holocaust (although it appears now that "John" orchestrated that). We don't know where Bulldog is. Same guy? Don't know. But apparently Starbuck is not Seven.

[Eaglesfan27]

Ellen described Daniel as "artistic, sensitive." From what I recall of the episode with Novacek, the actor didn't come across as either of those things. I'm guessing it is someone we haven't met.

[ISiddiqui]

Awesome, fraking awesome.

We get A LOT of the back story. The 13th tribe forgot how to resurrect after leaning to procreate, but had to re-learn because they knew of the impending catastrophe (their Cylon's rebelled?). They didn't have jump capability, so they reached the other 12 colonies while they were in the middle of a war, with the Final/First 5 stopped by offering the secrets of skinjobbin'.

They made the other 8, the first of the 8, John Cavil killed them, wiped their memories and made them live like humans so when they came back they realized that love shit was crap and would join him in his petty humanist desire for vengeance.

So the F5's creation turns on them. Sounds familiar.

Very cool episode!

[ISiddiqui]

Ellen described Daniel as "artistic, sensitive." From what I recall of the episode with Novacek, the actor didn't come across as either of those things. I'm guessing it is someone we haven't met.

It seemed to me that Daniel was destroyed prior to John's wiping the F5's memories and sending them into the general human population (starting with Tigh). Cain... er, John Cavil made Daniel the first victim of his hate.

Meaning, he ain't anyone we've seen (most likely).

[kcchief19]

Ellen described Daniel as "artistic, sensitive." From what I recall of the episode with Novacek, the actor didn't come across as either of those things. I'm guessing it is someone we haven't met.
It seemed to me that Daniel was destroyed prior to John's wiping the F5's memories and sending them into the general human population (starting with Tigh). Cain... er, John Cavil made Daniel the first victim of his hate.

Meaning, he ain't anyone we've seen (most likely).
From what we learned, there was the original Daniel and the copies John/Cavil destroyed. There could be just one Daniel, who could be resurrected upon death. Maybe Ellen doesn't know that the original Daniel survived and has been resurrected by John. John also has the ability to wipe memories and implant false ones. Bulldog was captured and held by the Cylons for three years, so that would certainly change make even a kind, artistic type murderous. Perhaps that was John's goal ... make Daniel suffer so he would hate humanity just like him. It fits.

It's very likely it's not him. But if Daniel is still around, I don't think it's a coincidence they share the same name.

[ISiddiqui]

You can be artistic and murderous ;). Maybe the sensitive part falls by the wayside.

But then, wouldn't Anders have remembered... oh wait, Daniel... he's that Bulldog guy.

[Tigercat]

My guess was echoed in that thread, somehow Kara is Daniel. Shes an artist, she was resurrected. Fits?

[Crapshoot]

I think Daniel is Kara's father. Remember, her mother never mentioned who it was.

[Edward64]

I was enjoying some of BSG's best of moments and had a thought.
WINNER: Death of the Pegasus | Best Space Battle | Best of Battlestar Poll | Battlestar Galactica | SCIFI.COM (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/bestof/index.php?sub=week02&clip=3)

We knew when (or at least I did) watching original Star Wars, Star Trek movies that, although the special effects was fun, it was somewhat 'hokey'? I always knew sooner or later something bigger and better would come along.

In watching the space battle clips in the above link, it got me thinking about the future. At this point with computer animation/graphics and special effects, how can it get better? It seems as if the movie special effects are at the top of their game right now.

[kcchief19]

There seems to be a lot of fandom jumping on the Daniel-is-Kara's-father theory, which makes me dubious because that's apparently where RDM wants us to go. There's also a Baltar-is-Daniel theory which includes Ellen disguising Daniel. That fits with because the Cylons with the humans were all intended to survive the holocaust and Caprica Six saved Baltar to make sure he surived when he should have been dead.

In perusing the SciFi boards, I also find myself in the group that was disappointed when we learned Ellen was the the Final Five but this episode made it all pay off. Ellen was perfect in that role.

[ISiddiqui]

Yah, Ellen was really awesome. It was amazing to think, 'that was Ellen' while watching it through?

[Crapshoot]

This is BSG at its best again - perhaps because they know its ending, but its frakking amazing.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

This show is really getting better as it goes on. With the quality with which it started that's really saying something. "The Final Episodes" have been really top-notch.

[Fonzie]

John Hodgman as the chipper neurosurgeon was a stroke of genius.

[Galaril]

Great episode. i guess Baltar is Daniel. He has got to be something since how the frak did he get off the Earth when the Nukes went off. I remember him having a front row seat and his house get vaporized? How many more episodes left 3?

[Raiders Army]

John Hodgman as the chipper neurosurgeon was a stroke of genius.

For sure. If the surgery had went awry, then we should've gotten a MAC to do it.

[Raiders Army]

Great episode. i guess Baltar is Daniel. He has got to be something since how the frak did he get off the Earth when the Nukes went off. I remember him having a front row seat and his house get vaporized? How many more episodes left 3?

Five right? They've shown five I think...at least that's what's sitting on our DVR.

[Edward64]

John Hodgman as the chipper neurosurgeon was a stroke of genius.

I actually thought his brevity was disjointed with the flow of the episode. IMO, poor choice.

After reading the scifi forum, I also agree that Anders remembering everything due to a bullet fragment in his head is somewhat too convenient and a cheap way out.

But hey ... all in all, am still greatly enjoying the season.

[kcchief19]

Five episodes left include the two-hour finale.

I like John Hodgman and I think I would have liked him in a different episode, but with so much going on he just seemed an odd distraction.

[Bad-example]

Well, someone programmed Starbuck to fly into the nebula and kill herself and set up a resurrection ship to bring her back (with clouded memories). So there must be something of this Daniel in her. The mind fuck scenes on New Caprica take on more importance now.

[Edward64]

From the scifi thread above. Not everyone agrees but this laid out the timeline/sequence for me so far.

I think that in order to understand this episode we need to remember the phrase – “all this has happened before and it will happen again”

What event is this phrase referring to? In my opinion it is children revolting against their creator.

I believe what prompted the mass exodus from Kobol was the first uprising of Cylons (if they were even called Cylons back then) against Humans.
So after the uprising humans and Cylons went each their own way. Humans to the 12 tribes and the Cylons to earth with the resurrection technology.
.
As time went by the “people” (Cylons) of earth abandon the resurrection technology once they started to procreate by themselves. Story is forgotten and eventually this “people” invent once again their own version of the centurions. And these new centurions are the ones that eventually revel against their creators and destroy earth.
So “it happened again” for a second time on earth.

So five “people” survive the holocaust because these five had re-discovered the resurrection technology. These five decide to travel back to the 12 colonies to prevent this from happening a third time but the trip back takes a long time and when they arrive to the colonies they find that it is too late because it has happened AGAIN for a third time. All 12 colonies are at war with the rebelled Cylons.

So the Five attempt to stop the war by making a deal with the Cylons. They agree to give them biological bodies and resurrection technology IF they stop the war. The Cylons agree and this marks the end of the first Cylon war and the beginning of the 40 year period in which the Cylons disappear.

A Fourth uprising of Cylons against humans happens “again” when the Cylons attack the twelve colonies for a second time. This attack is apparently led by Cavell (or John) in his quest for vengeance against humanity and the five. The five, by the time of the attack, had been murdered by Cavell introduced into human society with false memories as punishment for having created the biological Cylons in their image and with human weaknesses. The five survive the holocaust and eventually become part of the fleet.

So that’s my take on it.

[ISiddiqui]

Just a nitpick:

It's not really the 4th uprising of Cylons against humans, because he counts the 2nd uprising to be the revolt against the Cylons of Earth.

