NFL Week 17

[ColtCrazy]

Some observations...

Some bad calls against the Bengals. Still, happy to see them get in over a not very good Titans team and the Jets.

Still hate the Pats. I think the only way they don't make the super bowl is if they end up having to play the Steelers and Ravens back to back.

The Colts offseason is going to be interesting.

The Saints-Pack title game is this years super bowl, the real super bowl won't compare.

[Lathum]

At what point does Romo become a liability? IT seems obvious he isn't right. The one deep ball was poorly thrown, he isn't scrambling well, and seems very skittish.

[Lathum]

Shit Tynes, can't leave points on the board

[hoopsguy]

I have wondered, at times this year, if Rob Ryan is throwing games with his inept schemes and play calls. But the players are contributing to this one with their butter fingers ... so frustrating.

[cougarfreak]

Man, the refereeing at the Bengals game was atrocious. I don't know if anyone watched it, but good god, in person it was horrendous.

[hoopsguy]

Bradshaw 30 yard run there is Exhibit A of horrible schemes by Ryan. No idea what was supposed to happen there.

[jeff061]

Still hate the Pats. I think the only way they don't make the super bowl is if they end up having to play the Steelers and Ravens back to back.

.


See, with their defense, there almost isn't a team in the league that I don't think has a shot to beat them on any given Sunday. And while their offense has been consistent when looking at the numbers at a high level post game, they've been pretty erratic during the game. Not to much of a stretch to see them struggling to get it going one day.

[ColtCrazy]

If the Colts do decide to resign and then shop Manning, I can see an epic bidding war being played between Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones.

Sure looks like wild card weekend will be won by nfc home teams and afc road teams.

[spleen1015]

I'll take Manning being traded to the Redskins. I'll be first in line to buy his jersey.

[Julio Riddols]

Should be interesting to see if Washington or Miami try to trade up for RG3.

Or Jacksonville.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Will someone please take Eddie Trunk's Twitter access away from him until the NFL season is over. His obsession with coaches who have the last name Ryan is getting downright scary.

[Julio Riddols]

Man, the refereeing at the Bengals game was atrocious. I don't know if anyone watched it, but good god, in person it was horrendous.

It was horrendous no matter how anyone saw it. I usually think bad calls kind of even themselves out during most games, but this was like the Bengals playing against the Ravens AND the Refs.

[Hammer755]

Ryan Fitzpatrick: Example #4,539 why you don't give players big extensions in the middle of the year. Remember when we were 5-2? That was awesome!

[Lathum]

Cowboys put together a nice drive and look like they made some good adjustments at the half. Eli needs to answer with a good drive here.

[Lathum]

Getting a little nervous now

[Julio Riddols]

Ryan Fitzpatrick: Example #4,539 why you don't give players big extensions in the middle of the year. Remember when we were 5-2? That was awesome!

Its tough to be successful when your defense is complete ass.

[EagleFan]

If the Colts do decide to resign and then shop Manning, I can see an epic bidding war being played between Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones.

Sure looks like wild card weekend will be won by nfc home teams and afc road teams.

Isn't he already signed?

[RendeR]

It was horrendous no matter how anyone saw it. I usually think bad calls kind of even themselves out during most games, but this was like the Bengals playing against the Ravens AND the Refs.



+5000000



God that was a horribly officiated game.


Here's hoping the playoff games are handled better.


No matter the outcome from here on out I'm THRILLED for this season. We're 2nd or 3rd youngest in the NFL and this team played its ass off. Can't wait to see what a few more pieces of the puzzle and a full offseason and training camp can do for these guys.

Bengals need to draft a Shutdown corner with one of those 2 first rounders then perhaps a top flight safety with the other.

[EagleFan]

Getting a little nervous now

Why? Did the Cowboys trade Romo at halftime? ;)

[Racer]

If the Colts do decide to resign and then shop Manning, I can see an epic bidding war being played between Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones.

Sure looks like wild card weekend will be won by nfc home teams and afc road teams.

I think if the Colts decide to keep Manning (which I think would be a mistake given the state of team around him) then the most likely trade suitors for Andrew Luck would be Cleveland (have Atlanta's 1st round pick as well), Washington, Miami, and maybe Minnesota as a long shot. Of course, guessing what team would want to trade up is pure speculation.

I honestly can't see Luck willing to sit behind Manning for a year. That's not really an option given Manning's contract so I don't think the Colts will begin next season with both.

[hoopsguy]

Witten was really weak on that one not pushing hard for first down, but trying to get cute.

[hoopsguy]

And it costs the team ... was hoping to see a replay on Witten to determine if he was soft, or super-soft.

[Lathum]

Starting to feel a little sick. Having flashbacks of the Eagles game last year. Giants at the very least need a long drive to give the defense a break. A FG at the very least would be nice to go up by 2 scores.

[Racer]

By the way, how bad is the Rams front office?

2012 - 2nd overall pick
2011 - 14th overall pick
2010 - 1st overall pick
2009 - 2nd overall pick
2008 - 2nd overall pick

That's a really bad five year stretch.

[Scoobz0202]

I love the Cowboys, but I fucking hate this team. This defense is inept as fuck.

