I'm sick and tired of people telling me not to get upset.

[Toddzilla]

This is a general attitude of mine, and while it probably makes me an asshole, I'm not goingto apologize for it. Something specific happened today at my church - where I am the president - and I was and still am livid. Not to get too specific, our pledge campaign is coming up and for that I write a letter that gets mailed along with specific information from the pledge committee a letter from the minister, and a pledge form.

Today I got the letter. In it was my letter, nothing from either the pledge committee nor the minister, and a pledge form that includes a section for people to contribute to a fund which doesn't exist.

So I sent out a "WTF is going on here" email to a bunch of people who were directly or indirectly in charge of the pledge campaign. I want to know who authorized the mailing, why all of he components weren't there, who changed the form to include the non-existen fund, and so on.

Some of the people wrote back and told me to calm down, that email wasn't a proper medium to discuss this, that everyone is trying and we need to instead focus on how to mitigate the current situation and prevent it from happening again.

To which I want to reply "Fuck you". I'm angry that this got botched up so badly and I'm tired of having to make excuses and shoulder the blame for when things like this get screwed up so often. I'm not concerned so much about mitigating the disaster as I am about holding people accountable an making sure it doens't happen again. I have every right to be pissed off - I care very deeply what happens - if you're so offended by someone showing emotion, either don't fuck up so much or go volunteer someplace else. People who are really good at correcting mistakes are people who make alot of them. I want to be known for running a group of people that get things right, not having to make them right after they fail.

Yeah, I'm going to get pissed off when things that should have gone right get fucked up because off carelessness. I'm pissed and embarrassed and if these people aren't either, I don't want to work for them.

And what year is this? It's 2010, assholes, e-mail is the way things work. If you don't like it, tough shit.

{/rant}

[Lathum]

I had no idea churches had presidents.

[Mustang]

I wouldn't get upset about it.

[Noop]

Well. How was dinner?

[thesloppy]

I think if you screw something up as badly as it sounds like they did, someone should be A-OK with taking the responsibility.

....that said, you gotta admit there is certainly some irony to "fuck everybody at my church, and if you don't like it go volunteer somewhere else."

[Subby]

Pretty sure that you are going to be out on your ass after the mid-term elections.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Dude, don't blow a gasket.

(is that better?)

[Schmidty]

Sounds like you're totally overreacting, and are well on your way to having coronary problems at an early age.

Don't have a cow, man!!

[MacroGuru]

Dude...get upset...find out the feller who did it...tie his truck up to a tow truck...stick a stinky diaper in his air filter...tow the truck somewhere.

Then urinate all over the seat of his truck and then light it on fire!

Using the print out of the emails and letters as the kindling...

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm reminded here of an exchange at work many years ago that went something like this

Employee to supervisor (me): You expect everybody to be perfect.
Supervisor (me) to employee: Not at all. I expect everybody to want to be.

That's a huge distinction that, sadly, I don't think all that many people understand or at least not instinctively. There's very little pride in most work anymore, often even less to be found when unpaid work.

If it's giving you this much upset, my (unsolicited) advice would be to walk away from the role. Failing that, try the ol' Serenity Prayer, because it doesn't sound like you've got the right talents/attitudes among the staff to unfuck things permanently so you're going to need to find a way to deal with it.

[stevew]

I get pissed when people act like everything is small stuff, and of course the lame ass "don't sweat the small stuff" motto. And I'm like, no motherfucker, the small stuff is worth sweating because eventually it'll become big stuff.

[Aylmar]

You really do get what you pay for, don't you?

[Suicane75]

SERENITY NOW!!!

[Sgran]

A few years back we had a situation on the plane similar to Adam Sandler in Anger Management. Basically, wife and i were travelling with our small daughters and asked to get moved to more appropriate seats. I'm pretty sure we were being reasonable yet firm, but the steward acted like we were causing a scene and said "see, you're yelling at me". At that point I could feel my blood begin to boil and had to stop myself from ripping his head off. It's funny how somebody telling you to calm down often makes you more angry than the original cause.