Though if you are counting that, then John's revolt against the F5 would be the 4th.

[kcchief19]

True, but then again we don't even know that. This could have been going on for thousands of years.

As much as we learned this week, I'm amazed at how many mysteries are still out there. We don't understand the Temple of Five and it's connection between the humans and the Cylons and why and how it was tied to the Final Five. Unless the Final Five Cylons have been doing this over and over again and don't realize it or haven't learned.

Does it make sense that 13 tribes went their separate ways from Kobol, yet thousands of years later the descendants of the 13th tribe of Cylons who rebelled against the other 12 tribes travel to the colonies to warn them? Does that make sense?

I'd have to go back and re-weatch some episodes. The remains on Earth -- is it possible that the remains that were found of Cylons were of the ones who rebelled and the human remains were all gone? That would make the Final Five were human ... until they learned resurrection and put themselves into Cylon bodies.

We have also not resolved what role religion plays in this. We've been so concentrated on whether people are Cylons ... what if they are actually descendants of the lords of Kobol? Maybe Starbuck isn't a Cylon .. maybe she's a deity. Same with Baltar and others, maybe even Adama.

I don't know ... too many loose ends.

[DataKing]

Great episode. i guess Baltar is Daniel. He has got to be something since how the frak did he get off the Earth when the Nukes went off. I remember him having a front row seat and his house get vaporized? How many more episodes left 3?

I, for one, have never been satisfied with the lack of explanation behind how Baltar survived the nukes. As far as how he got off of Caprica (I think that's what you meant above, rather than Earth), IIRC he got a spot on the Raptor that was given up by Helo.

As far as whether or not Baltar is Daniel, I'd have to go back and watch the episodes where Baltar interacts directly with the Cylons, both as President on New Caprica and at other times. There were a number of interactions between Baltar and Cavell that would have to be re-examined.

[Aylmar]

As far as whether or not Baltar is Daniel, I'd have to go back and watch the episodes where Baltar interacts directly with the Cylons, both as President on New Caprica and at other times. There were a number of interactions between Baltar and Cavell that would have to be re-examined.

I'm not sure that would help. If Baltar is Daniel, we can't be sure at what point in the writing process they decided it. If they wrote the scenes without knowing exactly what they wanted to do with Baltar (seems likely since most of his heavy interaction with Cavil was early in season three...they didn't even have the final five picked out yet), those scenes are likely useless from a data gathering perspective. They could go back and try and build off nuance from those scenes, but they're more likely to just tell the story as it stands now and forget the little things they think we will fill in on our own to mask late breaking story decisions.

The five can resurrect and in current form? How does Tigh look young then and age to mask his true identity to Adama all those years? If the final five age, why don't their children? The same type of limitation that prevents reproduction unless mated with one of the final five? The five must have farmed their bodies at the age they were when they rediscovered resurrection, right? They resurrect younger and then age to a point...and then download instead of dying of old age? It's a hole in the story created by the decision to make Tigh a Cylon. Perhaps they'll fill it...perhaps not. I'm sure we'll get some answers to some of the questions, but probably not all of them (what's the deal with Baltar's inner Six? Where was she when he was railing against God earlier this season? Why has Baltar been such a bit part this season after playing so massively in other seasons? Callis too expensive now that his career is taking off a bit thanks to this show?). Five episodes to find out.

[ISiddiqui]

From reading a bit from Ron Moore, it appears that they really didn't have it completely decided until fairly recently (Ellen being the 5th was decided when writing this season, IIRC), so even 3rd season interactions likely wouldn't have shown anything.

[ISiddiqui]

How does Tigh look young then and age to mask his true identity to Adama all those years? If the final five age, why don't their children? The same type of limitation that prevents reproduction unless mated with one of the final five? The five must have farmed their bodies at the age they were when they rediscovered resurrection, right? They resurrect younger and then age to a point...and then download instead of dying of old age? It's a hole in the story created by the decision to make Tigh a Cylon. Perhaps they'll fill it...perhaps not.

They mentioned something about how they didn't age because they were traveling at close to light speed when going across the wastes. It appears the F5 can age. Remember, John kills them and then blocks off their memories when he sends them down. Ellen does look younger when she resurrects than prior to her death (only so much makeup can do though).

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, some great stuff in the interview with BSG writers that Maureen Ryan did this week:

You asked, they answered: 'Battlestar Galactica' writers take on your 'No Exit' questions | The Watcher (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html)

[Aylmar]

They mentioned something about how they didn't age because they were traveling at close to light speed when going across the wastes. It appears the F5 can age. Remember, John kills them and then blocks off their memories when he sends them down. Ellen does look younger when she resurrects than prior to her death (only so much makeup can do though).

Yeah, but what I'm really talking about are the short scenes with a very young Tigh and a young Adama. That would imply that Tigh's baseline body is actually quite a bit younger than how it looks now, although when Ellen is drawing him, she is clearly drawing the modern Tigh and not what would have to be his younger model (complete with hair). I see in the article you posted (thanks, btw) that Jane tries to tie it all up nicely by saying that Saul's memories are implanted and not real. Still seems like a stretch to me. I'll have to rewatch and figure out who is actually remembering young Tigh. Saul or Adama?

John has the technology to block the memories of the individual copies he placed amongst the fleet (implying that he somehow altered their resurrection process) but didn't mine those memories to gain full understanding of his creators while he was blocking them? After all, his sadistic, petty nature coupled with his desire to know more about how to overcome the limits of his mortal body (which they have done a great job of demonstrating) should have made that a no brainer. No hurry...he's immortal, he can kill them (the FF) during the delving process if he wants...after all, they'll just resurrect. Seems almost out of character for him to not squeeze all he could out of them before releasing them into the world to "learn their lessons". I know, they drop the throw-away "tech has come a long way" line in there to make us believe that he couldn't access memories before...but I don't really buy it. So all he could do is force amnesia? He did help assemble the brains, nervous systems, and bodies of the seven remaining significant eight, right?

[Edward64]

Didn't really enjoy that episode at all. Once again stupid Baltar. I don't get the Ellen piece, you would think they would continue Ellen from last week's episode and not have her go 'schizo' again.

Oh well, going to check out the scifi thread and see what I missed.

[Edward64]

Yup, just came from there ... lots of people had complaints also.

[RendeR]

Must admit, I was underwhelmed this week =(

[Galaril]

Yes, that may have been one of the worst episodes in the 4 odd seaosn of the show if not the worst. I got no idea why they decided to revert Ellen back to the bitch role. One thing that I think was ok was getting rid of the Caprica baby since I think the Hera baby story line will be a better story line going down the strecth after spending so much plot and blood on her in Season 2 or 3.

[Tigercat]

I like the episode for what it did, and think it was a very important episode. It brought to the true spotlight what the "good" objective is probably going to be, bringing Cylon and Humans together as one people. The characters are turning the corner to reconcile what they are, what their prejudices and weaknesses are, and what they have to do to survive despite their limitations.

Ellen's Cylon persona and her psycho wife persona are both part of who she is, and she has to find a way to balance them. The memory wiped human personalities of the 5 were/are still true to their original personas, just as Boomer still acted like her model even when she didn't know she was a cylon. Ellen even said that her and Tigh had been fighting in a similar fashion for 1000s of years.

[kcchief19]

Yeah, this was clearly an exposition episode, just way too much exposition. I'm hoping it will pay off in the weeks ahead. Baltar has an all-chick army, the Final Five are now tied to the humans through Hera, the Galactica appears to be falling apart and Anders is back awake -- let's see what he knows.