[sabotai]

Nicks makes me nervous with the way he just holds the ball out when he's running with it. Wouldn't surprise me if that behavior results in a few costly fumbles in the future.

[kingfc22]

Enjoy the off season Jerry!

[Lathum]

Nicks makes me nervous with the way he just holds the ball out when he's running with it. Wouldn't surprise me if that behavior results in a few costly fumbles in the future.

I agree but his hands are so huge and he seems to have a great sense of when to tuck it in.

[cougarfreak]

I heard a stat on the way to the Bengals game I forgot to share. This was the 10th game this season the Bengals have had a game where they are plying a top 10 defense. All things considered, I'd say Dalton and Green have had a hell of a first year.

[EagleFan]

This takes a little of the edge off the lousy season, thanks Giants.

[Rizon]

Romo!!!!!!!!!!

[Danny]

Giants will be a dangerous team in the postseason. I wouldn't want to play them

[sabotai]

Happy the Giants make it to the playoffs and I am thoroughly prepared for the Giants to get bounced in the first round.

[Grover]

I heard a stat on the way to the Bengals game I forgot to share. This was the 10th game this season the Bengals have had a game where they are plying a top 10 defense. All things considered, I'd say Dalton and Green have had a hell of a first year.

Absolutely. I can't wait for them with another year of maturity and growth under their belt and a hopefully healthy Jordan Shipley in the slot.

I have to say I've been very impressed with Hawkins as well, I hope he can continue to grow as well.

[Danny]

Happy the Giants make it to the playoffs and I am thoroughly prepared for the Giants to get bounced in the first round.

I think they beat the Falcons. They can beat anyone in the league when they are on, but they lack consistency

[Crapshoot]

The Giants scare me, IMO. I think they could beat the 49ers (they were pretty close earlier this year), and potentially the Saints as well, and they played the Packers well.

[Danny]

You guys need a Bengals love thread

[sabotai]

Eli finished 67 yards short of 5000 passing yards with 4,933, shattering the Giants previous single season record for most passing yards held by Kerry Collins (4,073).

[Matthean]

Happy the Giants make it to the playoffs and I am thoroughly prepared for the Giants to get bounced in the first round.

Atlanta is rather beatable.

[Danny]

We are in the time of the passing game with rule changes along with some really good qbs

[sabotai]

I think they beat the Falcons. They can beat anyone in the league when they are on, but they lack consistency

Atlanta is rather beatable.

STOP GETTING MY HOPES UP! :D

[Lathum]

I am beyond fired up right now. With all the injuries I didn't expect much from this team. With a division win and a home playoff game I am ecstatic. This tam reminds me a lot of the superbowl team. I was critical of Coughlin earlier in the year, but looking at the season as a whole he has done a great job.

[mckerney]

Wilfs don't plan on any major changes | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/136515073.html)

<i>Vikings owner Zygi Wilf, while saying he was disappointed with the 3-13 record after losing 17-13 to the Bears on Sunday, said that there would be "no radical changes among the football executives, including coach Leslie Frazier, for the 2012 season."

That likely means that all those who call the shots when it comes to football personnel will return, including Rick Spielman, vice president of personnel; Rob Brzezinski, vice president of football operations; George Paton, director of player personnel, and Scott Studwell, director of college scouting. But there could be some changes among the assistant coaches.

While members of the media continue to encourage the owners of the team to name a general manager, this is something the Wilfs haven't believed necessary, and Zygi refused to comment on that subject. But I wouldn't be surprised if a move is made before Zygi and Mark Wilf leave the Twin Cities on Tuesday, with Spielman being put in charge of the football said of the operations.

After going 6-10 last year and 3-13 this year, I have a hunch that the Wilfs will give strong consideration to giving more power to somebody in the organization, and the likely candidate would be Spielman.</i>

Fuck, these idiots are the reason the Vikings are in the shape their in and they might get promoted. Hoping this isn't true, or the Wilfs really are the worst owners in the league.

[hoopsguy]

Rather pathetic that the top two items that make you consider a season a succcess are other teams not making the playoffs. You must have a sad life.

This takes a little of the edge off the lousy season, thanks Giants.

Et tu, EagleFan?

[cuervo72]

Hmm. I like Eli's shirt and tie combo.


/does not wear ties often, but does like them

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think if the Colts decide to keep Manning (which I think would be a mistake given the state of team around him) then the most likely trade suitors for Andrew Luck would be Cleveland (have Atlanta's 1st round pick as well), Washington, Miami, and maybe Minnesota as a long shot. Of course, guessing what team would want to trade up is pure speculation.

I honestly can't see Luck willing to sit behind Manning for a year. That's not really an option given Manning's contract so I don't think the Colts will begin next season with both.

Is it crazy to think that the 49ers might want to be on this list? And that they possibly have enough young defensive talent to make it work without ruining the team?

[RainMaker]

I don't see how the 49ers could do it. They just don't have good enough picks in the 1st round. Cleveland makes sense although I wonder if you'll get pushback from Luck on going there. I think Washington will overpay for the pick though and give up like 6-7 high picks over the next few years. Just seems like a Dan Snyder thing to do.