[Toddzilla]

Basically, I'm going to have a pow-wow with the main guy responsible, with whom I've been good friends for years, and tell him I"m going to rant and rave for about 5 minutes to just get all of my anger out, that none of it is personal, and when I'm done we can work on a plan to dig us out of this hole.

And then I'm going to talk to our minister and the head of our program council - the ones who really didn't like me getting angry - and tell them that I'm an emotional, passionate guy. I get very happy when things go right and I get upset when they go really wrong. I take a tremendous amount of pride in my church and being the president means everything that leadership does reflects back on me. The congregation chose me for those reasons, so you get the whole package.

[Toddzilla]

Dude...get upset...find out the feller who did it...tie his truck up to a tow truck...stick a stinky diaper in his air filter...tow the truck somewhere.
Then urinate all over the seat of his truck and then light it on fire!
Using the print out of the emails and letters as the kindling...
+1

I'm reminded here of an exchange at work many years ago that went something like this
Employee to supervisor (me): You expect everybody to be perfect.
Supervisor (me) to employee: Not at all. I expect everybody to want to be.
That's a huge distinction that, sadly, I don't think all that many people understand or at least not instinctively. There's very little pride in most work anymore, often even less to be found when unpaid work.

If it's giving you this much upset, my (unsolicited) advice would be to walk away from the role. Failing that, try the ol' Serenity Prayer, because it doesn't sound like you've got the right talents/attitudes among the staff to unfuck things permanently so you're going to need to find a way to deal with it. +10

I get pissed when people act like everything is small stuff, and of course the lame ass "don't sweat the small stuff" motto. And I'm like, no motherfucker, the small stuff is worth sweating because eventually it'll become big stuff.+1,000,000

[Ksyrup]

SERENITY NOW!!!

I can't wait for the Airing of Grievances at Toddzilla's church!

[EagleFan]

I get pissed when people act like everything is small stuff, and of course the lame ass "don't sweat the small stuff" motto. And I'm like, no motherfucker, the small stuff is worth sweating because eventually it'll become big stuff.

I get pissed by people who see small stuff and want to act like it's the end of the freaking world (even moreso by people who act this way only about other people's small stuff). Especially when there are more important things (the real big stuff) to be worrying about and addressing.

[GrantDawg]

Basically, I'm going to have a pow-wow with the main guy responsible, with whom I've been good friends for years, and tell him I"m going to rant and rave for about 5 minutes to just get all of my anger out, that none of it is personal, and when I'm done we can work on a plan to dig us out of this hole.

And then I'm going to talk to our minister and the head of our program council - the ones who really didn't like me getting angry - and tell them that I'm an emotional, passionate guy. I get very happy when things go right and I get upset when they go really wrong. I take a tremendous amount of pride in my church and being the president means everything that leadership does reflects back on me. The congregation chose me for those reasons, so you get the whole package.


Good idea. And if the minister doesn't find this worthy of getting a little upset about, then it might be time to for a ministerial search commitee.

[lighthousekeeper]

http://ironic1.com/wwjd.jpg

[JPhillips]

Suspend them from Jesus for two weeks.

[Airhog]

I think its the wrong attitude to have. This is the same culture in place in hospitals, when someone makes a mistake you punish them for it, and tell others not to make the same mistake, rather than figuring out how to prevent the mistake from occurring.

People are human, mistakes will be make, we have to learn how to reduce the potential mistakes.

[molson]

The first time I read this it sounded like some kind of attempted church fraud. But it was just a typo? Be careful here. Even if you're getting all hot and bothered about people's reactions to you, everyone will see it as you getting all freaked out about a typo.

Edit: My father retired as a pastor early because of this kind of stuff. People seemingly freaking out over administrative issues.

[CraigSca]

What denomination church is this?

