PureSim Baseball 4 - Open Beta Starts tomorrow (through April)

[Shaun Sullivan]

Trying a new approach this year, we are opening up the development builds to all folks that pre-order.

Details on PureSim 4 Open Beta here. (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?p=82180#post82180)

Shaun

[sabotai]

Did you un-retire again?

[Shaun Sullivan]

Did you un-retire again?

:popcorn:

[sabotai]

I think I need to keep going - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11170)

Found it!

[sovereignstar v2]

Can I do the beta if I buy a pair of Wrangler Jeans?

[Shaun Sullivan]

Can I do the beta if I buy a pair of Wrangler Jeans?

Would you believe I just got nine stitches on my chin?

Also, I sent some great text messages.

[lighthousekeeper]

Since I never really played PureSIm (though I think I bought a past version once), can someone describe what PureSim does that OOTP doesn't do, and vice versa?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

This is off topic but Shaun have you ever thought of creating a Football text game?

[Young Drachma]

I'd be happier if it were an iPad app. Just saying

[braggtd]

This is off topic but Shaun have you ever thought of creating a Football text game?

+1 Shaun.

If you made a college football text I would be there ASAP! Another feature that would win my love is if you created multiple modes. Mode 1, the full game as it is with your new bells and whistles. Mode 2, an Inside the Park type of game where you get in the action. I loved Inside the Park baseball. I am guessing the sales were horrible for SIGAMES.

[Izulde]

ITP happened long, long, long before OOTP/SI had their brief merger, BTW. In fact, I think it might have even been back in the .400 Studios days.

[fantom1979]

ITP was released on December 19, 2003.

SI/OOTP merger was announced in May of 2004.

;)

[Shaun Sullivan]

I have started and stopped many times on PureSim football's design. Seems it would have to be everything FOF has and then much more (I am assuming a modern UI on FOF would simply not be enough to get folks interested?) That makes it a huge task.

In my early 40's now, so unless I quit my real job (not happening!), an endeavor of this size remains a bit out of reach. In my late 20's and 30's I could code all night, sleep for 2 hours and go to work, no problem. These days, I am yawning at 11:00 :)

Of course, if you all buy PS4, then I would have a foundation to build a business on, and then Football would go into production ;)

[Icy]

With WS already working in a football game and with your huge baseball experience, i would prefer an ITP sports RPG game mode based on Puresim (where you control your player). It could be sold either as an addon to puresim or standalone game or even as a web game.

I'm dying for a good sports RPG, MLB the show has a good one on "road to the show", EA games have decent ones with Be a Pro in FIFA and NHL and there is also the mode in NBA2k11, but in all them you can see that the RPG and "sports world around you" aspects are really poorly done, as those companies care more about the joystick players.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Shameless plugging continues (sorry)...

Added some nice new Sabermetric reports in the lates beta :)

http://puresimmer.squarespace.com/storage/shots/sab1.png

http://puresimmer.squarespace.com/storage/shots/sab2.png

http://puresimmer.squarespace.com/storage/shots/sab3.png

http://puresimmer.squarespace.com/storage/shots/sab4.png

[Philliesfan980]

Shaun, what would you say your main focus is in Pure Sim 4? Also, are you planning on sticking with it this time? Not to sound rude, or disrespectful in any way, but I think your "on and off" relationship with this product is holding back some buyers.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Shaun, what would you say your main focus is in Pure Sim 4? Also, are you planning on sticking with it this time? Not to sound rude, or disrespectful in any way, but I think your "on and off" relationship with this product is holding back some buyers.

I have always stuck with every release in the game's history, supporting all of them with hundreds of tweaks and features, patches etc.

I have never abandoned a release where people paid for it. I think it is a somewhat unfair characterization. I have always prided myself in fanatical support of each release through updates and listening to the community.

For reference, here is the list (from memory) of officially released and supported editions from 2002-2010 - along with when I announced dramatic retirements :)

PureSim Baseball (Indie)
PureSim 2002 (Indie)
PureSim 2004 (Indie)
- Canceled .400 Studios "Total Pro Baseball" Release in here I think -
- retirement -
PureSim 2005 (Indie)
PureSim 2005 Second Edition (Matrix Games)
PureSim 2007 (Matrix Games)
- retirement -
Announced New Wolverine Baseball game (never released)
- retirement -
PureSim Freeware (Indie)
PureSim Baseball 2 (Wolverine)
PureSim Baseball 3 (Wolverine) Also made FREE to all that bought PureSim 2
- retirement (2 weeks lol) -
PureSim Baseball 4 (Wolverine, currently in development)

I am certainly a victim of being very open with users as none of my hiatuses would have even been noticed if I just kept my mouth shut.

I think 8 years of releases is a pretty good track record, regardless. I have been balancing a demanding, full time job and PureSim on the side since 1998, and have 4 kids etc, so in the past I have had to step away when the stress got too high, or when there was a possibility it was encroaching on performance at my "real" job.

Fair question BTW :)

[Shaun Sullivan]

Didn't answer the "focus" question, sorry.

PS4 is all about polish and tweaking of existing AI, UI, Engine etc. I'd characterize it as a back to basics release with much more focus on making what is there even better and adding the tons of little touches that make a difference.

[DaddyTorgo]

Mmmm - sabremetrics!!!! YAYY!!!!

[Philliesfan980]

I have always stuck with every release in the game's history, supporting all of them with hundreds of tweaks and features, patches etc.

I have never abandoned a release where people paid for it. I think it is a somewhat unfair characterization. I have always prided myself in fanatical support of each release through updates and listening to the community.