[Thomkal]

My beloved Cardinals really aren't laughing at you Cowboys for icing your kicker and going on to lose the game and then not making the playoffs. Really they aren't. :)

I just wish they had lost that game to Seattle-hurt their draft position with Seattle above them, and maybe a few teams between them and us now. I also hope we get some quality O-Line talent next season so poor Kevin Kolb isn't running for his life every game. Not a good start to his Cardinal career.

[SteveMax58]

I am beyond fired up right now. With all the injuries I didn't expect much from this team. With a division win and a home playoff game I am ecstatic. This tam reminds me a lot of the superbowl team. I was critical of Coughlin earlier in the year, but looking at the season as a whole he has done a great job.

I agree on the whole. I think we'll be as good or as bad as the d-line is healthy & energetic, though. JPP, Osi, Tuck, Canty, Joseph, will ALL need to be on their game as we rely on beating up QBs and making them nervous.

Bradshaw looked a little healthier & the o-line seems to have at least settled into some form of being mediocre (as opposed to bad) so we may have a shot at getting past Atlanta.

That said...I'm fully prepared for a 27-10 meltdown game.

[gstelmack]

Man, the refereeing at the Bengals game was atrocious. I don't know if anyone watched it, but good god, in person it was horrendous.

I watched Jets/Dolphins, Ravens/Bengals, and parts of Giants/Cowboys, and it was quite clear the refs were in playoff whistle-swallowing mode already, except for offsides / false start which were thrown in plenty. As just one example, on the late key Matt Moore TD where he scrambled left, the announcers completely ignored the WR getting tackled at the back of the end zone. Lots of that all day.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Congrats Hines on reaching your goal of 1000 career receptions!

This is one of those stats that seems a little forced, but still I guess a little telling in terms of longevity + ability:

Two players in NFL history have 1,000 catches AND 2 Super Bowl rings - Jerry Rice and Hines Ward.

[JPhillips]

Good looking schedule for the Bengals in 2012.

The Bengals will host the Denver Broncos and Dallas Cowboys, along with the much anticipated Carson Palmer return to Cincinnati with the Oakland Raiders visiting. Cincinnati's home schedule rounds out with the New York Giants and Miami Dolphins. The Bengals will play on the road against the Chiefs, Chargers, Eagles, Redskins and Jaguars.

[DaddyTorgo]

Good looking schedule for the Bengals in 2012.

That's a pretty kind schedule. There's 7 pretty flawed/bad teams on there.

[JPhillips]

That's a pretty kind schedule. There's 7 pretty flawed/bad teams on there.

They get Miami and Jacksonville for finishing third in the division and the AFC West isn't likely to be a powerhouse next year.

[DaddyTorgo]

They get Miami and Jacksonville for finishing third in the division and the AFC West isn't likely to be a powerhouse next year.

Denver/Dallas/Oakland/Washington are all totally beatable too (to one degree or another).

[MIJB#19]

We are in the time of the passing game with rule changes along with some really good qbsWhat patch of FOF are they on at NFL? I think they missed one or two of the recent ones.

[panerd]

Good looking schedule for the Bengals in 2012.

Why don't the Chiefs just join the AFC North? Seems like I have attended more Bengals games at Arrowhead the past ten years than Rams home games.

Agree on the easy looking schedule. Can't beat the playoffs and a third place schedule!

[Arles]

Per the Rodgers/Brees debate, the numbers are close. Still, Rodgers less than half his interceptions (14 to 6), averaged almost a yard more per attempt (9.25 to 8.34) and had more total TDs (48 to 47) despite playing 1 fewer game. Plus, if you add Rodgers rushing yards he's pretty close to Brees on yards per game. Brees also threw the ball 157 more times than Rodgers despite having a worse defense (32nd to NO's 24, on pts GB is 19 and NO 13) and running game (No is 6 in yds and ave 4.9 ypc - GB was 27th and had 3.9 ypc). There's also consistency - Brees had 3 games with 1 TD and 3 games with more INTs than TDs. Rodgers had one game all season with 1 TD (but added one rushing) and never had more INTs than TDs. He was +2 or better on passing TD/INT in all games but 2. Brees had 6 times he was +1 or worse. Brees had pockets where he went 1-2, 2-1, 1-3 and then 5-0 against Indy. Putting up 5 TDs against the Indys, Carolinas and Minnesotas shouldn't cancel out the 4-5 subpar games he had earlier. Outside of KC, Rodgers was a rock every week.

So, in summary, despite having a significantly worse statistical defense and running game, Rodgers had more TDs, half the INTs, a higher ypa and was simply more consistent week to week with a lot of holes in other areas of the team. Both had great seasons, but given GB's defense and running game - the fact that Rodgers had 48 total TDs and just 6 picks is quite an achievement. Plus, he didn't need 3 5+ TD games against crap defenses to cancel out 3-4 subpar games against other teams.

[jbergey22]

Not much to debate IMO. Rodgers had clearly the better season. The Saints chose to care more about personal accomplishments more than the Packers did. Give it to the man that deserves it and not the man that was allowed to accumulate big numbers based on his coaching staff finding that part of the game exciting.

[RainMaker]

Rodgers is the MVP. No doubt in my mind. Brees made a great run late but I know what I saw throughout the entire season. The argument for Brees is based on one particular statistic and a record that means absolutely nothing in this era.

