NFL Week 1 Discussion Thread - Revis signs, HBO rejoices

[Mustang]

Ryan Grant - Gone for the year per ProFootballTalk

Carrying 2 RBs and 3 FBs is going to bite the Packers in the ass.

[Kodos]

Then there's QBs you'd want if those 4 weren't available:
Ben "The Analrapist"


Fixed for Arrested Development fans.

[JediKooter]

I personally think Shaub is incredibly underrated. His career rating is over 90 and his yards per attempt career is nearly 8. I'd group him in the list you have above. I'd also add Romo. I know he gets a ton of crap and has trouble in the playoffs, but I think 108 TD vs. 55 INT is good enough to have on most teams. I'd add him in there too.

edit: Why is Rivers a punk? Because he is. I was actually ok with him and Cutler, I think they are BOTH punks. This is a guy who has been fined multiple times by the league for taunting. (despite the no fun league rules, you REALLY have to be a special kind of jerk to get fined for taunting) My favorite, by the way, was taunting the Raiders after the comeback win last year. Really Philip, the RAIDERS? You CAME BACK to beat them and felt the need to pound your chest? Sorry, the guy is a serious douche. He's also one of the top 5 QB's in the game.

I did think of Shaub, but, I can't get past his bone headed interceptions when they could least afford to have a turnover. He kept his team out of the playoffs for that. Last year was much better though. Romo, just totally forgot about him. I'd take him, he doesn't seem to be as mistake prone as Ben is or Shaub.

Trust me, Rivers is not a punk or a douche. He's ultra competitive and likes to talk and jaw, just like Ray Lewis does. However, Rivers keeps it in the game. He never talks smack before the game or after the game.

As a completely anecdotal story (bear with me here, I'm trying to change your mind ;) ) ...Friend of mine in San Diego, his daughter has played softball with my step daughter for years. His son was (at the time) in the same class as Billy Voleks kid. He had a birthday and my friends son was invited to the Voleks for the birthday. After all the presents were open and stuff, they go out front to play some touch football. After a while, who rolls up? Philip Rivers. Asks if he can get in the game and the kids let him join in. Rivers then proceeds to miss my friends son who was wide open. He comes back and gives Rivers a hard time about missing him. Rivers apologized profusely for missing him. It was all in good fun, but, a funny story and a little bit of a look into Rivers himself. They ended up playing touch football with Philip Rivers for about a half hour and did a bunch of autographs afterwards. I just don't see Cutler doing something like that or Brady or Eli. Rivers is a very grounded individual who just likes to have some fun during the game.

So, I can see and understand if that's all you see of him (on the field stuff), you may think he's a punk, but, that's just not the reality for him. Yes, just one anecdotal story, but, I would be the most surprised person on the planet if he got caught bringing a gun to a night club, or interfering with a murder investigation, stomping on someones head during a game, getting a DUI, putting a cheap hit on another player, accused of rape (twice), etc...that would classify someone as a punk, to me.

I don't even think Cutler is a punk. I think he's just too full of himself to realize his potential. He scared me when he was in Denver, but, once you realized that all you have to do is put a little pressure on him and get his feet moving, he'd start throwing interceptions. I miss Elway though. Those Chargers/Broncos games were fun to watch even though the Chargers usually came up on the wrong side of the score.

[Swaggs]

I think I'd probably list it something like this:

Tier 1 (Elite):
Manning
Brees
Brady

Tier 2:
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Rogers

Tier 2A (old/deteriorating, but good enough to win a title with now):
McNabb
Favre
(Kurt Warner)

Tier 3:
Eli Manning
Schaub
Romo
Palmer (I think he is tough to slot between Tier 3 and Tier 2 Old)

I think I would trade anyone in Tier 3 for a player in Tier 2 OR Tier 2 for a player in Tier 1, but not the other way around. I would probably rather have the Tier 3 guys, long term, over the Tier 2 old guys, but if I was geared up fro a championship run this season, I would think about it.

[Lathum]

How can you possibly put McNabb ahead of some of those guys?

He had his chance, all he did was puke on his shoes.

[Desnudo]

I think I'd probably list it something like this:

Tier 1 (Elite):
Manning
Brees
Brady

Tier 2:
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Rogers

Tier 2A (old/deteriorating, but good enough to win a title with now):
McNabb
Favre
(Kurt Warner)

Tier 3:
Eli Manning
Schaub
Romo
Palmer (I think he is tough to slot between Tier 3 and Tier 2 Old)

I think I would trade anyone in Tier 3 for a player in Tier 2 OR Tier 2 for a player in Tier 1, but not the other way around. I would probably rather have the Tier 3 guys, long term, over the Tier 2 old guys, but if I was geared up fro a championship run this season, I would think about it.

This list makes sense to me. The only change I would make is that I'd rather have Roethlisberger over Rivers or Rogers at this point in time. I think most people would if you ignore the off field stuff.

[Lathum]

Dola- This conversation started with who would I rather have for a game winning drive, not who is the best QB. I stand by my statement that I trust Eli in a big spot, much more than some of the others people are listing. Especially Romo.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I would just merge 2A and 3 and drop Palmer, then I agree with you.

[wade moore]

Especially Romo.Now this we can agree on.

[DaddyTorgo]

I did think of Shaub, but, I can't get past his bone headed interceptions when they could least afford to have a turnover. He kept his team out of the playoffs for that. Last year was much better though. Romo, just totally forgot about him. I'd take him, he doesn't seem to be as mistake prone as Ben is or Shaub.

Trust me, Rivers is not a punk or a douche. He's ultra competitive and likes to talk and jaw, just like Ray Lewis does. However, Rivers keeps it in the game. He never talks smack before the game or after the game.

As a completely anecdotal story (bear with me here, I'm trying to change your mind ;) ) ...Friend of mine in San Diego, his daughter has played softball with my step daughter for years. His son was (at the time) in the same class as Billy Voleks kid. He had a birthday and my friends son was invited to the Voleks for the birthday. After all the presents were open and stuff, they go out front to play some touch football. After a while, who rolls up? Philip Rivers. Asks if he can get in the game and the kids let him join in. Rivers then proceeds to miss my friends son who was wide open. He comes back and gives Rivers a hard time about missing him. Rivers apologized profusely for missing him. It was all in good fun, but, a funny story and a little bit of a look into Rivers himself. They ended up playing touch football with Philip Rivers for about a half hour and did a bunch of autographs afterwards. I just don't see Cutler doing something like that or Brady or Eli. Rivers is a very grounded individual who just likes to have some fun during the game.

So, I can see and understand if that's all you see of him (on the field stuff), you may think he's a punk, but, that's just not the reality for him. Yes, just one anecdotal story, but, I would be the most surprised person on the planet if he got caught bringing a gun to a night club, or interfering with a murder investigation, stomping on someones head during a game, getting a DUI, putting a cheap hit on another player, accused of rape (twice), etc...that would classify someone as a punk, to me.

I don't even think Cutler is a punk. I think he's just too full of himself to realize his potential. He scared me when he was in Denver, but, once you realized that all you have to do is put a little pressure on him and get his feet moving, he'd start throwing interceptions. I miss Elway though. Those Chargers/Broncos games were fun to watch even though the Chargers usually came up on the wrong side of the score.


Brady absolutely would. At least if he could tear himself away from Gisele's hot ass long enough. :D

[DaddyTorgo]

Romo is horrible.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Romo is not horrible, that's fucking ridiculous.

I mean, I know hyperbole is where its at on the internet, but give me a break.

[DaddyTorgo]

Romo is not horrible, that's fucking ridiculous.

I mean, I know hyperbole is where its at on the internet, but give me a break.

Fair enough. There are worse QB's out there. But still...he's below average. His overall numbers may stack up okay, but so far he has shown a propensity to wilting under pressure.

There's a list of "Guys I'd take over Romo today based on winning this year" that is >10, and there's a list of "guys i'd rather build a franchise around" than Romo that he doesn't fit on either.

I mean, if you're building a franchise longer-term, do you take Romo (who age-wise is probably on the edge of making that realistic), or do you take a Stafford/Bradford/Ryan type pick? Me...I'll take one of the guys with upside. Romo has no upside left.

If you want to win now you take all the top tier guys, all the older vets in it for one last hurrah, and even some of the mid-levelish guys over Romo I think.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

he's below average

Your definition of average is wrong.

<table class="datatablecell" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="rowAlt"><td>63.1</td> <td>4,483</td> <td>8.2</td> <td>26</td> <td>9</td></tr></tbody></table>
I would be hard pressed to find 10 I'd take over that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Like I said - his overall numbers may be okay, but all he has shown so far is a propensity to wilt under pressure.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

A) Those numbers are much much better than OK.

B) Your second point is why he's around 7 or 8 rather than top 5.

[Lathum]

I'm with DT on this one. Romo is a lot like ARod used to be. Great numbers in the regular season then disappears when it counts. Until Romo proves he can be trusted in a big spot you can't have him on any type of the lists we are discussing.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Playoff stats:

Pct
Romo: 59.3
Manning: 58.5

Yards/Game
Romo: 208
Manning: 185

TDS/game
Romo: 1
Manning: 1.14

Int/game
Romo: .5
Manning: 1

edit: eli, obv.

[Scoobz0202]

BUT DUDE HE DOESNT HAVE A RING

[DaddyTorgo]

Playoff stats:

Pct
Romo: 59.3
Manning: 58.5

Yards/Game
Romo: 208
Manning: 185

TDS/game
Romo: 1
Manning: 1.14

Int/game
Romo: .5
Manning: 1

What about fumbles lost? Those are turnovers too.

[Desnudo]

Playoff stats:

Pct
Romo: 59.3
Manning: 58.5

Yards/Game
Romo: 208
Manning: 185

TDS/game
Romo: 1
Manning: 1.14

Int/game
Romo: .5
Manning: 1

I know a stat Romo trails in

ridiculous helmet catches/career
Romo: 0
Manning: 1

[Lathum]

So you trust Romo in a big spot over Eli?

Have fun not winning the superbowl

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'm just saying, Lathum, his obvious wilting doesn't really show up in the stats next to your playoff superhero. It must be intangibles then?

[lungs]

I trust Romo in a big spot over Alex Barron.

[yacovfb]

Trust me, Rivers is not a punk or a douche. He's ultra competitive and likes to talk and jaw, just like Ray Lewis does. However, Rivers keeps it in the game. He never talks smack before the game or after the game.

As a completely anecdotal story (bear with me here, I'm trying to change your mind ;) ) ...Friend of mine in San Diego, his daughter has played softball with my step daughter for years. His son was (at the time) in the same class as Billy Voleks kid. He had a birthday and my friends son was invited to the Voleks for the birthday. After all the presents were open and stuff, they go out front to play some touch football. After a while, who rolls up? Philip Rivers. Asks if he can get in the game and the kids let him join in. Rivers then proceeds to miss my friends son who was wide open. He comes back and gives Rivers a hard time about missing him. Rivers apologized profusely for missing him. It was all in good fun, but, a funny story and a little bit of a look into Rivers himself. They ended up playing touch football with Philip Rivers for about a half hour and did a bunch of autographs afterwards. I just don't see Cutler doing something like that or Brady or Eli. Rivers is a very grounded individual who just likes to have some fun during the game.

So, I can see and understand if that's all you see of him (on the field stuff), you may think he's a punk, but, that's just not the reality for him. Yes, just one anecdotal story, but, I would be the most surprised person on the planet if he got caught bringing a gun to a night club, or interfering with a murder investigation, stomping on someones head during a game, getting a DUI, putting a cheap hit on another player, accused of rape (twice), etc...that would classify someone as a punk, to me.

Awesome story and completely in line with his off the field personality. Granted, some guys are better with the media than others but hearing many a Rivers interview on XX sports radio, he gives off a very down to earth vibe that this story falls in line with. I can see how his ultra-competitive nature on the field can rub other fans the wrong way but as a Chargers fan, he's an extremely easy player to root for. It's sad how many haters there are, but it's their loss.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

However, Rivers keeps it in the game. He never talks smack before the game or after the game.

Ellis Hobbs would disagree.

[Lathum]

I'm just saying, Lathum, his obvious wilting doesn't really show up in the stats next to your playoff superhero. It must be intangibles then?