For reference, here is the list (from memory) of officially released and supported editions from 2002-2010 - along with when I announced dramatic retirements :)

PureSim Baseball (Indie)
PureSim 2002 (Indie)
PureSim 2004 (Indie)
- Canceled .400 Studios "Total Pro Baseball" Release in here I think -
- retirement -
PureSim 2005 (Indie)
PureSim 2005 Second Edition (Matrix Games)
PureSim 2007 (Matrix Games)
- retirement -
Announced New Wolverine Baseball game (never released)
- retirement -
PureSim Freeware (Indie)
PureSim Baseball 2 (Wolverine)
PureSim Baseball 3 (Wolverine) Also made FREE to all that bought PureSim 2
- retirement (2 weeks lol) -
PureSim Baseball 4 (Wolverine, currently in development)

I am certainly a victim of being very open with users as none of my hiatuses would have even been noticed if I just kept my mouth shut.

I think 8 years of releases is a pretty good track record, regardless. I have been balancing a demanding, full time job and PureSim on the side since 1998, and have 4 kids etc, so in the past I have had to step away when the stress got too high, or when there was a possibility it was encroaching on performance at my "real" job.

Fair question BTW :)

Thanks for the well thought out response Shaun. In looking back at my original question, I probably should have worded it differently. I can only imagine the general problems of being an Indy developer who has a full time job as well. For the record, I've purchased at least two of the PureSim products (your most recent product, and another one of your past versions, I forget which one it was), so I'm a fan of your work. I wish you had more commercial success, because I think if you could work on this sort of stuff full time, you might be able to put out the best products in the text-sim world.

As for what I really want, I want a "one-pitch" High Heat mode style game. A game that I can get through in about 20 minutes, and see some action on the field. Add Lehman database support so we can create our own teams, a way to create stadiums, and I'd be a happy camper. Heck, I would even be ok with not having career mode in the first version. Have you ever looked into this?

[RomaGoth]

...Heck, I would even be ok with not having career mode in the first version. Have you ever looked into this?

What?? No career mode??

:eek::jawdrop:

[Philliesfan980]

What?? No career mode??

:eek::jawdrop:

Yeah, I guess I'm so starved for a graphical manage only mode (1 pitch is the key) that I'd sacrifice career play while the underlying game engine was being worked on.

Who knows, maybe The Show will put one pitch mode in this year. They already have manage only mode in the game, but it just takes way too long to get through a game (about an hour and a half).

[DanGarion]

Multiplayer leagues.

[lighthousekeeper]

Since I never really played PureSIm (though I think I bought a past version once), can someone describe what PureSim does that OOTP doesn't do, and vice versa?

since i already own ootp, is there any incentive to purchase PureSim?

[Tim Tellean]

Why not grab the PS3 demo and see for yourself.

[DanGarion]

Why not grab the PS3 demo and see for yourself.

It's on PS3??!?!?!?

:D

[lighthousekeeper]

Why not grab the PS3 demo and see for yourself.

too lazy and/or busy.

[Shaun Sullivan]

too lazy and/or busy.

Probably my cue to leave. Not sure why I post here anymore, desperation maybe :) Have a good one, I am gone.

[DaddyTorgo]

Probably my cue to leave. Not sure why I post here anymore, desperation maybe :) Have a good one, I am gone.

wait...what?

[Comey]

wait...what?

1) Either Shaun misunderstood and thought he was being called lazy...

2) He saw the posts and, based on lighthousekeeper stating he's too lazy to download PureSim 3 and check it out, but wants to be sold on the game rather than actually check it out, he feels that trying to pitch the game here is pointless.

Really, between this and Gary's issues when DDSPB2 came out, I can't say I blame him too much. The lack of common respect from even just a few people here, towards those trying to keep the text sim community alive is amazing.

[DaddyTorgo]

Seriously

[lighthousekeeper]

yikes. i was just stating that i'm lazy.

what i was really trying to do on 2 occasions was to prompt shaun to describe why i and other ootp customers should be interested in puresim. if i was in his position i would try to make it very clear why puresim is superior to ootp (lord knows there's so many possibilities) and drive those selling points home. as a baseball junkie i'm certainly open to jumping ship from ootp to another franchise.

[cubboyroy1826]

Heck no need to jump ship why not own both?

[Young Drachma]

Conversely, the past consensus is that PureSim from the perspective of the hard core OOTPer is a more incisive sim that's good at the details of baseball and isn't as focused on the customization that OOTP offers. So while OOTP continues to frustrate people who want a baseball sim that's atuned to nuances of baseball, PureSim will annoy someone who is used to expanding their league, customizing to the high heavens and creating near-galactic permutations of baseball simulating that you can pretty much come up with and every version I've used simmed slower than OOTP, too.

The problem is, you have Baseball Mogul that still has leagues and a following built around it, which offers the cracker jack version of baseball simming for people without the energy to immerse themselves in the graduate level complexity that OOTP offers and then you have what amounts to a third-way solution in PureSim, which pretty much everyone agrees is a solid simulation, but save for the purists who use it (heh), other people haven't been convinced it's truly a gamechanger that would make you want to switch.

I personally think mobile is the way to go. It's an open space, there are legions of customers who'd go with you there and then you have an entire market from which to build, rather than pursuing the same strategy in the hopes of picking off a few flies. Especially with an engine that's already built and so forth.

Or the oft-mentioned online text sim idea. I think in an era where people can stay constantly connected, the future of the text-sim relies on a less bulky model that lets people interface with their team in a flexible, portable way because it'd increase immersion that you can't right now from always having to run a desktop app.

Sure those are more expensive and thus, you get better margins and so forth. But, it's a shortsighted way of looking at it where essentially by lowering the barriers to entry in terms of cost, you get more people willing to dabble with the product and a higher possibility of attracting lasting converts if you reach the space first.

I realize a lot of this is speculative and based on a 50,000 ft. view of things, but...it's just how I see it.

If I had the resources, I'd just do it myself...but that hasn't been feasible yet and I'm not sure it will be by the time it matters/while I have a passion for it. But that's usually how it goes with things like this.

[jbergey22]

Good post Dark Cloud.

Im hoping for the best for Shaun this time around. I know the PS3 sales werent all he had hoped for. Im hoping with a release more around opening day he will do much better.