[Tigercat]

The argument for Brees is based on one particular statistic and a record that means absolutely nothing in this era.

He set two major records, yards and completion percentage. So of the four major categories for judging the positive accomplishments of a QB, (others being TDs and yards per) he set half of the single season records this year.

Absolutely nothing? Wow. I guess Brees, Rogers, and Brady were taking steroids and we stopped keeping track of offensive yards when I wasn't looking. Someone should tell all those fantasy owners to find a new hobby, because as soon as stats progress upwards they mean absolutely nothing. Might as well not even change the record book until the NFL can give us more shutouts per year.

[RainMaker]

He set two major records, yards and completion percentage. So of the four major categories for judging the positive accomplishments of a QB, (others being TDs and yards per) he set half of the single season records this year.

Absolutely nothing? Wow. I guess Brees, Rogers, and Brady were taking steroids and we stopped keeping track of offensive yards when I wasn't looking. Someone should tell all those fantasy owners to find a new hobby, because as soon as stats progress upwards they mean absolutely nothing. Might as well not even change the record book until the NFL can give us more shutouts per year.

The only reason Brees is being considered for the MVP is because he broke the records. Records that are much easier to obtain at this point in time.

So my question is this, would Brees even be considered if he didn't break a record? Because that yardage record is going to fall a few more times this decade and I don't think we have to give the MVP award out every time a person does it. I mean Matt Stafford came 50 yards away from beating Marino's mark, it doesn't mean what it did.

It's like moving the fences in 100 feet in baseball, having someone break the HR record and then give him the MVP even if there is a guy who had a better overall season.

[RendeR]

Rain: Thats utter horseshit. He's being considered based on the body of work he did all season long. No one is ever considered for NFL MVP based on a SINGLE statistic. Its about what you mean to your team.

The biggest thing I see in Brees' favor is the fact that Rodgers BACKUP through for more yards in a game than Ridger's ever will.

Hence one could posulate (oooooo big word) that Brees is in fact far more valuable to his team than Rodgers is to the packers.

Without brees, the Saints win 5 games this season.

Without Rodgers? The Packers still make the playoffs, if not win the division.

Brees did more, with less talent around him than Rodgers did.

Lets drop this idiotic argument that brees is ONLY being considered due to one single achievement. its ludicrous at best.

[RainMaker]

Rodgers was an absolute lock for the MVP before Brees broke the record. I'm sorry, if there was no record, I don't think we'd be arguing about this. We'd all say how great Brees was, he'd get some votes perhaps, but the award would go to Rodgers. The guy with a 122.5 QB rating on a 15-1 team.

And I don't know if Rodgers has that much more talent around him. That offensive line isn't all that good. He has elite receivers, but Brees has some damn good weapons too.

Rodgers is being punished because he has a good backup and played on a team that didn't throw the ball in blowouts so that he could chase records. If Rodger had thrown the ball as much as Brees, he'd have come close to cracking 6,000.

[gstelmack]

Rodgers was an absolute lock for the MVP before Brees broke the record.

...

Rodgers is being punished because he has a good backup and played on a team that didn't throw the ball in blowouts so that he could chase records. If Rodger had thrown the ball as much as Brees, he'd have come close to cracking 6,000.

It comes back to the definition of "Valuable". Even when Brees broke the record, folks started saying "Well, he deserves consideration certainly, but that doesn't make him MVP. Maybe offensive player of the year." It was Matt Flynn throwing for 480 yards and 6 TDs that had people go "Hmmm, maybe it wasn't all Rodgers up there in Green Bay, he might not be as valuable as we think to that team."

You can put down records all you want, the only reason Rodgers was being considered for MVP was being undefeated until the KC game, and losing that one opened the door for other considerations.

[RainMaker]

Rodgers was being considered for MVP because he is by far the more efficient quarterback and put up video game numbers on a weekly basis. He is being punished for not throwing 150 more times.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Rain: Thats utter horseshit. He's being considered based on the body of work he did all season long. No one is ever considered for NFL MVP based on a SINGLE statistic. Its about what you mean to your team.

The biggest thing I see in Brees' favor is the fact that Rodgers BACKUP through for more yards in a game than Ridger's ever will.

Hence one could posulate (oooooo big word) that Brees is in fact far more valuable to his team than Rodgers is to the packers.

Without brees, the Saints win 5 games this season.

Without Rodgers? The Packers still make the playoffs, if not win the division.

Brees did more, with less talent around him than Rodgers did.

Lets drop this idiotic argument that brees is ONLY being considered due to one single achievement. its ludicrous at best.

It comes back to the definition of "Valuable". Even when Brees broke the record, folks started saying "Well, he deserves consideration certainly, but that doesn't make him MVP. Maybe offensive player of the year." It was Matt Flynn throwing for 480 yards and 6 TDs that had people go "Hmmm, maybe it wasn't all Rodgers up there in Green Bay, he might not be as valuable as we think to that team."

You can put down records all you want, the only reason Rodgers was being considered for MVP was being undefeated until the KC game, and losing that one opened the door for other considerations.

+1...er 2 on these.