I'm going to second what thesloppy said.

[Matthean]

I get pissed by people who see small stuff and want to act like it's the end of the freaking world (even moreso by people who act this way only about other people's small stuff). Especially when there are more important things (the real big stuff) to be worrying about and addressing.

I think its the wrong attitude to have. This is the same culture in place in hospitals, when someone makes a mistake you punish them for it, and tell others not to make the same mistake, rather than figuring out how to prevent the mistake from occurring.

People are human, mistakes will be make, we have to learn how to reduce the potential mistakes.

+infinity. I work with people who are like this and they drive me up a freaking wall. Being passionate is one thing. Using profanity in a church letter is something different. I honestly don't see how you should keep the position you are in. Did somebody screw up? Yes, maybe even multiple people, but it's completely uncalled for to lash out at co-workers like that. You have zero Biblical support to justify how you handled this. If I'm the pastor, I find out what went wrong, fix it the best I can, and have you admit your own mishandling in this with sending a response to all you e-mailed. If you don't, you no longer are president.

[Subby]

I don't know if you made this thread so you could vent or you wanted honest feedback, but knowing you from your posts I would say you are an intelligent guy and probably wanted the latter.

Excoriating others via email shows extremely poor leadership. A leader fixes the problem first, then investigates what went wrong. My guess is that your personality is probably more suited to support roles/back office stuff and that you probably don't have the personality to lead people.

[lordscarlet]

I think its the wrong attitude to have. This is the same culture in place in hospitals, when someone makes a mistake you punish them for it, and tell others not to make the same mistake, rather than figuring out how to prevent the mistake from occurring.

People are human, mistakes will be make, we have to learn how to reduce the potential mistakes.

Clearly you haven't been in an environment where all that happens is "fixing." At some point people need to be held accountable. We have huge issues in my job because people just try to fix things after they go wrong instead of not doing it wrong in the first place or holding people accountable for doing it wrong.

[JonInMiddleGA]

and that you probably don't have the personality to lead people.

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.

[Passacaglia]

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.

"it's society's fault"

[Subby]

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.
Sure, but I would argue that it is a lot easier to pull off that type of leadership. Performance during a crisis is what defines good leadership and it sounds like that is where T-zilla came up short.

[JediKooter]

I think in any organization, there has to be accountability. Otherwise, something like this will happen again in the future.

[heybrad]

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.
Give me good people to lead and I'm a good leader?

[Neon_Chaos]

Captain Picard was a great leader. Not like that jerk, Kirk.

[Sun Tzu]

Make it so.

[Autumn]

I think to address what you meant to be your point, Toddzilla, I agree that some people can't deal with intense emotions, whether in other people or themselves. A lot of people are raised to think raising your voice, getting visibly upset, etc., are not okay. It's legitimate to express things in that way, but you have to know some people aren't going to know how to deal with it.

That said, clearly there are still ways to be over the top. Groups that are going to work together have to deal with this sort of stuff, and it's just a constant balance. It's definitely possible to be too aggressive, too belligerent, to offend or frighten people. You and they need to come to a shared place where they can recognize that you need to be able to express yourself, and that you can recognize that they need to feel safe and not harassed.

What you plan to do with your friend sounds like a great solution if he's okay with it. Groups really need to deal with things like conflict and communication styles, but usually don't. Really I don't think any of it has to do with the actual mistake made - there's always going to be things to upset you (anyone).

[molson]

Give me good people to lead and I'm a good leader?

More like give me people who don't need a leader and I'm a good leader.

[Daimyo]

And what year is this? It's 2010, assholes, e-mail is the way things work. If you don't like it, tough shit.

Email is completely inappropriate for this type of communication.

[Abe Sargent]

I'm reminded here of an exchange at work many years ago that went something like this

Employee to supervisor (me): You expect everybody to be perfect.
Supervisor (me) to employee: Not at all. I expect everybody to want to be.