How can you sat that? all Romo has done in the playoffs is made mistakes in big spots while Eli has shown he can take control and make plays in the clutch to win a title. This is not something you can dispute.

[wade moore]

So, in all seriousness Lathum.

Outside of the Super Bowl - has Eli really shown that propensity in any other playoff game?

[lungs]

How can you sat that? all Romo has done in the playoffs is made mistakes in big spots while Eli has shown he can take control and make plays in the clutch to win a title. This is not something you can dispute.

Where was Eli's playoff clutchiness in 2005, 2006, 2008?

[Desnudo]

How can you sat that? all Romo has done in the playoffs is made mistakes in big spots while Eli has shown he can take control and make plays in the clutch to win a title. This is not something you can dispute.

That's like saying Bradshaw is clutch becaue he fired a football off someone's foot. His playoff history is average at best, including in that game.

I'd take him over a lot of QBs in the NFL, but he's definitely middle of the pack.

[molson]

Pats trade Maroney to the Broncos.

Says ESPN according to a fantasy site - though I don't see it anywhere else yet...(though it's not exactly urgent breaking news when a 4th string RB gets traded).

Edit: It was a Adam Schefter tweet, I think

And Ryan Grant done for the year.

[JediKooter]

Brady absolutely would. At least if he could tear himself away from Gisele's hot ass long enough. :D

The impression of him that I get is, he would be too self consumed to do anything like that. He just seems to lack personality, much like his coach. Now mind you, I'm not exposed to him like you would be.

He loses cool points because of where he's from. You can take the kid away from the smug, but you can't take the smug out of the kid. ;)

[RendeR]

Neither Romo Nor Eli manning should be anywhere near this discussion.

[DaddyTorgo]

Pats trade Maroney to the Broncos.

Says ESPN according to a fantasy site - though I don't see it anywhere else yet...(though it's not exactly urgent breaking news when a 4th string RB gets traded).

Edit: It was a Adam Schefter tweet, I think

And Ryan Grant done for the year.

Beat me to it. Crazy and unfortunate how he just totally busted out.

[Lathum]

So, in all seriousness Lathum.

Outside of the Super Bowl - has Eli really shown that propensity in any other playoff game?

2007- Wildcard week against Tampa- 20/27-187 yards- 2td-0 ints
2007- Division Series against Dallas- 12/18- 163 yards- 2 TD- o int- including a great 2 minute drill to end the half after the Cowboys had gone up 14-7.
2007- Superbowl- 19/34- 255 yards- 2 td- 1 int- included "the catch" and anyone who isn't willing to give Eli some credit for that play has either never seen it or is a blind hater.

Where was Eli's playoff clutchiness in 2005, 2006, 2008?

2005- he was horrid, young player who was progressing. Without looking it up pretty sure Manning and Brees took a while to build up to playoff success as well.

2006- Not really Elis fault, he did enough to win. It was the defense letting Westbrook run apeshit all over them.

2007- Won the Superbowl and was outstanding during the run, making virtually zero mistakes while making a number of plays on his own.

2008- They lost Plax to stupidity at the end of the year and it completely messed up that offense. Call it an excuse if you like, but when you lose a player of that caliber it effects the offense.

Bottom line is he progressed through the playoffs as a QB, learned, and got better each year through 05-07 culminating in playing very well during their title run. What more do you expect from him?

That's like saying Bradshaw is clutch because he fired a football off someone's foot. His playoff history is average at best, including in that game.

.

Such an incorrect statement. If Eli doesn't make an outstanding play to get away from the pass rush and put himself in a position to make that throw we are never having this conversation.

[DaddyTorgo]

The impression of him that I get is, he would be too self consumed to do anything like that. He just seems to lack personality, much like his coach. Now mind you, I'm not exposed to him like you would be.

He loses cool points because of where he's from. You can take the kid away from the smug, but you can't take the smug out of the kid. ;)


Nahh...I think that's just the "so serious" personality that you see on sundays. I don't get the impression that he's that self-consumed. Mind you I've never met the guy or anything, but I don't think so.

[JediKooter]

Ellis Hobbs would disagree.

I'm not familiar with this. Does this have anything to do with LT getting pissed at the Patriots for mocking Merriman's lights out celebration (which I can't stand by the way) after their playoff win? Rivers is like Andy Griffith to me. Just a good 'ol boy trying to have a good time.

Another player that I liked that had a bad rap was Rodney Harrison. He played hard from start to finish and because of that, he got labeled as a dirty player. He was no more dirty than Ray Lewis, on the field.


Awesome story and completely in line with his off the field personality. Granted, some guys are better with the media than others but hearing many a Rivers interview on XX sports radio, he gives off a very down to earth vibe that this story falls in line with. I can see how his ultra-competitive nature on the field can rub other fans the wrong way but as a Chargers fan, he's an extremely easy player to root for. It's sad how many haters there are, but it's their loss.

Exactly. You listen to him and he just wants to have fun (in addition to winning) and he likes to go up against the best players in the league. I think what also rubs people the wrong way is simply, he's a Charger. If he was with the Bears or Miami or practically any other team, I don't think you would hear the misrepresentations of him like you do. It's a west coast team and west coast teams are treated as second class citizens in the sports media, with 2 exceptions: your team has LA before the name or has an owner whose persona is bigger than the team.

[JediKooter]

Nahh...I think that's just the "so serious" personality that you see on sundays. I don't get the impression that he's that self-consumed. Mind you I've never met the guy or anything, but I don't think so.

Ah, that's cool and I'm sure you see stuff that we wouldn't see out here as well. You put him next to Peyton and think who would you rather hang out with. I'd pick Peyton to have some fun and goof around and get trashed and I'd pick Brady because of all the ladies that would be around. :D

[Lathum]

I fully admit I don't watch a ton of Chargers games, but what I have seen of him he tends to act like a child at times. Perfect example was last night he has a problem with his center, they get a delay of game and he throws the ball to the ground and kicks it like a petulant child. that wasn't the first time I have seen him do stuff like that.

I will also say he is a tremendous talent.

[BishopMVP]

Didn't we realize 2-3 years ago you couldn't argue with Lathum regarding Eli? In my mind, Eli has actually improved to a legitimate top 12 (but decidedly not top 5) QB the past 2+ seasons. According to Lathum, Eli peaked as a QB in 2007 because he won a Super Bowl. IIRC, he even was arguing that Eli was better than Brees last year until Brees won the Super Bowl.

Outside of this topic (and Brandon Jacobs) I respect the guy opinion's, but he's a blatant Giants homer who overrates a SB win wayyyy too much, and he'll admit it most of the time. That's as much as you'll get from him - he's never going to change his view on Eli no matter what evidence you provide to the contrary.

[molson]

I fully admit I don't watch a ton of Chargers games, but what I have seen of him he tends to act like a child at times

Kind of ironic to discuss Rivers' child-like behavior in an conversation about Eli considering how both got to their respective teams.

[BishopMVP]

Exactly. You listen to him and he just wants to have fun (in addition to winning) and he likes to go up against the best players in the league. I think what also rubs people the wrong way is simply, he's a Charger. If he was with the Bears or Miami or practically any other team, I don't think you would hear the misrepresentations of him like you do. It's a west coast team and west coast teams are treated as second class citizens in the sports media, with 2 exceptions: your team has LA before the name or has an owner whose persona is bigger than the team.Hahaha. Does he get a bad rap? Maybe. Is it because of some East Coast bias or the city he plays in? Absolutely not. It has to do with playing for a team that constantly talked smack vs. the Patriots and never backed it up on the field, that looks like a petulant child when things aren't going his way (Peyton Manning was also criticized for this before he won a SB) and that got fined for taunting shitty teams like the Raiders.

[yacovfb]

I fully admit I don't watch a ton of Chargers games, but what I have seen of him he tends to act like a child at times. Perfect example was last night he has a problem with his center, they get a delay of game and he throws the ball to the ground and kicks it like a petulant child. that wasn't the first time I have seen him do stuff like that.

I will also say he is a tremendous talent.

To me, though, that's just his ultra-competitiveness shining through. He gives a shit that they go pushed back from 3rd and 4 to 3rd and 9. Are there different ways of acting? Probably, but I like that he shows emotion as the leader of the team. Hardwick (the center) was interview today and he said that it's that style that endears Philip to his teammates and helps to fire them up too.

[Lathum]

Kind of ironic to discuss Rivers' child-like behavior in an conversation about Eli considering how both got to their respective teams.

Say what you like about it, I wasn't comparing the two.

[jbergey22]

If one drive is the question its gotta be

1. Brady
1a. Peyton Manning


3 Brees

4. Favre

5. Big Ben




6. Eli Manning

None of the other guys in the discussion(Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Schaub) have shown enough to be graded in this situation. Manning gets #6 because he has shown it on the grand stage.

With that said I dont have many doubts that Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, and Phillip Rivers could have done what Eli did.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's on one drive for the season than Favre is like #50. I'd take a dead guy over him at that point.

[Lathum]

Didn't we realize 2-3 years ago you couldn't argue with Lathum regarding Eli? In my mind, Eli has actually improved to a legitimate top 12 (but decidedly not top 5) QB the past 2+ seasons. According to Lathum, Eli peaked as a QB in 2007 because he won a Super Bowl. IIRC, he even was arguing that Eli was better than Brees last year until Brees won the Super Bowl.

Outside of this topic (and Brandon Jacobs) I respect the guy opinion's, but he's a blatant Giants homer who overrates a SB win wayyyy too much, and he'll admit it most of the time. That's as much as you'll get from him - he's never going to change his view on Eli no matter what evidence you provide to the contrary.

This is pretty close to accurate, but in my defense I am talking about a guy who has been to the playoffs 4 of 5 years as a starter and it would of been 5 of 5 had the defense not staged a mutiny last year. He won a title and was a superbowl MVP, is well over .500 as a career starter. If he plays at this level for another 7-10 years he will top 45,000 passing yards and 250 touchdowns. He showed great improvement as a playoff QB from 05-07 and in the regular season the past 3 years his QB rating has gone from 73 to 93.

Lets not act like I am trying to defend David Garrard or Jason Cambell, a lot of the points I make are valid, reasonable arguments.

[jbergey22]

It's on one drive for the season than Favre is like #50. I'd take a dead guy over him at that point.

I realize everyone remembers how many times Favre has crushed his teams chances in the playoffs with interceptions. He is going to take chances and many times he looks like an idiot for doing it.

However I have seen him work enough magic against the Vikings to know what is capable of. Id still take him in a final drive over everyone except Brady, Manning, and Brees. Ive seen other great QBs fail as well. Its not as if the other 5 on that list have been 100 percent successful.

[Greyroofoo]

I realize everyone remembers how many times Favre has crushed his teams chances in the playoffs with interceptions. He is going to take chances and many times he looks like an idiot for doing it.

However I have seen him work enough magic against the Vikings to know what is capable of. Id still take him in a final drive over everyone except Brady, Manning, and Brees. Ive seen other great QBs fail as well. Its not as if the other 5 on that list have been 100 percent successful.

for example this beauty by Brady...
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNH-En9TqZY?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNH-En9TqZY?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[molson]

Just so I'm keeping up with the latest trends - is it now accepted that "clutch" exists in football but not baseball? What about horse racing? Who determines these things?

[Lathum]

Just so I'm keeping up with the latest trends - is it now accepted that "clutch" exists in football but not baseball? What about horse racing? Who determines these things?

Eli Manning does.

[JediKooter]

I fully admit I don't watch a ton of Chargers games, but what I have seen of him he tends to act like a child at times. Perfect example was last night he has a problem with his center, they get a delay of game and he throws the ball to the ground and kicks it like a petulant child. that wasn't the first time I have seen him do stuff like that.

I will also say he is a tremendous talent.

He was pissed that a center (and actually one of the better ones in the league, which makes it worse) couldn't snap the ball before the play clock expired, from my count, for the 3rd time that game. Like I said before, he gets frustrated. I've seen him get frustrated and basically throw his hands up in the air as if he is saying, 'what do I have to do?'. He wasn't hanging his head, jumping up and down or pouting or anything like that. What you saw was the result of a 3rd delay of game because the center did not snap the ball and to top it off, it was against a divisional rival and they were losing. So yes, I think frustrations would be running pretty high there. I'm pretty sure he was just as tough on himself after the game for 1: Not running the ball into the end zone to tie it up. 2: Over throwing a touchdown pass in the back of the end zone that would have tied it up and 3: Not hitting the receiver that was slipping and falling, to tie the game up. Don't confuse his competitiveness with acting childish.