If you are giving it to the guy who is more valuable, ie his team winning is dependant on his performance, I say Brees.

But, much like the Hart in the NHL, it typically is going to the best player, statistically, and not necessarily the most valuable. Off the top of my head, the last guy to win based on his "valuable-ness" and not just stats was whatever year McNair shared with Peyton - 2003?

[Ksyrup]

Yet another area where baseball has completely different standards than football. Baseball writers go apopletic if you consider the best player to be the "most valuable," yet you rarely hear much more than a muffled throat-clearing about it in the NFL.

[BillJasper]

+1...er 2 on these.

If you are giving it to the guy who is more valuable, ie his team winning is dependant on his performance, I say Brees.



Are we really going to equate a single performance in a game that meant nothing to Green Bay to a body of work that includes a 13 game win streak and a Super Bowl title in a twelve month span?

Let's be honest, that Detroit defense isn't exactly the Ravens... or the Patriots for that matter.

[Lathum]

I think Brees and Rodgers steal votes from each other paving the way for Eli to win it.

[Jas_lov]

Rain: Thats utter horseshit. He's being considered based on the body of work he did all season long. No one is ever considered for NFL MVP based on a SINGLE statistic. Its about what you mean to your team.

The biggest thing I see in Brees' favor is the fact that Rodgers BACKUP through for more yards in a game than Ridger's ever will.

Hence one could posulate (oooooo big word) that Brees is in fact far more valuable to his team than Rodgers is to the packers.

Without brees, the Saints win 5 games this season.

Without Rodgers? The Packers still make the playoffs, if not win the division.

Brees did more, with less talent around him than Rodgers did.

Lets drop this idiotic argument that brees is ONLY being considered due to one single achievement. its ludicrous at best.

I've already said this, if your argument is how good or bad the backup is then Peyton Manning is the 2011 MVP. You can't base your argument on Matt Flynn's performance in one game. Flynn has been in the system for 4 years working with those receivers. Rodgers vs Brees is a debate, but what the backup QB does really has nothing to do with it, it's a debate between Rodgers and Brees and what each has done this season. Remember that Rodgers was able to sit that last game because of how dominant he was the first 15 games.

[Butter]

Good looking schedule for the Bengals in 2012.

Thanks Jets, Broncos, and Raiders for actually being worse at playing under pressure than the Bengals.

[Ksyrup]

JasonLaCanfora (http://twitter.com/#!/JasonLaCanfora) Jason La Canfora
Jerry Angelo is out as Bears GM. The team's football staff was informed of the development this morning. More on NFL Network

[BillJasper]

Without brees, the Saints win 5 games this season.

Without Rodgers? The Packers still make the playoffs, if not win the division.

Brees did more, with less talent around him than Rodgers did.


*cough*Bullshit!*cough*

Guess you forgot about Darren Sproles who set the single season yardage record or Jimmy Graham who shortly held the receiving record for most yards in a single season by a Tight End or Marques Colston or Pierre Thomas or Devery Henderson...

Since Chase Daniel has never started a game in New Orleans (he's attempted a total of 8 passes), we honestly don't know what he could do with the tools that Brees' has.

[Coffee Warlord]

JasonLaCanfora (http://twitter.com/#!/JasonLaCanfora) Jason La Canfora
Jerry Angelo is out as Bears GM. The team's football staff was informed of the development this morning. More on NFL Network

HOOORAY!

[larrymcg421]

You can put down records all you want, the only reason Rodgers was being considered for MVP was being undefeated until the KC game, and losing that one opened the door for other considerations.

Let's not forget that Rodgers set a record himself with the highest QB rating in league history. Many people were talking about how he was having one of the best seasons for a QB ever. Brees set a record, but it took him 150 more pass attempts to do it. Rodgers had almost a full yard per pass attempt advantage on Brees (9.2-8.3). He also beats Brees in TD% (9.0-7.0), INT% (1.2-2.1), Y/C (13.5-11.7). It's one thing to argue differences in talent (eventhough I'd disagree with that argument), but to say the only reason Rodgers was being considered for MVP was his record is just completely absurd and not supported by the numbers at all.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Not that I really care who wins the MVP, but if I had a vote, I would definitely vote for Aaron Rodgers.

[Arles]

Since when is having a crappy backup QB a recipe for winning the MVP? Rodgers shouldn't be punished because the Saints have never been good enough to take a game off and see how good Daniels is (or even invested in a better backup QB). Maybe if Brees wouldn't have laid eggs against the juggernaut defenses of St. Louis and Tampa, we could have seen how good Chase Daniels was in week 17.

Another thing to consider, Rodgers had 3 games all season inside of dome. He also had to play 4 games in GB in Nov/Dec, 1 in windy Giants stadium and 1 in KC in December. Brees played 11 games in domes, including 8 of the final 9 games of the season. The one he played outside was the Tennessee game in November where the Saints scored 22 points and nearly lost to Jake Locker on a last second play. When you look at the cold/bad weather games Rodgers, Brady and Manning had to play, their numbers look a lot better. Brees had to play one "bad" weather game all season and it was against a marginal Tennessee team (with no rain/snow and little wind).