That's a huge distinction that, sadly, I don't think all that many people understand or at least not instinctively. There's very little pride in most work anymore, often even less to be found when unpaid work.

If it's giving you this much upset, my (unsolicited) advice would be to walk away from the role. Failing that, try the ol' Serenity Prayer, because it doesn't sound like you've got the right talents/attitudes among the staff to unfuck things permanently so you're going to need to find a way to deal with it.


I think that's a really strong point

[CraigSca]

I guess I just found the juxtaposition of "church leader" and f-bombs being bandied about a bit over the top. While none of us is infallible, you might want to make sure the message and teachings of your the church are indeed being received.

[RendeR]

Captain Picard was a great leader. Not like that jerk, Kirk.


BLASPHEMY! Burn the HERETIC!




Seriously though, I'm with Jon on this one. Everything the church leadership does reflects directly on the guy, if they fuck up it makes him look like an idiot.

My question is though: Did you require them to get your OK on whatever got sent out before teh mailing? Have these same people done this same job before?

If you asked for verification and they ignored you, scream away. If not, thats a mistake on your end. If they're new to this then you have to be a bit more lenient.

I'm still curious about this "non existant fund". Whats up with that?

[RendeR]

I guess I just found the juxtaposition of "church leader" and f-bombs being bandied about a bit over the top. While none of us is infallible, you might want to make sure the message and teachings of your the church are indeed being received.


There are times to preach and there are times to yell, if this is as big a screw up as it seems, then its a time to yell, preaching can come later.

Its easier to beg forgiveness than permission.

[Schmidty]

Email is completely inappropriate for this type of communication.

+1

[RendeR]

Email is completely inappropriate for this type of communication.


Umm, no, its not. Its faster and more traceable than anything else. You email the initial problem, let people know you want to speak to them either by phone or in person to settle the problem and ask them to respond asap. It allows for accountability and helps eliminate duplicity in the workplace.

it doesn't matter if its a paying job or a volunteer one. People must be responsible for what they do.

Email isn't some high school com-link for preppy kids. Its the single most widely used medium for communication in the world. Anyone in a leadership position should be required to use it.

[Schmidty]

Umm, no, its not. Its faster and more traceable than anything else.

Umm, yes it is. It's impersonal and lazy as hell. It's lame and does NOT show good leadership skills. It shows that you don't want to take the time and effort to talk to people face-to-face, and it's also kind of a weasley way of not having to face the problem head-on. The only way an email is appropriate in this situation, is to call together a meeting about the issue, and then discuss it in a way that all concerns can be aired out, and everyone is allowed to give their opinion/reaction to the situation.

Email in an important, potentially emergency situation like this is simply a cop-out.

[RendeR]

Did you not actually read anything past that sentence in my post?

A) its not an emergency, its just a major fuckup
B) I stated exactly what you did for when and why it should be used.
C) You cover ALL your bases when dealing with large scale problems, if for no other reason than to cover your ass when everyone looks for teh scapegoat. "yes, I did in fact contact them, here is the initial email, I received these responses along with phone calls and a face to face after that."

Stop shitting on the guy for doing something right when everyone else in his church seems not to be.

[thesloppy]

Impersonal or not, I would totally use email in a situation like this (well, assuming it was not an angry email to my church), at least as an initial contact. First, because this seems like an issue that stemmed at least partially from people acting individually and without accountability, and some sort of immediate group forum is obviously necessary, and secondarily because if they're all volunteers they may not have the ability to meet in the same place and time, in a timely manner. Lastly, email is focused and to the point, whereas a meeting of volunteers will eventually devolve into an argument about parking, every time.

[flere-imsaho]

I think the correct point is that attempting to "manage" this initially by email is going to be ineffective and may even be counter-productive and that most effective leaders would already know this.

[RendeR]

I think the real problem is that people are assuming that email was the only option used.

its just the first step.