Yes, he is very talented, easily top 5 in the league.

Hahaha. Does he get a bad rap? Maybe. Is it because of some East Coast bias or the city he plays in? Absolutely not. It has to do with playing for a team that constantly talked smack vs. the Patriots and never backed it up on the field, that looks like a petulant child when things aren't going his way (Peyton Manning was also criticized for this before he won a SB) and that got fined for taunting shitty teams like the Raiders.

Interesting the smack talking didn't start until the Patriots did their little dance on the Chargers helmet and even then, the smack talking wasn't really even smack talking, but, the Boston press certainly wrote it up to sound like it was. There was LT chirping about the coach, which was bad in my opinion and he should have just kept quiet about that. However, I never remember Rivers saying anything that could be considered smack about any team, let alone the Patriots. I think it's amazing that people confuse frustration with being a child. I've seen just about every quarterback in the league get frustrated and none of them have acted like a child.

As for the Raiders thing, the only one that I can remember is near the end of a game and he spiked a ball into a Raider that had just tried to take his knees out and then bent down and pointed at him and said something to him. But, it's the Raiders, so no harm no foul. If I had the money, I would have paid that fine. :)

[DataKing]

Wrong thread.

[BishopMVP]

for example this beauty by Brady...
<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNH-En9TqZY?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>I couldn't find an appropriate "last-minute drive" play for Peyton vs. the Patriots since he threw 4 picks in a 24-14 loss and 0 td's in a 20-3 loss the other two times they met in the playoffs. Is this good enough?
<object height="385" width="640">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xh5D_TMGwjk?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="640"></object>

[jbergey22]

He was pissed that a center (and actually one of the better ones in the league, which makes it worse) couldn't snap the ball before the play clock expired, from my count, for the 3rd time that game. Like I said before, he gets frustrated. I've seen him get frustrated and basically throw his hands up in the air as if he is saying, 'what do I have to do?'. He wasn't hanging his head, jumping up and down or pouting or anything like that. What you saw was the result of a 3rd delay of game because the center did not snap the ball and to top it off, it was against a divisional rival and they were losing. So yes, I think frustrations would be running pretty high there. I'm pretty sure he was just as tough on himself after the game for 1: Not running the ball into the end zone to tie it up. 2: Over throwing a touchdown pass in the back of the end zone that would have tied it up and 3: Not hitting the receiver that was slipping and falling, to tie the game up. Don't confuse his competitiveness with acting childish.

Yes, he is very talented, easily top 5 in the league.



Interesting the smack talking didn't start until the Patriots did their little dance on the Chargers helmet and even then, the smack talking wasn't really even smack talking, but, the Boston press certainly wrote it up to sound like it was. There was LT chirping about the coach, which was bad in my opinion and he should have just kept quiet about that. However, I never remember Rivers saying anything that could be considered smack about any team, let alone the Patriots. I think it's amazing that people confuse frustration with being a child. I've seen just about every quarterback in the league get frustrated and none of them have acted like a child.

As for the Raiders thing, the only one that I can remember is near the end of a game and he spiked a ball into a Raider that had just tried to take his knees out and then bent down and pointed at him and said something to him. But, it's the Raiders, so no harm no foul. If I had the money, I would have paid that fine. :)

I'm glad you are bringing this up. I dont understand the hate for Rivers either. He shows a personality that he cares and because of it people dont like him. I dont understand. Michael Jordan did the same things and people say he is the greatest of all time. Once Brady and Manning decide they have dominated this league long enough Rivers and Rodgers are getting the torch passed their way.

Eli and Big Ben I would consider in the very good but not great class.

[MikeVic]

I'm glad you are bringing this up. I dont understand the hate for Rivers either. He shows a personality that he cares and because of it people dont like him. I dont understand. Michael Jordan did the same things and people say he is the greatest of all time. Once Brady and Manning decide they have dominated this league long enough Rivers and Rodgers are getting the torch passed their way.

Eli and Big Ben I would consider in the very good but not great class.

Not much of a basketball fan? I believe people acknowledge that Jordan's competitiveness led to him being an ass/douche in certain eyes. It depends on if you like him or not. I was like that with Kobe. I hated hated hated him. But now with the whole LeBron crap, I've come to respect Kobe even though people might still think he's a douche.

I'd put Big Ben above Eli for sure.

[DaddyTorgo]

for example this beauty by Brady...



cute - but that wasn't a bad pass as much as it was Faulk just absolutely dropping the ball. literally.

[Passacaglia]

Who thought it would be a good idea for anyone else to be in the locker room, anyway?

[JediKooter]

I'm glad you are bringing this up. I dont understand the hate for Rivers either. He shows a personality that he cares and because of it people dont like him. I dont understand. Michael Jordan did the same things and people say he is the greatest of all time. Once Brady and Manning decide they have dominated this league long enough Rivers and Rodgers are getting the torch passed their way.

Exactly, it's that desire and care to win that is being exposed. Jordan was a beast, but, he also won championships and that seems to be the only thing that matters to people. How somebody acts on the field, isn't always directly proportional to their stats. There will definitely be a power shift when those 2 retire and it would be kind of cool to see a Rivers/Rodgers rivalry especially if they meet a couple of times in the SB.

[TroyF]

In 2006, Romo had the famous gaffe on the FG attempt. Why the Cowboys had their starting QB be a holder after he's working his ass off the rest of the game was idiotic to begin with.

In 2007, Eli beat Romo and the Cowboys. Of course, the Giants defense beat the living hell out of Farve and Brady the following two games. 2008 was the Eagles disaster in December and in 2009 they beat Philly and lost at Minny.

I'm not saying Romo was amazing in any of those games, but I don't think he was the sole cause for the losses either. He's only 30, not 38. I wouldn't mind it if he were the QB of the Broncos.

[TroyF]

Exactly, it's that desire and care to win that is being exposed. Jordan was a beast, but, he also won championships and that seems to be the only thing that matters to people. How somebody acts on the field, isn't always directly proportional to their stats. There will definitely be a power shift when those 2 retire and it would be kind of cool to see a Rivers/Rodgers rivalry especially if they meet a couple of times in the SB.


Sorry, I still think he's a douche. Taunting the Raiders. Seriously? Not my loss because I wouldn't be cheering for him anyway. I respect his game, I hate his "competitiveness" (I put that in quotes because I don't mind competitors, I hate jack asses)

[jbergey22]

I think all you can hope for in the NFL is to have one of the top 20 or so quarterbacks that wont lose games for you. You get to the Matt Moore's, Jason Campbells, Trent Edwards, and Jake Delhomme's of the NFL and you pretty much stand no chance of sneaking in the playoffs.

Despite the hype the Jets are going to struggle getting to the playoffs this year unless Sanchez can really improve.

It really shows how difficult that position is when 32 NFL teams cant even put out a functional starting QB and one of the most talented teams in the NFL have to depend on a decision from a 40 year old every summer to decide their fate.

[jbergey22]

Nice to see the Pats fans were on here burying the Bengals season.

I'm not trying to say they looked good despite the loss, or even that I thought it was fine, BUT I did have that game chalked up as a loss. Plus, you add to that that the Bengals had several slow starts last year, so I was not surprised that they came out flat and the Pats looked great. You would just think that the Bengals would realize that if you come out flat against a team of the Pats caliber, that they will step on your throat and break your neck, which is what they did.

Nice game by the Pats, but the Bengals are not done, Palmer is not through, and TO and CO are not about to blow-up. The Bengals lost to a better team on the road.

Whoopty-doo. The Pats did their job, let's have a ticker-tape parade.

If Moss doesnt get paid soon they may not be celebrating too many more wins this year;) When he doesnt get his way things can get ugly in a hurry.

[jeff061]

If Moss doesnt get paid soon they may not be celebrating too many more wins this year<img src="images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="136" class="inlineimg" /> When he doesnt get his way things can get ugly in a hurry.<br />
<br />
I can't imagine anyone who has actually followed the Moss non-story, or even heard anything he has said outside a 5 second ESPN clip, agrees with this. He hasn't said anything all that bad or surprising. And through camp and game one he has looked as good as he has since 2007.

He's just crappy at dealing with the media, he's no Brady, it's why he boycotts them. Wish he kept it up :D.

[jbergey22]

I can't imagine anyone who has actually followed the Moss non-story, or even heard anything he has said outside a 5 second ESPN clip, agrees with this. He hasn't said anything all that bad or surprising. And through camp and game one he has looked as good as he has since 2007.

He's not upset yet. He played for the Vikings for 7 seasons most of them which were great. Once he starts feeling disrespected you wont get the same Moss that you are used to.

The first sign of this was the post game press conference followed by the interview on ESPN today. I've seen him go down this road twice previously. When he starts venting frustrating to the press(which he cant stand) it means things arent great in Randy land.

He has already set the table for what may happen in the future if he doesnt get what he wants.

[jeff061]

He's playing for a super bowl caliber team where the responsibility doesn't rest solely on his shoulders(huge with him). And he respects Brady and Belichick. It's different.

And he's older now, that helps to a certain extent.

As for the interview on ESPN, all he talked about was how much he loved NE and his teamates, want to stay, had to blow off some steam and it's done with.

[jbergey22]

He's playing for a super bowl caliber team where the responsibility doesn't rest solely on his shoulders(huge with him). And he respects Brady and Belichick. It's different.

And he's older now, that helps to a certain extent.

As for the interview on ESPN, all he talked about was how much he loved NE and his teamates, want to stay, had to blow off some steam and it's done with.

It's not done with. I hope New England pays him so he go out like a winner rather than end his career like TO has(floating from team to team) as Ive always liked Moss and think he is the best WR to ever play the game.

If he hasnt gotten paid by week 8 and the Pats arent a Super Bowl contender he will mail it in at that point.

Pats have no reason not to give him an extension.

I do agree that he respects Brady.

[TroyF]

It's not done with. I hope New England pays him so he go out like a winner rather than end his career like TO has(floating from team to team) as Ive always liked Moss and think he is the best WR to ever play the game.

If he hasnt gotten paid by week 8 and the Pats arent a Super Bowl contender he will mail it in at that point.

Pats have no reason not to give him an extension.


I'm sorry, but NE won't end any differently than any place else. He wants to get PAID. He thinks he deserves to get PAID. And if the Patriots don't reward him, he will shut down. Always has, always will.

Just beat the tar out of the Jets next week and I don't care. For one week, I'm a huge NE fan.

[jeff061]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hebzTyTZ4o

@:50. Hate to roll that out, cause I thought it was a lame PR stunt. Not a sign of a guy focused on nothing but the check.

I don't think he's getting paid by the Pats either way. But if he shuts it down he won't get paid by anyone else. If he plays well someone(foolish) will dump another huge pay day in his lap. End of story. He isn't dumb. And I completely buy into what he says about wanting to play and win with the Pats.

If he could play through a year with Cassel at QB, he can keep it going in a contract year with Brady(who appears to be sharp as ever) at the helm.

[jbergey22]

Seems kind of strange that they took away his title of captain if things were as they seem:)

These things eat away at him you know. Up until this point they had done everything they could to make him happy.

No money+removal of captain title=disrespected Randy Moss=Trouble

I hope you are right and I am wrong.

[jeff061]

Having followed him and what he's said closely, I'd put money on it. The only way he starts phoning it in is if the Pats just start tanking. If that happened, yeah he'd be a disaster.

I think one of his Oakland coaches said he's a great player, just easily daunted. Completely agree with that.

[JediKooter]

Sorry, I still think he's a douche. Taunting the Raiders. Seriously? Not my loss because I wouldn't be cheering for him anyway. I respect his game, I hate his "competitiveness" (I put that in quotes because I don't mind competitors, I hate jack asses)

Ok, now I think I remember the play...The Raider was still coming after Rivers after the play had been blown dead or something like that, he throws the ball towards him or spikes it, Rivers lost his mouth piece, bent down to pick it up and said something to him? It seems like the perception is that Rivers was unprovoked and that he just decided to go off on the guy, which wasn't the case.