[RomaGoth]

Probably my cue to leave. Not sure why I post here anymore, desperation maybe :) Have a good one, I am gone.

huh? :confused:

[spleen1015]

This might shed some light on Shaun's reaction...

Looks like the retirement sagas have "sullyed" my reputation - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11598)

I think he has misinterpreted a couple of comments and now he feels insulted or not appreciated.

[MizzouRah]

To me, Puresim is between Mogul and OOTP - which isn't a bad thing whatsoever.

I don't think I'm going to be a part of the PS4 beta because I haven't really played PS3 all that much due to OOTP.. but I'll still support Shaun and hope he continues to refine his game and make the AI as tough as it can be.

Puresim should appeal to those who find ootp too much and want to play more of a ootp 6.5 version.

From what I can read, historical simmers also like Puresim quite a bit.

[RomaGoth]

This might shed some light on Shaun's reaction...

Looks like the retirement sagas have "sullyed" my reputation - Wolverine Studios (http://www.wolverinestudios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11598)

I think he has misinterpreted a couple of comments and now he feels insulted or not appreciated.

A lot of fair responses in that thread, not sure why Shaun would get upset at what I see as a fair question by Philliesfan980.

[Young Drachma]

Didn't see anything in that thread or this one that was particularly rude. But to each their own, I guess.

[Passacaglia]

Not only that, if his complaint was with Phillies's question (as he seems to indicate), why'd he respond for a while, wait two days, then quote someone else's post on his way out? How bizarre.

[Alan T]

It seems to me that mostly he is coming across as if he passionately wants his creation to become a hit really badly and lukewarm reception is crushing his spirit a bit right now.

My guess is that it isn't personal, he's just suffering from some form of disappointment perhaps. Say something similar to how someone might feel about a huge purchase (say car or house) a few weeks after the purchase is made and the initial high wears off.

He just needs to take a step back and realize that while he isn't Sony, he still does have at least a small number of passionate fans that love his work and do appreciate him. To me this whole exchange just seems to indicate that he is human.

(I've never bought or played Puresim before other than trying a few demos several years ago, but I do usually follow these threads and wish him the best in his development)

[RomaGoth]

It seems to me that mostly he is coming across as if he passionately wants his creation to become a hit really badly and lukewarm reception is crushing his spirit a bit right now.

My guess is that it isn't personal, he's just suffering from some form of disappointment perhaps. Say something similar to how someone might feel about a huge purchase (say car or house) a few weeks after the purchase is made and the initial high wears off.

He just needs to take a step back and realize that while he isn't Sony, he still does have at least a small number of passionate fans that love his work and do appreciate him. To me this whole exchange just seems to indicate that he is human.

(I've never bought or played Puresim before other than trying a few demos several years ago, but I do usually follow these threads and wish him the best in his development)

What I find intriguing is that he admitted that Puresim is not his full time job, but he seems to expect a reaction as if it is the most remarkable product ever created. I mean no disrespect to Shaun, but you can't have it both ways. If you do something like game development, you should expect to get mixed reactions most of the time, and the expectations are going to be higher everytime you create a good product. The little bit that I have dabbled with the Puresim series left me impressed, but baseball text sims are in a niche market, and there is competition for him with OOTP and Baseball Mogul.

Hopefully he will come around again and keep us updated with the progress of PS4, I think it looks really good so far.

[Passacaglia]

It's on PS3??!?!?!?

:D

I just now realized that this is a joke, and it's not really on PS3.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Probably my cue to leave. Not sure why I post here anymore, desperation maybe :) Have a good one, I am gone.
I'm sure he'll come back when training camp ends.

[MizzouRah]

It seems to me that mostly he is coming across as if he passionately wants his creation to become a hit really badly and lukewarm reception is crushing his spirit a bit right now.

My guess is that it isn't personal, he's just suffering from some form of disappointment perhaps. Say something similar to how someone might feel about a huge purchase (say car or house) a few weeks after the purchase is made and the initial high wears off.

He just needs to take a step back and realize that while he isn't Sony, he still does have at least a small number of passionate fans that love his work and do appreciate him. To me this whole exchange just seems to indicate that he is human.

(I've never bought or played Puresim before other than trying a few demos several years ago, but I do usually follow these threads and wish him the best in his development)

I would agree with this.. Shaun is very passionate about Puresim and I also think when the reception is not there, it bums him out.. like it would anyone. Heck, even Gary was a bit bummed at little reception DDSPB received at first.

Shaun has a tough market for his game with ootp and mogul out there to choose from as well.

That's why I figured a football game or hockey game would do well as far as a text sim goes since honestly.. there is not that much competition right now for either.

I'm anxious to see what he dreams up for PS4 though and will continue to follow his progress!

[Philliesfan980]

Just seeing this for the first time now.

I thought I bent over backwards to clearly indicate what others were probably thinking (and I'm glad that others in the thread on the WS forums backed my suspicions up), and to indicate that I'm a paying customer of a few of his products. The fact that he went out of his way to post a link to my comments in another forum, without even giving me a courtesy "Heads-up" via PM, is absolutely absurd. He was probably doing so to get some "hey, that guy is an idiot, don't listen to him" type messages, but then it completely backfired when people actually agreed with me, and then he took his ball and went home. It just is another example of his over-emotional, irrational behavior that he's been showing over the last few years.

As mentioned, I've tried to be nice to him, but you know what? Fuck him. I can personally guarantee that I'll never buy one of his products again or refer someone else to buy his product.

And if you're reading this Shaun, here's a tip - nobody gives a damn that you have 4 kids, a wife, and another full time job. When you charge for a product, people aren't going to give you a free pass with that excuse. Granted, you've done some freeware work in the past, but the bottom line is you primarily charge for your products.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Just seeing this for the first time now.