[BillJasper]

Since when is having a crappy backup QB a recipe for winning the MVP? Rodgers shouldn't be punished because the Saints have never been good enough to take a game off and see how good Daniels is (or even invested in a better backup QB). Maybe if Brees wouldn't have laid eggs against the juggernaut defenses of St. Louis and Tampa, we could have seen how good Chase Daniels was in week 17.

Another thing to consider, Rodgers had 3 games all season inside of dome. He also had to play 4 games in GB in Nov/Dec, 1 in windy Giants stadium and 1 in KC in December. Brees played 11 games in domes, including 8 of the final 9 games of the season. The one he played outside was the Tennessee game in November where the Saints scored 22 points and nearly lost to Jake Locker on a last second play. When you look at the cold/bad weather games Rodgers, Brady and Manning had to play, their numbers look a lot better. Brees had to play one "bad" weather game all season and it was against a marginal Tennessee team (with no rain/snow and little wind).

Excellent points. Rodgers would get my MVP vote if I had one.

[Doug5984]

Since when is having a crappy backup QB a recipe for winning the MVP? Rodgers shouldn't be punished because the Saints have never been good enough to take a game off and see how good Daniels is (or even invested in a better backup QB). Maybe if Brees wouldn't have laid eggs against the juggernaut defenses of St. Louis and Tampa, we could have seen how good Chase Daniels was in week 17.




I've pretty much stayed out of the debate because I know I'm a homer- and really both players deserve it after the seasons they've had (only one should get it)... but you can't blame Brees for the loss to TBay & St Louis. If you watched those 2 games you would know the loss of coach Payton was a HUGE blow to the team- not to mention how bad the O-line played (missing RT). They are losses, and it really sucks about what happened to Payton, because that cost us the # 2 seed- but you can't put that on Brees. Not to mention Kreutz was so bad against Tampa (the game Payton was in the locker room because he got hurt) he quit football altogether.

Also, are you blaming the Saints for being in a dome, and playing dome teams and being built for the dome? They'd be dumb to build the team for outside, we play in the NFC south, not the North. I'd hope GB is better at playing outside than us. If you want to say that gives GB the advantage if we play there for the NFCCG then I'll give you that, but again that's not fair to hold against Brees.

Really I'd say let Rodgers have it, I wish Brees would win it, and any other year I think he would. However, I think Rodgers did more with less on offense (I think the Saints O has more talent than GB). Sproles, PT, Ingram, Ivory, Graham, Colston, Moore, Henderson, Meachem. 3 of the 5 O-line going to the probowl. Jennings and Nelson are great players but as a whole I would take our O over theirs.

Brees should without question get offensive player of the year though- led the league in TDs (Rodgers sat a full game, Brees sat a few 4th quarters and handed the ball off a lot in blowouts so it's close). Set all-time records in yardage (in 15 games), and completion %. I don't like the QB rating system at all, it is flawed, I think we've all agreed on that at some point? It's a good indicator of overall performance but shouldn't be used to separate 2 evenly matched guys- I like looking at it when I want to see the whole league and if a guy is in the 60s I know he sucks, if he is above 100 I know it was a great year. The QB ratings likes long passes better, I think completion % and efficiency is better, like 3rd down % (57% v 48%).

Both players had amazing years- I don't think either is a wrong choice, I wish Brees would win, but I'm pretty sure it'll be Rodgers

[EagleFan]

Et tu, EagleFan?

There's a difference between saying that it takes an edge off a bad season and saying that it made the season. :)

[spleen1015]

Split the MVP between Brees and Rodgers like they did a few years ago with Manning and McNair.

[EagleFan]

Rodgers is the MVP. No doubt in my mind. Brees made a great run late but I know what I saw throughout the entire season. The argument for Brees is based on one particular statistic and a record that means absolutely nothing in this era.

We just learned this past week that anyone could put up big numbers as the QB for the Packers though.

[BillJasper]

Also, are you blaming the Saints for being in a dome, and playing dome teams and being built for the dome? They'd be dumb to build the team for outside, we play in the NFC south, not the North. I'd hope GB is better at playing outside than us. If you want to say that gives GB the advantage if we play there for the NFCCG then I'll give you that, but again that's not fair to hold against Brees.



I don't think you hold it against him, but he did play eight more games in a clean environment. No wind, no rain and a comfortable seventy-two degrees. No receivers slipping on saturated or frozen turf and no balls slipping out of Brees' hand because of a wet ball.

[EagleFan]

I don't think you hold it against him, but he did play eight more games in a clean environment. No wind, no rain and a comfortable seventy-two degrees. No receivers slipping on saturated or frozen turf and no balls slipping out of Brees' hand because of a wet ball.

No defensive backs slipping in coverage leaving open receivers.... bad weather actually hurts the coverage more than the passing game (except for high winds).

[Doug5984]

Rodgers is the MVP. No doubt in my mind. Brees made a great run late but I know what I saw throughout the entire season. The argument for Brees is based on one particular statistic and a record that means absolutely nothing in this era.

One particular statistic?

How about breaking the yardage record (you're meaningless record)- also means leading the league in yardage.

Leading the league in TD passes.
Breaking the greatest show on turf yardage record
Breaking his own completion % record (this is a % record, so it will always stand the test of time)
Having 13- 300 yard games
Winning 13 games (tied 2nd in league).