I'm intrigued by the flash scene for next week of Tyrol and Boomer. Is this a flashback? Hmmm ...

[Bad-example]

Nice piano. :mad:

[Fonzie]

Not the most satisfying episode I've seen, and I'm having a particularly tough time following why Tyrol voted to leave Galactica.

It was nice to see Head-Six again.

[Eaglesfan27]

Not the most satisfying episode I've seen, and I'm having a particularly tough time following why Tyrol voted to leave Galactica.

It was nice to see Head-Six again.

Tyrol's vote to leave was my biggest gripe with the episode. I just didn't get his motivation for voting to leave unless it was to get away from Boomer, and even then I don't think it was consistent with his overall character as we know it. Seems like it was more of a matter of convenience to tie the vote at 2 and give the swing vote to Ellen. Other than that, I agree with others - not the most exciting episode but hopefully it will pay off in the future.

[Fonzie]

Yeah, Tyrol's decision just doesn't make much sense there, apart from being a plot advancing contrivance.

And while we're griping, how did Boomer find the fleet?

[Fonzie]

Dola-

I think we were given a gigantic tip in this episode, via the Starbuck/Tyrol bar scene. I don't think this is a "spoiler" per se, as it is simply my speculation, but I'll tag it as a spoiler anyways:

It seems to me that the *entire* purpose of that scene was for us to hear Starbuck say that seeing Tigh and Ellen reuniting at the Raptor was like seeing her parents make out.

PARENTS. If that word/sentence had no significance beyond the expression of some superficially felt disgust at sexuality expressed by the elderly, then I find it tough to believe that the writers/directors would bother with this scene at all. I think that scene gave us a very strong hint that Starbuck is "related" to them - probably via her father, who I (and many others) am/are guessing is Daniel.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, this was clearly an exposition episode, just way too much exposition.

Depends on how the rest of the season plays out, right? Maybe a good idea to cram a lot of exposition into one episode to allow the rest to have to be less cramming it all in.

Ellen's nature coming back out again was a nice touch. And Baltar thinking little Gaius was named after him, LOL!! Classic Baltar.

Though it seems he's going to have a nice humanitarian army. He just has to make sure it doesn't slip from him to Paula. But Gaius is a far better orator and more charismatic.

[ISiddiqui]

Dola-

I think we were given a gigantic tip in this episode, via the Starbuck/Tyrol bar scene.

Yeah, I actually thought that was pretty funny. Almost did a spit take with the Coke Zero I was drinking.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm having a particularly tough time following why Tyrol voted to leave Galactica.

From the Trib's interview with Jane Espenson:

Jane Espenson talks about 'Deadlock,' Friday's episode of 'Battlestar Galactica' | The Watcher (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-deadlock-jane-espenson.html#more)

Why does Galen Tyrol want to leave the fleet? I thought the fact that he took his old job as Chief meant that he wanted to stay with the Galactica.

He took his job back because Adama asked him to. But he is increasingly distanced from his old life.

[flere-imsaho]

Not surprised at all by Tyrol's decision. There's nothing for him in the fleet anymore but scorn from the humans because he's a Cylon. Wife dead, baby not his, a job only at Adama's leisure, estranged from his old friends. I'd leave too.

[Antmeister]

I know I am late to bringing this up, but I finally got to hear this podcast and delaying it for a bit. This is the most recent interview with Richard Hatch after his character's demise on the show. It was cool to hear how he approached this character and to what lengths he goes through to defend it.

Episode #66 - “Richard Hatch Interview” | Galactica Quorum - "It's a Frakkin' Podcast" (http://galacticaquorum.com/?p=130)

[RendeR]

Wow, ok, I listened to perhaps the first 4-5 minutes of that and I had to stop. Richard Hatch is such a weasely speaker. I feel slimey now after his defense of the Zareck character. He does go to great lengths to defend it but based on the information we have from the show his take on the character is nothing like what the backstory offers us.

He blew up a building and murdered a shitload of people in doing so, thats why he was in prison. Thats not a freedom fighter, it is, as everyone else on the show kept saying, a terrorist.

gah...I feel dirty now. I'm gonna go take a shower. ;)

[flere-imsaho]

I wonder if Tyrol's eventually going to find out that Tory killed Cally. Given (especially) the news from Anders that Tory & Tyrol used to be an item thousands of years ago, it could get interesting.

Might also change his mind on staying with the Cylons.

Maybe Tyrol surreptitiously becomes Galactica's Hybrid, tells everyone to fuck off out of the ship, and then flies on into the horizon.... :D

[Crapshoot]

Richard Hatch is just... creepy. Read up a little on how deeply he bought into the BSG bit; he is the character he's playing, not more than that.

[Edward64]

Not sure I understood it all, have to rewatch it at 12am and check out the scifi thread ... but pretty cool episode.

I think this means Starbuck is the daughter of Daniel?
Why do they keep doing this to the chief? I was so happy for him!
and ... no Baltar.

[ISiddiqui]

Well frak me that was awesome. Started out slow, but what payoff! Seems like we got verification that Daniel (ie, the 7) was Starbuck's dad (too much alcohol will make you start hallucinating your father folks!). And Hera knew the All Along the Watchtower too it seems.

Though Hera is, of course, with Boomer, who, in leaving, fraked up the ship pretty bad. WTG Chief!

I wonder if Ellen was right and that was Cavil's plan all along. Or was Boomer just improvising?

I guess this means Starbuck is a hybrid. So that's two. Her and Hera.

Oh, and nice line about when Tigh went to see his dead son. Eyes open... kinda like Anders is now. And some talk about Anders rebooting... hmmm.

[ISiddiqui]

I think this means Starbuck is the daughter of Daniel?

I think this actually confirms that's the case.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh... and did Roslin just die at the end?!

[kcchief19]

Well, I suppose that's a HUGE hint at who Starbuck's father is. Interesting to see how this plays out.

The scenes from next week are interesting. Is that someone being resurrected? Uh ... and it kind of looked like Anders. Hmmmm ...

[kcchief19]

Why do they keep doing this to the chief? I was so happy for him!
Yeah, I bought into Boomer too. She's a frakked up chick. She better be lucky the Galactica is falling apart because if Tyrol, Helo and Adama ever get a hold of her, she ain't going out the airlock. It will be a lot worse than that.
Oh... and did Roslin just die at the end?!
I don't think so. Pretty sure she'll make it to the end of the finale. There does seem to be some sort of connection between Hera and Roslin.
Richard Hatch is just... creepy. Read up a little on how deeply he bought into the BSG bit; he is the character he's playing, not more than that.
He's more sad than creepy. He's the guy who was homecoming king and that was the highlight of his life and he couldn't get over it. He thought the first Battlestar Galactica was his ticket -- everyone thought BG was going to be a smash, and it was the most expensive TV pilot made to date -- and even sometime after that. Then the show crashed and burned. He always believed it was going to come back and wrote novels and even tried to produce his revival movie with original cast members continuing the story. He even denounced the new version until they bought ... err, brought ... him on board as a cast member. This is is his biggest paying job since the original.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think so. Pretty sure she'll make it to the end of the finale. There does seem to be some sort of connection between Hera and Roslin

Probably, but what a mindfrak that would be.

[Neon_Chaos]

There does seem to be some sort of connection between Hera and Roslin.

Hera's hybrid blood runs through Roslin's veins, used as the first cure for her cancer.

[Raiders Army]

He's more sad than creepy. He's the guy who was homecoming king and that was the highlight of his life and he couldn't get over it. He thought the first Battlestar Galactica was his ticket -- everyone thought BG was going to be a smash, and it was the most expensive TV pilot made to date -- and even sometime after that. Then the show crashed and burned. He always believed it was going to come back and wrote novels and even tried to produce his revival movie with original cast members continuing the story. He even denounced the new version until they bought ... err, brought ... him on board as a cast member. This is is his biggest paying job since the original.