[BishopMVP]

I'm sorry, but NE won't end any differently than any place else. He wants to get PAID. He thinks he deserves to get PAID. And if the Patriots don't reward him, he will shut down. Always has, always will.I seem to recall him taking a pay cut to go from a losing situation to the Patriots, but I actually agree with jbergey (and I guess galaril) in one sense.If he hasnt gotten paid by week 8 and the Pats arent a Super Bowl contender he will mail it in at that point.I just disagree that he will mail it in on the field as long as we are contending. And I don't even think you need to believe he's "matured with age" or "respects Brady/Belichick too much" - this whole reputation of Randy only caring about Randy getting paid came from a season where Minnesota fell apart (and still made the playoffs + won a game) and two seasons where Oakland was a combined 6-26. I really do believe he wants to win, and I see no reason he will stop producing on the field as long as we are winning.

[Lathum]

Clinton Portis should never be allowed to speak.

[Arles]

Carrying 2 RBs and 3 FBs is going to bite the Packers in the ass.
Kuhn can play short-yardage and Lumpken looked like crap in the preseason. They signed Nance from Atlanta and I don't see much of a difference between him and Lumpken (the 3rd back had they kept 3).

This will be Jackson's job (he was a 2nd round pick out of Nebraska) and if he doesn't do well, they can look at trading for Lynch/Barber/.. or bringing back the old bones of Ahman Green. I don't see the presence of Kregg Lumpken changing the reality of this situation. We'd just have him as the "JAG" backup instead the current JAG backup Nance.

[RainMaker]

Not much of a basketball fan? I believe people acknowledge that Jordan's competitiveness led to him being an ass/douche in certain eyes. It depends on if you like him or not. I was like that with Kobe. I hated hated hated him. But now with the whole LeBron crap, I've come to respect Kobe even though people might still think he's a douche.

I'd put Big Ben above Eli for sure.
I might be misremembering, but I don't remember Jordan showing up his teammates on the court that much. Most of his asshole stories are behind the scenes in the locker room and at practice.

I do think there is a difference in doing it in the locker room and doing it on the field in front of millions. Normally I wouldn't think it's a big deal, but part of the reason the Chargers were struggling was because Rivers was playing like shit.

[TroyF]

Guys. . .

The Moss complaint of the contract is the first step. It's a step he's taken multiple times. Lets say he torches Revis on Sunday. 10 catches, 140 yards, 2 TD. Something like that. Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

He's going to take it as a slap in the face. The guy is moody and petulant. I don't buy that he'll continue to go balls to the wall if he feels he's being disrespected. Brady? He'd have been professional and worked his ass off all year. Owens? As big of a douche as he is, he always played hard, despite dropping a ton of passes. Moss? He'll quit. He's done it time and time again. He'll break your heart.

All of that said. . . hell, I hope you are right. I hope Randy plays hard. He's a fun guy to watch even if he is a dick. I just don't buy that he's changed anything.

[Kodos]

Whoever said Moss is the best WR in NFL history... wow. He isn't fit to sniff Jerry Rice's jock strap.

[flere-imsaho]

Kind of ironic to discuss Rivers' child-like behavior in an conversation about Eli considering how both got to their respective teams.

:D

Just so I'm keeping up with the latest trends - is it now accepted that "clutch" exists in football but not baseball? What about horse racing? Who determines these things?

Oh good, it's been at least a year since we had this discussion on the board. :p

Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing another dedicated thread about it. I know from last time there was a lot of statistical analysis showing not a lot of support for the idea of "clutch". I wonder, though, how many people who have actually played competitive sports (not necessarily professionally) believe in "clutch". I know I do, despite what the statistics might say.

Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

I guess I've missed this story, so can someone fill me in? Is the situation that the Patriots haven't even started contract discussions with Moss, or that they did, offered their usual low-ball for ageing players, and he's reacting against that?

[molson]

Guys. . .

The Moss complaint of the contract is the first step. It's a step he's taken multiple times. Lets say he torches Revis on Sunday. 10 catches, 140 yards, 2 TD. Something like that. Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

He's going to take it as a slap in the face. The guy is moody and petulant. I don't buy that he'll continue to go balls to the wall if he feels he's being disrespected. Brady? He'd have been professional and worked his ass off all year. Owens? As big of a douche as he is, he always played hard, despite dropping a ton of passes. Moss? He'll quit. He's done it time and time again. He'll break your heart.

All of that said. . . hell, I hope you are right. I hope Randy plays hard. He's a fun guy to watch even if he is a dick. I just don't buy that he's changed anything.

The only thing that might keep in line is that it's a contract year. I think he's a smarter guy than say, Manny Ramirez. They crying this week after a week 1 win was calculated.

I don't think he's in the Pats plans after this year, and I think it's the perfect time to part ways.

[molson]

Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing another dedicated thread about it. I know from last time there was a lot of statistical analysis showing not a lot of support for the idea of "clutch". I wonder, though, how many people who have actually played competitive sports (not necessarily professionally) believe in "clutch". I know I do, despite what the statistics might say.



How about outside of sports - I'm sure if there was some numerical rating that could evaluate my own job performance, it would be better during the "important" periods of my job.

The idea that there's zero difference in baseball performance relative to game situation is the dumbest idea to come out of the sabremetrics era. I'm glad it's not an accepted idea in football yet.

[jbergey22]

Whoever said Moss is the best WR in NFL history... wow. He isn't fit to sniff Jerry Rice's jock strap.

4 of the top 10 QB FF seasons in NFL history were with Randy Moss as a WR. Plus the two highest scoring teams in NFL history were with Moss as the main WR target. I think he is perfectly capable of sniffing Rice's jock strap.

Cunningham '98
Culpepper '00
Culpepper '04
Brady '07

You may not like him but its hard to argue with facts. Cunningham was close to 40 at the time and Culpepper proved that he was worthless without Randy Moss. Brady went from a great QB to a record setting QB.

[Kodos]

NFL Career Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_career.htm)

NFL Career Receiving Touchdowns Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_td_career.htm)

He has A LOT of ground to make up before he has a claim. He basically needs to add Steve Smith's career onto his own so far to catch Rice in TDs and receiving. He's 32 already. He'll never make it.

And that's not even figuring in Super Bowl wins.

[MikeVic]

Moss is great, but you can't call him the greatest of all time. He's known to slack, that takes him out of the running regardless of stats.

[Ksyrup]

How about outside of sports - I'm sure if there was some numerical rating that could evaluate my own job performance, it would be better during the "important" periods of my job.

The idea that there's zero difference in baseball performance relative to game situation is the dumbest idea to come out of the sabremetrics era. I'm glad it's not an accepted idea in football yet.

"Clutch" performances exist in any way you want to define them - late inning/close score, game-winning drives, etc. What has been demonstrated in baseball via stats is that there is no unique or special talent/ability to be consistently "clutch," however you define it. That's been pretty thoroughly debunked. There is no rhyme or reason to the "clutch" stats generated by 99.9995% of players, where one or two years, a guy will outperform his stats in clutch situtations and then under-perform for another year or two. Nearly every player in MLB history is that way - up and down in clutch situations over their career.

What I think confuses the situation for people is two things: (1) we tend to remember successful clutch performances, and when someone is repeatedly in those situations and has those opportunities, we tend to remember the successful ones as if they are the only ones; and (2) we're talking about out-performing or under-performing your "normal" stats, so the greater a player is in general, the more successful they are going to be in clutch situations. If Derek Jeter wasn't a great player, he wouldn't have as many successful clutch performances (or opportunities, getting to the playoffs every year but 1 in his career). That doesn't make him clutch, it means he performs in the clutch about as he does normally - which is a very high level. that's what makes him appear clutch compared to Joe Schmoe's clutch performance with a career .650 OPS. Jeter's going to perform well in those situations because he is a great player to begin with.

All of this is not to say that pressure has no bearing on how someone performs when the game is on the line - it's just that, at least in baseball, it's been proven this isn't a talent or ability that can be consistently demonstrated over a career.

[jbergey22]

NFL Career Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_career.htm)

NFL Career Receiving Touchdowns Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_td_career.htm)

He has A LOT of ground to make up before he has a claim. He basically needs to add Steve Smith's career onto his own so far to catch Rice in TDs and receiving. He's 32 already. He'll never make it.

Are we talking about who played longer or who was better?

I dont think you can say Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ty Cobb or that Curtis Martin was a better RB than Jim Brown.

Besides you are the one that said Moss couldnt sniff Rice's jock strap. I think that was more of an exaggeration than me saying Moss is the best WR of all time.

[Shkspr]

You know what, though? Your argument is shit.


Your argument fails because "fantasy football points" is a stupid and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of ANOTHER PLAYER is an even more pointless and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using "fantasy football points" is an astoundingly arbitrary way to judge greatness across eras.

But most of all your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of another player to judge greatness across eras and then turning around and rejecting the use of actual statistics compiled in actual games by the actual players involved to compare them is the height of idiocy.

Randy Moss can't sniff Jerry Rice's jockstrap if for no other reason than Randy Moss's defenders have to resort to using Daunte Culpepper's fantasy football point score to make them seem comparable.

[Kodos]

Here are their top 10 seasons in scoring TDs.

Randy Moss (30) 23 2007 NWE
Randy Moss (21) 17 1998 MIN
Randy Moss (26) 17 2003 MIN
Randy Moss (23) 15 2000 MIN
Randy Moss (32) 13 2009 NWE
Randy Moss (27) 13 2004 MIN
Randy Moss (27) 13 2004 MIN
Randy Moss (31) 11 2008 NWE
Randy Moss (22) 11 1999 MIN
Randy Moss (24) 10 2001 MIN


Jerry Rice+ (25) 22 1987 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (27) 17 1989 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (24) 15 1986 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (33) 15 1995 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (31) 15 1993 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (29) 14 1991 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (32) 13 1994 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (28) 13 1990 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 10 1992 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 9 1988 SFO

They look pretty similar. But can Moss keep it up at the end of his career? Part of greatness is maintaining productivity over a long period. I don't think Moss is dedicated or disciplined enough to catch Rice.

And, yeah, the fantasy football argument was dumb. Did they even have fantasy football at the beginning of Jerry Rice's career?

[jbergey22]

You know what, though? Your argument is shit.


Your argument fails because "fantasy football points" is a stupid and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of ANOTHER PLAYER is an even more pointless and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using "fantasy football points" is an astoundingly arbitrary way to judge greatness across eras.

But most of all your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of another player to judge greatness across eras and then turning around and rejecting the use of actual statistics compiled in actual games by the actual players involved to compare them is the height of idiocy.

Randy Moss can't sniff Jerry Rice's jockstrap if for no other reason than Randy Moss's defenders have to resort to using Daunte Culpepper's fantasy football point score to make them seem comparable.

How about the two highest scoring teams in NFL history
1998 Minnesota Vikings
2007 New England Patriots

having Moss as a key part of their offense.

Since it is arbitrary that QB's have great years with Moss as a WR. Is it also arbitrary that some of the highest scoring teams in NFL history have had him on the team as well?

You must hate any type of individual stats because they are all arbitrary.

[Warhammer]

Whoever said Moss is the best WR in NFL history... wow. He isn't fit to sniff Jerry Rice's jock strap.

:withstupid:

[Passacaglia]

All I can say is, if Eli Manning and Randy Moss ever end up on the same team...look out.

[Warhammer]

How about the two highest scoring teams in NFL history
1998 Minnesota Vikings
2007 New England Patriots

having Moss as a key part of their offense.

Since it is arbitrary that QB's have great years with Moss as a WR. Is it also arbitrary that some of the highest scoring teams in NFL history have had him on the team as well?

Much of that has to do with the rest of the team though. Its not a one man band, and why was the greatness not sustained?

EDIT: Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce are the best WR duo in league history because they played on the only offense to score more than 500 points three straight years!

[Kodos]

NFL Single-Season Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_single_season.htm)

Here are their seasons that rank in the top 250 performances in NFL history for single-season receiving yards:

Jerry Rice+ (33) 1,848 1995 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (24) 1,570 1986 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (31) 1,503 1993 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (28) 1,502 1990 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (32) 1,499 1994 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (27) 1,483 1989 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (26) 1,306 1988 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (34) 1,254 1996 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (40) 1,211 2002 OAK
Jerry Rice+ (29) 1,206 1991 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 1,201 1992 SFO

Randy Moss (26) 1,632 2003 MIN
Randy Moss (30) 1,493 2007 NWE
Randy Moss (23) 1,437 2000 MIN
Randy Moss (22) 1,413 1999 MIN
Randy Moss (25) 1,347 2002 MIN
Randy Moss (21) 1,313 1998 MIN
Randy Moss (24) 1,233 2001 MIN

Jerry's highs are higher (including the best season in NFL history), and he has a lot more of them.