After that you brown bag the idiots and get the bats out.


;)

[flere-imsaho]

Stop shitting on the guy for doing something right when everyone else in his church seems not to be.

I hate to be negative here, but he's done little to address the root cause of the problem (people consistently not employing common sense and the results of this) and done much to simply reinforce that he's going to fly off the handle a lot.

If the volunteers in question are too incompetent to routinely produce good work, then he's going to have to develop an idiot-proof protocol that guarantees everything is appropriately checked (by him) before going out (since he can't just fire them).

If the volunteers are competent but simply didn't understand the details or have the full picture it's a) a further indictment on his leadership capabilities and b) further reinforcement for his volunteers to limit their interactions with him (which will presumably cause more problems - it may in fact have caused this problem).

Disclaimer: This is just based off of what I've read, which I'm sure isn't a 100% whole picture. I'm sure you're a great person in real life Todd, so please don't take this personally.

[ISiddiqui]

Seems strange for a church leader to act this angry and profanity laden. Jesus taught us to forgive easily (Matthew 18:22). I'm not saying be a pushover, but the way to handle it may have been to find out what the problem was in a more calm way and then deal with who caused the problem.

[flere-imsaho]

The first time I read this it sounded like some kind of attempted church fraud. But it was just a typo? Be careful here. Even if you're getting all hot and bothered about people's reactions to you, everyone will see it as you getting all freaked out about a typo.

The way I read it, the eventual mailing lacked 2 of 4 components (all considered key) and the 3rd of 4 components (the pledge form) was badly incorrect.

Having spent some time in fundraising, this is a pretty major fuckup. If I was in Todd's position I would also be pissed, especially if this was simply the latest in a line of fuckups. As I've intimated, I would have handled it somewhat differently.

[Greyroofoo]

This is a general attitude of mine, and while it probably makes me an asshole, I'm not goingto apologize for it. Something specific happened today at my church - where I am the president - and I was and still am livid. Not to get too specific, our pledge campaign is coming up and for that I write a letter that gets mailed along with specific information from the pledge committee a letter from the minister, and a pledge form.

Today I got the letter. In it was my letter, nothing from either the pledge committee nor the minister, and a pledge form that includes a section for people to contribute to a fund which doesn't exist.

So I sent out a "WTF is going on here" email to a bunch of people who were directly or indirectly in charge of the pledge campaign. I want to know who authorized the mailing, why all of he components weren't there, who changed the form to include the non-existen fund, and so on.

Some of the people wrote back and told me to calm down, that email wasn't a proper medium to discuss this, that everyone is trying and we need to instead focus on how to mitigate the current situation and prevent it from happening again.

To which I want to reply "Fuck you". I'm angry that this got botched up so badly and I'm tired of having to make excuses and shoulder the blame for when things like this get screwed up so often. I'm not concerned so much about mitigating the disaster as I am about holding people accountable an making sure it doens't happen again. I have every right to be pissed off - I care very deeply what happens - if you're so offended by someone showing emotion, either don't fuck up so much or go volunteer someplace else. People who are really good at correcting mistakes are people who make alot of them. I want to be known for running a group of people that get things right, not having to make them right after they fail.

Yeah, I'm going to get pissed off when things that should have gone right get fucked up because off carelessness. I'm pissed and embarrassed and if these people aren't either, I don't want to work for them.

And what year is this? It's 2010, assholes, e-mail is the way things work. If you don't like it, tough shit.

{/rant}

Just some grammar corrections, we all make mistakes.

Toddzilla doesn't seem to be the kind of leader I'd go to if I had a problem.

[Drake]

I think to address what you meant to be your point, Toddzilla, I agree that some people can't deal with intense emotions, whether in other people or themselves. A lot of people are raised to think raising your voice, getting visibly upset, etc., are not okay. It's legitimate to express things in that way, but you have to know some people aren't going to know how to deal with it.