So like I said before, you want to give it Rodgers that's fine- but don't undercut Brees in your argument and say he only had 1 statistic.

[Doug5984]

I don't think you hold it against him, but he did play eight more games in a clean environment. No wind, no rain and a comfortable seventy-two degrees. No receivers slipping on saturated or frozen turf and no balls slipping out of Brees' hand because of a wet ball.

I'll agree with what EaglesFan says as well about coverage slipping, hell in the first game we played in GB that played a huge role. Patrick Robinson slipped down more than a few times leading to open receivers.

Also, it's a very cold 72 in the dome- if you don't have a long sleeve shirt it can get chilly before kickoff. :p

[Arles]

I've pretty much stayed out of the debate because I know I'm a homer- and really both players deserve it after the seasons they've had (only one should get it)... but you can't blame Brees for the loss to TBay & St Louis. If you watched those 2 games you would know the loss of coach Payton was a HUGE blow to the team- not to mention how bad the O-line played (missing RT). They are losses, and it really sucks about what happened to Payton, because that cost us the # 2 seed- but you can't put that on Brees. Not to mention Kreutz was so bad against Tampa (the game Payton was in the locker room because he got hurt) he quit football altogether.
And Green Bay had 4 OL and its best WR out injured against KC and lost. Usually losses happen in those situations. My point was that it seems Rodgers is being punished in the MVP debate because A) they have a good backup QB and B) they did so much better than the rest of the NFC they could afford to not play starters the last game and still get the #1 seed.

Also, are you blaming the Saints for being in a dome, and playing dome teams and being built for the dome? They'd be dumb to build the team for outside, we play in the NFC south, not the North. I'd hope GB is better at playing outside than us. If you want to say that gives GB the advantage if we play there for the NFCCG then I'll give you that, but again that's not fair to hold against Brees.
I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying it's a factor. People routinely bring up the quality of defenses both Rodgers and Brees faced in the MVP debate. I feel that playing 11/16 games in a dome is just a big of a factor in having good passing numbers. That's why I have a lot more respect for someone like Manning who had a ton of bad weather games and still put up really good passing numbers. Same goes for Brady and Rodgers.

It just seems that people are using Brees' "volume" of numbers over Rodgers' efficiency. And, if that's the case, all the good weather situations Brees played in should factor in.

Brees should without question get offensive player of the year though- led the league in TDs (Rodgers sat a full game, Brees sat a few 4th quarters and handed the ball off a lot in blowouts so it's close). Set all-time records in yardage (in 15 games), and completion %. I don't like the QB rating system at all, it is flawed, I think we've all agreed on that at some point? It's a good indicator of overall performance but shouldn't be used to separate 2 evenly matched guys- I like looking at it when I want to see the whole league and if a guy is in the 60s I know he sucks, if he is above 100 I know it was a great year. The QB ratings likes long passes better, I think completion % and efficiency is better, like 3rd down % (57% v 48%).

Both players had amazing years- I don't think either is a wrong choice, I wish Brees would win, but I'm pretty sure it'll be Rodgers
Brees had a great season and set a lot of volume passing records because the Saints chose to pass a lot more than most other teams (esp with big leads). Again, that's their choice, but I think there's something to be said for efficiency and margin for error. Rodgers had 1 more total TD (add rushing and passing) despite playing 1 fewer game. He also had half the interceptions and averaged much higher ypc and ypa. In the history of the NFL, it is almost unheard of to have a 68+% completion rate, average 9.25 per attempt - yet have a TD-INT rate of 45-6. Manning's 2004 season is widely considered the best ever and he had a 9.17 ypa, 49 TDs, 10 INT and a 67.6% completion rate.

[Doug5984]

Brees had a great season and set a lot of volume passing records because the Saints chose to pass a lot more than most other teams (esp with big leads). Again, that's their choice, but I think there's something to be said for efficiency and margin for error. Rodgers had 1 more total TD (add rushing and passing) despite playing 1 fewer game. He also had half the interceptions and averaged much higher ypc and ypa. In the history of the NFL, it is almost unheard of to have a 68+% completion rate, average 9.25 per attempt - yet have a TD-INT rate of 45-6. Manning's 2004 season is widely considered the best ever and he had a 9.17 ypa, 49 TDs, 10 INT and a 67.6% completion rate.

In my "give it to Rodgers" I think what pushed me over the edge that way was the INTs, that's huge and should play a big part. However, I think we'll just agree to disagree on the yardage, the offense as a whole put up a ton of yardage and ran a ton more plays- the plays is because we run a lot of short stuff, that's our style, we move the chains and hit a few big plays but not as many as GB... it's mostly about efficiently moving the ball down the field. To me, I'd rather have the higher completion %, and the higher 3rd down %, that's the type of offense I like- YPC and YPA are not as important- we run a lot of short passes that are basically runs to the outside, but use Sproles (86 catches)- it brings down the YPC/YPA.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I don't think I saw this mentioned earlier in the thread

Antonio Brown became the first player in NFL history with 1000 receiving yards and 1000 return yards in the same season.