[jbergey22]

Much of that has to do with the rest of the team though. Its not a one man band, and why was the greatness not sustained?

EDIT: Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce are the best WR duo in league history because they played on the only offense to score more than 500 points three straight years!

Kind of like Jerry Rice having 2 of the best QBs in NFL history as his QBs?

Greatness wasnt sustained because Daunte Culpepper sucks(he hasnt had 1 10td season since Moss left his side). Patriots 07 and Patriots 09 were both top 100 scoring teams in NFL history when Brady was healthy.

[Kodos]

Greatness wasnt sustained because Daunte Culpepper sucks(he hasnt had 1 10td season since Moss left his side).

Yes. Blowing his knee out probably had nothing to do with Culpepper's collapse after Randy left.

[jbergey22]

NFL Single-Season Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_single_season.htm)

Here are their seasons that rank in the top 250 performances in NFL history for single-season receiving yards:

Jerry Rice+ (33) 1,848 1995 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (24) 1,570 1986 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (31) 1,503 1993 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (28) 1,502 1990 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (32) 1,499 1994 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (27) 1,483 1989 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (26) 1,306 1988 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (34) 1,254 1996 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (40) 1,211 2002 OAK
Jerry Rice+ (29) 1,206 1991 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 1,201 1992 SFO

Randy Moss (26) 1,632 2003 MIN
Randy Moss (30) 1,493 2007 NWE
Randy Moss (23) 1,437 2000 MIN
Randy Moss (22) 1,413 1999 MIN
Randy Moss (25) 1,347 2002 MIN
Randy Moss (21) 1,313 1998 MIN
Randy Moss (24) 1,233 2001 MIN

Jerry's highs are higher (including the best season in NFL history), and he has a lot more of them.

Stats are arbitrary according to Shkspr;)We need a more concrete way of judging this. I am only kidding.

Yes Rice was the man I know that. The sniffing the jock strap comment got to me.

[jeff061]

Purely from a skill and athletic standpoint I think an argument can be made for Moss.

But, more importantly, straight up best WR? No one comes close to Rice. Not even a discussion.

[Ksyrup]

Guys, I think this discussion is a bit premature.

Shouldn't we wait to see how Moss fares on Dancing with the Stars?

[molson]

"Clutch" performances exist in any way you want to define them - late inning/close score, game-winning drives, etc. What has been demonstrated in baseball via stats is that there is no unique or special talent/ability to be consistently "clutch," however you define it. That's been pretty thoroughly debunked. There is no rhyme or reason to the "clutch" stats generated by 99.9995% of players, where one or two years, a guy will outperform his stats in clutch situtations and then under-perform for another year or two. Nearly every player in MLB history is that way - up and down in clutch situations over their career.

What I think confuses the situation for people is two things: (1) we tend to remember successful clutch performances, and when someone is repeatedly in those situations and has those opportunities, we tend to remember the successful ones as if they are the only ones; and (2) we're talking about out-performing or under-performing your "normal" stats, so the greater a player is in general, the more successful they are going to be in clutch situations. If Derek Jeter wasn't a great player, he wouldn't have as many successful clutch performances (or opportunities, getting to the playoffs every year but 1 in his career). That doesn't make him clutch, it means he performs in the clutch about as he does normally - which is a very high level. that's what makes him appear clutch compared to Joe Schmoe's clutch performance with a career .650 OPS. Jeter's going to perform well in those situations because he is a great player to begin with.

All of this is not to say that pressure has no bearing on how someone performs when the game is on the line - it's just that, at least in baseball, it's been proven this isn't a talent or ability that can be consistently demonstrated over a career.

The inability to quantify clutch in baseball is more about the randomness in baseball than anything else.

What about football (since this is a football thread)? Is all the Eli talk meaningless because it doesn't matter if it's week 1 or the super bowl, the opening drive or running the two-minute drill, because there's no predictable patterns or meaningful performance differences?

To my knowledge, baseball is the only activity in life (sport or non-sport) that has "proven" to eliminate clutch performance as a consideration.

[jbergey22]

Yes. Blowing his knee out probably had nothing to do with Culpepper's collapse after Randy left.

Well you dont throw with your knee and other players have been able to find success after a knee injury.

Everyone in Minnesota knew he was overrated and laughed at the Dolphins for taking him at the time. He couldnt read a defense and when teams took Moss away from him he had no clue what to do. He had a great arm which was his only great quality.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The problem w/ football vs. baseball is sample size. Baseball was made for statisticians.

[Ksyrup]

Randomness is exactly it - there can be no clutch ability if it's random.

I don't really have a good feel for clutch in football. It's a much more intricately complicated, team-driven/connected sport, so I"m not sure what the answer is, or if there is an answer. Again, I'd say that it's not a coincidence that we're talking about some of the best players in the game in terms of being clutch, because they start from an elevated position over the rest to begin with.

[Kodos]

Well you dont throw with your knee and other players have been able to find success after a knee injury.

Everyone in Minnesota knew he was overrated and laughed at the Dolphins for taking him at the time. He couldnt read a defense and when teams took Moss away from him he had no clue what to do. He had a great arm which was his only great quality.

This actually illustrates why Rice was a better receiver, in a way. For many years, Moss was simply a guy who beat teams down the field all the time. He wasn't a great route runner. He was simply taller and faster than the defenders he was playing against, and he could outjump anyone he faced. Rice, on the other hand, could run any route in the book with precision.

[jeff061]

I'd say clutch in football is someone who has the game in his hands and doesn't fold under the pressure. Not necessarily playing better at key situations, just not playing worse. Definitely think it's a quality. Just look at McNabb (no I am never forgetting his super bowl choke).

Or Manning even before the last few years.

[Ksyrup]

That's exactly what I'm getting at - you're willing to make a decision on McNabb's "clutchness" based on one anecdotal incident that occurred in one big game that has hung with him that label. Ridiculous. As quality of a player as he's been in his career, I bet he's pulled out a bunch of games a lesser QB wouldn't have (to the extent you can attribute this fully to the QB, which I don't necessarily buy), and also had his share of games where he (and/or the team) have fallen short. Just like any QB.

[jbergey22]

This actually illustrates why Rice was a better receiver, in a way. For many years, Moss was simply a guy who beat teams down the field all the time. He wasn't a great route runner. He was simply taller and faster than the defenders he was playing against, and he could outjump anyone he faced. Rice, on the other hand, could run any route in the book with precision.

I agree with this.

The comments you make about Moss are the reasons I also feel he is underrated in a way. He is the one WR that teams had to change their entire defense for. You couldnt stick 8 in the box and leave him in single coverage or the defense would get torched. The Vikings would be among the league leaders in rushing every year when Moss played for them because teams would sit in the 2 deep zone and not come out of it as Moss was so feared.

With Moss as a WR Daunte didnt have to read a defense because most of the game he knew he was getting 2 deep zone with safetys 20+ yards down the field which made Daunte into a decent QB at the time.

Now with the Pats you see Welker wide open on all of these underneath routes. Moss makes all the players around him better because he forces teams into a certain defense and I believe that is why he has played on the two highest scoring offenses in NFL history.

The Moss you see today is a shell of the WR you seen 10 years ago and teams are still cautious about blitzing. He just has a great QB getting him the ball now.

[jeff061]

That's exactly what I'm getting at - you're willing to make a decision on McNabb's "clutchness" based on one anecdotal incident that occurred in one big game that has hung with him that label. Ridiculous. As quality of a player as he's been in his career, I bet he's pulled out a bunch of games a lesser QB wouldn't have (to the extent you can attribute this fully to the QB, which I don't necessarily buy), and also had his share of games where he (and/or the team) have fallen short. Just like any QB.

It's one thing to not succeed, no one's perfect. It's another thing to be dry heaving in the huddle in the final couple minutes.

[Shkspr]

How about the two highest scoring teams in NFL history
1998 Minnesota Vikings
2007 New England Patriots

having Moss as a key part of their offense.

Since it is arbitrary that QB's have great years with Moss as a WR. Is it also arbitrary that some of the highest scoring teams in NFL history have had him on the team as well?

You must hate any type of individual stats because they are all arbitrary.

You're getting better. You've excised the first of your sins. Now all you have to worry about is that you're still using the success of other teammates as your main argument, and you're ignoring the fact that the league and playcalling changed between the 80's and the 00's to open up the passing game more.

When discussing football players from different eras, most individual stats do make me throw up in my mouth a little bit, yeah. You followed the Redskins in the 80's; you can explain as well as anyone why Art Monk was a HOFer. The case for his greatness is all about recognizing the shape of traditional WR statistics in a rapidly changing era and how they provide at best an incomplete portrait of a player's contributions.

Whenever anyone tries to quantify all-time teams, the criteria we usuall have to fall back on is simple: how did the men who saw them play judge their abilities relative to their contemporaries? In numerical terms, how many All-Pro teams and Pro Bowls did they make? Jerry Rice's observers felt he was the top receiver in the league year in, year out, for more than a decade. 10 All Pros, 13 Pro Bowls. Randy Moss has been a reasonably solid performer who sometimes approached Rice's dominance. 4 All-Pros, 7 Pro Bowls. But there are as many as half a dozen of Moss's contemporaries that were as good or better in any given year - Harrison, T.O., Irvin, Fitzgerald, maybe Wayne, Holt, or Bruce. You can't say that about Rice at his peak. That's why Moss really can't pull up to that standard - you've got to dominate your own era before you can compare to someone who dominated theirs.

[Ksyrup]

It's one thing to not succeed, no one's perfect. It's another thing to be dry heaving in the huddle in the final couple minutes.

Donovan McNabb DID NOT throw up in Super Bowl XXXIX | Off the Record (OTR) (http://otrsportsonline.com/2010/03/30/donovan-mcnabb-did-not-throw-up-in-super-bowl-xxxix/)

[jeff061]

I said dry heaving :). Reguardless, it was clear to anyone who watched it he was not handling the pressure well. Just the way he was carrying himself. Anyways, going off on a tangent we won't agree on.

[molson]

That's exactly what I'm getting at - you're willing to make a decision on McNabb's "clutchness" based on one anecdotal incident that occurred in one big game that has hung with him that label. Ridiculous. As quality of a player as he's been in his career, I bet he's pulled out a bunch of games a lesser QB wouldn't have (to the extent you can attribute this fully to the QB, which I don't necessarily buy), and also had his share of games where he (and/or the team) have fallen short. Just like any QB.

It's definitely not "fair", but it's one of many random events that make up how things go down - it was a series of random events that got McNabb to the NFL in the first place.

If you're a trial attorney, and you have a solid career, and during then your one shot at a major multi-million dollar lawsuit, you crap your pants and stammer your words during your closing argument, that's going to be tough to overcome. Even if there was just a lot of bad luck involved. That attorney still blew it.

In sports, we think we can tame the chaos with stats, but we really can't - we can only describe what results the chaos produced.

[Logan]

The comments you make about Moss are the reasons I also feel he is underrated in a way. He is the one WR that teams had to change their entire defense for. You couldnt stick 8 in the box and leave him in single coverage or the defense would get torched.

Ugh.

[Ksyrup]

It's definitely not "fair", but it's one of many random events that make up how things go down - it was a series of random events that got McNabb to the NFL in the first place.

If you're a trial attorney, and you have a solid career, and during then your one shot at a major multi-million dollar lawsuit, you crap your pants and stammer your words during your closing argument, that's going to be tough to overcome. Even if there was just a lot of bad luck involved. That attorney still blew it.

In sports, we think we can tame the chaos with stats, but we really can't - we can only describe what results the chaos produced.

I understand that it helps write the narrative of the hindsight conclusion to be drawn, but that doesn't really mean either of them is clutch or not.

Jake Delhomme was unbelieveably great in the SB against the Patriots and then 6 years later, tossed 5 INTs in a playoff loss to AZ. Prior to that game, the narrative would have been that he was a clutch player just based on his SB performance. So what changed?