Good call. He's also probably pissed that Dirk Benedict got the A-Team and the name Richard Hatch will forever be linked to the naked gay guy who won the first Survivor.

Just got around to seeing Friday's episode tonight. Good stuff and I'm glad they're ending it this season. At the beginning of the episode, I was thinking that the storylines are getting a little tangled and maybe difficult to manage. Boomer and Tyrol's storyline has a bit of history to it that was a little ignored throughout the last season it seemed...but that made his motivation to help her seem more real considering everything he's been through and how she was his true love.

Was the Cylon delegate Caprica Six?

[ISiddiqui]

No, I think it was another Six. They called her by another name (which I can't remember now).

[Tigercat]

Did Tyrol kill that 8? At first I was pissed off at what they did to the character, because I thought he did murder that 8. But if he knowingly just knocked her out to buy Boomer time, which I am leaning towards now, I could live with that.

I just think its a slight to the character if he killed her; and I am also a little concerned that the show's narrative didn't seem to care if she was dead or not. (That's almost as bad as having Tyrol kill her, saying it doesn't matter what he did to her.) It may be something that will be fully addressed next week though.

[Crapshoot]

Battlestar Galactica-ish: The Battlestar Galactica Reboot You Didn't See (http://io9.com/5162127/the-battlestar-galactica-reboot-you-didnt-see)

just watch

[Neon_Chaos]

I can't believe we're only 3 episodes away from THE END!

Any news on how the final two episodes are going to play out? Is it true that they're going to air it as two seperate halves of a three-hour series finale?

[Neon_Chaos]

No, I think it was another Six. They called her by another name (which I can't remember now).

Sonja.

[ISiddiqui]

I can't believe we're only 3 episodes away from THE END!

Any news on how the final two episodes are going to play out? Is it true that they're going to air it as two seperate halves of a three-hour series finale?

I think I heard is that the 13th will be the first hour of the finale and then a 2 hour "movie" to finish it off on the 20th.

And it seems on Sci-Fi's online schedule that's the case, with Daybreak, pt. 1 being shown on the 13th and Daybreak pt. 2 (2 hours) is being shown on the 20th.

[flere-imsaho]

Well frak me that was awesome. Started out slow, but what payoff! Seems like we got verification that Daniel (ie, the 7) was Starbuck's dad (too much alcohol will make you start hallucinating your father folks!).

Here's my guess (not all my own original thinking, btw): A Daniel escapes what Cavil does to the 7s, becomes Starbuck's father, and then leaves and somehow decides to find Earth, and does.

This Daniel finds technology that predates even the original 13th tribe and can be used to "call" to members of the 13th tribe (i.e. All Along the Watchtower). This Daniel is also responsible for resurrecting Starbuck after she crashed on Earth. This Daniel is also responsible for the "head-characters" that various people have had, along with Roslin's visions, etc....

Basically, Daniel as deus ex machina. Eventually, he'll call them to either a) the original Earth or b) their new future home. After the inevitable showdown with Cavil, of course.

I wonder if Ellen was right and that was Cavil's plan all along. Or was Boomer just improvising?

I could see Boomer not being able to bring herself to let Ellen be killed by Cavil (original "skinjob" programming by Cavil here). In this instance she'd be looking for a way to escape Galactica (of course), but would know she'd need to bring something of value back to Cavil to avoid being killed by him herself. Hera would be enough. Hera + Tyrol would have been more than enough.

[ISiddiqui]

So Baltar's arrogance revels to the fleet that Kara is a zombie or vampire. Good going, Gaius.

And Galactica is to be retired. Seems from the promos for next week that Galactica is going to be used on one last mission... going up against Cavil's forces to get Hera back. Should be damned fun!

[Edward64]

Somewhat slow episode but nice build up to the finale. It would be nice if they had the 'final battle' 2-3 episodes before the end and let us experience/enjoy the 'after' when they find a place to settle down (ex. opera house planet?).

Anyone remember ST Voyager. It was they finally got home and it ended ... no backstory.

So Baltar's arrogance revels to the fleet that Kara is a zombie or vampire. Good going, Gaius.
That slap was so weak, too girly ... and this was from somewhat doing her thing in the toilet with Baltar shaving.

And Galactica is to be retired. Seems from the promos for next week that Galactica is going to be used on one last mission... going up against Cavil's forces to get Hera back. Should be damned fun!
Should be fun.

[ISiddiqui]

That slap was so weak, too girly ... and this was from somewhat doing her thing in the toilet with Baltar shaving.

Seemed like it was done for show or half heartedly. Starbuck knew Baltar would spread it around (its Baltar!). I think part of her wanted it out in the open, and the other half didn't.

And a good open faced slap is a great drama :D.

[ISiddiqui]

Awesome time chart on the BSG universe:

http://www.ackthud.net/jont/2009/Misc/bsgtimeline.jpg

[Fonzie]

Neat to see the old Centurion Raiders at the "colony." Nice touch.

[RendeR]

Awesome time chart on the BSG universe:

http://www.ackthud.net/jont/2009/Misc/bsgtimeline.jpg


That is awesome =)


God I cannot wait for a full blown 4 season +movies DVD pack to come out. I will own this series and spend endless hours rewatching it in marathons for the rest of my days.

Best. SCI. FI. EPIC. EVA!

[ISiddiqui]

Rack 'em up. Seems like everything is set up for an action packed 2 hour finale next week.

Some backstory of pre-fall Caprica and getting every set... getting Galactica cleaned up and then ready to roll.

[Raiders Army]

I honestly thought that the drunk driver that killed Laura Roslin's dad and sisters was going to be someone we knew.

Ahhhh....looks to be a great finale. I hope they jam everything including the kitchen sink in, but make it not seem like they're jamming everything including the kitchen sink in.

[samifan24]

So I watched tonight's episode without having seen any episodes since the 4th episode of this season (I think) and man was I confused. I'll have to get caught up but it was interesting to see that they made Kara a Cylon.

[ISiddiqui]

I liked the flashbacks showing the motivation for some of the folks to join up (though I hope they didn't foreshadow who was going to die next week!)

[ISiddiqui]

So I watched tonight's episode without having seen any episodes since the 4th episode of this season (I think) and man was I confused. I'll have to get caught up but it was interesting to see that they made Kara a Cylon.

She isn't really.

[samifan24]

She isn't really.

Wait, what?

Like I said, I'm really confused. The last episodes I watched were the reveal of the final 4 Cylons, then the one where crazy Presidential aide threw Callie out the airlock and lastly the boring one with Baltar and his stupid cult.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, you need to watch all the mid episodes.

She's not the 5th.

[Raiders Army]

I really thought Gaius was going to volunteer to go.

[Eaglesfan27]

I really thought Gaius was going to volunteer to go.

I didn't. He is who we thought he was, a selfish prick.

[ISiddiqui]

I really thought Gaius was going to volunteer to go.

If you saw the preview for next week:

you'll see he did... he's carrying a gun on Galactica

[Raiders Army]

I didn't. He is who we thought he was, a selfish prick.

Considering the conversation he had with Lee and Lee asking him if there was one thing that he had done without being selfish...

To thine own self be true...

And ISiddiqui, I'm not surprised by that either.

[Neon_Chaos]

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again...

Can't wait for the FINAL EPISODE!

So say we all!

[Raiders Army]

We watched The Last Frakking Special last night. Good stuff on there for us since we're "new" to the universe. My wife made the comment last night that we just started the series last May/June and caught up in February.