Seems odd to me it hadn't happened earlier, but as I thought about it I guess it made sense. Typically teams don't use starting WR on KR, where the bulk of his return yardage is coming from. It took a perfect storm of him racking up return yards early, then replacing Ward opposite Mike Wallace, to build on his numbers he'd accumulated as the #3 WR.

[Doug5984]

I'd have thought Derrick Mason had done it before, but I just checked and he came close but he didn't.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I was thinking someone like Jermaine Lewis. He never reached 1,000 receiving yards, and the seasons he was a regular part of the offense, he wasn't used as a KR much, only a PR.

[RainMaker]

We just learned this past week that anyone could put up big numbers as the QB for the Packers though.
We also learned anyone can put up big numbers in the NFL as a QB since you can't play defense.

[Matthean]

We just learned this past week that anyone could put up big numbers as the QB for the Packers though.

You are giving Sanchez far too much credit. :D

[RainMaker]

One particular statistic?

How about breaking the yardage record (you're meaningless record)- also means leading the league in yardage.

Leading the league in TD passes.
Breaking the greatest show on turf yardage record
Breaking his own completion % record (this is a % record, so it will always stand the test of time)
Having 13- 300 yard games
Winning 13 games (tied 2nd in league).

So like I said before, you want to give it Rodgers that's fine- but don't undercut Brees in your argument and say he only had 1 statistic.

And Rodgers would have broken many of those had Rodgers thrown 150 more times this season. The most impressive thing about Rodgers numbers is on how few passes he did it with.

[Grover]

Most surprising stat I heard all weekend: Stevie Johnson is the first ever Bills WR with back to back 1,000 yard seasons. I was even more surprised to see that Andre Reed only did it four times.

[stevew]

Most surprising stat I heard all weekend: Stevie Johnson is the first ever Bills WR with back to back 1,000 yard seasons. I was even more surprised to see that Andre Reed only did it four times.

I agree with you. That really made me scratch my head, as i figured that Reed would have done it, perhaps as many as 4 years in a row.

[RainMaker]

I guess those Bills teams didn't throw that much. Looking it up, Kelly never broke 4000 yards in a season. Only threw more than 30 TDs once. They sure did run the ball well though.

[JediKooter]

And the "Official 2011 Self Destruction" for the Raiders has come to a successful conclusion...

[BillJasper]

And the "Official 2011 Self Destruction" for the Raiders has come to a successful conclusion...

They fire Jackson?

[Doug5984]

And Rodgers would have broken many of those had Rodgers thrown 150 more times this season. The most impressive thing about Rodgers numbers is on how few passes he did it with.

That's not necessarily true, like I pointed out before a lot of those attempts are due to the type offense we run. I didn't watch GB as close as I did the Saints, so I may be off base but I'd bet that a large portion of those 150 extra passes were short passes to RB/FBs, I don't remember seeing GB run that play very often.

(This takes it to the extreme, but points out the flaw in the logic, I'm saying throw deep on every play, but what if instead of throwing the short pass an extra 100 times, he throws 50 intermediate routes, the yardages/tds would stay the same- but the completion % and attempts would go down, the YPA,YPC would go up slightly)
Brees' yardage/tds could've come on fewer passes if we just threw it deep on every play hoping to complete 1 out of 3 (and converting the down), the yardage/tds stay the same but the completion % drops. That's not how we run the offense- I'm going to pull these stats from ESPN just to show what I mean.

Leading RB/FB targets for GB- James Starks, 37. Ryan Grant, 24.
Leading RB/FB targets for NO- Sproles, 111. Thomas, 56

We just run more plays in general because of our style of offense (led the league with 1,117), 129 more than GB over the season.

[JediKooter]

They fire Jackson?

Hehe! Nope, they didn't make the playoffs...again. They were headed there until someone decided to shoot a gun in Alabama. :D

[jbergey22]

That's not necessarily true, like I pointed out before a lot of those attempts are due to the type offense we run.

Its sort of easy to figure out. Yards per attempt for Rodgers X Brees pass attempts. It is pretty clear evidence that if Rodgers threw 150 more passes this past year that he would had more yardage.

You are talking about something that is unimportant to the topic as Aaron Rodgers doesnt play for the Saints so why would what the Saints do on offense have anything to do with Rodgers?

Are you saying the Brees stats are inflated by all of these simple check down passes to Sproles because they run an unconventional offense or what?

I guess I am unclear as to why you feel Rodgers might not have broken the record with 150 more pass attempts because of the short passes the Saints throw.

[Arles]

After watching the Packers all season, they just seemed more focused on getting the win and moving on to the next week. GB averaged 8.2 (#1), 9.6 (#3), 9.4 (#1) and 7.8 points per quarter. They outscored opponents 27.3-14 through 3 quarters, but were outscored 7.8-8.1 in the 4th. They took their foot off the gas to end games a lot and ran the ball a lot more than normal in the 4th.

New Orleans tended to play more like a college team as they were 6.2 in the first quarter but 9.6 (#2) in the 4th. Even with big leads, they kept piling it on and still passing. Again, that's not saying what New Orleans did was wrong, but GB could have scored a lot more points in the 4th had they made passing records a higher priority than simply running out the clock and winning.