I thought I bent over backwards to clearly indicate what others were probably thinking (and I'm glad that others in the thread on the WS forums backed my suspicions up), and to indicate that I'm a paying customer of a few of his products. The fact that he went out of his way to post a link to my comments in another forum, without even giving me a courtesy "Heads-up" via PM, is absolutely absurd. He was probably doing so to get some "hey, that guy is an idiot, don't listen to him" type messages, but then it completely backfired when people actually agreed with me, and then he took his ball and went home. It just is another example of his over-emotional, irrational behavior that he's been showing over the last few years.

As mentioned, I've tried to be nice to him, but you know what? Fuck him. I can personally guarantee that I'll never buy one of his products again or refer someone else to buy his product.

And if you're reading this Shaun, here's a tip - nobody gives a damn that you have 4 kids, a wife, and another full time job. When you charge for a product, people aren't going to give you a free pass with that excuse. Granted, you've done some freeware work in the past, but the bottom line is you primarily charge for your products.

I have to come back to answer you in particular. I was not upset with you at all! Look at the content of the post you are talking about. My actual post was (emphasis mine):

"Fair question by "Philliesfan980" on the FOFC board (read down in thread). Hurt my feelings, but I sure understand where he is coming from!

I certainly don't see that as an attack on you! Your post was actually insightful. Me an a long time puresim player got into it a little but we are all good now :)

No need to swear at me, wow.

[Ksyrup]

Getting back to the game for a minute...

I fired up PS3 last night and simmed through a replay season (1980). Was very happy with the results - KC and Philadelphia ended up in the WS, and the Phillies won in 6 games - but one thing I noticed while looking through the stats was that at the end of the season, when I looked at a team's stats, the only stats shown were for the players on the roster at the time.

So for instance, Steve Carlton happened to be on the DL at the end of the season, so his stats weren't shown as a part of the team despite throwing 266 innings and going 20-9. It would be much better if every player who accumulated a stat was shown on that page, with the stat line totals at the bottom. Does that make sense? So if a team trades a guy mid-season, he would still show up in the stats of his old team so that the cumulative stats add up (if a team wins 90 games, all the pitchers wins totalled up would equal 90). It's hard to get an idea of how a season went if all we're seeing is just the guys on the roster at any given moment (especially if we're looking at it at year-end).

Another question I have - is there any way to increase the size of the screen? As it stands, either way you can run this game, it barely takes up 2/3s of my screen. I would much prefer it fit my laptop screen and just be bigger, if nothing else. It frustrates the hell out of me to have a huge amount of space on either side that is useless.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Just seeing this for the first time now.

I thought I bent over backwards to clearly indicate what others were probably thinking (and I'm glad that others in the thread on the WS forums backed my suspicions up), and to indicate that I'm a paying customer of a few of his products. The fact that he went out of his way to post a link to my comments in another forum, without even giving me a courtesy "Heads-up" via PM, is absolutely absurd. He was probably doing so to get some "hey, that guy is an idiot, don't listen to him" type messages, but then it completely backfired when people actually agreed with me, and then he took his ball and went home. It just is another example of his over-emotional, irrational behavior that he's been showing over the last few years.

As mentioned, I've tried to be nice to him, but you know what? Fuck him. I can personally guarantee that I'll never buy one of his products again or refer someone else to buy his product.

And if you're reading this Shaun, here's a tip - nobody gives a damn that you have 4 kids, a wife, and another full time job. When you charge for a product, people aren't going to give you a free pass with that excuse. Granted, you've done some freeware work in the past, but the bottom line is you primarily charge for your products.

Last post Phillie, I promise :)

I just remembered I answered you directly, and politely in this thread and even said there that you had a fair question, so I am not sure why I got your wrath.

You are right, it doesn't matter that I have a wife and four kids. I only point that out to convey that my hiatuses between games were usually driven by other factors beyond me being over-emotional and mercurial (guilty on both in the past for sure as well.)

Hopefully we can make peace, I don't need a flame war, it might get me so upset that I retire again ;)

[miked]

Wow, the idiocy in this thread is clearly the reason why Shaun shouldn't post here. I'm fairly certain that he didn't come in here expecting everyone to call him God's gift to programming, or that Puresim was the best game ever created. More like he wanted to generate some buzz for an open beta where people can actually take part in shaping the game. What he got was some snarky posts from some lazy readers. I can see that he obviously overreacted to Doug (lighthousekeeper) but the post was a bit much. If you are too lazy to do a few minutes of looking around at the various Puresim sites and info, the game is probably not for you. If you can't even take the 10 minutes to run the demo, then why the fuck bother posting in the thread?

[Philliesfan980]

Last post Phillie, I promise :)

I just remembered I answered you directly, and politely in this thread and even said there that you had a fair question, so I am not sure why I got your wrath.

You are right, it doesn't matter that I have a wife and four kids. I only point that out to convey that my hiatuses between games were usually driven by other factors beyond me being over-emotional and mercurial (guilty on both in the past for sure as well.)

Hopefully we can make peace, I don't need a flame war, it might get me so upset that I retire again ;)

Agreed, let's just let this thing die.

Now if you can make a graphical one-pitch game, ala "high heat", I'd be back on board ;)

[RomaGoth]

Wow, the idiocy in this thread is clearly the reason why Shaun shouldn't post here. I'm fairly certain that he didn't come in here expecting everyone to call him God's gift to programming, or that Puresim was the best game ever created. More like he wanted to generate some buzz for an open beta where people can actually take part in shaping the game. What he got was some snarky posts from some lazy readers. I can see that he obviously overreacted to Doug (lighthousekeeper) but the post was a bit much. If you are too lazy to do a few minutes of looking around at the various Puresim sites and info, the game is probably not for you. If you can't even take the 10 minutes to run the demo, then why the fuck bother posting in the thread?

Um, because it's a message board?