[ISiddiqui]

Last Frakking Special was pretty cool, I have to say. I especially liked the casting part of it. Lawless, using the rest of the crew's suspicion about her, was brilliant.

[timmynausea]

We got caught up on season 4 (4.0 to present) over the past few weeks in time for the finale. I never would've dreamed BSG would be such a good show. I remember being pretty skeptical on giving it a chance back in '05 or so and thinking it was 50/50 that I'd watch past the mini-series or maybe the first couple of episodes. I was wrong, of course, and liked it immediately, but this last season is really raising the bar for scifi/epic/myth shows and movies. Can't wait for the finale.

[Bad-example]

This show has been a pleasant diversion but I really can't believe how many people think it is so very great. I for one will be happy when it is finished. Unfortunately, the next show will no doubt suffer from the same (apparently invisible to most) flaws.

[Neon_Chaos]

This show has been a pleasant diversion but I really can't believe how many people think it is so very great. I for one will be happy when it is finished. Unfortunately, the next show will no doubt suffer from the same (apparently invisible to most) flaws.

Different folks, different strokes.

[Bad-example]

Different folks, different strokes.

Yeah, yeah. Still, this show's fanatical following is a real head scratcher for me.

[ISiddiqui]

I find Joss Whedon's fanatical following head scratching... but like said, different folks, different strokes.

[RendeR]

Yeah, yeah. Still, this show's fanatical following is a real head scratcher for me.


Some reasons for the following:

30-40 somethings who grew up with the original and loved it as well, see this as a huge jump forward and BONUS its got an actual plot =)

Its not JUST a sci-fi show, its a very solidly handled drama as well.

They took the best ideas from many different sci-fi series, mythology, spaceships, war, relationship, human condition,and the generic fear of the unknown and rolled it into one very superior special effects program which MOST sci-fi series tended to fail at at some point.


Same sort of thing with Whedon's Firefly/Serenity they took lots of lessons from the past and avoided the pitfalls. It just grabs people.



I'm actually interested to hear what people think are the real flaws? I see a few but consider them extremely minor.

[ISiddiqui]

Also don't forget that this is a drama set in a sci-fi setting, but a darling of critics the likes of which no sci-fi show has ever been. Time Magazine named it their #1 show on TV a few years back and it won a Peabody.

So it is something that is acknowledged to be of high quality.

[Bad-example]

I'm actually interested to hear what people think are the real flaws? I see a few but consider them extremely minor.

Not the first (or second) time I have listed the biggest flaws. The worst:

The Hummer. One episode had a full on Hummer, complete with rectangular metal license plate and standard headlights.

The Piano. Invented about 300 years ago, any idea how one got aboard an interstellar spacecraft? Right, it couldn't.

The Clothing. They are going to have to come up with a tremendous finale to explain how contemporary fashions from Macy's got onto Galactica. Men in silk neckties and women in stockings and skirts. Business suits. All civilian clothes are clearly modern Earth garb. Will they try and explain it or ignore it, basically admitting they didn't have the budget to do a quality job of costuming?

There are a bunch more. Hell, in the pilot, Rosalynn's seat on her presidential shuttle is clearly a modern day recliner, complete with side handle for reclining.

[RendeR]

Not the first (or second) time I have listed the biggest flaws. The worst:

The Hummer. One episode had a full on Hummer, complete with rectangular metal license plate and standard headlights.

The Piano. Invented about 300 years ago, any idea how one got aboard an interstellar spacecraft? Right, it couldn't.

The Clothing. They are going to have to come up with a tremendous finale to explain how contemporary fashions from Macy's got onto Galactica. Men in silk neckties and women in stockings and skirts. Business suits. All civilian clothes are clearly modern Earth garb. Will they try and explain it or ignore it, basically admitting they didn't have the budget to do a quality job of costuming?

There are a bunch more. Hell, in the pilot, Rosalynn's seat on her presidential shuttle is clearly a modern day recliner, complete with side handle for reclining.


SO your only argument is that a "human-type" race, calling themselves humans, on a show with no direct link to Our reality in any way, is depicted with items and clothing that we use day to day? You're assuming they're looking for OUR earth, that they're somehow connected to OUR reality. The show never states that at all.

I think that problem is yours, not the shows. You are telling me that a technologically advanced race would not invent a large boxed string instrument?

They can't invent an armored fighting vehicle?

They can't create modernistic clothing and fashion styles?

Why must you require they be completely and totally alien to what you know and experience? Why can't you as the viewer remove reality from the show you experience?

As I said above, this isn't the shows flaw, this is your inability to step outside your own existance and into a different one without drawing comparisons.

They drive a military truck, they play a musical instrument, they dress nice.

Its not a real tough sell unless you make it one.


Many apologies if this came out sounding rude at all, I do not intend it so, my kids are making me furious right now and I think it may have rolled over a bit. I'm just trying to state my opinion of the stated issue.

[SFL Cat]

This show gives me a headache. Carry on.

[Bad-example]

Maybe they will come up with a finale that explains all the apparent errors. But honestly, if you can't see how out of place a modern piano and contemporary fashions are on this show, I guess my point is just lost on you.

Rock on.



SO your only argument is that a "human-type" race, calling themselves humans, on a show with no direct link to Our reality in any way, is depicted with items and clothing that we use day to day? You're assuming they're looking for OUR earth, that they're somehow connected to OUR reality. The show never states that at all.

I think that problem is yours, not the shows. You are telling me that a technologically advanced race would not invent a large boxed string instrument?

They can't invent an armored fighting vehicle?

They can't create modernistic clothing and fashion styles?

Why must you require they be completely and totally alien to what you know and experience? Why can't you as the viewer remove reality from the show you experience?

As I said above, this isn't the shows flaw, this is your inability to step outside your own existance and into a different one without drawing comparisons.

They drive a military truck, they play a musical instrument, they dress nice.

Its not a real tough sell unless you make it one.


Many apologies if this came out sounding rude at all, I do not intend it so, my kids are making me furious right now and I think it may have rolled over a bit. I'm just trying to state my opinion of the stated issue.

[flounder]

I know what you mean man. I was watching the Tudors and Henry VIII's cloak was sewn with an obvious overlock stitch. HELLO!!!11! The overlock stitch wasn't invented until 1877 by Joseph M. Merrow and the Marrow Machine Company. UNLESS YOUR COSTUMES ARE HAND STITCHED BY FRAKKING 8 YEAR OLDS DYING FROM THE BLACK PLAGUE, YOUR SHOW SUCKS SHOWTIME!!!111!!

[SnowMan]

They should all talk in an alien language. No subtitles allowed, after all, we wouldn't know the language and couldn't translate it.

[flounder]

So they should talk like people on Earth? Clearly an alien race would have some sort of telepathy. They should just stare at each other all the time.

Also, what's with the actors? They are clearly people from 21st century Earth. Until they cast some sort of energy being from planet Zogthnar, I think I'll pass.

[Bad-example]

:rolleyes:

[Raiders Army]

Not the first (or second) time I have listed the biggest flaws. The worst:

The Hummer. One episode had a full on Hummer, complete with rectangular metal license plate and standard headlights.

The Piano. Invented about 300 years ago, any idea how one got aboard an interstellar spacecraft? Right, it couldn't.

The Clothing. They are going to have to come up with a tremendous finale to explain how contemporary fashions from Macy's got onto Galactica. Men in silk neckties and women in stockings and skirts. Business suits. All civilian clothes are clearly modern Earth garb. Will they try and explain it or ignore it, basically admitting they didn't have the budget to do a quality job of costuming?