And you've got to be prepared if you're a "fly off the handle because I'm passionate" sort of person that some of the people you deal with are going to be just as willing to fly off the handle back because they feel like you're treating them disrespectfully.

Me: I don't tolerate an authority figure yelling at me. If I fuck up, feel free to tell me so, point out what I did wrong, give me suggestions for improvement, fire me, dock my pay, whatever. You can even tease me for being a moron and never let me live it down.

But if you raise your voice to me because you're passionate about my mistake, I will absolutely eat your fucking lunch. If you (as my boss, my peer-group leader, my whatever in a position of perceived authority) decide to escalate, don't be counting on me to either suck it up or try to de-escalate.

And I'm not particularly passionate about anything. I just don't tolerate shouting.

[CrimsonFox]

Todd to you I say "hoorah". Tell them to fuck off and stop being so fucking incompetent. Raise the roof and get things fixed. TOo much bloody incompentence on this planet. Just get the shit done and do it right. I cannot tell you how much this kind of thing happens EVERYWHERE I see because of people being just plain dumb. And copmlaining about it is...well...awesome. :)

[molson]

I couldn't handle a volunteer position where anyone "flies off the handle" about anything (except mis-appropriation of funds), whether or not I was the target of the flying off the handle. That boggles my mind that that happens. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best work, but if someone makes a mistake - this isn't multi-million dollar litigation or something.

[molson]

]

Having spent some time in fundraising, this is a pretty major fuckup. If I was in Todd's position I would also be pissed, especially if this was simply the latest in a line of fuckups. As I've intimated, I would have handled it somewhat differently.

I guess it depends on the size of the church. If it's not a mega-church, and if their solitations are just going towards existing church members, I don't see the big deal in sending them again and apologizing during Sunday church announcements. Isn't that kind of the Christian (or Jewish) approach anyway - smile and say it's OK and just gently fix the mixup? Maybe playfully make fun of the guy that screwed it up at a future church funtion? I think people lose track of the bigger picture when the get all emotional about administrative stuff.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And I'm not particularly passionate about anything. I just don't tolerate shouting.

Note to self: never hire Drake, it's not going to end well ;)

Sigh. Jokes lose so much when you feel compelled to explain them even a little bit. But I probably have to make it clear that I'm not ripping on Drake, just saying that not every pairing of styles is one that works for everybody.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Color me amazed that anyone in this typically techie bastion criticized the use of email in this situation (or just about any other).

Not interested in a fight, or even a decent-sized argument over the subject, just stating my amazement at that particular criticism which I would have never have expected to see here.

[molson]

Color me amazed that anyone in this typically techie bastion criticized the use of email in this situation (or just about any other).



It doesn't have anything to with the tech aspect. If a mistake is made, and it's unclear what happened, most people's first reaction wouldn't be an angry group email calling out the responsible party (or whatever it was).

[Mustang]

Some people in the thread that can't tolerate mistakes would sure hate working in my department. Most of what I do on a daily basis is cleaning up mistakes. Hell, I'm thankful for the mistakes because without them, I'd be out of a job.

[Lathum]

This is why I am at the bar drinking beer and watching football on Sunday instead of going to church.

[Marc Vaughan]

Color me amazed that anyone in this typically techie bastion criticized the use of email in this situation (or just about any other).
I'm a tech natured person in general and live 4,000 miles away from the chaps I work with - as such I communicate electronically with people a LOT ...

Over time I've learnt that certain things are much better to communicate on the phone or via. MSN rather than risk an email, even with emote icons and suchlike its easy for people to get the wrong end of the stick on a delicate matter with an email (this is especially the case when there's a 6 hour time difference between yourself and your office which gives people the chance to mull over the meaning of an email before you're online ;) ).

[Schmidty]

Stop shitting on the guy for doing something right when everyone else in his church seems not to be.