[molson]

Jake Delhomme was unbelieveably great in the SB against the Patriots and then 6 years later, tossed 5 INTs in a playoff loss to AZ. Prior to that game, the narrative would have been that he was a clutch player just based on his SB performance. So what changed?

People who believe that performance can be relevant to the situation at hand don't claim that that can always be predicted with 100% accuracy. Brett Favre could go on a run, throw no big interceptions, and lead the Vikings to the super bowl this year. Tom Brady could get to an AFC Championship game and throw a couple of late interceptions. Nothing "changed". There's just a ton of variables.

That doesn't mean some guys aren't better bets in playoff situations than others, and that list of "best bets" might be somewhat (but not dramatically) different than "best bets" for the 1st half of week 1.

[JPhillips]

I can buy the idea of an athlete getting nervous and making mental mistakes under intense pressure. What I've never been able to accept is that some athletes perform better under pressure than during normal games. Why don't they perform up to their ability during the majority of playing time and why would we want to praise those individuals?

[molson]

I can buy the idea of an athlete getting nervous and making mental mistakes under intense pressure. What I've never been able to accept is that some athletes perform better under pressure than during normal games. Why don't they perform up to their ability during the majority of playing time and why would we want to praise those individuals?

The baseball stat people would tell us even that the "failing under pressure" thing doesn't exist in that sport.

Almost everyone should perform somewhat better than "normally" in the most important situations. Human nature. Few people are at their best 100% of the time. That gets a little complicated in sports because your better performance is directly matched up against someone else's better performance. So you might play better, but have worse stats than normal. So eyeball observations, and evaluating situations on a case-by-case basis, are still important.

[Ksyrup]

Exactly. I mean, you might find an example of someone who shits the bed EVERY SINGLE TIME he is in a pressure situation, but I doubt it. And if you found him, I hope he hada short career, because if stuff like that was really predictive, then tteams would stay away.

Certainly, people react differently to pressure; and in fact, a single individual can react differently to pressure in different situations. But I haven't seen any support (other than anecdotal) for the idea that people have a special ability/talent to rise to another level consistently in pressure situations.

[Ksyrup]

The baseball stat people would tell us even that the "failing under pressure" thing doesn't exist in that sport.

No, that's not true. It's whether you can determine a pattern or consistency to failures or "rising above" so as to identify a specific trait/ability that can be predicted. When they talk about "clutch" existing or not, that's the baseline they are working from. No one fails or rises under pressure 95% of the time they are in those situations (however you define them).

[JPhillips]

Exactly. I mean, you might find an example of someone who shits the bed EVERY SINGLE TIME he is in a pressure situation, but I doubt it. And if you found him, I hope he hada short career, because if stuff like that was really predictive, then tteams would stay away.

Certainly, people react differently to pressure; and in fact, a single individual can react differently to pressure in different situations. But I haven't seen any support (other than anecdotal) for the idea that people have a special ability/talent to rise to another level consistently in pressure situations.

I'd agree that those people wouldn't generally reach the highest level of their sport. Just getting to the majors requires any number of clutch performances. It's just that I can buy the possibility of reduced performance under pressure. I'm a theatre director and professor and I see that all the time.

I'll never be convinced that performance can be raised under pressure. The numbers don't bear it out and I don't have any evidence in my career that that type of performance could come from anything other than laziness in lower pressure situations.

[Sun Tzu]

You're getting better. You've excised the first of your sins. Now all you have to worry about is that you're still using the success of other teammates as your main argument, and you're ignoring the fact that the league and playcalling changed between the 80's and the 00's to open up the passing game more.

When discussing football players from different eras, most individual stats do make me throw up in my mouth a little bit, yeah. You followed the Redskins in the 80's; you can explain as well as anyone why Art Monk was a HOFer. The case for his greatness is all about recognizing the shape of traditional WR statistics in a rapidly changing era and how they provide at best an incomplete portrait of a player's contributions.

Whenever anyone tries to quantify all-time teams, the criteria we usuall have to fall back on is simple: how did the men who saw them play judge their abilities relative to their contemporaries? In numerical terms, how many All-Pro teams and Pro Bowls did they make? Jerry Rice's observers felt he was the top receiver in the league year in, year out, for more than a decade. 10 All Pros, 13 Pro Bowls. Randy Moss has been a reasonably solid performer who sometimes approached Rice's dominance. 4 All-Pros, 7 Pro Bowls. But there are as many as half a dozen of Moss's contemporaries that were as good or better in any given year - Harrison, T.O., Irvin, Fitzgerald, maybe Wayne, Holt, or Bruce. You can't say that about Rice at his peak. That's why Moss really can't pull up to that standard - you've got to dominate your own era before you can compare to someone who dominated theirs.

this

Fabulous post.

[flere-imsaho]

The great thing about "clutch" is that you can argue about it more-or-less indefinitely. :D

[JediKooter]

My big beef against Moss is: You lay a good hit on him, he's done for the rest of the game. Won't finish routes, will cut his routes short and will alligator arm any catch that isn't hitting him right on the numbers. I can't ever recall seeing Rice doing that.

[molson]

The great thing about "clutch" is that you can argue about it more-or-less indefinitely. :D

Especially since Ksyrup's aruging skills really rise to another level when it comes to this topic. :)

[TroyF]

I'd say clutch in football is someone who has the game in his hands and doesn't fold under the pressure. Not necessarily playing better at key situations, just not playing worse. Definitely think it's a quality. Just look at McNabb (no I am never forgetting his super bowl choke).

Or Manning even before the last few years.


I'm stunned at this post. I know other people have read it and commented on it, but I'm still stunned.

I know, McNabb threw up in the Super Bowl. Some say he was sick, others say the nerves got to him. I don't care either way, it happened.

But has anyone even bothered to look at:

a) his numbers in that game

or

b) what the other "top QB's" who faced the Patriots in the playoffs did?

As to one, McNabb threw for 357 yards in the game. Of course, he had to because the Eagles didn't have a ground game worth a crap in the game. 2.6 yards a carry and 44 total yards on the ground for Philly. That forced McNabb to throw the ball 51 times. The game was tied to start the fourth quarter. Down 10 in the fourth, Mcnabb led a 13 play drive to score a TD and cut it to 3. His famous throw up incident? It occured on the four yard line with 46 seconds left in the game. Yeah, lots of QB's beat the Patriots in that situation in 2004.

Nobody really wants to talk about how the Eagles had 3 TD drives of over 70 yards in the game.

Nobody wants to bother with the fact that with the Patriots at the peak of their powers, virtually any QB throwing the ball 51 times against them would end up with some turnovers. Bruschi made a big INT on him in the fourth. . . OMG, how many times did we see that happen in Bruschi's career?

As for b, the Patriots defense dismantled both Peyton Manning and Big Ben that year in the playoffs. Completely wiped them out and made them look like fools.

McNabb didn't have a career defining game that day, but he didn't play like the garbage people have made it seem like for years either.

[molson]

McNabb has had a problem with puking and dry heaving since college. I don't know if that's a physical thing or a mental thing or impacts his performance at all, but he was always puking everywhere at Syracuse.

[JediKooter]

Yes, I seem to remember McNabb having a pretty decent game in that SB. It was other parts of the team that let it get away. Special teams I think? I can't remember exactly.

[jeff061]

Well I was speaking specifically in the final few minutes when the game was on the line, he didn't just play bad, he folded.

Prior to that he didn't have a spectacular game, but it certainly wasn't bad.

[Alan T]

The biggest problem that I have with "clutch" in the NFL is that I haven't really seen a good definition of what it is supposed to mean. Does it mean that they win the Super bowl every time they start at QB in the super bowl despite the other players on their team?

Does it mean they having winning records in the playoffs?

Does it mean that they simply don't throw interceptions in the playoffs?

Or does it also carry over to "big games" during the regular season? Would those big games be historical rivals, or teams ahead of them in the standings?

Or does Clutch simply mean another word for lack of nervousness? Would that mean McNabb dry heaving means he is not clutch? So most rookies likely aren't clutch either thanks to their nerves?

Does it mean a player with more experience that does better in late game situations thanks to that experience? (ie: John Elway became "more" clutch as his career went on), if so does that mean Joe Montana became less clutch?

To me clutch just feels like some nebulous word that people throw out there for someone making an incredible play above and beyond the norm for them. ie: I don't hear many people talking about Peyton manning being clutch because he simply has always gone out there and done what everyone expected of him. Make a completion on every single pass.

Perhaps if there was a better definition of what clutch actually meant, then there would be some scale to actually measure which players are or are not clutch. Until then it just feels like a moving target that fits better into bar room conversations than statistical debate.

[Lathum]

I'm stunned at this post. I know other people have read it and commented on it, but I'm still stunned.

I know, McNabb threw up in the Super Bowl. Some say he was sick, others say the nerves got to him. I don't care either way, it happened.

But has anyone even bothered to look at:

a) his numbers in that game

or

b) what the other "top QB's" who faced the Patriots in the playoffs did?

As to one, McNabb threw for 357 yards in the game. Of course, he had to because the Eagles didn't have a ground game worth a crap in the game. 2.6 yards a carry and 44 total yards on the ground for Philly. That forced McNabb to throw the ball 51 times. The game was tied to start the fourth quarter. Down 10 in the fourth, Mcnabb led a 13 play drive to score a TD and cut it to 3. His famous throw up incident? It occured on the four yard line with 46 seconds left in the game. Yeah, lots of QB's beat the Patriots in that situation in 2004.

Nobody really wants to talk about how the Eagles had 3 TD drives of over 70 yards in the game.

Nobody wants to bother with the fact that with the Patriots at the peak of their powers, virtually any QB throwing the ball 51 times against them would end up with some turnovers. Bruschi made a big INT on him in the fourth. . . OMG, how many times did we see that happen in Bruschi's career?

As for b, the Patriots defense dismantled both Peyton Manning and Big Ben that year in the playoffs. Completely wiped them out and made them look like fools.

McNabb didn't have a career defining game that day, but he didn't play like the garbage people have made it seem like for years either.

Eli would have ran it in for a game winning TD the puked on Bradys shoes...

[jeff061]

As long as he didn't puke on his dreamy hair.

[Desnudo]

I'd agree that those people wouldn't generally reach the highest level of their sport. Just getting to the majors requires any number of clutch performances. It's just that I can buy the possibility of reduced performance under pressure. I'm a theatre director and professor and I see that all the time.

I'll never be convinced that performance can be raised under pressure. The numbers don't bear it out and I don't have any evidence in my career that that type of performance could come from anything other than laziness in lower pressure situations.

Really? People raise (or lower) their game in all aspects of life in response to stress situations. You couldn't possibly expect someone to operate at full tilt 24/7.

To me, the best microcosm is the military.

[spleen1015]

If it was never mentioned by TO that McNabb puked, no one would be talking about it today.

[Kodos]

As long as he didn't puke on his dreamy hair plugs.

Fixed!

[BishopMVP]

Guys. . .

The Moss complaint of the contract is the first step. It's a step he's taken multiple times. Lets say he torches Revis on Sunday. 10 catches, 140 yards, 2 TD. Something like that. Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

He's going to take it as a slap in the face. The guy is moody and petulant. I don't buy that he'll continue to go balls to the wall if he feels he's being disrespected. Brady? He'd have been professional and worked his ass off all year. Owens? As big of a douche as he is, he always played hard, despite dropping a ton of passes. Moss? He'll quit. He's done it time and time again. He'll break your heart.

All of that said. . . hell, I hope you are right. I hope Randy plays hard. He's a fun guy to watch even if he is a dick. I just don't buy that he's changed anything.Here's Randy Moss' game log - Randy Moss Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MossRa00/gamelog/) - do you want to point out the multiple years he's quit on his team and stopped producing? I'll give you 2006 on a 2-14 Raiders team. Other than that, I don't see it. Is there a media narrative out there that he has? Quite possibly, but based off the way the media attacks certain players around here I would trust his on-field performance more than what writers say.I'd say clutch in football is someone who has the game in his hands and doesn't fold under the pressure. Not necessarily playing better at key situations, just not playing worse. Definitely think it's a quality. Just look at McNabb (no I am never forgetting his super bowl choke).