[jbergey22]

Wow, the idiocy in this thread is clearly the reason why Shaun shouldn't post here. I'm fairly certain that he didn't come in here expecting everyone to call him God's gift to programming, or that Puresim was the best game ever created. More like he wanted to generate some buzz for an open beta where people can actually take part in shaping the game. What he got was some snarky posts from some lazy readers. I can see that he obviously overreacted to Doug (lighthousekeeper) but the post was a bit much. If you are too lazy to do a few minutes of looking around at the various Puresim sites and info, the game is probably not for you. If you can't even take the 10 minutes to run the demo, then why the fuck bother posting in the thread?

I think a lot of developers love to post here and get imput for a few different reasons. Two of the major ones are to not get "fanboyish" responses and #2 there is a ton of posters in this forum which cant hurt business. You get a thumbs up from this forum and your business will take a big spike in sales.

Its really nothing to get bent out of shape about. I think a few people have over reacted in this thread.

[lighthousekeeper]

Wow, the idiocy in this thread is clearly the reason why Shaun shouldn't post here. I'm fairly certain that he didn't come in here expecting everyone to call him God's gift to programming, or that Puresim was the best game ever created. More like he wanted to generate some buzz for an open beta where people can actually take part in shaping the game. What he got was some snarky posts from some lazy readers. I can see that he obviously overreacted to Doug (lighthousekeeper) but the post was a bit much. If you are too lazy to do a few minutes of looking around at the various Puresim sites and info, the game is probably not for you. If you can't even take the 10 minutes to run the demo, then why the fuck bother posting in the thread?

writing a 1 minute post and spending 1 minute to read the reponse is still easier than the few hours needed to really investigate a game as complex as a text sim: (1) download and installing the demo (2) playing through a few seasons (3) comparing statistical output to real life conditions (4) tweaking configuration settings based on #3 (5) repeating steps 2-3 . (6) deciding this is a better option than ootp.
(it's still even easier when you add on the additional flame-post reading and writing.) text sims are more than just simple pick-up-and-go games. they are something that developers invest a huge amount of time in and as players we invest an even larger amount of time and our spirits in. before i begin that journey, i want to know that going down that path is even worth the effort.

i'm sorry if other don't feel that way. i'm even more sorry if others get bummed out by that. i don't mean it as disrespect to anyone and it shouldn't be taken that way.

[jbergey22]

writing a 1 minute post and spending 1 minute to read the reponse is still easier than the few hours needed to really investigate a game as complex as a text sim: (1) download and installing the demo (2) playing through a few seasons (3) comparing statistical output to real life conditions (4) tweaking configuration settings based on #3 (5) repeating steps 2-3 . (6) deciding this is a better option than ootp.
(it's still even easier when you add on the additional flame-post reading and writing.) text sims are more than just simple pick-up-and-go games. they are something that developers invest a huge amount of time in and as players we invest an even larger amount of time and our spirits in. before i begin that journey, i want to know that going down that path is even worth the effort.

i'm sorry if other don't feel that way. i'm even more sorry if others get bummed out by that. i don't mean it as disrespect to anyone and it shouldn't be taken that way.

I agree with this completely and a big reason I come to this forum is to get input from this community as I know the answers will be honest. No sucking up to programmers in this forum.

And like you mentioned. A 6 month demo in game/3 day trial does not give you enough time so you need other peoples opinions.

I'm not saying Im disappointed in PS3 but I was a big agitated when I purchased it and it took so damn long to sim and when I got to 1955 players started hitting .954 with 316 home runs in a season. The problem is fixed now but these are things you wont see in a demo.

[lighthousekeeper]

dola, I didn't think it was unreasonable for me to have expected things to play out like this:

developer> hey i'm working on a new game called Game A and it's in open beta right now. please take a look

me> oh that game seems similar to the current market leader, Game B. How is your game better?

developer> I'm glad you asked. Game A provides this and this and this which people might favor over Game B. Please just try out the free demo.

[Gary Gorski]

Maybe I can add something here since my name was mentioned a few times...I won't speak for Shaun but I think we come from the same place here. These games take a tremendous amount of effort to produce. That effort is one thing when you wake up and go to work and do it 9-5 and walk home with a paycheck for each hour that you put in. But in both of our cases making these games is not a full time job - well it is except that it doesn't pay anywhere near enough to be one.

So why bother doing it? I don't know - I guess we're crazy but I think deep down guys like Shaun and myself really like the creative outlet of the games and the opportunity to make something that's going to give some enjoyment to you. So when we're all fired up about a project or new game we want to share that enthusiasm - we come to a place like this because we know it is where people who enjoy text sim games hang out and we're hoping for the same level of enthusiasm from you. Ben mentioned once to me about needing to be thicker skinned about what people said on the site but it's not like we don't want honest critiques of the games - we would love them because it means you're playing them :)

What is the toughest to deal with is apathy towards the games. It's like if you were in a band and got a gig at a club and then you went out to perform and there's like five people in the audience and three of them aren't even paying attention to the stage. I guess the reason that bums us out is because we don't have thousands of customers and the "luxury" of ignoring the people. We need every person we can get to try our games and we make every effort possible to connect with those people by doing things like coming here to post or answering PMs or emails.

What some of you guys overlook I think is that the small time developers like Shaun and myself - we feed off that enthusiasm and it drives us. When we see our games getting talked about or reviewed or can even get into the conversations about things that are liked or disliked - that fights the burnout from the extended hours and it fights the disappointment that only a few hundred copies have sold. When it seems like nobody cares about the game or even wants to try and care by trying a demo or whatever - that's when the "why even bother" type questions start coming up.

We're not looking for anyone to put up a statue of us - we're just trying to share a passion with you. For me, I'm happy when someone tries the demo of my game and gives it an honest chance. If you buy it that's icing on the cake because it meant you really, really liked it.

We don't have a beef with anyone here in this thread or otherwise - we're human and there's been many times over the course of our development careers where we've shown our human side and done something that would "not be a good business thing to say or do" because we're just a couple of guys trying to share a passion for sports and gaming. It's natural for us to get disappointed if our enthusiasm isn't met and shared but we move on and keep trying again anyways and are extremely thankful and grateful to all of the people who have supported us with their time and money over the years. Your support has certainly made it worthwhile to make these games and we hope for your continued support and hope to get some new people to try our games and share the experience with us as well.