There are a bunch more. Hell, in the pilot, Rosalynn's seat on her presidential shuttle is clearly a modern day recliner, complete with side handle for reclining.
I can agree with this and have thought it many times as well. I haven't let that suspension of disbelief let me not enjoy the show though.

I was thinking earlier this year that perhaps this civilization has made periodic contact with Earth and thus has given Earth the same things they had.

That was dashed away when we found out Earth was the Cylon's 13th colony. :)

Whatever. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the show.

[RendeR]

Maybe they will come up with a finale that explains all the apparent errors. But honestly, if you can't see how out of place a modern piano and contemporary fashions are on this show, I guess my point is just lost on you.

Rock on.


You're not trying to see my PoV here, while I'm at least understanding yours.

You're saying "how could they have our specific stuff if they're so far away or so ahead or behind our reality time-wise. it doesn't make any sense and its stupid"

What I'm trying to explain is that there is no connection, nothing directed or implied so far in this show that links it to our world or our reality in any way. When you seperate the two entirely its pretty simple to see the piano, the hummer and the clothing as what they are intended to be, representations. They weren't driving a Hummer, they were driving a military truck. The show simply used a Hummer as an obvious representation.

Now if you have some reason to believe there IS a direct link to us and our time and our world, something perhaps I haven't seen or read yet that eludes to them finding US in the finale? Please let me know. Lacking that or some really ridiculous timewarp schizm in the finale (which would indeed ruin things for me) I can't see or understand why it bothers you so much? I'd like to, but as you say it seems difficult to explain?

[RendeR]

:rolleyes:

As obnoxious as those posts were they make a valid point. Those are simply extrapolations of your position taken to the extreme. If the piano and hummer bother you, why doesn't the ships themselves or the fact that they breathe oxygen or that they're bipedal?

I guess its a matter of where do you draw the line? I don't see why the line matters if you're paying attention to the story itself and not just the props.

[Bad-example]

As obnoxious as those posts were they make a valid point.

No.

[timmynausea]

I hate to pile on, but when you said "flaws" I assumed you were talking about plot holes or inconsistencies - some complaint with the story. I don't see any of the things you've mentioned as flaws even slightly, though I guess I could imagine the hummer bothering some.

[flere-imsaho]

I can agree with this and have thought it many times as well. I haven't let that suspension of disbelief let me not enjoy the show though.

:+1:

I think any good sci-fi show/movie has to make some sort of concessions like this for "do-ability". If you have everything be completely alien, then you risk making immersion into the show (i.e. understanding what is what, intrinsically) very difficult for the audience.

In my opinion this is part of what makes good sci-fi hard to do, visually. If you decide to go all "alien", then you need to make sure you have a certain consistency within that "alien-ness".

Arguably, though, this is one of BSG's strengths. It makes the day-to-day setup of its internal universe very familiar to the audience, and then places a wildly fictional narrative on top of that.

[flere-imsaho]

dola - I'm skeptical that they're going to resolve all the unanswered questions in the 2-hour finale. The setup for the finale looks like it's going to totally revolve around an assault on the Colony. If that's the case, I don't see how a lot of these questions get resolved without some deus ex machina (presumably in humanoid form) bringing things to a screeching halt for the purpose of exposition. Which, honestly, would be a bit boring.

Moore is on record elsewhere as saying that while many answers will be tied up in the finale, they wrote the finale more with a view towards the characters and less about closing the plot lines. In fact, he's basically said he doesn't care about tying up all the plot lines. So....

Unanswered questions (for me):

So, who is this Daniel guy?

Was Earth really Earth?

Does the BSG universe exist in our universe? If so, when were we (or will be?)

Who/what are the "head" characters?

What is Starbuck?

What's behind the "song" that's led them around the galaxy and to "Earth" and clearly isn't done leaving behind clues?

Will Galen ever learn that Tori airlocked Cally? Will he care?

And I'm sure there are plenty of others....

[Bad-example]

I hate to pile on, but when you said "flaws" I assumed you were talking about plot holes or inconsistencies - some complaint with the story. I don't see any of the things you've mentioned as flaws even slightly, though I guess I could imagine the hummer bothering some.

You don't see the existence of an 88 ivory key piano as out of place?

Honestly, I envy people like RA that can notice large inconsistencies in a show or movie and not roll their eyes and fart in the general direction of the screen.

[RendeR]

No.


This doesn't make it so. your objections are no more valid or less valid than those extreme examples, they mean the same thing.

Please, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm honestly wanting to understand why representations of things are so important, help me understand why it bothers you.

[RendeR]

You don't see the existence of an 88 ivory key piano as out of place?

Honestly, I envy people like RA that can notice large inconsistencies in a show or movie and not roll their eyes and fart in the general direction of the screen.


What I'm trying to grasp is how these things are "inconsistent"? why is a musical instrument out of place? The piano itself is irrelevant to the story, the hummer was irrelevant to the story the clothes are totally irrelevant to the story.

THIS is the root of the problem. I'm trying to understand why you're so stuck on "things" and not focused on the story itself? I'm just confused by it I guess.

[RendeR]

Sorry if I seem like a pit bull shaking a bone here...I'm also posting in the Pope is a dipshit thread and its frustrating to discuss obvious facts with religious intent. I guess I see this discussion at least as one where I can come to grasp the actual meaning behind the other side's opinion =)

[flere-imsaho]

You don't see the existence of an 88 ivory key piano as out of place?

To be honest, I thought the creation of a bar in the first place was kind of out of place but, whatever. I figured the piano was merely a plot device and just ran with it.

[SFL Cat]

Some reasons for the following:

30-40 somethings who grew up with the original and loved it as well, see this as a huge jump forward and BONUS its got an actual plot =)

Couldn't disagree more. I'd still take the original, cheese and all, over this one. The only thing I'd give this series hands down over the original is the calibre of acting, and even then, only certain individuals. Special effects are generally better too, although if you can't top the ones in the original series 30 years later, you might as well hang it up.


Its not JUST a sci-fi show, its a very solidly handled drama as well.


It has sci-fi trappings, but at its heart, it isn't really sci-fi IMO. Not really drama either. More like a melodramatic soap opera set in space.


Same sort of thing with Whedon's Firefly/Serenity they took lots of lessons from the past and avoided the pitfalls. It just grabs people.

At least Firefly had likeable characters that you cared about. If the entire fleet had been blown up in the pilot, I wouldn't have cared.


I'm actually interested to hear what people think are the real flaws? I see a few but consider them extremely minor.

I'm by no means a regular viewer, but here we go...

why would a distant civilization even have stuff that looked remotely like our stuff. And it drive me nuts whenever I see something that is clearly developed on Earth. They writers take the time to think up games that we do not have but they all dress just like my mom and dad!

We have a civilization that has FTL and anti-radiation medication, but can't create their own water nor have a cure for cancer.

The original show was much better at being sci-fi. The new show seems to be all about dysfunctional relationships, what most people today like to call "drama," and they can't even create a new mythos for the characters. It's a mini-United States with terrorist infiltration problems...a freakin' Jack Ryan novel in space, only the enemy are angsty teenagers in sexy bodies desperate to prove themselves by getting laid and pregnant by the enemy.

[RendeR]

To be honest, I thought the creation of a bar in the first place was kind of out of place but, whatever. I figured the piano was merely a plot device and just ran with it.


Now here I can say I agree. I wasn't a fan of the bar. My biggest reasoning "where the frak is all the grain coming from for the liquor?" I don't recall seeing an agro ship in the various fleet shots and the only one that might have been so was blown out of the sky over New Caprica.

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, the limitless supply of alcohol in general has been a bit of an eyebrow-raiser.