Or Manning even before the last few years.This (and A-Rod) are why these arguments ring hollow for me (and I know I was on the side taunting Peyton and Rodriguez at one point). Did something magically change and click for these players? Or did a confluence of factors they have little control over and the inherent randomness involved finally fall their way?

[JPhillips]

The great thing about "clutch" is that you can argue about it more-or-less indefinitely. :D

But do some of us argue much better about clutch than any other topic?

[Passacaglia]

No, some of us quit on our arguing when it's not going well.

[DanGarion]

The NFL also reacted Tuesday when Clinton Portis(notes), the outspoken running back for the Washington Redskins, said in his weekly appearance on a radio: “I think you put women reporters in the locker room in position to see guys walking around naked, and you sit in the locker room with 53 guys, and all of the sudden you see a nice woman in the locker room. I think men are going to tend to turn and look and want to say something to that woman.”

Aiello said the comments were “clearly inappropriate, offensive, and have no place in the NFL.”

Really? Portis had to apologize for that? WTF.

[Travis]

Heh, the full quote goes like this though:

"You know man, I think you put women reporters in the locker room in positions to see guys walking around naked, and you sit in the locker room with 53 guys, and all of the sudden you see a nice woman in the locker room, I think men are gonna tend to turn and look and want to say something to that woman. For the woman, I think they make it so much that you can't interact and you can't be involved with athletes, you can't talk to these guys, you can't interact with these guys.

"And I mean, you put a woman and you give her a choice of 53 athletes, somebody got to be appealing to her. You know, somebody got to spark her interest, or she's gonna want somebody. I don't know what kind of woman won't, if you get to go and look at 53 men's packages. And you're just sitting here, saying 'Oh, none of this is attractive to me.' I know you're doing a job, but at the same time, the same way I'm gonna cut my eye if I see somebody worth talking to, I'm sure they do the same thing."

Note, emphasis in the quotes were from the site I copied from, not mine.

[hoopsguy]

Kodos, Rice has 11 vs Moss' 7. And 3 of Rice's seasons took place beyond the age of 32 - if Moss matches that he'll have 10 seasons in the top 250.

If Moss isn't fit to sniff Rice's jock then what receivers do you think are? I think the career numbers of Randy Moss are going to be pretty staggering when he is done. Doesn't make him a good guy, fan favorite, player you root for, good interview, someone you want your daughter to date, or anything having to do with personality.

But if Moss never plays another game he will still be one of the most prolific wide receivers in the history of the NFL.

Current #'s:
Receptions: 931 (10th)
Yards: 14,524 (6th)
TD: 148 (2nd)
Receiving Yards/Game: 77.7 (2nd)

Factor in the "quality" of QBs before he landed in New England, and I think there is a compelling argument to be made for him as the 2nd greatest receiver of all time already based on the numbers. But he is going to pile on more numbers, and he is going to approach, if not pass, some of the Rice marks.

Pretty clear to me that if Moss isn't sniffing Rice's jock that no one is.

[hoopsguy]

This actually illustrates why Rice was a better receiver, in a way. For many years, Moss was simply a guy who beat teams down the field all the time. He wasn't a great route runner. He was simply taller and faster than the defenders he was playing against, and he could outjump anyone he faced. Rice, on the other hand, could run any route in the book with precision.

This argument is like diminishing Wilt's scoring marks because he was taller than anyone. Or that Shaq leading the league in scoring (not sure he ever did) because "all he ever did was dunk" ... well, if it is that easy why isn't anyone else doing it.

Fact is, Moss was/is a freak athlete. He has unbelievable physical skills and that translated into some of the most amazing WR stats we've ever seen. Did he have shortcomings? Yep, but I'm guessing the next generation who sees his stats instead of his game film will be much kinder than you are in the quoted paragraph.

[jeff061]

This (and A-Rod) are why these arguments ring hollow for me (and I know I was on the side taunting Peyton and Rodriguez at one point). Did something magically change and click for these players? Or did a confluence of factors they have little control over and the inherent randomness involved finally fall their way?

I don't think anything clicked. Just more experience in general. Becomes old hat.

[DanGarion]

Ah, I didn't see the full quote in the article I was reading.
Heh, the full quote goes like this though:

"You know man, I think you put women reporters in the locker room in positions to see guys walking around naked, and you sit in the locker room with 53 guys, and all of the sudden you see a nice woman in the locker room, I think men are gonna tend to turn and look and want to say something to that woman. For the woman, I think they make it so much that you can't interact and you can't be involved with athletes, you can't talk to these guys, you can't interact with these guys.

"And I mean, you put a woman and you give her a choice of 53 athletes, somebody got to be appealing to her. You know, somebody got to spark her interest, or she's gonna want somebody. I don't know what kind of woman won't, if you get to go and look at 53 men's packages. And you're just sitting here, saying 'Oh, none of this is attractive to me.' I know you're doing a job, but at the same time, the same way I'm gonna cut my eye if I see somebody worth talking to, I'm sure they do the same thing."

Note, emphasis in the quotes were from the site I copied from, not mine.

[Matthean]

Heh, the full quote goes like this though:

"You know man, I think you put women reporters in the locker room in positions to see guys walking around naked, and you sit in the locker room with 53 guys, and all of the sudden you see a nice woman in the locker room, I think men are gonna tend to turn and look and want to say something to that woman. For the woman, I think they make it so much that you can't interact and you can't be involved with athletes, you can't talk to these guys, you can't interact with these guys.

"And I mean, you put a woman and you give her a choice of 53 athletes, somebody got to be appealing to her. You know, somebody got to spark her interest, or she's gonna want somebody. I don't know what kind of woman won't, if you get to go and look at 53 men's packages. And you're just sitting here, saying 'Oh, none of this is attractive to me.' I know you're doing a job, but at the same time, the same way I'm gonna cut my eye if I see somebody worth talking to, I'm sure they do the same thing."

Note, emphasis in the quotes were from the site I copied from, not mine.

The fact that she would be attracted to any of the players is irrelevant. The fact that a player can't keep themselves in check while around the rest of their teammates in a business situation is the player's fault. Period.

[molson]

I agree with the sentiment going around today that nobody should be in the locker room. I mean, how did it become accepted for reporters to barge in and ask athletes questions when they're still naked? What the hell is that?

[Atocep]

I agree with the sentiment going around today that nobody should be in the locker room. I mean, how did it become accepted for reporters to barge in and ask athletes questions when they're still naked? What the hell is that?

Agreed. There's zero reason for reporters to be in the locker room right after a game.

[jeff061]

Agreed. There's zero reason for reporters to be in the locker room right after a game.

That's the thing. It's only a "business situation" because the reporters are there. Everything else going on in that environment runs directly contrary to that label.

[flere-imsaho]

I agree with the sentiment going around today that nobody should be in the locker room. I mean, how did it become accepted for reporters to barge in and ask athletes questions when they're still naked? What the hell is that?

Once again I find myself in agreement with you today.

[DaddyTorgo]

Imagine if Moss had played with Brady his whole career? Yikes.

Rice was amazing, no doubt. But he also benefited from playing with 2 of the top QB's in NFL history for his entire career (minus that abortion in Oakland).

[Groundhog]

Yeah, I think it's stupid and idiotic to allow that to happen as well. Hopefully due to this latest issue the NFL might put a stop to it.

[Danny]

Imagine if Moss had played with Brady his whole career? Yikes.

Rice was amazing, no doubt. But he also benefited from playing with 2 of the top QB's in NFL history for his entire career (minus that abortion in Oakland).

Actually Rice was with the Raiders when they had Gannon and were a yearly playoff team.

[Suicane75]

I wanna be the first male reporter in the locker room at the National Cheerleading Championships.

[MizzouRah]

Damn you beat me to it. I hate the mofo but he is a bad ass. I remember him hitting Lorenzo Neal one time back in I think the 2001 playoffs so hard that he not only killed Neal but all of his future children. Probably the greatest linebacker I have ever seen along with LT and Derrick Brooks.

Agreed.. I would not want to see him lineup against me.

[Jughead Spock]

I've had to come to terms with my Moss respect. He's absolutely the most freaky-talented WR I've ever seen, bar none. But he's also a headcase, and it drags him down overall. If I had a choice between Rice in his prime and Moss in his prime, in any situation, Rice wins every time without hesitation.

[TroyF]

Well I was speaking specifically in the final few minutes when the game was on the line, he didn't just play bad, he folded.

Prior to that he didn't have a spectacular game, but it certainly wasn't bad.

Again, that's kind of the problem with reality. His final two drives were a 79 yard TD drive and then getting the ball with 46 seconds left on his own 4 yard line. They went 4 and out on the four yard line against a very good defense.

To put that into perspective, after the Giants scored their TD against the Pats, Tom Brady got the ball back on his own 26 with 35 seconds left. He went four and out with a sack thrown in.

You remember him "folding" but the reality is getting the ball on the 4 yard line with 46 seconds left, no timeouts and the Patriots defense on the other side is something that had a 2% chance of success at best to begin with.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

that sb still pisses me off. the pats knew the eagles defensive signals. every time they blitzed they threw a screen in the hole. every. time.

[TroyF]

Bishop,

That's kind of the other thing with Randy. He'll still put up stats. The guy is a freak. The problem isn't the raw stats, it's the effort. What those numbers won't show is Randy not blocking on running plays. Randy not running routes when he isn't the #1 target of the route. Randy not going up for balls over the middle and getting passes picked off.

This stuff is pretty well documented. I can understand where a Patriots fan is going to say "he'll be different for us, he won't pull that with Brady and Beli"

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe he won't. But for those of us without a dog in the fight, Randy is going to have to prove he's changed. I'll believe it when I see it. (FWIW, just that fact that even Patriots fans admit that if the season were falling apart, Randy would, kind of shows that even you guys understand the guys character. I'm pretty sure none of you would be making the same statements about Wes Welker if the Pats were 2-6, correct?)

[jeff061]

Well you talk about him like he is new here with the "He'll be different for us", but he is in his 4th year now, went through all the offseason workouts for the first time and just looks as good as he ever has. He realyl had a hell of a camp, pre-season and was great in the first game.

[Lathum]

Why are we talking so much about Moss when Hakeem Nicks had 3 TD's this week?

[JS19]

Why are we talking so much about Moss when Hakeem Nicks had 3 TD's this week?

+1.... On a bum ankle, to boot. Now that's effort!

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

When a game is coming down to the wire, I want all my passes thrown to a truly great WR, like a Moss, a Rice, a Largent, or a Nicks.

[DaddyTorgo]

When a game is coming down to the wire, I want all my passes thrown to a truly great WR, like a Moss, a Rice, a Largent, or a Nicks.

One of these things is not like the other.

Well okay...i guess you could make arguments about that two ways. ;)

[MrBug708]

Jerry Rice Jr plays for UCLA. Unfortunately for us, the apple fell pretty far from the tree

[TroyF]

Well you talk about him like he is new here with the "He'll be different for us", but he is in his 4th year now, went through all the offseason workouts for the first time and just looks as good as he ever has. He realyl had a hell of a camp, pre-season and was great in the first game.


This is the first time he's felt disrespected by you though. Big difference.

[JPhillips]

When a game is coming down to the wire, I want all my passes thrown to a truly great WR, like a Moss, a Rice, a Largent, or a Nicks.

I'd say that proves the theory that all great receivers have three syllable names.

[Arles]

so what is the argument of contention involving Rice or Moss?

If it's Moss isn't as great as Rice, I don't see anyone disagreeing. Rice was basically the greatness of Jim Brown with the longevity of Walter Payton. Even if Moss is potentially as great, he's only had half the seasons of Rice. IMO, Moss will never be as great as Rice when it's all said and done - but he certainly isn't there now.

If it's "Moss isn't close to Rice", then that's pretty tough on Moss. Here are the total numbers for both guys in their first 12 seasons:

Rice: 1050 catches for 16,377 yards and 154 TDs (ave 87 - 1364 - 12.8 TDs)
Moss: 926 catches for 14,465 yards and 148 TDs (ave 77 - 1205 - 12.3 TDs)

I would say that based on their first 12 seasons, Moss is certainly sniffing Rice's jock. Now, will he get another 6,500 yards in the next 7 seasons like Rice did? The odds are pretty long there. But, when it's all said and done, Moss will probably go down as the second best WR since 1980. That's pretty impressive and if he plays another 3-4 seasons and gets 3,000 yards - he will certainly be in the discussion with Rice.

[jeff061]

This is the first time he's felt disrespected by you though. Big difference.

See, I don't think he feels disrespected, reading everything he has said. I don't think that's driving this. He really truly wants to stay in NE, hasn't heard anything and is getting anxious. Take a number.

[molson]

This is the first time he's felt disrespected by you though. Big difference.

He's already delivered more than advertised. He's been great for 3 years. I don't believe he'll completely run off the tracks in a contract year, but even if he did, he was different for more years than anyone thought.

And all of this "he's done" talk is still just based on one spirited media session. Perhaps a bit premature.

[Kodos]

FWIW, I don't think the NFL has ever seen a more physically gifted WR than Moss. Or a harder worker than Rice.

[Dr. Sak]

If anyone in here is interested I got to have a long discussion with the Referee of the Detroit/Chicago game about the call at the end of the game. It was about 20 minutes long and he we watched the play over and over again as he dissected it the way he did as he looked under the hood.

If you want the Readers Digest version send me a PM and I'll give you my summary, we can discuss the play if you'd like too.

[jbergey22]

If anyone in here is interested I got to have a long discussion with the Referee of the Detroit/Chicago game about the call at the end of the game. It was about 20 minutes long and he we watched the play over and over again as he dissected it the way he did as he looked under the hood.

If you want the Readers Digest version send me a PM and I'll give you my summary, we can discuss the play if you'd like too.

Did you agree with the call?

[Neuqua]

I think it's the right call on a bad rule.

[Kodos]

Kinda like the tuck rule in Raiders vs. Patriots?

[jbergey22]

463 yards to 168 yards. I am actually glad the call went the way it did. Lions didnt deserve that game. They were pathetic 95 percent of that game.

[Dr. Sak]

Did you agree with the call?

Yes

[Mustang]

463 yards to 168 yards. I am actually glad the call went the way it did. Lions didnt deserve that game. They were pathetic 95 percent of that game.

Just because the Bears had alot of yardage doesn't mean their performance was any less pathetic.

[Logan]

so what is the argument of contention involving Rice or Moss?

In all honesty, the entire argument began because of hyperbole.

[Passacaglia]

If anyone in here is interested I got to have a long discussion with the Referee of the Detroit/Chicago game about the call at the end of the game. It was about 20 minutes long and he we watched the play over and over again as he dissected it the way he did as he looked under the hood.

If you want the Readers Digest version send me a PM and I'll give you my summary, we can discuss the play if you'd like too.

Is there any reason you can't just post the summary? I'm still worked up about this, and I'm up for discussing it.

[Coffee Warlord]

Is there any reason you can't just post the summary? I'm still worked up about this, and I'm up for discussing it.

+1. If there is a reason, consider me PMing you (Sak, not Passa). :)

[MikeVic]

I'd like a PM as well, if it can't be public knowledge.

[stevew]

me too.

I understand the whole "you gotta be able to hand the ball to the official thing. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

[Passacaglia]

me too.

I understand the whole "you gotta be able to hand the ball to the official thing. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

I don't think I've heard that one. H_B and I had a mini-discussion of the rule in here, but I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.

[stevew]

Basically, one of the refs said that the easiest test to see if it's a catch in the endzone is if you can hand the ball to the ref after you're done. Hell, it might have been Chris Carter now that I think about it.

[BishopMVP]

What those numbers won't show is Randy not blocking on running plays. Randy not running routes when he isn't the #1 target of the route. Randy not going up for balls over the middle and getting passes picked off.

This stuff is pretty well documented. I can understand where a Patriots fan is going to say "he'll be different for us, he won't pull that with Brady and Beli"

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe he won't. But for those of us without a dog in the fight, Randy is going to have to prove he's changed. I'll believe it when I see it. (FWIW, just that fact that even Patriots fans admit that if the season were falling apart, Randy would, kind of shows that even you guys understand the guys character. I'm pretty sure none of you would be making the same statements about Wes Welker if the Pats were 2-6, correct?)According to the media (and I agree to an extent), Randy isn't a good blocker, he doesn't run 100% on certain routes, and he isn't good over the middle. We've been hearing that since before he even arrived. In some senses it's been surprisingly wrong - I've seen some really nice blocks by Moss, and it's impossible to tell from TV angles whether he's running hard off-screen - but it has some semblance of truth to it, particularly the fact he's not good on crossing routes once he gets hit once. The thing is, we've been hearing that the whole time - not that Randy will start doing it if he's disrespected, not that Randy will start doing it when the team is losing, but that that's his game period. There's also strong evidence he gives up in hopeless losing situations like the Raiders.

Where I disagree with you is the idea that he'll give up because he feels disrespected, that there is a repeated pattern in the past, and that playing without a contract extension is the reason behind this. All his public comments come down to the fact that he wants to stay here - evidence that he doesn't feel disrespected to the point he wants out -, he's played on a 1-year contract in the past (2007), and the only season I can see where he was a distraction and hurt the team was the second consecutive 12+ loss season in Oakland.

There's also the fact that I don't worry about Wes Welker giving up if we're 4-9, but half-speed Randy Moss is still more valuable than full-speed Wes Welker. It's quite simple - Randy Moss requires safety help over the top almost every play, and the rest of the offense can run 10v9. You can plug 7th round draft picks and marginal free agents into Welker's slot position and get 90% of the production - there are maybe 7-8 other receivers in the game who can still demand the double team like Moss does.

[Dr. Sak]

Is there any reason you can't just post the summary? I'm still worked up about this, and I'm up for discussing it.

The reason being is that this guy is my boss and holds my future in officiating in the palm of his hands. I dont want to post the discussion on a public board and have some one bad mouth him, then I have to defend him and it could get messy. And for the most part you can figure out who I am by my handle.

However I love talking about officiating and I would do more back and forth with people in PM because PMs aren't something that can be searched via google.

[Dr. Sak]

Let me throw this as a discussion point. Watch the play again...then rewind and watch it again and imagine that Calvin Johnson doesn't have the ball. Tell me the point where his act of falling ceases.

[Passacaglia]

Well hopefully I get a PM, but to answer your last post, my thought would be that since he's in the end zone, it doesn't matter when his act of falling ceases, and if he weren't in the end zone, his act of falling ceases when he's on the ground and someone touches him.

[Dr. Sak]

You'll get a PM...I just got home from working a game...I'll send it to you tomorrow.

[Dr. Sak]

Well hopefully I get a PM, but to answer your last post, my thought would be that since he's in the end zone, it doesn't matter when his act of falling ceases, and if he weren't in the end zone, his act of falling ceases when he's on the ground and someone touches him.

That's incorrect...for the possession of a catch...it doesn't matter if you are in the field of play or in the end zone, if you fall to the ground you MUST come up with the ball in full possession.

The argument that others like to use is how the ball is dead when the runner crosses the goaline. The difference there is that the runner already has possession of the ball via a hand off or a catch in the field of play. So that is not the same as this case.

[Passacaglia]

Well hopefully I get a PM, but to answer your last post, my thought would be that since he's in the end zone, it doesn't matter when his act of falling ceases, and if he weren't in the end zone, his act of falling ceases when he's on the ground and someone touches him.

I wrote this before I went to sleep, and as I was sleeping, I realized it came off snottier than I meant it to. I definitely understand your reasons for not posting -- and I was just trying to request a PM like the other guys did!

Also, I didn't answer your question well, I think -- I was still thinking of him having the ball. If I'm imagining that he doesn't have the ball, then his act of falling ceases as soon as he hits the ground -- after that, he's bouncing.

[Passacaglia]

That's incorrect...for the possession of a catch...it doesn't matter if you are in the field of play or in the end zone, if you fall to the ground you MUST come up with the ball in full possession.

The argument that others like to use is how the ball is dead when the runner crosses the goaline. The difference there is that the runner already has possession of the ball via a hand off or a catch in the field of play. So that is not the same as this case.

That seems more like an interpretation of the rule, than what the rule actually is. Which is fine, sometimes rules need to be interpreted because they're bad. The rule says:


"If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.


What annoys me is all the TV guys saying that it's a stupid rule, but that's the way it is when it seems more like it's a poorly-written rule, with an arbitrary interpretation.

[Dr. Sak]

That seems more like an interpretation of the rule, than what the rule actually is. Which is fine, sometimes rules need to be interpreted because they're bad. The rule says:

What annoys me is all the TV guys saying that it's a stupid rule, but that's the way it is when it seems more like it's a poorly-written rule, with an arbitrary interpretation.

It is an interpretation but so are 100s of other rules in football for that matter. Holding...there is a definition of holding and then you use that definition to define or interpret what holding is on the field. Holding has to created a clear advantage of one team over another. You can grasp a shirt but if there is no advantage there is no holding penalty however technically by rule there may be holding.

I am going to give you a little advice about announcers...unless they played the game they are wrong on the rules over 50% of the time. It really angers me when I am at a party watching a game and an announcer misstates a rule or an interpretation, people at the party get pissed, but if I explain to them what the rule really states or what the interpretation is they understand.

I'll give you another rule/interpretation...for blocks in the back the rule states in so many words it is a block by an offensive guy that initiates on the back of the defensive guy. What is not stated in the rules is that if the defender turns his back, there is no foul. But the officials are taught to interpret it that way.

As for the catch/no catch rule...you have to draw the line somewhere. It use to be that the player had to make a "football move" well then there was trouble because what is a football move? This isn't a black and white situation.

So during the play Johnson falls to the ground (using the ball to break his fall so it hits the ground)...in order to complete the catch he must stand up with possession on the ball OR lay on the ground and have possession of the ball. As he comes to his feet watch the hand he has the ball in. You can tell that he still is squeezing the ball tight. The reason you can tell that is because when the ball slips through his fingers (and yes it does slip) his fingers clench up, like they would if you were squeezing a wet ball, for example, and it slipped through his hands. So at that point it was determined that he did not have control of the ball as he got back up like he should have.

Listen I know you have a vested rooting interest in the game. But there are so many little things that could have happened in that play for the call to be changed to a catch. If he stays on the ground with it. If he comes up and hands it to the referee...if he got up and threw it in the air. The main factor was the way his hands where on the ball and how they ended up after the ball slipped through his hands which were the determining factor of this call. This is a game of inches and sometimes shorter. We're taught not to try to get into the players/coaches heads as to what their intentions are on a player, we are taught to call the play as we see it.

Hoped this helped a bit and I may not get to sending you a PM since I have work today...High School game tonight, College game tomorrow and Sunday. But I wanted to answer you so you didn't think I was blowing you off. I'd be more than happy to discuss this more if ya'll want.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am going to give you a little advice about announcers...unless they played the game they are wrong on the rules over 50% of the time.

On behalf of announcers everywhere, I'll mention that a .500 average is better than what we're frequently seeing at the high school level in Georgia these days.

The rapid expansion of high schools has apparently diminished the pool of officials here to the point that we've seen crews that can't even mark off simple penalties correctly in two of the first three weeks.

[Dr. Sak]

On behalf of announcers everywhere, I'll mention that a .500 average is better than what we're frequently seeing at the high school level in Georgia these days.

The rapid expansion of high schools has apparently diminished the pool of officials here to the point that we've seen crews that can't even mark off simple penalties correctly in two of the first three weeks.

Jon I won't aruge that because we are seeing the same thing where I am from. No one wants to be an official anymore, and really who can blame them? The harassment I get during and after game from fans, coaches, and players is not for the weak minded. Heck I was terrified my first year, but now that I know the rules and am confident in my mechanics I can explain better why a call was made. But this is a process that takes a few years..

Officials are getting thrown into games that they have no business being in for at least 2 to 3 years. Heck I was one, I was thrown onto a crew at the Quad A level in Pennsylvania (highest level of High School in the state) having worked only 3 JV games the year before. Luckily I was surrounded by 5 other members who were 15+ years in the business and taught me the right way to do things.

My remark about announcers wasn't a knock at all of them, but nothing frustrates me more than to listen to Craig James or Doug Flutie spout off about how bad a call, or how a Pass Intereference was missed when they don't know that if the ball is tipped at the line of scrimmage by the defense, that there are no pass intereference restrictions anymore. So the official gets bad mouthed by someone not knowing a simple rule and the official has no one defending him.