Look, I'm not trying to be rude to him or anything, and if I sounded that way, I apologize. I know he's a good guy, and probably a better leader than me (most people are because I avoid conflict at all cost). It's just that when someone asks for my opinion, I am usually brutally honest. Maybe I said it more roughly than I intended, I guess.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If a mistake is made, and it's unclear what happened, most people's first reaction wouldn't be an angry group email calling out the responsible party (or whatever it was).

Whereas in my experience that's a pretty common reaction. It used to be angry memos, now it's angry emails.

And that's coming from a guy who virtually never uses email for chewing anyone's ass (largely because I'm significantly better at it on the phone or in person).

[thesloppy]

I gotta admit I'm kinda stumped by the reaction to email as well...for whatever it's worth, consider me the kinda person that would be particularly pissed to get dragged into what I consider an unnecessary meeting that doesn't have anything to do with me (I'm making the assumption that I'm too awesome to be the one to screw up).

While I don't get the negative response to an email, I do certainly understand the importance of not sending an ANGRY email, but it's a distinction I was just assuming that everybody else was making as well. Would it really have been bad form to send out an email saying here was the expected result, here was the actual result, we need to be more focused on the details as a group, and here's a proposed solution? It's the anger, not the email causing the impropriety, right? If not, I'm still lost..

...and I'll just reiterate that I've dealt with plenty of management folk, who thought a long drawn-out all hands meeting was a catch-all solution, but neither me nor my co-workers ever would've titled those dudes 'good leaders'....but admittedly I'm an anti-social software engineer, and we're not typically tagged as the best of the worker bees either.

[Toddzilla]

To be clear, it is not incompetence that made me upset, it's poor judgement and lazy execution. "Hey, I'll just add a bit here about a potentially illegal fund on the bottom of the pledge form" is lousy judgement - not getting it peer reviewed is lazy.

Not having a concrete plan on how to run this pledge campaign isn't a resuly of being incapable, it's a result of not caring enough to do the work.

I liken this to a ballplayer not running out a grounder. Hustle, bust your ass, show some effort, and respect the game.

[Marc Vaughan]

Give me good people to lead and I'm a good leader?

I don't think thats the case at all - being manager is like being the coach/manager of a sports team, some personalities gel and work well together - some don't.

Is Alex Ferguson a poor manager at Man Utd because he looks for a personality of player who he thinks will fit into his side rather than babysit people?

Now some people are managers in situations where they can't 'hire and fire' people (such as volunteers at church), in those circumstances its down to man-management skills which might mean some people struggle more than others but that DOESNT make always them bad managers imho, just means that they aren't being given the circumstances in which they could manage effectively.

PS - I dont' see a sternly worded email as inappropriate, even if it included an f-bomb myself (so long as it was constructive in nature overall and not just a rant) - I'm almost certain all the people it went to were adults and had heard that language before, to be honest in the circumstances described I'd have felt rather frustrated myself and so can feel for Toddzilla somewhat ...

[Sun Tzu]

This thread needs more http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/64x64crop/jean-luc-picard-1174.jpg?1173012931, and less http://www.babybirthbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/baby-crying-64x64.jpg.

[Drake]

Note to self: never hire Drake, it's not going to end well ;)

Sigh. Jokes lose so much when you feel compelled to explain them even a little bit. But I probably have to make it clear that I'm not ripping on Drake, just saying that not every pairing of styles is one that works for everybody.

I got the joke. :)

For what it's worth, I'm like the king of snarky, ball-busting e-mails in my office (and I don't supervise anybody). They actually had to take away my access to send mail from some accounts because professors would send in really shitty e-mails about things that "don't work and why can't you guys get this shit fixed" and I took entirely too much glee in pointing out that the only dumbass in the situation was the prof who didn't bother to read the instructions.

(One of the really fascinating things I've learned about universities is that many, many professors are incredibly brilliant in their extremely narrow areas of focus, but unless they're computer science or informatics professors, you shouldn't let them anywhere near a computer, because they will invariably fuck shit up. They're like trying to talk your mom through building formulas in Excel...except no matter what you tell them, they think they're smarter than you are and know a better way to do it.)