[Bad-example]

THIS is the root of the problem. I'm trying to understand why you're so stuck on "things" and not focused on the story itself? I'm just confused by it I guess.

I am just one of those people that can't silence his inner critic. Shit that clearly doesn't belong bothers me.

Remember the Simpsons episode when the family is watching a Zorro movie? Poor Lisa notices huge inconsistencies, and when she tries to tell Bart he replies, "Quiet! Here come the ninjas!"

That is the way I feel. I am Lisa in a room full of Barts.

Again, I envy those that can shut off the inner critical voice. That is my issue. But it doesn't change the bad art direction BSG has consistently displayed.

[timmynausea]

You don't see the existence of an 88 ivory key piano as out of place?

Couldn't you come up with these questions for every scifi project? Concessions have to be made to tell these kinds of stories - some for financial reasons (building a new stringed instrument and/or vehicle would've been much more expensive and time consuming.) Others are just for reasons of making the story accessible - Luke Skywalker has a fairly common, biblical first name and speaks English for the audience's sake.

It's clear to me that a big part of BSG is that the characters are human and do have so much in common with us, so I really have no problem whatsoever with the things you've mentioned. Of all things to not believe - including flesh and blood robots that are biologically identical to humans, have free will and can (could) respawn endlessly, FTL drives, a woman President, etc. - it's the invention of the piano that you can't believe?

[Bad-example]

Couldn't you come up with these questions for every scifi project? Concessions have to be made to tell these kinds of stories - some for financial reasons (building a new stringed instrument and/or vehicle would've been much more expensive and time consuming.)

Yes, they lacked the budget to do a proper job. So they went cheap and that shows. Most other series avoid giant gaffes like that.

Of all things to not believe - including flesh and blood robots that are biologically identical to humans, have free will and can (could) respawn endlessly, FTL drives, a woman President, etc. - it's the invention of the piano that you can't believe?

The piano was invented just 300 years ago.The idea that someone centuries and light years removed from Earth also invented the piano is just ridiculous. Keyboard instruments of some kind, sure. But an exact duplicate of a modern piano, complete with black and white ivories...no.

[RendeR]

Couldn't disagree more. I'd still take the original, cheese and all, over this one. The only thing I'd give this series hands down over the original is the calibre of acting, and even then, only certain individuals. Special effects are generally better too, although if you can't top the ones in the original series 30 years later, you might as well hang it up.



It has sci-fi trappings, but at its heart, it isn't really sci-fi IMO. Not really drama either. More like a melodramatic soap opera set in space.



At least Firefly had likeable characters that you cared about. If the entire fleet had been blown up in the pilot, I wouldn't have cared.



I'm by no means a regular viewer, but here we go...

why would a distant civilization even have stuff that looked remotely like our stuff. And it drive me nuts whenever I see something that is clearly developed on Earth. They writers take the time to think up games that we do not have but they all dress just like my mom and dad!

We have a civilization that has FTL and anti-radiation medication, but can't create their own water nor have a cure for cancer.

The original show was much better at being sci-fi. The new show seems to be all about dysfunctional relationships, what most people today like to call "drama," and they can't even create a new mythos for the characters. It's a mini-United States with terrorist infiltration problems...a freakin' Jack Ryan novel in space, only the enemy are angsty teenagers in sexy bodies desperate to prove themselves by getting laid and pregnant by the enemy.


Interesting points, I admit. Its fascinating to see different views on specific items:

The effects are a thousand times better than the old show. If you disagree with that we might as well stop now because its not worth discussing anything else if you can't agree with that.

The Original show was badly written, badly directed, badly produced and the acting lagged far behind all of these things. Even Lorne Green, whom I loved dearly as an actor, was terrible.

Drama, sci-fi, melodrama, take your pick if you don't like the characters and can't relate to them somehow then its not the show for you. I can't see a lot of flaw in the characters with the glaring exception of Geata. They ruined what I thought was a fantastic character there. So I'll give you a point for characters (Geata and throw in Zarek, god I hated Zarek)

The "they have X and Y but not Z and T" bit I find rather specious. We have nuclear energy and can travel in space, but we can't create water or cure cancer either. Every civilization has their boons and their problems. Theirs are just what they are.

The mythos and government items are straight from the original show. You can't laude something in the old series and shit on it in the new one when they are the exact same things.

The original BSG, Star Trek and Star Wars were all the same as this series as far as "Being Sci-Fi" go. Science Fiction trappings around the same angst ridden melodramatic trappings that we live with every day. THe original that you find so superior was precisely the same as this one when it came to the stories. All about relationships (Apollo losing his wife, Starbucks womanizing, Adama and Apollo's father son relationship) its no different now than it was then. This version of teh series takes the storyline a lot more seriously and focuses more specifically on real issues in our day, but other than the tone of the show they are both the same on that score.

And then we come back to B-E's issue, appearances. I don;t understand why the "land Rover" from the original series is any better than the military truck (aka the Hummer) used on Caprica? There was a Piano on board the Rising star in the original show, it was an electronic multi-board used in techno-pop music, but its was very clearly something from right here in the real world.

I guess I'm still at a loss on that one. they're just "things" they are there to represent a tool or whatever they need to in the show. the "things" would only be badly chosen if they didn;t fit the "styling" of the scene. The Hummer was a ground truck, they were a group of resistance fighters who looted an old army base, what did you want them to find? Landspeeders?

Maybe I'm just more easily carried off by a storyline than most. *shrug* I'll stop now and hope to see something that helps me see your PoV better.

[RendeR]

Couldn't you come up with these questions for every scifi project? Concessions have to be made to tell these kinds of stories - some for financial reasons (building a new stringed instrument and/or vehicle would've been much more expensive and time consuming.) Others are just for reasons of making the story accessible - Luke Skywalker has a fairly common, biblical first name and speaks English for the audience's sake.

It's clear to me that a big part of BSG is that the characters are human and do have so much in common with us, so I really have no problem whatsoever with the things you've mentioned. Of all things to not believe - including flesh and blood robots that are biologically identical to humans, have free will and can (could) respawn endlessly, FTL drives, a woman President, etc. - it's the invention of the piano that you can't believe?


I think this is his real point, its supposed to be a fictional universe so the REAL items are what is out of place to him. Its like creating a fictional FOF league but tossing in Butkis, Manning and Taylor to fill out some positions.

[RendeR]

Yes, they lacked the budget to do a proper job. So they went cheap and that shows. Most other series avoid giant gaffes like that.



The piano was invented just 300 years ago.The idea that someone centuries and light years removed from Earth also invented the piano is just ridiculous. Keyboard instruments of some kind, sure. But an exact duplicate of a modern piano, complete with black and white ivories...no.


This is where you lose credibility. Have you ever watched Sci fi shows before? The cereal box tricorder from Star Trek the orgiinal series? the aforementioned techno-keyboard from the original BSG? The Baseball and baseball game on DS9? Every single series has this exact same issue. You can't piss on this series for something every single one has done. If the things they were "skimping" on were really important to the story then I might be able to agree a litle bit, but nothing that you've pointed out has ANYthing to do with the real storyline. They're all totally secondary to the scenes as they happen. If the Base ship was play by two space shuttles glued bottom to bottom I could see an issue, thats a major item in the show. The clothes they wear? what real difference does it make? If they were wearing khaki shorts and tropical shirts while flying the vipers I might see an issue. Why does the general civilian attire make any real difference?

[Bad-example]

This is where you lose credibility. Have you ever watched Sci fi shows before? The cereal box tricorder from Star Trek the orgiinal series? the aforementioned techno-keyboard from the original BSG? The Baseball and baseball game on DS9? Every single series has this exact same issue.

The tricorder? Cheaply made, yes. But it wasn't a modern day tricorder somehow out of place centuries in the future. It was just a cheaply made prop.

The techno-keyboard? Agreed.

The baseball? Not out of place at all. It was an antique.

If the things they were "skimping" on were really important to the story then I might be able to agree a litle bit, but nothing that you've pointed out has ANYthing to do with the real storyline. They're all totally secondary to the scenes as they happen.

Not sure what your point here is. The piano clearly is out of place on Galactica. What does "important to the story" have to do with bad art direction?

If the Base ship was play by two space shuttles glued bottom to bottom I could see an issue, thats a major item in the show. The clothes they wear? what real difference does it make? If they were wearing khaki shorts and tropical shirts while flying the vipers I might see an issue. Why does the general civilian attire make any real difference?

In 20 or 30 years, when current fashions and hair styles have gone out of style, this show will look even more silly.

[SFL Cat]

This is where you lose credibility. Have you ever watched Sci fi shows before? The cereal box tricorder from Star Trek the orgiinal series? the aforementioned techno-keyboard from the original BSG? The Baseball and baseball game on DS9? Every single series has this exact same issue. You can't piss on this series for something every single one has done.....

I think you're short-changing a lot of these old shows. Yeah they were done on the cheap, but you can't discount the influence they had on our culture. In particular, Star Trek's (TOS) technological ideas, gadgets and art design inspired a whole generation of engineers and scientists. Most beds in hospital ER's resemble the old sickbay beds in Star Trek, with grouped monitors showing all the patient's vitals at a glance. I read where the US Navy sent experts to study the bridge design of the Enterprise, and incorporated several elements of that TV set into the next-generation of shipboard CIC centers. I saw an interview with the guy who designed the flip cover cell phone and said he was a die-hard Trekker.

Even the original BSG's hit-and-miss art direction was hands-down more imaginative than NuBSG. Caprica's Pyramid City-scape; and those freakin' AWESOME King Tut flight helmets. I really enjoyed the old show's "Chariots-of-the-Gods" approach to its art direction.

The clothes they wear? what real difference does it make? If they were wearing khaki shorts and tropical shirts while flying the vipers I might see an issue. Why does the general civilian attire make any real difference?

I think using easily recognizable everyday and, in some cases, obsolete items as props in a future society that is supposedly distantly remote from us, not to mention seeing the characters wearing current fashions, just jars my suspension of disbelief. Again, why set it in the BSG universe? Just set it on Earth at some point in the future, and at least we have a point of reference.

[RendeR]

I guess I just can't see why such tiny and really unimportant things make some folks so virulently against the show. As I said beforethe props don't make the story.When I see the bar scenes I see the characters trying to relax in a "crew's lounge" type situation. The fact that its made to look like a dive bar with a piano is really irrelevant. Props are stand ins, mere proxies for whatever our minds really want them to be. it allows the viewer to use their own imagination instead of being tube fed every little detail.

I guess I look at like the tabletop wargames I play. In Warhammer you build models to represent your army and if you want to use something you don't have you find something similar and "proxy" it. Sure its a model of an M1-Abrams Tank, but in the game it represents a predator annihilator. I don't "see" the Abrams, I see the Pred. Just like with BSG. I "see" civilian clothes, and a military truck and a musical instrument and a conduction toaster etc etc etc

[Neon_Chaos]

I guess I just can't see why such tiny and really unimportant things make some folks so virulently against the show. As I said beforethe props don't make the story.When I see the bar scenes I see the characters trying to relax in a "crew's lounge" type situation. The fact that its made to look like a dive bar with a piano is really irrelevant. Props are stand ins, mere proxies for whatever our minds really want them to be. it allows the viewer to use their own imagination instead of being tube fed every little detail.

I guess I look at like the tabletop wargames I play. In Warhammer you build models to represent your army and if you want to use something you don't have you find something similar and "proxy" it. Sure its a model of an M1-Abrams Tank, but in the game it represents a predator annihilator. I don't "see" the Abrams, I see the Pred. Just like with BSG. I "see" civilian clothes, and a military truck and a musical instrument and a conduction toaster etc etc etc

I hope Bad doesn't go ballistic about the limo that Baltar was riding in the past episode :eek:

[RendeR]

I hope Bad doesn't go ballistic about the limo that Baltar was riding in the past episode :eek:


I would expect him to. If he doesn't then he's just nitpicking on the other stuff and his opinion is shyte. Its all about where you draw a line I guess. As I noted above, I have the "disbelief issue" with the unlimited liquor supply but I also understand that the booze in and of itself is pretty irrelevant to the story so I ignore it.

[Bad-example]

I would expect him to. If he doesn't then he's just nitpicking on the other stuff and his opinion is shyte.

Well, a limo is equally out of place. So, I guess I am saved from have a "shyte" opinion. Whew.

Things that can't logically exist in a show or movie detract from my enjoyment. I know at the very least you are able to grasp that concept. At least I thought so.

[RendeR]

There isn't anything illogical about a luxury vehicle, a military truck or a musical instrument either, but you insist that no other society could ever come up with such things.

But you know, I'm the illogical one, right? =)


The one thing I will give you about the piano though, its not something anyone would have saved from the hollocaust in teh Colonies. It would have been put out an arilock to make room for refugees. So in the essence that they wouldn't have KEPT such a thing, I'll give in on the piano bit =)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

It's certainly a valid opinion to hold, though it must suck not being able to watch any shows that aren't 100 percent realistic. What does that leave you? The Wire perhaps, though I'm sure one could find problems there too.

[Bad-example]

There isn't anything illogical about a luxury vehicle, a military truck or a musical instrument either, but you insist that no other society could ever come up with such things.

Ok, play time is over. Go find an ant hill to poke with a stick. ;)

[ISiddiqui]

Moore is on record elsewhere as saying that while many answers will be tied up in the finale, they wrote the finale more with a view towards the characters and less about closing the plot lines. In fact, he's basically said he doesn't care about tying up all the plot lines.

Which I don't really have a problem with. The series finales that have bothered me in the past are ones that try to answer every little thing. Sometimes life is messy and we don't get all the answers or it is open ended on them...

That being said, I think we are going to find out what Starbuck is.


Oh, and bad example's "flaws" are utterly laughable. Basically any sci-fi has massive flaws then.

[Eaglesfan27]

Which I don't really have a problem with. The series finales that have bothered me in the past are ones that try to answer every little thing. Sometimes life is messy and we don't get all the answers or it is open ended on them...

That being said, I think we are going to find out what Starbuck is.


Oh, and bad example's "flaws" are utterly laughable. Basically any sci-fi has massive flaws then.

I think we have been given more than enough clues to deduce what Starbuck is, but I agree that it will be verified in the last episode. Also, I don't expect the series finale to answer all of those questions either, but hope it will address some of them.

[ISiddiqui]

Just taking your list of questions and predicting what will be answered:

So, who is this Daniel guy?

He's either a placeholder because they messed up the numbering or Starbuck's father.

Was Earth really Earth?

I think Moore said it was... but I doubt we'll get anything definitive.

Does the BSG universe exist in our universe? If so, when were we (or will be?)

Probably not answered.

Who/what are the "head" characters?

Aroo?

What is Starbuck?

Definitely will be.

What's behind the "song" that's led them around the galaxy and to "Earth" and clearly isn't done leaving behind clues?

Maybe will be answered (more leaning towards yes, but wouldn't be surprised if it was left twisting in the wind).

Will Galen ever learn that Tori airlocked Cally? Will he care?

Would be interesting.