[RomaGoth]

I am sure I speak for the majority of the people on this board when I say that we like having you guys around. It is awesome that you take the time to share your new ideas with us.

[cubboyroy1826]

Very good points Gary.

I think one of the things that lighthouse hinted at above is "Why Puresim instead of OOTP or Baseball Mogul?" now for me I will buy Puresim and OOTP just because I like to support the developers. I am also not saying that everyone needs to make the either or choice on Puresim, OOTP or Baseball Mogul but once again "Why Puresim?"

What about Puresim is different than the other games. What type of game player would like Puresim? You know the old FAB, features, advantages, benefits. Tell me about a feature of Puresim, what is the advantage of this feature and what is the benefit. I think sometimes the game developer types (sorry but I was not sure how to phrase that) do a great job at making the game and adding features but fall a bit short in the sales process. This is not a knock on you or Shaun, heck I have marvel at how the heck you guys have the patience to persevere through developing a game from the ground up. I love Puresim although I do not have near the time to play the game as I once did. I really enjoyed your College and Pro Basketball game although once again I just do not have the time to play them as much as I would like to.

Way more than I originally intended to post but there is my 2 cents.

[Gary Gorski]

I think sometimes the game developer types (sorry but I was not sure how to phrase that) do a great job at making the game and adding features but fall a bit short in the sales process.

I think this is certainly a fair point and honestly one of the reasons we really rely on the community so much. When we suggest "try the demo" it's not because we don't want to tell you why the game is so great but we know that the best marketers of the games on this forum are you, not us. When a couple of guys really get into a game they talk it up like crazy here and then because a few other FOFCers are into it then a few more will try it. Pretty soon there's a 30 page thread on a game and you're on your way to a hit - on the flip side we can post a list of improvements to a game (as I did with DDSPB2 and past games) and some people will read it and even fewer will comment on it and the thread is off the radar in 48 hours.

I think its fair to say that if FOFC is "selling" the game then more people who visit the forum are likely to get behind it. We're also here for feedback and the open beta process is great for that. Its hard to say what exactly PS4 does in total because the game is going to be a work in process - if there is something you wish it would do differently than OOTP here's a chance to make that happen as opposed to waiting until after a game is released to find out its not something you're into. You have the opportunity to shape it to be the game you want it to be. Who knows where the development of the game will lead in the next couple months - I know Shaun has his own ideas he's working on for now but there is no way he or anyone else could do the depth of a game like that justice in a few sentences or any way to know what the finished product will have...until its finished :)

It's much easier to be able to answer the question of "does PS do X differently/better than OOTP" - Shaun can say yes or no or hey its open beta now and I can make that change so that it will be better/different. Trust us, we're not here for the trout - we're here to make our games appealing to what this community likes and we do that because we care about this community of gamers. If you care about having more gaming options that you like then we want you to try a demo and let us know what you like and don't like and how we can make it into what you like but we can't just make something "better/different" than OOTP if we don't know what it is you think isn't good enough about PS. The same holds true for any of our games - we're asking for your support. If you show your support by trying and purchasing the games we're going to be there to continue to give you great games and be there to try and improve the games in areas you feel could use help. We want to work with this community - that's why we come here.

[cubboyroy1826]

You are correct Gary the forums can be great sales tools. Talk about testimonials.

The demos are a definitely a great way to see first hand how the game works and I typically try the demo out first. I also think someone like Izulde firing up a dynasty (DDPB2) can help to generate additional interest. I think the difference with your games and Puresim is that the competition is much tougher in the baseball game market. OOTP has a pretty solid head start on everyone else. The issue I have with OOTP is that with my limited amount of time I have it takes a lot more work to sit down and fire the game up and get started. With DDPB2 there really is not a whole lot of competition for you so you really do not have to differentiate what is different with your game or why game players should choose DDPB2.

[DanGarion]

I just now realized that this is a joke, and it's not really on PS3.

;)

[DanGarion]

Hopefully we can make peace, I don't need a flame war, it might get me so upset that I retire again ;)

Just don't stop posting here Shaun.

[DanGarion]

dola, I didn't think it was unreasonable for me to have expected things to play out like this:

developer> hey i'm working on a new game called Game A and it's in open beta right now. please take a look

me> oh that game seems similar to the current market leader, Game B. How is your game better?

developer> I'm glad you asked. Game A provides this and this and this which people might favor over Game B. Please just try out the free demo.

Agreed I feel just saying "CHECK OUT THE DEMO" is a cop out. Some of us don't want to check out the demo we want the developer to explain the benefits and features to us without us having to go searching for them. I've bought just about every one of Shaun's games, but honestly I've probably put less than a total of 10 hours TOTAL into all of them together. Marketing your game isn't tell us to check out the demo...

[Passacaglia]

Agreed I feel just saying "CHECK OUT THE DEMO" is a cop out. Some of us don't want to check out the demo we want the developer to explain the benefits and features to us without us having to go searching for them. I've bought just about every one of Shaun's games, but honestly I've probably put less than a total of 10 hours TOTAL into all of them together. Marketing your game isn't tell us to check out the demo...

Yep. You're dealing with people who are actually gullible enough to believe it might be on PS3. I'm interested in buying a baseball game, and have the same deal as dan but with ootp -- bought a couple versions, probably played no more than 5 hours. If you're not willing to answer a simple "what's different about your game" in a handy fashion, you might as well just be saying "this is a game, buy it"

[Philliesfan980]

For me, and I might be in the minority about this, is I'm just having trouble getting into text sims these days. I think consoles have made great strides recently on improving the realism on the graphical games, that the career modes in these games is not really that far of a gap as it once was.

I know I've said it a few times in this thread already, and if nobody feels this way, it's fine, but I'm looking for some more graphics with these games. More than a ballflight animation, but less than MLB the Show. I stare at spreadsheets and crunch numbers all day at work, and I do love the statistical aspect of sports, but I'm getting to the point where I need a little more to get me immersed. I want to SEE the guy go for the dunk, or block the shot. It can be a simple pre-loaded animation which only has 5-6 variations, but I need something more to make me want to fire it up after a long day in the office.

[cubboyroy1826]

I understand what Philliesfan is saying will agree an added level of immersion is almost a must for many these days. As games progress the consumer wants more. For example Gary's new game has added more depth in the player personalities which helps you feel like your players are more than a bunch of numbers.

As for the graphics I am not sure how much more we are going to get from the small independent developers.

[Philliesfan980]

I understand what Philliesfan is saying will agree an added level of immersion is almost a must for many these days. As games progress the consumer wants more. For example Gary's new game has added more depth in the player personalities which helps you feel like your players are more than a bunch of numbers.

As for the graphics I am not sure how much more we are going to get from the small independent developers.

Yeah, to be honest, I really have no idea with today's programming languages it would be to create a "high heat" like game. I think the key with that kind of game is let the game be very moddable from a community perspective. Allow the Lehman database to be used, uniform editors, stadium editors, etc.

[cubboyroy1826]

Yeah having the addons like unis stadiums etc modable is definitely a good idea and I think that there are a lot of graphics item like logos and stadiums that have mod support already. I think Padres Fan's site has logos, pics and stadiums already.

Philly have you tried out Gary's basketball games out and does the players numbers moving around the court work for you?

[Philliesfan980]

Yeah, while the stuff in Gary's game is nice, I still would like to see some 3D stuff.

[Gary Gorski]

I would love to do 3D game display but there's a reason it takes an entire studio full of people to create those games. I wouldn't even know where to start and can only imagine the massive workload that would be involved in making it happen.

[cubboyroy1826]

Come on Gary how about video of you dunking the ball? ...lol

[lighthousekeeper]

I would love to do 3D game display but there's a reason it takes an entire studio full of people to create those games. I wouldn't even know where to start and can only imagine the massive workload that would be involved in making it happen.

I wish the people who do 3d for the FM series could produce a low-cost API for indy text sim developers. If they could provide an engine w/APIs for around $500-$1000, I would jump on it. But that is probably absurdly low.

[Young Drachma]

Interesting conversations. I think there might be some merit to the idea of "pay to play" access to a developer's time and so forth. I never really thought about it like that, because most open betas have been about a game you're going to get anyway and then having someone make it and maybe you make improvements over whatever you're going to do.

But maybe that was the wrong way to look at it. In that sense, it's an interesting idea to believe you'd be able to influence the direction of things with your purchase.

[Tim Tellean]

Okay as the guy who made the suggestion to try the demo. I said it for a few reasons. First I've always believed that you should test drive before you buy, I understand people want short cuts and have time constraints or whatever but I think with software and especially Pure Sim 3(Thats PS3 :)) it has a bunch of options that Shaun can list and explain but until you really try it for yourself it may not help.
Second as lighhousekeeper said writing a 1 minute post and spending 1 minute to read the reponse is still easier than the few hours needed to really investigate a game as complex as a text sim: (1) download and installing the demo (2) playing through a few seasons (3) comparing statistical output to real life conditions (4) tweaking configuration settings based on #3 (5) repeating steps 2-3 . (6) deciding this is a better option than ootp.
(it's still even easier when you add on the additional flame-post reading and writing.) text sims are more than just simple pick-up-and-go games. they are something that developers invest a huge amount of time in and as players we invest an even larger amount of time and our spirits in. before i begin that journey, i want to know that going down that path is even worth the effort.
How can a developer honestly answer a complex question like that with only a few words, it seems to me that "you" will want more info. when you could just test drive yourself. Its okay to take the time to try it, maybe thats a part of our instant gratification world?
No disrespect or flaming was meant by my original post, everyone has there own method to try a game and I've seen plenty of these "why should I buy" threads here and elsewhere. I guess I'm more of a hands-on person.

[Tim Tellean]

I wish the people who do 3d for the FM series could produce a low-cost API for indy text sim developers. If they could provide an engine w/APIs for around $500-$1000, I would jump on it. But that is probably absurdly low.

That would be absolutely incredible.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Here's an analogy.

You go to a out to eat, considering a place, and the place is a mom and pop deal. The guy that owns it is the chef. He does all the cooking himself, and he has 1 person part time to help server people.

So, you walk in and he has prepared information to show you what is available (menu, descriptions, pictures, etc.)

In addition, he will let you sample a huge portion of anything off the menu for free, no strings, and the max this meal would cost would be $19.99 - $24.99 range....

Would you respond with, "I don't really have time to try it, but me and each potential customer that come in really deserve to have the chef come out and describe to us what incentive we have to eat here over the place down the street. I can't believe he isn't coming out here doing that!"

[Tim Tellean]

Come on Gary how about video of you dunking the ball? ...lol

Gary's short.....He'd need a ladder......:)

[DanGarion]

Here's an analogy.

You go to a out to eat, considering a place, and the place is a mom and pop deal. The guy that owns it is the chef. He does all the cooking himself, and he has 1 person part time to help server people.

So, you walk in and he has prepared information to show you what is available (menu, descriptions, pictures, etc.)

In addition, he will let you sample a huge portion of anything off the menu for free, no strings, and the max this meal would cost would be $19.99 - $24.99 range....

Would you respond with, "I don't really have time to try it, but me and each potential customer that come in really deserve to have the chef come out and describe to us what incentive we have to eat here over the place down the street. I can't believe he isn't coming out here doing that!"
Typically there is a waitress I can ask questions to and she will give me suggestions and descriptions of what I can expect with the food though Shaun! :) Plus the food items typically have descriptions.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Typically there is a waitress I can ask questions to and she will give me suggestions and descriptions of what I can expect with the food though Shaun! :) Plus the food items typically have descriptions.

Here, let me try:

"PureSim is delicious, my personal favorite, not too filling, not too lite. You'll love it. But, don't take my word for it, why not try it for yourself, free. If it doesn't suit you, you can always leave and not spend a dime!"

:)

[cubboyroy1826]

Very nice guys.:)

[DanGarion]

Here, let me try:

"PureSim is delicious, my personal favorite, not too filling, not too lite. You'll love it. But, don't take my word for it, why not try it for yourself, free. If it doesn't suit you, you can always leave and not spend a dime!"

:)

Yes, but why would I like it over OOTP? I'm a big fan of OOTP and have invested a number of meals to OOTP, they offer a similar option to try it free. Before I invest my time to order and taste the product can you give me some key points of what makes yours better? :)

I hope you know I'm mainly just joking around with you Shaun, but honestly I bought PS2 and played it for about 1 hour, and never even installed PS3 after I go it free with the PS2 purchase. I love how receptive to suggestions for the product, and I just like the conversations I see you involved with. But part of being the major player in the product is selling it to all of your market, not just the ones that want to take the car for a test drive. :)

[jbergey22]

Yes, but why would I like it over OOTP? I'm a big fan of OOTP and have invested a number of meals to OOTP, they offer a similar option to try it free. Before I invest my time to order and taste the product can you give me some key points of what makes yours better? :)

I hope you know I'm mainly just joking around with you Shaun, but honestly I bought PS2 and played it for about 1 hour, and never even installed PS3 after I go it free with the PS2 purchase. I love how receptive to suggestions for the product, and I just like the conversations I see you involved with. But part of being the major player in the product is selling it to all of your market, not just the ones that want to take the car for a test drive. :)

It doesnt have the players sucking after age 30 bug that OOTP has Dan. It also doesnt have the player getting hurt for 6 months in his prime and sucking so bad hes out of the league within 2 years bug either:)

[Shaun Sullivan]

Yes, but why would I like it over OOTP? I'm a big fan of OOTP and have invested a number of meals to OOTP, they offer a similar option to try it free. Before I invest my time to order and taste the product can you give me some key points of what makes yours better? :)


Here lies the dichotomy. Markus and I have a very healthy respect for one another, we both are the direct creators of our respective games. If we were massive conglomerates, it would be easy to hide behind employees that patrolled forums, and pointed out weaknesses in the competition's game.

But, we aren't... So, if I respond directly comparing PS to OOTP and why PS is so much better than OOTP, it just feels a little too weird. We both have taken a few shots in the past, and I won't speak for Markus, but when I did, it didn't feel right. Then it leads to an even worse flame war, etc.

So the only way to do it is release the demos, and that is what we do. Markus and OOTP (and Clay with Mogul) have proven that this is a viable market, I just need to keep plugging.

I have been pretty verbose for a guy that was never going to post again :)

[DanGarion]

It doesnt have the players sucking after age 30 bug that OOTP has Dan. It also doesnt have the player getting hurt for 6 months in his prime and sucking so bad hes out of the league within 2 years bug either:)

Yeah but is there multiplayer? I swear if there was multiplayer and a way to convert a OOTP league to PS the RWBL would consider it, just for the fact that you stated about why OOTP grates me sometimes!

[DanGarion]

Here lies the dichotomy. Markus and I have a very healthy respect for one another, we both are the direct creators of our respective games. If we were massive conglomerates, it would be easy to hide behind employees that patrolled forums, and pointed out weaknesses in the competition's game.

But, we aren't... So, if I respond directly comparing PS to OOTP and why PS is so much better than OOTP, it just feels a little too weird. We both have taken a few shots in the past, and I won't speak for Markus, but when I did, it didn't feel right. Then it leads to an even worse flame war, etc.

So the only way to do it is release the demos, and that is what we do. Markus and OOTP (and Clay with Mogul) have proven that this is a viable market, I just need to keep plugging.

I have been pretty verbose for a guy that was never going to post again :)

The last thing I want you to do is slam the other product. :)

[jbergey22]

Yeah but is there multiplayer? I swear if there was multiplayer and a way to convert a OOTP league to PS the RWBL would consider it, just for the fact that you stated about why OOTP grates me sometimes!

As far as I know it doesnt. I've sort of gone sour on OOTP. Our RWBL seems like a 30 and under league. The Real World has gone out of it. Now we turned down injuries to cover up for the above mentioned bug so the league is overly stacked with talent at all times.

[cubboyroy1826]

Shaun I really don't think that we are asking you to bash OOTP or Markus. I think that would not be taken well by most of the community. I think some would truly like to know what is different between the two games. Why would someone want to pickup PS, who is your target buyer? Other than someone with a credit card ready to buy. :)

[RedKingGold]

Game developers are such drama queens.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Game developers are such drama queens.

I can totally see your point, but I swear, you need to walk a mile in my shoes :)

[johneh]

For what I have seen over the years Shaun is one of the most hardworking guys in the text sim field. He is also one of (if not the) most responsive author's to his customers.

Yes, he has retires as much as Farve but he keeps coming back. It would be easy for his to walk away from Puresim... OOTP has plenty of hardcore fans, Baseball Mogul has been sold in Wal-Mart & Best Buy. So I'm sure many times he thinks it is crazy to spend so much time working on a project that has not brought him enough financial gain to justify the amount of time he gives up with his family and all the lost sleep. But he keeps getting dragged in because he loves working on Puresim and wishes that it could be his full time job.

So.. maybe he is being a bit of a drama queen in the eyes of some but those who have been around know Shaun is a top notch developer.

[RedKingGold]

I can totally see your point, but I swear, you need to walk a mile in my shoes :)

Posts like this prove my point.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Posts like this prove my point.

Can't argue with you there.

[RomaGoth]

This thread has exceeded my expectations.