[cuervo72]

To be clear, it is not incompetence that made me upset, it's poor judgement and lazy execution. "Hey, I'll just add a bit here about a potentially illegal fund on the bottom of the pledge form" is lousy judgement - not getting it peer reviewed is lazy.

This thread needs more http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/64x64crop/jean-luc-picard-1174.jpg?1173012931, and less http://www.babybirthbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/baby-crying-64x64.jpg.

Sounds like what we have is http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/64x64crop/george-costanza-5326.jpg?1173010296

[thesloppy]

Lookit George....just giving it to T-Bone.

[Desnudo]

Why did you find this out after the fact? If it was important, I would have reviewed for final approval before sending. Or are you not involved in the day-to-day and reviews?

Especially if you have concerns over competence. Keeping in mind that the performance standards for a non-profit should be lower.

[Toddzilla]

Why did you find this out after the fact? If it was important, I would have reviewed for final approval before sending. Or are you not involved in the day-to-day and reviews?

Especially if you have concerns over competence. Keeping in mind that the performance standards for a non-profit should be lower.Bingo...the form was sent to the office admin w/o any peer review or approval. And the admin can't be held culpable. If she was sent a few pages of neo-nazi propaganda to be included, it would have gone out without a question.

[Matthean]

And the admin can't be held culpable. If she was sent a few pages of neo-nazi propaganda to be included, it would have gone out without a question.

And why is that?

[Toddzilla]

She's incompetent. She's also elderly, so firing her to bring in someone whose brain functions properly scares the shit out of our lawyer.

[stevew]

The church I went to used to have to deal with that. It was 1995, the secretary was still typing bulletins on a typewriter, that kind of stuff. They couldn't offload her cause she was related to several donors in the church.

[JediKooter]

Take her stapler and move her desk to the basement.

[Daimyo]

Pretty simple rule for me: If I feel the message would be uncomfortable to deliver in person or make the listener feel uncomfortable or defensive in person, then email should absolutely NOT be used to deliver the message. Its exactly those types of communications that need to be done face-to-face (or at least via phone if proximity is a problem).

[flere-imsaho]

I guess it depends on the size of the church.

Sure, but 75% of the intended mailing was incorrect or missing, with 25% being potentially fraudulent. On balance, it would have been significantly better to have had nothing go out. That's a pretty big fuckup no matter what the situation.

Whereas in my experience that's a pretty common reaction. It used to be angry memos, now it's angry emails.

It's a common reaction because most people in management aren't all that good at it (being good leaders).

I gotta admit I'm kinda stumped by the reaction to email as well...for whatever it's worth, consider me the kinda person that would be particularly pissed to get dragged into what I consider an unnecessary meeting that doesn't have anything to do with me (I'm making the assumption that I'm too awesome to be the one to screw up).

For the record, I wouldn't call a meeting. I would be on the phone or in person immediately with the people responsible to ask them to explain themselves.

[Toddzilla]

Approval 7th? Ha Ha, your people think you suck.

[jeff061]

Color me amazed that anyone in this typically techie bastion criticized the use of email in this situation (or just about any other).

In an emotionally charged situation I only use email for paper trail purposes. It does not work to actually fix a situation, it just becomes an email circle jerk of blame. Email or no email, I always follow up with verbal contact.

[Passacaglia]

Approval 7th? Ha Ha, your people think you suck.

Wrong thread, jackass.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This is why I sit at home all Sunday morning rather than go to church. Just way too much drama. I can sit down and spend time with my daughters and calmly contemplate the blessings in my life. I get more out of that than I ever would at church. This isn't a knock against those who want to engage in organized religion, but it just doesn't work for me anymore.

[Toddzilla]

Wrong thread, jackass.How the F duid that happen? :rant: