2012 NFL Offseason thread

[cartman]

Ricky Williams announces his retirement. If he wouldn't have had those missing years, he easily would have had another 3,000 yards on top of the 10,000 he did get.

NFL.com news: Former first-round pick Williams retiring from football (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d826bd09c/article/former-firstround-pick-williams-retiring-from-football?module=HP11_headline_stack)

[Ksyrup]

The Fake ESPN <S>@</S>TheFakeESPN
Ricky Williams retirement announcement scheduled for 4:20

[spleen1015]

This offseason should be marketed as the 2012 Peyton Manning sweepstakes.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Steelers hire Todd Haley as OC



Was told that Ben Roethlisber was never notified about the Steelers intentions of hiring Todd Haley until it was a done deal

Ben's drama queen act wearing thin

[Ksyrup]

He probably read MMQB and figured it was not happening. PK apparently got some bad info that Haley was difficult to get along with and the KC phone bugging thing meant he wasn't being hired. Then a few hours later... hired.

[albionmoonlight]

Based on nothing but my gut, I say Peyton Manning to Miami.

[Coffee Warlord]

Personally, I think Peyton to the Niners makes the most sense. That's instant contender next year if he's okay to play.

[JPhillips]

AJ Green is going to have an interesting offseason.

He may try to get in some fishing this trip. A.J. and his girlfriend Miranda Brooke are getting into the water sports.

[spleen1015]

Based on nothing but my gut, I say Peyton Manning to Miami.

I want him to go to the Redskins and some how get them to the Super Bowl.

What do you guys think about this? Wayne and Saturday are both FA, I believe. What if all 3 of them land in the same place for a last ditch title run?

Manning, Wayne and Marshall in Miami sounds like a winner to me.

[Ksyrup]

Manning, Wayne and Marshall in Miami sounds like a winner to me.

Sounds better than Wade, LeBron and Bosh.

[DCSportsFan12]

I want him to go to the Redskins and some how get them to the Super Bowl.

What do you guys think about this? Wayne and Saturday are both FA, I believe. What if all 3 of them land in the same place for a last ditch title run?

Manning, Wayne and Marshall in Miami sounds like a winner to me.

I think going after someone like Kyle Orton would be a much safer bet, he is much younger(29 years old compared to 35), would cost a lot less financially, and wouldn't require trading draft picks. Though I do want them to draft a QB as well. I know Kyle Orton is not Peyton Manning but it is questionable whether Peyton Manning will be the Manning of old. Last thing they need is another McNabb fiasco.

[kingfc22]

Personally, I think Peyton to the Niners makes the most sense. That's instant contender next year if he's okay to play.

As much as I would want this to happen, I just don't see how they could resign their key FA's, add WR(s) and sign him under the cap. I'd rather resign Smith and throw money at one of the big name WR's.

[DanGarion]

I honestly don't want Peyton on the Niners and always been a big Peyton fan.

[Coffee Warlord]

I think going after someone like Kyle Orton would be a much safer bet, he is much younger(29 years old compared to 35), would cost a lot less financially, and wouldn't require trading draft picks. Though I do want them to draft a QB as well. I know Kyle Orton is not Peyton Manning but it is questionable whether Peyton Manning will be the Manning of old. Last thing they need is another McNabb fiasco.

Heh. Orton's role in life: Replace Rexy no matter where he plays.

[wade moore]

The Peyton thing is going to be very interesting.

This could be a blessing in disguise for him. I don't know what the offseason plans were before his injury, but with Saturday, Wayne, and Garcon all FAs and Peyton due big money, I have no idea what that team was going to do.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

if shanahan wants to keep his job he'll trade for rg3. he won't survive another shitty season at qb with orton or whoever.

it'll make the fans happy. buys shanahan some time. makes too much sense not to happen.

[BillJasper]

if shanahan wants to keep his job he'll trade for rg3. he won't survive another shitty season at qb with orton or whoever.

it'll make the fans happy. buys shanahan some time. makes too much sense not to happen.

But they'll have to give up a boatload to jump over the Browns and into the number two spot.

[Kodos]

Manning to the Dolphins would be a dream come true for me.

[BillJasper]

Manning to the Dolphins would be a dream come true for me.

Join the club. :D

[molson]

It's weird that he came out and said (or, "sources" said), that he'd be willing to sign a contract with no guarantees, as if he's worried about the market. I'm sure he can get a job, but there doesn't seem to be the perfect fit out there. Any team 1-2 years away from winning already had a QB. I guess the 49ers and Jets are closest, but it's hard to see them giving up on Smith and Sanchez. I don't have a great vibe on the Dolphins, but can they contend right away with Manning?

[JediKooter]

Could the Dolphins O-line protect Manning and his neck?

[spleen1015]

I could just be a homer, but Manning makes any team a playoff contender as soon as he signs, assuming he's going to play. I think he is that much of a difference maker.

[JPhillips]

I could just be a homer, but Manning makes any team a playoff contender as soon as he signs, assuming he's going to play. I think he is that much of a difference maker.

Unless he has a head coach or OC that tries to dictate what he's to do. He has to go to a system where he's given more freedom than any other QB in the league.

That's why I don't think the 49ers would work. I can't see Peyton and Harbaugh coexisting. Both of those guys want control.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

But they'll have to give up a boatload to jump over the Browns and into the number two spot.
that's valid. i assume everything this time of year is disinfo and i've read a couple places that the browns are "not sold on rg3" which means they probably are.

[Dutch]

There's still the possibility of Peyton retiring. Otherwise, I'd think Arizona or Seattle would be willing to pick him up off the wire if it got to that.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Wouldn't they be on the hook for the $28.5M roster bonus then? I can't imagine ANY team doing that.

[bulletsponge]

i could see Snyder try to win another offseason by signing Manning

[ColtCrazy]

As much as I want to see Manning in blue one more time, I'm resigning myself to the fact that in all likelihood that it isn't happening. Wherever he ends up instantly becomes my second favorite team next year. I've already warned my wife that I'll be buying a new Manning jersey sometime in April.

Places I would like to see him play? Miami, 49ers, Cardinals would all be interesting spots.

No way he ends up in Tennessee. Can't see him with the Jets sharing a city with Eli. Redskins aren't a strong enough contender IMO, but I wouldn't rule them out.

It'll be an interesting next couple of months.

[Dutch]

Wouldn't they be on the hook for the $28.5M roster bonus then? I can't imagine ANY team doing that.

I think the PR and advertising alone would make it worth the $28.5M pricetag. People are paying $3.5M for a 30-second Super Bowl add. They get this dude for an entire year. Plus, teams have to start spending most of their cap this year...I think.

[miami_fan]

I am not buying the Peyton to Miami talk. IMO it does not make any sense for either party. Besides the obvious health risk, why would Peyton go to a team that is rebuilding. The Dolphins are not a QB away from the Super Bowl and I would think that Peyton's goal is Super Bowl and not just playoffs. From the Dolphins side, are you really turning your entire franchise over to Peyton Manning? I am not saying that Peyton Manning is a bad guy, a cancer or anything like that. To me, if he signs with the Dolphins, the new staff becomes irrelevant. It would be about running an offense that Peyton is comfortable with, signing players that Peyton wants, Everything becomes about how to make Peyton successful as opposed to making the team successful.

Now after saying all this, if Peyton did sign I would not be too upset. Having Peyton Manning around would absolutely be a benefit. I am not sure that Peyton Manning alone makes this Dolphin team a contender. I guess an 0-7 start said more to me about that team than the 6-3 end.

[jbergey22]

http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1493/peyton-manning

Sounds like quite of bit of work is left before he is ready.

Kravitz actually used the phrase "noodle arm" at one point. "But that doesn't mean he never will [have the arm strength] ... or that he won't in a couple of months," Kravitz adds. "This thing is going to take time."
You have to kind of wonder if he will ever get it back. It takes years to train them muscles especially to be has accurate as he was. I just wonder if he can get it back in a few months. Going to be a big risk for a team taking a chance on him. I would think that would sort of limit the interested parties.

[BillJasper]

that's valid. i assume everything this time of year is disinfo and i've read a couple places that the browns are "not sold on rg3" which means they probably are.

They may not be sold on him or they may be simply trying to downplay interest in him so someone like the Redskins don't leapfrog them.

[Ksyrup]

Seems I completely missed the halftime tribute to Joe Theismann.

http://www.yapfiles.ru/files/345748/anigif_enhancedbuzz16576132850829017.gif

[Logan]

Wouldn't they be on the hook for the $28.5M roster bonus then? I can't imagine ANY team doing that.

If he's waived/released soon, I think the team that picks him up would have the same three options that Indy has: pay him the bonus if you think he's ready (doubtful) or try to re-work the contract/bonus in a way that remains beneficial to both parties. If they can't get to an agreement, waive him on March 8th instead of paying the $28.5MM. You're basically getting a jump on the rest of the market who could be fighting over him in free agency.

If that's doable...

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm confused. The NFL doesn't have any guaranteed contracts. So, I thought that if he is released, his contract becomes nullified and any team that he chooses to sign with will have to negotiate a completely new contract.

[Blackadar]

I'm confused. The NFL doesn't have any guaranteed contracts. So, I thought that if he is released, his contract becomes nullified and any team that he chooses to sign with will have to negotiate a completely new contract.

If you claim him from waivers, you pay for his contract. If (in this case WHEN) he clears waivers, then the old deal is dead and you negotiate a new one.

[BillJasper]

I'm confused. The NFL doesn't have any guaranteed contracts. So, I thought that if he is released, his contract becomes nullified and any team that he chooses to sign with will have to negotiate a completely new contract.

Depends if he has to pass through waivers or not...

[Ksyrup]

Damn!



By Ryan Wilson

Peyton Manning's change in fortune has been swift. Prior to the 2011 season, the general perception of what he meant to Indianapolis went something like this: he had singlehandedly saved the Colts from themselves, led them to a Super Bowl title in 2006, and his accomplishments were the currency that helped fund Lucas Oil Stadium.

Now, days removed from Super Bowl XLVI -- hosted in Indianapolis by the way -- Manning has gone from patron saint of the city to public enemy No. 1. Maybe that's a slight exaggeration but not by much.

In the weeks prior to the Giants-Patriots matchup, Manning spoke with the Indianapolis Star's Bob Kravitz about his future with the Colts. The takeaway: Peyton had no intentions of retiring, even if his future wasn't with in Indy.

Owner Jim Irsay fired back, calling Manning "a politician," the two then issued a joint statement professing great love and admiration for one another. And that appeared to be that. Neither side spoke in specifics about their situations during Super Bowl Week … until Thursday evening, when Manning's camp leaked word that Manning had been medically cleared to play. This was news to everyone, including Irsay, who tweeted hours later that "Peyton has not passed our physical nor has he been cleared to play for The Indianapolis Colts."

And it was at that point that the public, which had firmly supported Peyton basically since the moment he was drafted in 1998, began to view the franchise quarterback differently.

During a Wednesday appearance on "The Tony Kornheiser Show," Kravitz talked about the he-said, he-said back-and-forth posturing by both camps and what it means for the future of Peyton and the Colts.

"I think people are starting to sway over to Jim Irsay's side on this," Kravitz told Kornheiser. "… It's such a no-brainer. It's been a no-brainer since they went to 0-13. He could give them money to play football. Andrew Luck has got to play, okay? It's not even about the $35 million anymore. I mean, the guy's arm is a noodle, he can't throw like an NFL quarterback, and by March 8, there's no way of knowing whether he's going to be ready or not."

Wow. "Arm is a noodle" is nowhere near "been medically cleared to play." But that doesn't mean Manning won't be healthy at some point. It's just that nobody knows when.

“I know some of the people that have seen him throw,” Kravitz continued. "They say he’s not throwing like an NFL quarterback yet. That doesn’t mean he never will. This thing is going to take time. Structurally, he’s sound. Structurally, he can take a hit.”

In response to a question from Kornheiser that "Manning hijacked the Super Bowl," Kravitz responded, "I'm quite sure [Peyton] did it deliberately.

"I lost a lot of -- I don't want to say respect for him -- but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not say that his conversation with me was political and calculated, but there's no doubt in my mind that that story breaking Thursday night right around the time every single TV station is doing an exclusive on Andrew Luck (and, it turns out, blog).

"It comes out on Thursday night about six o'clock -- that doesn't come out unless the Peyton Manning camp wants it to come out. They're putting public pressure on Jim Irsay. It was calculated, it was deceptive, I didn't think it was a good time to do it. And, yes, he absolutely stole the Super Bowl. … I don't think there's any doubt that he stole some of the attention away from the Super Bowl.

"Look, that story was going to be there whether he opened his mouth or not, but he had given us every indication that he was going to go underground and only do his Gatorade and DirecTV thing and then shut the hell up," Kravitz said. "And he didn't do that. I thought that that was kind of smarmy. …

"You got Andrew Luck, just start over, I wish they could make the decision today or tomorrow and move on with it. Instead we're just … holding onto something that doesn't really exist."

So, yeah, if it wasn't obvious before, we think it couldn't be clearer now: Peyton's played his last game for the Colts, and Eli was the last Manning to play in Lucas Oil Stadium during the 2011 season.

Now the only question is if the Redskins are still interested in Manning's services. (Obvious answer: of course they are!)

[spleen1015]

I like Kravitz most of the time, but a lot of times when he says something he only does it to stir shit up. This is the same guy who called Tony Dungy a bad father when his son committed suicide.

Ryan Wilson doesn't know WTF he's talking about either. This city is not going to turn against Manning. 90% of Colts fans still believe he'll be wearing a Colts uniform next year. That is evident by all of the calls into local radio shows, etc.

Ok, so maybe the Manning camp released information during Super Bowl week and it was a bad idea. All of the media and everyone but Giants/Patriots fans were more interested in what was happening with Manning more than the Super Bowl anyway.

Regarding Peyton to the Redskins, I wonder if he wants to go there and have to play against his brother twice year.

[Ksyrup]

Aside from having an owner that usually gets what he wants - even when it's not a good idea - I don't know what Washington has that makes it an attractive move for Peyton, at all. They suck. And even if I thought, as Peyton, that I could make a huge difference on offense on that team, doesn't that neuter the head coach, and do I have enough faith in that team's management to believe they can go out and put together the rest of the team to make us playoff contenders? I don't know. Based on their track record, I'd pass.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

manning's a tenured vet. he won't have to go through waivers.

They may not be sold on him or they may be simply trying to downplay interest in him so someone like the Redskins don't leapfrog them.
oh, it's def a bluff. if you've ever had the third pick in a 2 qb draft in fof mp you know how painful it is to trade up.

it's all smoke right now but if i had to guess

colts- luck
rams- kalil
vikes to skins- rg3
cle- somebody moves up for blackmon

[miked]

I don't understand why it takes this long to deal with the Manning issue. Everyone in the world knows the colts ain't paying the 30M bonus and taking monster cap hits if they trade/release him. So why don't the Colts just do the smart thing and cut him now so all the bad press can stop and they can focus on the future of Luck?

[spleen1015]

I don't understand why it takes this long to deal with the Manning issue. Everyone in the world knows the colts ain't paying the 30M bonus and taking monster cap hits if they trade/release him. So why don't the Colts just do the smart thing and cut him now so all the bad press can stop and they can focus on the future of Luck?

Other than the bad press, there's no reason for them to do it right now. They have until March 7th to cut him. I don't see any reason to hurry if I am them.

[Ksyrup]

Considering that Irsay has painted himself into a corner by saying on a couple of occasions that Peyton will be back if healthy, I assume they will wait until early March, have their doctors give him a physical, maybe have him throw, and then release a statement in doctor/lawyer speak that says Peyton has a noodle arm and we're letting him go. They can't really do that until they examine him.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i'd still take a noodle armed peyton over half the qb's in the league.

coincidently, noodle armed peyton is the name of my upcoming bluegrass album.

[JediKooter]

So who wants Vincent Jackson? A top 5 receiver in the game. Looks like the genius that put together 6 non Super Bowl winning teams, is refusing to resign Jackson. So, here you go 49ers. You needed a big play wide receiver, snatch him up before some other team not called the Chargers, signs him.

[Doug5984]

Well shouldn't it be the Saints? It's where all ex-chargers go to really shine.

[Logan]

So who wants Vincent Jackson? A top 5 receiver in the game. Looks like the genius that put together 6 non Super Bowl winning teams, is refusing to resign Jackson. So, here you go 49ers. You needed a big play wide receiver, snatch him up before some other team not called the Chargers, signs him.

As a Niner fan and seemingly continuous VJax fantasy owner, while he seems like he makes all the sense in the world it also makes me nervous. He's so inconsistent, but it's hard to figure out if it's him or the general "WTF?" quality of San Diego.

If Smith is the guy at QB, I don't see it as a skillset match. Not that I'm in love with Desean Jackson, but in terms of both of them being called "big play WRs" I think he would fit better.

[JediKooter]

Well shouldn't it be the Saints? It's where all ex-chargers go to really shine.

That is very true. Sad, but, very very true. Again, just proves that the Chargers are basically the NFLs farm system with AJ "Lord of No Rings" Smith in control of the roster moves.

As a Niner fan and seemingly continuous VJax fantasy owner, while he seems like he makes all the sense in the world it also makes me nervous. He's so inconsistent, but it's hard to figure out if it's him or the general "WTF?" quality of San Diego.

If Smith is the guy at QB, I don't see it as a skillset match. Not that I'm in love with Desean Jackson, but in terms of both of them being called "big play WRs" I think he would fit better.

If you're only looking at him in terms of fantasy numbers, yes, he's inconsistent. If you look at him in reality, he's very consistent. Don't forget, the Chargers also have Antonio Gates, so Jackson isn't always the primary target and may not always get as many passes thrown his way. Then there's also the Norv factor. See, even though he's the head coach, there's times where it's very apparent, that he doesn't remember what players he has on his active roster or on the field at any given time.

With a full off season work out schedule, I think Smith will be alright if they pick up VJ. Desean Jackson is too much of a head case and with Vernon Davis on the team, I could see that locker room becoming unbearable and I don't think Harbaugh would put up with a guy like D. Jackson and his on the field mentality. Never know though, Harbaugh could inspire D. Jackson and those issues may never rear its ugly head. I think for the money for D. Jackson and the potential headaches versus the money for VJ...I'd take VJ.

[BillJasper]

manning's a tenured vet. he won't have to go through waivers.


oh, it's def a bluff. if you've ever had the third pick in a 2 qb draft in fof mp you know how painful it is to trade up.

it's all smoke right now but if i had to guess

colts- luck
rams- kalil
vikes to skins- rg3
cle- somebody moves up for blackmon

Doesn't Cleveland have the ammo though to trade up to the two spot if they really want RGIII?

The Rams want either Kalil or Blackmon and at least one would be available at four if they swapped with Cleveland.

[spleen1015]

Randy Moss unretired today.

I hope he gets TOed.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Manning to the Dolphins would be a dream come true for me.

My fantasy receivers would be overjoyed...Both of them

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Randy Moss unretired today.

he "retired" because no one wanted him.

[molson]

I was just reading about Moss on wiki to remember the timelines of how things went down in 2010 - I wonder if there's another professional athlete who has a 3 paragraph sub-heading entitled, "Lack of effort".

[Blackadar]

So who wants Vincent Jackson? A top 5 receiver in the game. Looks like the genius that put together 6 non Super Bowl winning teams, is refusing to resign Jackson. So, here you go 49ers. You needed a big play wide receiver, snatch him up before some other team not called the Chargers, signs him.

Jackson is a good player, great at times, but not in the top 5. I'd probably take Megatron, Wes Welker, Larry Fitzgerald, Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Mike Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings and Andre Johnson all over VJ and maybe even a guy like Steve Smith (still) or an up-and-comer like Hakeem Nicks.

Still, even in the top 15, he's a helluva talent. I don't understand San Diego letting him walk. Malcolm Floyd hasn't shown anything more than being a reliable #2/#3 guy, Gates is clearly slowing down and Vincent Brown showed promise but nothing that suggests he's ready for the #1 WR role. I wonder if SD is gearing up to make Mike Wallace an offer since he'll be an RFA and it's likely the Steelers won't have the cap space to make him a long-term offer until after the draft. The Chargers would give up the 18th pick, but that may be fine to get a guy like Wallace.

[Blackadar]

Randy Moss unretired today.

I hope he gets TOed.

Without a doubt he will. The last time we saw TO, he could still play even if he's a cancer. I could have seen a team taking a flier on TO because the guy always came to play and was always in great shape. Moss is a cancer whose game has clearly diminished and didn't always come to play. Hence I don't see anyone being interested in Randy Moss, now or in the future.

[JediKooter]

Jackson is a good player, great at times, but not in the top 5. I'd probably take Megatron, Wes Welker, Larry Fitzgerald, Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Mike Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings and Andre Johnson all over VJ and maybe even a guy like Steve Smith (still) or an up-and-comer like Hakeem Nicks.

Still, even in the top 15, he's a helluva talent. I don't understand San Diego letting him walk. Malcolm Floyd hasn't shown anything more than being a reliable #2/#3 guy, Gates is clearly slowing down and Vincent Brown showed promise but nothing that suggests he's ready for the #1 WR role. I wonder if SD is gearing up to make Mike Wallace an offer since he'll be an RFA and it's likely the Steelers won't have the cap space to make him a long-term offer until after the draft. The Chargers would give up the 18th pick, but that may be fine to get a guy like Wallace.

I think he's better than some of the guys you mentioned: Marshall & Bowe, both are too soft, White is getting old and Jennings is real good, but, not better than VJ in my opinion. VJ is a beast, plain and simple. I like Malcom Floyd, but, at times is frustrating and gets hurt. Nice big hands though. I couldn't figure Brown out, he's got talent, but, it could also be a Norv Turner thing like they did with Kasim Osgood. I was hoping Crayton would have a career revival in San Diego, but, that didn't happen.

To answer your question as to why the Chargers will let him walk...AJ Smith's ego. He'd rather prove that he thinks he's right than what's right for the team. As for Wallace, I would be shocked if the Chargers went after him. Again, this all on AJ Smith. He refuses to play the free agent market other than to fill backup slots.

All that being said, unless a team is just stock full of wide receivers or not have the cap room, they would be stupid not to make play for VJ.

[miami_fan]

Randy Moss does not make this announcement unless someone has at least offered a shot at offseason workouts, right?

[tucker rocky]

Denver can sign RM and TO, I'm sure TT could make them born again superstars. :lol:

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Randy Moss does not make this announcement unless someone has at least offered a shot at offseason workouts, right?
it's a feeble attempt by his agent to drum up interest. it's a deep wr draft (allegedly) so i'd put his chances of playing again at next to nil. the only team i could fathom giving him a sniff would be the ravens.

[JediKooter]

it's a feeble attempt by his agent to drum up interest. it's a deep wr draft (allegedly) so i'd put his chances of playing again at next to nil. the only team i could fathom giving him a sniff would be the ravens.

49ers? They need some help in that department. Not sure if Harbaugh would put up with Moss' tendency to quit during a game though.

[Chubby]

NFL - Plenty of (cap) room to improve - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7570116/nfl-plenty-cap-room-improve)

The numbers are in.

One of the new parts of the NFL collective bargaining agreement is the ability of teams to roll over remaining cap room into the next season. The 2011 season finished with $320 million of remaining cap room. Thirty teams carried over $301.78 million of unused cap money to give the 32 teams approximately $711 million of combined room as they start to prepare for the 2012 season.

Any questions?
Have a question for John Clayton? Connect with him here.

The 2011 salary cap was $120.375 million, and the 2012 ceiling is expected to be close. The exact number is calculated based on revenues and should be available in the next week or two.

The Houston Texans and San Diego Chargers didn't have enough remaining room to push money over into 2012, so Houston has $3.3 million of cap space and San Diego has $9.2 million.

The Jacksonville Jaguars didn't spend $31 million of cap room in 2011, so they now have $45 million of room. The Kansas City Chiefs have $62.995 million after budgeting $24.014 million from the 2011 season. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers, thanks to $23.519 million of carryover cap money, have the second-most cap space with $60.496 million. The Cincinnati Bengals moved over $15 million from last year and have $60 million to spend. Dan Snyder of the Washington Redskins has plenty of room to get quarterback and receiver help, thanks to $47.56 million of cap space. The 2011 playoff teams in good shape are the Denver Broncos ($50.735 million of cap room), San Francisco 49ers ($39.33 million), Atlanta Falcons ($30.6 million) and New England Patriots ($20 million). To get to the $50 million mark, the Broncos carried over $26 million of unused cap.

Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13. They are the Pittsburgh Steelers, who have redone three contracts to be $11.7 million over, the Oakland Raiders ($11 million over), the Carolina Panthers ($9.6 million over) and the New York Giants ($7.3 million over).

[Chubby]

I don't remember hearing much about this during the lockout but this could be huge, was this "snuck in"?

[cartman]

I don't remember hearing much about this during the lockout but this could be huge, was this "snuck in"?

It is fairly complicated, but this is tied to the "cap floor". In the first years of the deal, the teams in the NFL had to spend at least 99% of the cap, and there is no cap floor in 2011 and 2012. To allow teams to rollover theoretically increases the total amount that makes it to the players, and helps them hit the 99% over two years, thus reducing any amounts below the 99% they would have to distribute back to the players.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

I don't remember hearing much about this during the lockout but this could be huge, was this "snuck in"?
huh, me either. weird

edit: cartman explained
49ers? They need some help in that department. Not sure if Harbaugh would put up with Moss' tendency to quit during a game though.
i can't see it, but who knows. harbaughs are like magical woodland creatures.

i like josh morgan but crabtree is a fucking hole.

[JediKooter]

i can't see it, but who knows. harbaughs are like magical woodland creatures.

i like josh morgan but crabtree is a fucking hole.

I can't see it either, but, never know in the wacky world of the NFL.

I'm with you on that. Crabtree is made of broken glass and balsa wood.

[JPhillips]

This offseason will be a big test for the Bengals. If MB wants to he can set the team up for three or more years of contention. They have one of the youngest teams in the league and they can sign as many of their FAs as they want as none of them will be a big money guy. They'll have probably ten picks in the draft with three of the first fifty-three, and their holes are in places where the draft is deep.

All MB has to do is drop some money on a couple of FAs and the Bengals will look good for a few years. We'll see this year how much influence Marvin really has.

[bulletsponge]

This offseason will be a big test for the Bengals. If MB wants to he can set the team up for three or more years of contention. They have one of the youngest teams in the league and they can sign as many of their FAs as they want as none of them will be a big money guy. They'll have probably ten picks in the draft with three of the first fifty-three, and their holes are in places where the draft is deep.

All MB has to do is drop some money on a couple of FAs and the Bengals will look good for a few years. We'll see this year how much influence Marvin really has.

so.... your counting on Brown to do the smart thing :popcorn:

[DanGarion]

I didn't catch anyone talking about the new Thursday night, not on NFL Network games next year. Did we discuss that already?

[spleen1015]

I didn't catch anyone talking about the new Thursday night, not on NFL Network games next year. Did we discuss that already?

I heard they were adding Thursday night games. I just assumed they would be on NFL Network.

Peyton Watch 2012, dun dun dun!

Irsay came out today and said he would welcome Peyton back, but it would have to rework his contract. So, basically it is all up to Peyton on what happens....

[DataKing]

No more Jaws on MNF

ESPN Removes Ron Jaworski From Monday Night Football (http://ht.ly/95J5c)

Thank goodness.

[JPhillips]

so.... your counting on Brown to do the smart thing :popcorn:

Ay, there's the rub.

It sure seemed that Marvin had much more influence last year with the free agent signings, the decision to draft Dalton rather than Mallet, and the Ocho Cinco and Palmer trades. If MB is really giving Marvin more authority there's reason for hope.

We'll find out in the next two months.

[JPhillips]

No more Jaws on MNF

ESPN Removes Ron Jaworski From Monday Night Football (http://ht.ly/95J5c)

Thank goodness.

I bet I won't be the only one that reads that as, "No More Jews on MNF".

[DataKing]

Reading comprehension FTW.

[Easy Mac]

I bet I won't be the only one that reads that as, "No More Jews on MNF".

That was the headline 4 years ago.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Curious how other teams/fans see Mike Wallace.

He was great the first 8 games of the year...and very average the 2nd. There is some faction of Steelers fan who believe Antonio Brown is the better WR...and he's an RFA next season.

Steelers are saying they are not likely to franchise Wallace, which would cost $9M. Pittsburgh already about $12M over the cap-- though that money is easily identifiable: cutting Ward, Aaron Smith, one of James Farrior/Larry Foote, and Chris Kemoeatu.

Only placing the a 1st round tender on Wallace makes him a prime target for someone like the Patriots, who have 2 1sts this year.


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_783071.html


"We all know that it is a business, and you have certain things you have to handle," Wallace said. "So if I have to go elsewhere, you know Pittsburgh will always be in my heart, but I have to do what I have to do."
Wallace might command strong interest when free agency begins March 13, largely because of the new collective bargaining agreement.
In past years, franchise tags were rarely used because of the high cost of signing another team's restricted free agent -- first- and third-round picks. Under the new CBA, the most a team can receive is a first-round pick.
Teams with late-round picks like San Francisco (30th) and New England (31st) may be willing to trade a first-round pick for Wallace. The Steelers have the right to match any offer

[stevew]

I like Wallace and they are playing with fire by letting him go. I suppose they could take the pick and sign someone else if they could get someone in that 5-6M/Year range(Meachem?) People who think that Brown is better need a reality check. We may as well monitor the Moss situation as well.

[Chief Rum]

I like Wallace and they are playing with fire by letting him go. I suppose they could take the pick and sign someone else if they could get someone in that 5-6M/Year range(Meachem?) People who think that Brown is better need a reality check. We may as well monitor the Moss situation as well.

I like Wallace, too, and besides, the Steelers need BOTH Wallace and Brown now, with Ward gone. The running game isn't as strong as it used to be, so you need targets for Big Ben.

[Kodos]

Gotta love it. New website manningtomiami dot com and a billboard along I-95 in Miami with a picture of Manning in Dolphins garb. Keep it up, Dolfans!

Peyton Manning: South Florida billboard part of effort to bring quarterback to Miami Dolphins - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/sfl-peyton-manning-miami-billboard-dolphins-20120223,0,3832737.story)

[oykib]

No more Jaws on MNF

ESPN Removes Ron Jaworski From Monday Night Football (http://ht.ly/95J5c)

Thank goodness.

Really? You like news even with the fact that we're going to be getting even more Gruden out of the deal? I greatly prefer Jaworski.

[Fidatelo]

Really? You like news even with the fact that we're going to be getting even more Gruden out of the deal? I greatly prefer Jaworski.

I can't tell their voices apart, so this will make almost no difference to me.

[DataKing]

Jaworski was great at first, but he has really begun to grate on my nerves lately. Mostly because he enunciates every single sentence....the exact same way...

:banghead:

[Grover]

Jaws is so much better as a studio analyst breaking down tape than he is as an analyst during games.

Gruden has absolutely got to go. Can't someone just offer him like $10 mil to be their coach. Please?

[DeToxRox]

So LaRon Landry huh?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/dc-sports-bog/StandingArt/landrygiant0212.jpg?uuid=yzo4gF5BEeGaOCcdGz7-jw

[Logan]

I think the other pic that was circulated was even worse. Best of luck bro.

[wade moore]

Maybe less time lifting, more time practicing covering guys and wrapping up on a tackle.

[Ksyrup]

How the hell can you wrap up on a tackle looking like that? I bet he can't hug a broomstick.

[wade moore]

How the hell can you wrap up on a tackle looking like that? I bet he can't hug a broomstick.


Have you watched him play? If so, this is a rhetorical question.

[Ksyrup]

He plays for the Redskins right? The answer is no, I've never seen him play.

[B & B]

Jaws is great at breaking down playcalling on film. So yeah, hes better at that than color but Gruden?

Gruden is/has always been so damn PC during the broadcasts thats its laughable. Its as if he walks on eggshells and cant make a negative statement about a player or organization for fear that they might not consider hiring him in the future.

His pregame interviews in the bus are just a stopwatch on when he will say

"You know what , I LOVE ..........(fill in the blank for the interviewed player)
and they are as generic as they come. I love the way Marshawn Lynch runs between the tackles. I love the way Tom Brady throws a spiral. I love the way Darell Revis plays the ball.

It happens every single interview, then at least a few more times during the game itself. There should be a Jon "I love" Gruden drinking game.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Does Andrew Luck remind anyone else of this guy?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GGAg16fJ8nA/TOsst2som6I/AAAAAAAABEs/rwI52OCgV5E/s1600/hm_stanley.jpg

[spleen1015]

No.

When he had the full beard going, he did look like a caveman though.

[wade moore]

He plays for the Redskins right? The answer is no, I've never seen him play.
Yes, he is.

[Kodos]

Yeah, it would be nice if broadcaster Gruden was a little more like fiery Coach Gruden. Still, he doesn't bother me like he does others.

[Ksyrup]

More changes may be coming on overtime, replay | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/24/more-changes-may-be-coming-on-overtime-replay/)

[bhlloy]

RG3 measures in at well over 6'2. Probably just locked himself in to the top 4 unless he falls over in the 40 or can't complete a pass in his pro day

[Racer]

RG3 measures in at well over 6'2. Probably just locked himself in to the top 4 unless he falls over in the 40 or can't complete a pass in his pro day

And easily the odds on favorite to go #2 overall now (i.e. the Rams will be get a great offer for their pick).

[stevew]

RG3 will go #2 barring an act of god.

[bhlloy]

An act of god meaning making him 2 inches shorter than he really is like everyone seemed to expect? :p

But yeah, I agree with this. Interested to see who will give up the farm to get him at #2. Rams in a really nice spot

[Racer]

RG3 will go #2 barring an act of god.

I think the only way he doesn't is if the Rams decide that Matt Kahil is a once in a five to ten years tackle prospect (along the lines of a Jake Long). Then there is a chance he might slip to three. I haven't heard anyone say that about him though. But yeah, if I had to guess I'd say RG3 has a 90% to 95% chance of going #2 overall. Of course that is pure speculation on my part.

[spleen1015]

I think I want the Colts to take RGIII now.

[bhlloy]

In other "I'm bored and stuff is going on" news Alshon Jeffery weighs in at 216. If he runs an acceptable 40 probably just made himself a lot of money

[Ksyrup]

OTOH, Osweiler's only 6'6 7/8", not 6'8". LIARS.

[mckerney]

I think the only way he doesn't is if the Rams decide that Matt Kahil is a once in a five to ten years tackle prospect (along the lines of a Jake Long). Then there is a chance he might slip to three. I haven't heard anyone say that about him though. But yeah, if I had to guess I'd say RG3 has a 90% to 95% chance of going #2 overall. Of course that is pure speculation on my part.

Oh how I want him to slip to #3 and have Rick Spielman actually make a good decision for once.

[CU Tiger]

In other "I'm bored and stuff is going on" news Alshon Jeffery weighs in at 216. If he runs an acceptable 40 probably just made himself a lot of money


Heard from his trainer today he will not run...bcause he is not certain he can break 4.6 which would relegate him to 4th round. WHen is the alst time a supposed "top tier" wr prospect refused to run the 40 at the combine?

[MacroGuru]

Heard from his trainer today he will not run...bcause he is not certain he can break 4.6 which would relegate him to 4th round. WHen is the alst time a supposed "top tier" wr prospect refused to run the 40 at the combine?

Blackmon refused as well..says his hammy has a boo boo.

[stevew]

Oh how I want him to slip to #3 and have Rick Spielman actually make a good decision for once.

Vikings open to trading down, but not too far | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/140246273.html)

Vikings open to trading down, but not too far

Vikings General Manager Rick Spielman wants everyone to know he'll seriously consider trading the No. 3 pick, open to moving back if the right deal materializes.

[B & B]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kAR6a10AOiY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Ksyrup]

<S>@</S>JoelThorman (https://twitter.com/#!/JoelThorman): Rough Combine for Vontaze Burfict. Bottom of the LB rankings in a number of drills

<S>@</S>TomFornelli (https://twitter.com/#!/TomFornelli): Vontaze Burfict's 40 time would have been much faster if they'd placed someone for him to hit late at the end of the 40.

[BillJasper]

Burfict may be better off going to Canada for a couple years and concentrate on cleaning up his act.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Mostly relevant only to the Seahawks and/or whoever might have been considering him as an FA pickup.

NFL free agent arrested in Atlanta for marijuana *| ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/nfl-free-agent-arrested-1365056.html)

Free agent linebacker Leroy Hill was arrested by police in Atlanta for possession of less than an ounce of marijuana.

According to a statement from Atlanta police on Monday, Hill was arrested early Saturday after officers were called to an Atlanta condominium following a complaint about a marijuana odor.

Officers say they confirmed the smell, obtained a search warrant and found partially smoked blunts and marijuana residue inside.

The Georgia native has spent his entire NFL career with the Seattle Seahawks.

This isn't Hill's first run in with off-field problems. He was arrested in January 2009 on a marijuana-possession charge in Georgia and was given 12 months of probation. He also was arrested on a domestic violence charge in a Seattle suburb in April 2010.

Hill played at Baldwin High in Milledgeville and Clemson.

[bhlloy]

Burfict proving that some people just are that stupid. Right now I'd be surprised if he even makes a team out of training camp. Just unreal.

Here's 20 million dollars, all you have to do is show up for college for 3 years, not get fat and not get arrested. Can't manage it.

[Racer]

I did one of these back in January. I enjoy putting them together so I thought I would do a post combine version. I projected top 10 trades only. I think anything more then that would be overkill and probably confusing.

2012 NFL Mock Draft 2.0
1st Round
1.Indianapolis Colts (2-14) – Andrew Luck, QB – Stanford
It looks like the Colts are all but a lock to part ways with Peyton Manning between the March 3rd season ticket deadline and when his $28 million dollar signing bonus due on March 8th. The media clash in January between Manning and Colts owner Jim Irsay as well everything the Colts’ have done suggest Luck and not Manning will be under center next season.

Projected Trade: Washington Redskins trade the 1.06 pick, 2.07 pick, 3.06 pick, and their 2013 1st round pick to the St. Louis Rams for the 1.02 pick.
The Rams have said they are dealing the 2nd overall pick. Throw out the Trade Value Chart out the window because a prospect with RGIII’s buzz is going to go for more than what the chart says the 2nd overall pick is worth. This is one rumor on what the Redskins are willing to give up.

2. Washington Redskins (from St. Louis Rams (2-14))** – Robert Griffin III, QB – Baylor
The Browns have more draft assets but Dan Synder has never shied away from big moves. He also has a head coach in Mike Shanahan who seems to prefer QBs that are best when they’re on the run - John Elway, Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler, and a failed attempt with Donovan McNabb.

3. Minnesota Vikings (3-13) – Matt Kalil, OT – USC
The Vikings thought they had a special tackle when they took Bryant McKinnie with the 7th overall pick back in 2002. However, McKinnie came into camp this past season fat and out of shape. He was subsequently released. If Kalil lives up the hype he could really help improve the pass protection of a line that gave up 49 sacks in 2011.

Projected Trade: Cleveland Browns trade the 1.04 pick to the Kansas City Chiefs for the 1.11 and 2.12 picks.
Even if they don’t get what the trade value chart says the 4th overall pick is worth I think there is a strong possibility the Browns deal this pick for four reasons: 1.) Mike Holmgren doesn’t like investing this high of picks in WRs. 2.) RBs rarely go this high anymore. 3.) The Browns are already strong at CB and DT. 4.) They have a recent history of trading down.

4. Kansas City Chiefs (from Cleveland Browns (4-12)) ** – Dontari Poe, NT/DT - Memphis
Poe was projected as a late 1st to early 2nd round pick less than a week ago. Then he blew of the combine by demonstrating incredible strength and speed for a 350 pounder. He will likely draw strong interest from both 4-3 teams to play DT and 3-4 teams to play NT now especially since Michael Brockers was awful in combine drills while Devon Still fails to provide the upside that Brockers and Poe provide. Chiefs GM Scott Pioli has a history of selecting defensive linemen in the first round. If he wants Poe he’s going to have to trade up for him because he isn’t going to fall to the eleventh overall pick.

5. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (4-12) – Morris Claiborne, CB - LSU
The Buccaneers gave up a league high 494 points this season. Claiborne could help slow down the Saints, Falcons, and Panthers passing games.

6. St. Louis Rams (from Washington Redskins (5-11) ) **– Riley Reiff, OT - Iowa
Left tackle Roger Safford gave up just 3.5 sacks as a rookie in 2010 but in 2011 he gave up 10.5 sacks in nine games when the Rams moved to a less tackle friendly system. The Rams offensive line as a whole gave up a league high 55 sacks this season. New Rams head coach Jeff Fisher never really had a receiver that was a focal part of his offense while he was with the Titans/Oilers. He did select two receivers in the first round during his 15 years with the Titans/Oilers though.

7. Jacksonville Jaguars (5-11) – Justin Blackmon, WR – Oklahoma State
Jacksonville featured the league’s worst passing attack this season managing just 2,179 total passing yards. Blackmon has a good chance of being available here because it usually takes a receiver bigger and taller than Blackmon to go in the top five. In fact, the last receiver 6’2” or shorter that was taken in the top six was the 5’11” Peter Warrick back in 2000.

Projected Trade: Miami Dolphins trade the 1.08 pick to the New York Jets for the 1.16 and 2.15 picks.
The N.Y. Jets have shown a willingness to trade up in the past when they traded up to the 5th overall pick in 2009 to select Mark Sanchez. They were also a serious player in the Nnamdi Asomugha sweepstakes despite already having Darrelle Revis.

8. New York Jets (from (Miami Dolphins (6-10))** - Trent Richardson, RB - Alabama
The Jets averaged just 3.8 yards per carry this season and finished 22nd in total rushing yards. One can’t really say Richardson would fall to 16th as another team with a solid RB already could take Richardson if they think he is a special talent. The Vikings didn’t hesitate to take Adrian Peterson in 2007 despite already having a perfectly adequate back in Chester Taylor.

9. Carolina Panthers (6-10) - Devon Still, DT – Penn State
The Panthers could draft Still whose stock has been on the rise after a strong senior season in hopes of improving a defense that gave up the 6th most points in the league, the 8th most total rushing yards, and 4.6 ypc.

10. Buffalo Bills (6-10) – Quinton Coples, DE/DT – North Carolina
The Bills’ defense tied for the third fewest sacks in the league while also giving up the fifth most rushing yards and ypc. Coples might be able to help a defense in dire need of overhaul against both the run and pass. However, Coples could go later then this since scouts are apparently concerned that Coples took plays off in 2011 and that he also played not to get hurt.

11. Cleveland Browns ((from Kansas City Chiefs (7-9)) ** - Michael Floyd, WR – Notre Dame
The Browns’ defense managed to give up the fifth fewest total points in the league despite playing with an anemic offense that scored the third fewest points in the league. GM Mike Holmgren has to add something on offense this offseason if he wants his offense to have a pulse next season. He could invest a 1st rounder in a receiver. I just don't see it being the 4th overall pick.

12. Seattle Seahawks (7-9) * - Melvin Ingram, DE/OLB – South Carolina
Seahawks coach has spent two out of his three first round picks the past two years on offensive linemen. Carroll may look to improve his other line through the draft this year and try to improve a pass defense that finished 19th in the league in total sacks.

13. Arizona Cardinals (8-8) – Jonathan Martin, OT – Stanford
The Cardinals surrendered 54 sacks this season. Only the St. Louis Rams gave up more sacks. Providing Kobb with better pass protection might help him rebound from a very disappointing 2011 season.

14. Dallas Cowboys (8-8) – Dre Kirkpatrick, CB – Alabama
Prince Amukamara was considered a top 10 prospect in 2011 by many but still fell to the Giants with the 19th pick. Kirkpatrick could be in for a similar fall especially given his positive test for marijuana this offseason. The Cowboys desperately need to upgrade at CB so they could take a chance on Kirkpatrick just as they did with Dez Bryant’s character issues two years ago.

15. Philadelphia Eagles (8-8) – Fletcher Cox, DT – Mississippi State
The Eagles had a shaky linebacker unit this season but the Eagles have never selected a LB in the first round while Andy Reid has been coach and they haven’t selected one in the first two rounds since 2001. The Eagles are no stranger to selecting defensive linemen having selected one with five out of their ten first round picks under Reid.

16. Miami Dolphins (from (N.Y. Jets (8-8)) ** – Ryan Tannehill, QB – Texas A&M
If the Dolphins lose out on the RGIII sweepstakes, they may look to trade back in the 1st draft and draft Tannehill instead. Current offensive coordinator Mike Sherman actually was Tannehill’s head coach in college and could influence the Dolphins to take a chance on Tannehil if they lose out on RGIII

17. Cincinnati Bengals (from Raiders (8-8)) – David DeCastro, G – Stanford
The Bengals run game managed 3.9 yards per carry this past season. DeCastro ran a very slow 40 time even for an offensive lineman but current Bengals' offensive tackles Andrew Whitworth and Andre Smith are slow for linemen.

18. San Diego Chargers (8-8) – Luke Kuechily, ILB – Boston College
2011 Starting ILB Takeo Spikes is 35 years old while the other starter Donald Butler was apparently out of position a lot according to the USA Today team reports. Many mocks have the Chargers selecting an OLB here but Antwan Barnes had 11 sacks in 2011. Their other OLB Shaun Philips had a disappointing season this year but had 11 sacks just a year ago.

19. Chicago Bears (8-8) – Coby Fleener, TE - Stanford
Former Bears OC Mike Martz had no need for a TE in the offense he ran so the Bears traded away Greg Olsen for a 3rd round draft pick last year. The Bears were supposedly interested in trying to sign Jermichael Finley but he resigned with the Packers before he hit the open market. Fleener has been compared to Rob Gronkowski and he could provide Cutler with the big target he’s been missing since he had Brandon Marshall in Denver.

20. Tennessee Titans (9-7) – Michael Brockers, DT - LSU
The Titans finished 31st in sacks and gave up 4.5 ypc this season so a DE or DT would make sense with this pick. Brockers has elite measurables but performed horribly in every single drill at the combine which will likely cause him to fall out of the top ten picks.

21. Cincinnati Bengals (9-7) – Janoris Jenkins, CB – North Alabama
If it were not for his off the field issues, Jenkins would likely be a more sought after prospect. The Bengals, however, need a corner and have never shied away from drafting players with red flags. It’s a match made in heaven.

22. Cleveland Browns (from Falcons (10-6) ) – Zach Brown, OLB – North Carolina[/B]
The Browns finished 30th in the NFL is rushing yards and 4.4 yards per carry. One position they could stand to improve at on defense is outside linebacker. Brown is a bit raw but has elite athleticism.

23. Detroit Lions (10-6) – Nick Perry, DE/OLB - USC
The Lions mantra under GM Martin Mayhew has been to select the best player available. Kyle Vanden Bosch was a starter at defensive end in 2011 for the Lions but turns 34 in November. The Lions could select his eventual replacement in this draft given the depth of talent there appears to be at defensive end this year in the draft.


[B]24. Pittsburgh Steelers (12-4) – Cordy Glenn, G – Alabama
The Steelers gave up 42 sacks which was the 9th most in the league and finished in the middle of the pack in total rushing yards and yards per carry. Consequently, they could select an interior linemen such as Glenn to bolster their offensive attack.

25. Denver Broncos (8-8) – David Wilson, RB – Virginia Tech
Willis McGahee is 30 years old while Knowshon Moreno seemingly fell out of favor with head coach John Fox and then tore his ACL in relief for McGahee. John Fox put a heavy emphasis on the run during his time in Carolina and may look to upgrade the position in Denver by drafting a RB like Wilson.

26. Houston Texans (10-6) – Kendall Wright, WR - Baylor
Neither Kevin Walter nor Jacoby Jones has ever blossomed into an upper end #2 WR despite being #2 and #3 on the depth chart for years. Wright could tumble to the end of the first round or even second round after running a very disappointing time in the 40 at the combine.

27. New England Patriots (from Saints (13-3)) – Courtney Upshaw, OLB/DE - Alabama
Both of New England’s starting OLBs had solid seasons this year. However, neither one was a true force so it is a position the Patriots could potentially target in this year’s draft. Upshaw could potentially play 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB and could be quite the steal at 27th overall. T

28. Green Bay Packers (15-1) – Whitney Mericlus, OLB/DE - Illinois
Teams were able to double team Clay Mathews this season due to the lack of a threat the Packers had at the outside linebacker position opposite of him. Mericlus, who led the NCAA in sacks with 16 this past season could potentially be that threat.

29. Baltimore Ravens (12-4) – Don’ta Hightower, ILB – Alabama
Ray Lewis turns 37 in May so the Ravens can’t expect him to play much longer. If Hightower or Kuechily is available when they are on the clock they will have to seriously consider taking whoever is available.

30. San Francisco 49ers (13-3) – Jerel Worthy, DE/DT – Michigan State
The 49ers are a team that had few weaknesses this season besides WR and possibly QB. It may difficult for San Francisco to find a difference maker at either of those positions with this pick so they could draft the eventual replacement for Justin Smith who turns 33 in September.

31. New England Patriots (13-3) – Mark Barron, S - Alabama
New England’s safeties struggled this season. Barron, who is considered to be the best safety in this class, could fall to the Patriots 31st overall pick.

32. N.Y. Giants (9-7) – Mike Adams, OT – Ohio State
A team doesn’t win the Super Bowl if it has many holes. Giants could stand to upgrade at guard or tackle though. Adams' stock was on the rise until he was only able to complete 19 reps on the bench at the combine. As a result, Adams could find himself back in the 2nd round which is where he was being projected prior to the Senior Bowl.

2nd Round
1. St. Louis Rams – Mohamed Sanu, WR - Rutgers
2. Indianapolis Colts – Andre Branch, OLB/DE – Clemson
3. Minnesota Vikings – Alfonso Denard, CB/S - Nebraska
4. Tampa Bay Buccaneers – Lavonte David, OLB - Nebraska
5. Cleveland Browns – Doug Martin, RB – Boise State
6. Jacksonville Jaguars – Stephon Gilmore, CB – South Carolina
7. St. Louis Rams (from Washington Redskins)** - Lamar Miller, RB – Miami (Fla.)
8. Carolina Panthers - Alshon Jeffery, WR – South Carolina
9. Buffalo Bills –Stephen Hill, WR – Georgia Tech
10. Miami Dolphins - Brandon Washington, G – Miami (Fla.)
11. Seattle Seahawks – Brandon Thompson, DT - Clemson
12. Cleveland Browns (from Kansas City Chiefs) ** – Dwayne Allen, TE - Clemson
13. Dallas Cowboys – Kendall Reyes, DE/DT – Connecticut
14. Philadelphia Eagles – Bobby Wagner, OLB – Utah State
15. Miami Dolphins (from New York Jets) ** – Zebrie Sanders, OT - Florida State
16. New England Patriots (From Oakland Raiders) – Leonard Johnson, CB – Iowa State
17. San Diego Chargers – Harrison Smith, S – Notre Dame
18. Chicago Bears – Peter Konz, C – Wisconsin
19. Philadelphia Eagles (from Arizona Cardinals) – Rueben Randle, WR - LSU
20. Tennessee Titans – Vinny Curry, DE - Marshall
21. Cincinnati Bengals – Nick Toon, WR - Wisconsin
22. Detroit Lions – Kelechi Osemele, G – Iowa State
23. Atlanta Falcons – Ronnell Lewis, OLB - Oklahoma
24. Pittsburgh Steelers – Trumaine Johnson, CB - Montana
25. Denver Broncos – Chase Minnifield, CB - Virginia
26. Houston Texans – George Iloka, S – Boise State
27. New Orleans Saints – Chandler Jones, DE/OLB – Syracuse
28. Green Bay Packers – Chris Polk, RB - Washington
29. Baltimore Ravens – Ben Jones, C - Georgia
30. San Francisco 49ers – Orson Charles, TE - Georgia
31. New England Patriots – Billy Winn, DE – Boise State
32. New York Giants – Sean Spence, OLB – Miami (Fla.)

** - Picks projected to be traded

[Lathum]

I don't think there is any way the Rams pass up Blackmon at 6

[Matthean]

The Lions OL is much older than their DL is.

[mckerney]

Ugh, what a terrible year to be picking third. Why couldn't Ponder have stayed healthy so the Vikings could have lost to the Redskins? :(

[Dutch]

Blackmon has a good chance of being available here because it usually takes a receiver bigger and taller than Blackmon to go in the top five. In fact, the last receiver 6’2” or shorter that was taken in the top six was the 5’11” Peter Warrick back in 2000.



Good stuff.

[bhlloy]

Some good stuff in there. I don't think Perry will go to a traditional 4-3 team like the Lions. He'll either be a rush LB in a 3-4, he'll play for a team that runs a lot of hybrid fronts (New England) or a team that utilizes smaller rushers on every down (Indy, Philly)

I think San Diego is the perfect fit, especially after his combine performance.

Also it's Kalil not Kahil...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Idle hands ..

Report: 2 women fight over Falcons' Turner *| ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/sports/report-2-women-fight-1366522.html)

A woman who told police she is the mother of two children fathered by Falcons running back Michael Turner was involved in a knock-down-drag-out with the player's new girlfriend at his mansion Monday, according to TMZ.The entertainment website, citing a Georgia police report from an unnamed jurisdiction, said mom Rasheeda Walker showed up at Turner's mansion and was confronted by his latest flame, a woman identified as Elizabeth Delacruz.

Walker, who said she’s pregnant with Turner’s third child, told police she wanted to talk to the player about child No. 3 and to ask him why he refused to see her and the kids, according to TMZ.

Instead, Walker said, Delacruz confronted her at the front door, wielding a golf club and reminding Walker, “You at my house now, (expletive-that-rhymes-with-rich),” TMZ reported.

Delacruz disputed Walker's account and told police Walker sneaked into the home through an unlocked door and that is when she confronted the woman.

Both women slugged it out in the mansion's front yard, which is where police found them, both with scratches and minor head wounds, TMZ reported. The entertainment site said Turner was the one who broke up the fight.

Neither woman wanted to press charges, TMZ reported, but Walker was issued a criminal trespass warning and advised to stay away.

[Bigsmooth]

Goddam Racer, that is a thorough mock! Well done. I agree with the Hawks grabbing Ingram. Many insiders are saying they will be at the head of the Mario Williams pack so that may change some things if they land him.

[Izulde]

Tannehill to the Dolphins would make me :(

[JPhillips]

DeCastro and Jenkins would be a great first round for the Bengals. I'd rather they fill the RB in Rd2. They really need a veteran WR for the #2 as I think Shipley is currently the longest tenured WR on the team.

[Thomkal]

I think you have it right on with my beloved Cards pick-they need OLine help desperately. I think the main reason Kevin Kolb struggled so much and then got injured last season was that he was running for his life so much. Its likely they pick a receiver in the next round as neither of the projected #2 receivers last season showed they could handle the job on a regular basis.

Great job Racer

[Coffee Warlord]

No way the Bears take a TE in the 1st round, IMO.

[MacroGuru]

I think you are right on with the Bills, they have been talking about taking Coples.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Good stuff, Racer. Keep 'em coming!

[Racer]

Tannehill to the Dolphins would make me :(

I think it may just be a matter of whether they're willing to outbid the Redskins for the #2 overall pick. From what I've read online, the teams interested in trading up are the Redskins, Rams, Browns, Seahawks, and one mystery team you wouldn't expect. The Browns reportedly are more tentative about trading up then the rest of the teams while the Seahawks may have a difficult time outbidding the Redskins and Dolphins from the 12 spot. Unless the mystery team is Tampa Bay, Minnesota, or Jacksonville you have to figure they're going to have a hard time outbidding the Redskins and Dolphins as well. I could be wrong but I think the RGIII sweepstakes comes down to Washington and Miami. Washington has Dan Snyder though and he may be willing to outbid whatever Miami is willing to bid.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think and hope the mystery team is the Eagles.

[Kodos]

The Dolphins have said they aren't interested in trading a lot of picks to move up. For whatever that is worth.

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2012/02/miami-dolphins-whats-robert-griffin-iii-worth.html

[stevew]

I read something hilarious about the Dolphins. In the past 7 years or so, they have spent 5 2nd round picks on QBs. Hanne, White, Beck, Culpepper and Feeley.

[Kodos]

Replacing Marino has been... problematic.

[bulletsponge]

The Dolphins have said they aren't interested in trading a lot of picks to move up. For whatever that is worth.

Miami Dolphins: What’s Robert Griffin III worth? – Miami Dolphins – Sun-Sentinel (http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2012/02/miami-dolphins-whats-robert-griffin-iii-worth.html)

in NFL draft talk, that means they will trade away all their picks to move up

[Honolulu_Blue]

This could be a very ugly off season for the Lions. For the first time in ages they actually have some RFA's and UFA's worth trying to keep, but very little cap space to try and keep them with thanks to a few years of drafting in the top 3 (Stafford, Suh and Johnson) before the new CBA kicked in.

It will be a real test for Mayhew and company to not only improve on last year, but to try and maintain the level of success.

[cartman]

The Steelers released Hines Ward.

[stevew]

I can't imagine Ward will stick with anyone else this year. But good for him if he does. He's basically a 4th or 5th WR at this point who can't play special teams. Maybe Zona will give him a shot, as they love Steeler retreads. They were still playing Porter and Haggans last year I think.

[B & B]

About a week and a half ago, I got some 'news' that the Chefs were gonna make a push for Peyton. At that time, one of my outs had a prop bet on it and KC was +2000 to be his team on Aug 5th. Decided to mull it over a day and they havent put it back up since, so I missed out.


Peyton hasnt been released yet, and theres no allowed contact from any team other than Indy until that happens. If he ends up there Im gonna be real ass chapped about that 4k that wasnt picked up.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Drew Brees is apparently not liking what the Saints are offering & would be PISSED if franchised. I'm wondering if he might hit the open market... If he does, does he go back to New Orleans? Or do the Dolphins & Redskins play "high bidder," with Peyton going home to Bourbon Street?

[Izulde]

That would throw an interesting wildcard into the equation.

[cartman]

Fresh off of the heels of the NBA Kings announcing a stadium plan to keep them in Sacramento, the Vikings have announced a new stadium deal to keep them in Minneapolis.

Vikings stadium deal to be announced Thursday | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/140984883.html)

[Logan]

Drew Brees is apparently not liking what the Saints are offering & would be PISSED if franchised. I'm wondering if he might hit the open market... If he does, does he go back to New Orleans? Or do the Dolphins & Redskins play "high bidder," with Peyton going home to Bourbon Street?

Every player gets pissed when they're franchised. I would think the Saints would risk him being upset and franchise him anyway so they can keep on negotiating, if the alternative is letting him walk.

[spleen1015]

They can franchise him to make sure he doesn't go FA, then negotiate a contract with him and remove the franchise tag later, right?

[albionmoonlight]

The Saints have a pro-bowl guard, Carl Nicks, who everyone expects they will franchise.

If negotiations with Brees go badly and the team has to use the tag, then it will lose the ability to tag Nicks (and probably lose him to the open market).

So, the Saints have an incentive to get a deal with Brees done before the tag deadline. Of course, Brees knows this, so I am sure that he is using it as leverage.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

colston's a fa too.

[BillJasper]

The Saints have a pro-bowl guard, Carl Nicks, who everyone expects they will franchise.

If negotiations with Brees go badly and the team has to use the tag, then it will lose the ability to tag Nicks (and probably lose him to the open market).

So, the Saints have an incentive to get a deal with Brees done before the tag deadline. Of course, Brees knows this, so I am sure that he is using it as leverage.

You have to wonder what exactly Brees is asking for? And if the gulf is so large that it's worth losing a Pro Bowl player protecting your back side?

[Blackadar]

The Steelers released Hines Ward.

:(

I know it's time because Ward can't get separation anymore, but it's sad that it came to this. He's been my favorite Steeler player for about 10 years. A real Pro's Pro - a guy who came to play every game, every down and had a blast doing it.

[albionmoonlight]

colston's a fa too.

What I hear is that the team wants him back, but will let him hit FA (team does not really have a choice) and hope that no team blows him away with an offer.

Personally, if I were the 49ers, I'd overpay for Colston. That seems like a team that could really take another step offensively with a big possession receiver to help out Alex Smith.

[albionmoonlight]

dola:

I think that the Saints will also lose Robert Meachem. Some team will overpay for him based on his size/speed combination. And I think that that team will be making a mistake. Colston is just flat-out talented. Meachem is, IMO, more of a product of the Brees/Payton system. Az Hakim 2.0

[albionmoonlight]

You have to wonder what exactly Brees is asking for? And if the gulf is so large that it's worth losing a Pro Bowl player protecting your back side?

It does seem a bit strange. Brady and Manning recently signed extensions, so you would think that the parameters of a deal would already be set. Basically take those two deals, add a bit for inflation, and there you go.

Part of me wonders if the Manning injury has something to do with it. It might not be so much about the annual dollar figure as how it will be structured. Manning and Brees have the same agent. And the Colts are about to cut Manning instead of giving him the $28 million bonus that, at the time he signed the contract, "everyone knew" he would get.

It might be that the Saints are trying to push some of the money into roster bonuses for cap reasons, and Brees is pointing out that he'd just as soon get all the money up front, thank you very much.

And, when the team says, "look, it's a roster bonus. The only way you won't get it is if we cut you in two years, and there is no way we would do that," Brees can simply point to Manning.

Who knows.

[Samdari]

It does seem a bit strange. Brady and Manning recently signed extensions, so you would think that the parameters of a deal would already be set. Basically take those two deals, add a bit for inflation, and there you go.

Heard one "insider" claim that the Saints were offering Manning/Brady money, and that the two sides were still "far apart" That would indicate Brees was looking for significantly more than an inflation increase over that.

[stevew]

This Broncos rape trial is pretty gross. D Thomas brings a girl(girlfriend?) over to Perrish Cox's house. She gets drunk and passes out. Cox allegedly rapes her after Thomas bounces. Chick is pregnant and the baby is Cox's. Good character all around.

[DaddyTorgo]

Heard one "insider" claim that the Saints were offering Manning/Brady money, and that the two sides were still "far apart" That would indicate Brees was looking for significantly more than an inflation increase over that.

Then he's dreaming.

[Ksyrup]

Drop Brees, sign Manning, win a SB with home team, he can retire.

[Swaggs]

Pretty bummed to see Hines Ward go and I'm not sure that I understand it unless he has unrealistic salary demands (and reports had been that he was willing to come way down). He is certainly to the player that he once was the Steelers actually have a need for a 4/5-type of receiver (with Wallace, Brown, and Sanders all with 3 or fewer years of experience) and they have historically carried 1-2 veteran guys at the position.

Maybe they are planning to resign Cotchery, but it seems like he would be more expensive and they are close to the cap already.

[JPhillips]

About time Ward got blindsided.

[Scoobz0202]

My buddy just texted me saying Peyton Hillis is thinking about retiring and joining the CIA?? Is my buddy high or is this something seriously being discussed?

[Logan]

Maybe he meant Tiger Woods and joining the Navy SEALs.

[spleen1015]

My buddy just texted me saying Peyton Hillis is thinking about retiring and joining the CIA?? Is my buddy high or is this something seriously being discussed?

profootballtalk.com says he thought about it last season. I don't think it is anything current.

[cartman]

The Eagles franchise DeSean Jackson.

[jbergey22]

The Eagles franchise DeSean Jackson.

In other words the Eagles are going to underachieve again next year and basically ignore the real problem the team has. They had a chance to make a statement to the rest of the team that their attitudes need to change instead talent wins out. I think Deshaun would have been addition by subtraction personally.

[Lathum]

In other words the Eagles are going to underachieve again next year and basically ignore the real problem the team has. They had a chance to make a statement to the rest of the team that their attitudes need to change instead talent wins out. I think Deshaun would have been addition by subtraction personally.

I agree with this, plus is he really worth the average of the top 5 guys? IMO they should have let him walk.

[stevew]

Adam Schefter reporting that up to 25 guys will be franchised this year, which is 11 more than the previous record.

Brent Grimes was the first player in Falcons franchise history to be tagged.

Just off the top of my head, these moves(among many others) are expected-
*Desean Jackson-Eagles
*Grimes-Falcons
Anthony Spencer-Cowboys
Hicks/Brees-Saints
Forte-Bears
Rice-Ravens
Lynch-Seahawks
Goldson-Niners
*Tyvon Branch-Raiders

[miked]

I hear Bowe will be franchised by KC too.

[albionmoonlight]

Saints defense being investigated by NFL for putting bounties out on players from other teams.

Considering how hard the defense sucked last year, that's pretty surprising news. How about before you start paying bounties, you make sure you have the whole "keep the other team from scoring" thing down?

[Logan]

According to Schefter, it goes back to 2010 "targeting QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner".

"NFL security determined between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as at least one asst. coach, maintained a bounty program. Investigation reviewed 18.000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline. NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches. Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices." (pieced together tweets)

Really, you documented this thing?

[jbergey22]

According to Schefter, it goes back to 2010 "targeting QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner".

"NFL security determined between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as at least one asst. coach, maintained a bounty program. Investigation reviewed 18.000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline. NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches. Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices." (pieced together tweets)

Really, you documented this thing?

They did appear to be taking some shots on Favre in the championship game that many considered dirty. Also, Adrian Peterson has called them out more than once for being a dirty team and he seldom says anything negative about another team.

But yeah, documenting that is pure stupid. Now I only wonder if any of the bonuses handed out messed with their cap standing.

[albionmoonlight]

Re documentation: What's that Simpsons line where Jimbo says something like "Videotaping our crime spree is the best idea we've ever had!"

Anyway, I'm a huge Saints fan, but if this really happened, the team needs to be punished. "No bounties on players" is one of those bright-line rules. If you are stupid enough to do it, you deserve the punishment you get.

St. Louis has got to be wondering if hiring Gregg Williams was such a smart move.

[DeToxRox]

The Saints' 2010-2011 "bounty" program under ex-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is being characterized by the NFL as a "pay for performance" plan that awarded defenders $1,500 for "knockouts" and $1,000" for offensive players the opposing team was forced to cart off the field.

The Saints would often target a particular player, which reminds of Williams' comments to inflict "remember-me shots" on Brett Favre and Peyton Manning in 2010. Players "regularly" put money into a cash pool and received payments when they successfully injured opponents. New Orleans is already without a 2012 first-round pick, so the NFL could begin taking away additional draft choices this year and a first-rounder in 2013. Expect discipline to be harsh. It will be discussed further at the league's meetings in March.

[DeToxRox]

Dola

Now in New Orleans defense, they did spend the entire 2011 season not targeting the QB at all so maybe that self imposed penalty will suffice.

[Rizon]

New Orleans Raiders?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Really, you documented this thing?

As someone who has spent quite a bit of time reviewing documents to see if people say stupid things, you would be surprised at how often people document really dumb things. Most of the really bad stuff tends to be emails, since people don't always thinking before writing them and they tend to stick around for a long, long time.

[Shkspr]

50K pages of documents? That's about fifty pages of paperwork per Saints player per week dedicated just to bounties.

More like the New Orleans Readers, not Raiders.

[DeToxRox]

Schefter tweet: A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

[Blackadar]

About time Ward got blindsided.

He wasn't. He knew this was coming.

Still, it's been a bit of a sad week in Steelerland with Ward, Farrior and Smith cut (along with Kemo and Battle). None of the cuts are difference-makers on the field - only Farrior was a part time starter - but 3 of those guys epitomized the blue collar ethic that helped the Steelers win two Super Bowls. They're all considered Pro's Pros - character guys with great work ethics, who played at a very high level (all 3 were All Pros) who left it all on the field. As such, it's sad to see three of those kind of guys go in the same off-season.

[JPhillips]

There are also problems with the CBA and salary cap if they're giving out money.

[Grover]

Mike Nugent franchised. Whoo!

[DeToxRox]

According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, the NFL has determined that MLB Jonathan Vilma was one of the primary culprits in the Saints' "pay for performance" bounty program that will result in NFL discipline.

"In the week of the NFC Championship Game," Schefter said on NFL Live Friday, "Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma put $10,000 in cash on a table and said 'this goes to the guy that knocks out Brett Favre.'" Those weren't Vilma's exact words, but they were similar, according to Schefter, and he's sure to be atop the league's target list for impending discipline. It's worth nothing that Vilma is due $5.4 million in 2012 and has been discussed as a possible salary cap casualty. We wouldn't expect him back with the Saints.

[ISiddiqui]

Jeez, Louise. Giving bounties to knocking out players? 50k pages of documents detailing such? I mean, what did they have different amounts you could "win" depending on the stats of the person you knocked out?

[Kodos]

I always liked Ward. I hope he can prove the front office wrong and have another productive year or two. Come down to Miami and catch some passes from a guy named Peyton!

[Kodos]

I hope Tracy Porter isn't involved with any of this. One of my favorite guys, being a former Hoosier.

[albionmoonlight]

According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, the NFL has determined that MLB Jonathan Vilma was one of the primary culprits in the Saints' "pay for performance" bounty program that will result in NFL discipline.

"In the week of the NFC Championship Game," Schefter said on NFL Live Friday, "Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma put $10,000 in cash on a table and said 'this goes to the guy that knocks out Brett Favre.'" Those weren't Vilma's exact words, but they were similar, according to Schefter, and he's sure to be atop the league's target list for impending discipline. It's worth nothing that Vilma is due $5.4 million in 2012 and has been discussed as a possible salary cap casualty. We wouldn't expect him back with the Saints.

You can take a player out of The U. But you can't take The U out of a player.

[SirFozzie]

Both the NFL writers I follow (Schefter, Peter King) are saying they expect that the Saints will face penalties that START past what the Pats faced for Spygate (a first round pick taken away) and could be SIGNIFICANTLY harsher, because they found out about it, told the Saints to stop it and the players apparently ignored it,

[stevew]

He wasn't. He knew this was coming.

Still, it's been a bit of a sad week in Steelerland with Ward, Farrior and Smith cut (along with Kemo and Battle). None of the cuts are difference-makers on the field - only Farrior was a part time starter - but 3 of those guys epitomized the blue collar ethic that helped the Steelers win two Super Bowls. They're all considered Pro's Pros - character guys with great work ethics, who played at a very high level (all 3 were All Pros) who left it all on the field. As such, it's sad to see three of those kind of guys go in the same off-season.

So glad they cut that fat retard Kemo.

[Blackadar]

I always liked Ward. I hope he can prove the front office wrong and have another productive year or two. Come down to Miami and catch some passes from a guy named Peyton!

Hines is my favorite Steeler player since Mean Joe Green, but I really believe he's done on the football field. He can catch the ball, but he gets zero separation now, so there's no way to get the ball to him. He's not big enough to be a great end-zone target. As such, he's a liability to his team. Yeah, he can still block on running plays, but if you call a pass you can have a LB cover him and the safety doesn't even have to glance twice in his direction.

So glad they cut that fat retard Kemo.

+1

I've been saying for two years that Foster is the better guard anyway. When you add in Kemo's predilection for late hits, dumb penalties and generally poor fitness, he's been one of the poorest performers on a bad OL the last 24 months.

[stevew]

I hate that they decided to bring back Colon. I never saw how he was so good, and he's been hella injury prone the last two years. It must have been them trying to make it work one more time since they foolishly gave him an extension already.

Gilbert has to play LT next season, he better be ready.

They still need to get rid of/replace Hampton. He's done.

[JPhillips]

Both the NFL writers I follow (Schefter, Peter King) are saying they expect that the Saints will face penalties that START past what the Pats faced for Spygate (a first round pick taken away) and could be SIGNIFICANTLY harsher, because they found out about it, told the Saints to stop it and the players apparently ignored it,

Exactly like sending a letter to all the NFL and Belichick ignoring it.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah and the defenders are using the same argument that everybody does it.. but one hes to do with doing an allowed activity from an unhallowed location.. and the other gave bonuses for players taken out on the cart at a time when the nfl is under fire for player health issues

[B & B]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-PjYKAb5M-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RedKingGold]

BTW, when they're saying "50,000 pages of documents", I don't think they mean specific documented proof by the Saints that "we agree to pay x to kill y." It's probably stuff like bank documents, media claims (like Adrian Peterson), witness statements.

[Dutch]

Right, that's more like a FOIA type collection so they can look for proof.

[JPhillips]

Franchise tag for Fred Davis?

[Lathum]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-PjYKAb5M-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

lol

[Suburban Rhythm]

Hines is my favorite Steeler player since Mean Joe Green, but I really believe he's done on the football field. He can catch the ball, but he gets zero separation now, so there's no way to get the ball to him. He's not big enough to be a great end-zone target. As such, he's a liability to his team. Yeah, he can still block on running plays, but if you call a pass you can have a LB cover him and the safety doesn't even have to glance twice in his direction.

This. Witness the end of the season, forcing the ball to him on bubble screens and, for catch #1000, a shuffle pass, for a 3 yard loss, because that was the only way to ensure he not have a defender right on top of him.

It's sad, but it's time to move forward. Selfishly, I want him to get cut in another team's camp, and return to Pittsburgh to retire.

So glad they cut that fat retard Kemo.

+1

I've been saying for two years that Foster is the better guard anyway. When you add in Kemo's predilection for late hits, dumb penalties and generally poor fitness, he's been one of the poorest performers on a bad OL the last 24 months.

I'm betting in typical Kemo fashion, he started cleaning out his locker just before the announcement was made.


I hate that they decided to bring back Colon. I never saw how he was so good, and he's been hella injury prone the last two years. It must have been them trying to make it work one more time since they foolishly gave him an extension already.

Gilbert has to play LT next season, he better be ready.

They still need to get rid of/replace Hampton. He's done.

I think Hamp is back by default. I personally have no problem with moving Hood to NT. Yeah, he's not Hampton, but 1) it gets Heyward on the field more at DE and 2) stopping the run just isn't that important anymore. It's like having the newest, coolest beeper in a word of smartphones. Sure it's the best at what it does, but it's no longer needed.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Exactly like sending a letter to all the NFL and Belichick ignoring it.

Exactly what I thought of.

Not sure how this is "so much worse" when in either case you can point out similarities through both. Goodell's decision should be the same as last time - make his judgement, then destroy all the evidence before it can be questioned further.

[albionmoonlight]

People are going to make the Spygate analogy, but that the two situations have little in common.

The Saints took out bounties on other players and tried to injure them. That's disgusting on a human decency level--it goes beyond football and is much much worse than videotaping opponents.

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games. The Saints did not receive any material advantage from that unworthy scheme.

Spygate was not as disgusting, but it got right at the heart of the competitive nature of the game. There's basically half-a-decade of NFL and Super Bowl history that was mis-written by the Pats. Would Peyton Manning have four Super Bowls by now? Would Kurt Warner have two?

So, they seem to have little in common. From a football perspective, Spygate was worse. From a decent human being perspective, Bountygate was worse.

[SirFozzie]

I'm sorry, the thought that it "miswrote Five years of history" is ludicrous.

"videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

That's all they did. They did something that was not illegal in a place they shouldn't have. Admittedly, they continued to do it after getting the letter from the league (to all teams) that they were not to do it, but comparing the two as equal is ridiculous.

[Matthean]

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games.

You would have to go back, watch games, and see what kind of injuries happened.

[albionmoonlight]

but comparing the two as equal is ridiculous.

I agree. My thesis is that people want to compare the two, but that they are not comparable. The Patriots cheated. What the Saints did is systematic uncivilized behavior. I think that the punishment should be harsh and unambiguous.

But I also think that Spygate certainly had a big effect on NFL history. The Pats thought that it was worth doing after being directly told in writing not to. They got fined a first round pick for it, and Goddell thought that it would just be better to destroy the evidence.

[DeToxRox]

Loomis has done a lot to destroy the Saints this offseason. Now that they have franchised Brees, Nicks and Colston are gone. Colston is pretty overrated but Nicks leaving is huge. How they couldn't work out a deal with Brees is astounding to me.

[DeToxRox]

FOX Sports' Jay Glazer reports the league will hand down its punishment in the Saints' "bounty" scandal before the March 26-28 owners' meetings.

A ruling could reportedly come as early as next week. Although it's unclear what the league's punishment will be in an unprecedented case, the loss of New Orleans' 2013 first-round pick and the suspension of former DC Gregg Williams are both good bets. Massive fines and additional docked picks are also likely.

[Suburban Rhythm]

People are going to make the Spygate analogy, but that the two situations have little in common.

The Saints took out bounties on other players and tried to injure them. That's disgusting on a human decency level--it goes beyond football and is much much worse than videotaping opponents.

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games. The Saints did not receive any material advantage from that unworthy scheme.

Spygate was not as disgusting, but it got right at the heart of the competitive nature of the game. There's basically half-a-decade of NFL and Super Bowl history that was mis-written by the Pats. Would Peyton Manning have four Super Bowls by now? Would Kurt Warner have two?

So, they seem to have little in common. From a football perspective, Spygate was worse. From a decent human being perspective, Bountygate was worse.

I guess this is where I fall. I don't look to the NFL to guide my moral compass. You can be disgusted by what the Saints did as a person, but to the NFL, Spygate should seem worse.

I don't understand how the NFL can say this is worse than a team willfully disregarding a league mandate to quit something that, theoretically, impacted the competitiveness of the teams.

[gstelmack]

but to the NFL, Spygate should seem worse.

I don't understand how the NFL can say this is worse than a team willfully disregarding a league mandate to quit something that, theoretically, impacted the competitiveness of the teams.

Well, first off the Saints were told to stop, and they continued anyway. Remember there were allegations a couple of seasons ago, they couldn't prove anything, now they can, and that it continued after the original.

As for this notion that Spygate was "cheating": it's only worse for the NFL in that Bill ignored Goodell and continued to do it. That's what they were punished for, and rightfully so. This notion that it was cheating: it was not against the rules to tape the play and tape the coach's signs. It was only against the rules do it from the location the Patriots were using. The Pats were punished for ignoring a warning to stop, not for gaining some competitive edge by taping plays and coaches.

[Tigercat]

It was only against the rules do it from the location the Patriots were using. The Pats were punished for ignoring a warning to stop, not for gaining some competitive edge by taping plays and coaches.

As far as the NFL is concerned, the Pats did something that gained a competitive advantage, even if you may think its trivial.



It will be near impossible for the NFL make the case that the Saints gained a competitive edge. The Saints weren't able to cause more injuries by having a bounty. Either they made clean hits or they didn't. If they didn't they were penalized, if the tape showed malicious out of context hits, the NFL could have issued suspensions/fines. I don't see how one can make the case that bounties should be punished as if it affected the actual outcomes of the games.* (In other words, I don't see how you can take away draft picks and make a logical argument for it.) Now, suspensions for and or all coaches and players involved? Sure.

*All that being said Goodell has shown that he won't let logical arguments stop him when he wants to prove a point.

[Grammaticus]

I guess this is where I fall. I don't look to the NFL to guide my moral compass. You can be disgusted by what the Saints did as a person, but to the NFL, Spygate should seem worse.

I don't understand how the NFL can say this is worse than a team willfully disregarding a league mandate to quit something that, theoretically, impacted the competitiveness of the teams.

Well, lets see. The NFL already has players suing them for compensation due to not doing enough for the sake of safety in the past. I would say not addressing this issue regarding the Saints with appropriate force would be much worse than any fallout from the Patriots spygate miss hap.

I'm not saying the spygate thing should not have been addressed harshly also. It is just, this Saints thing is not about a moral compass. It is about liability.

[Tigercat]

The NFL already has players suing them for compensation due to not doing enough for the sake of safety in the past.



I'm not saying the spygate thing should not have been addressed harshly also. It is just, this Saints thing is not about a moral compass. It is about liability.


Do bounties make the game more unsafe? Do NFL players hit softer without bounties? Is there any pattern of totally out of context hits by the Saints under Williams as a result of bounties? And if so, why wasn't this pattern seen by all those cameras, and the players suspended?

And if the answers are no, and the bounties didn't make the game less safe, how is the NFL more liable for a change in safety that isn't occurring?

[molson]

Do bounties make the game more unsafe? Do NFL players hit softer without bounties?

What's the point of a bounty if not to encourage players to knock other guys out and have them carted off?

But it doesn't matter, I don't think the NFL is in the position to have prove specific harm as the result of this particular bounty program. The bounty itself the illegal thing. "Ya, we had bounties but you can't prove they actually caused anyone to get knocked out" - that isn't going to fly. And if the NFL doesn't go after violations of THAT policy, after all they're claiming to do to make the league safer, well, they can't be sued on that directly, but it'd be pretty compelling evidence for punitive damages in a sentencing phase of another case.

[Tigercat]

What's the point of a bounty if not to encourage players to knock other guys out and have them carted off?

I can't speak for what they planned to gain, but it appears to be a defensive team unity thing to reward a nasty attitude on the field. But regardless, I think you want to knock out Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, ect, ect, if you have a bounty or not.

You can reward your teammates for TDs, do you really think its necessary? That they wouldn't try to get TDs without the extra money? Or maybe a better within the rules comparison, what about pancake blocks? You can have an incentives for those, but I would think a OL will try his hardest to knock a defender on his ass regardless of reward money.

[MrBug708]

You are rewarding them for trying to hurt someone intentionally. Rather than make a tackle, you are telling them to go after the knees so they can be carted off. You aren't tackling them, but you are ensuring that they can't score.

I would imagine you would feel the same way had it come out that someone was intentionally trying to blow out Brees knees.

[Tigercat]

"Ya, we had bounties but you can't prove they actually caused anyone to get knocked out" - that isn't going to fly. And if the NFL doesn't go after violations of THAT policy, after all they're claiming to do to make the league safer, well, they can't be sued on that directly, but it'd be pretty compelling evidence for punitive damages in a sentencing phase of another case.

If Bounties can be punished with the assumption that they lead to injuries, I guess we better punish any athlete that admits he is out to injure other players.

Because hey, why can't that be in there for punitive damages too? Look, the NFL's employees (or contractors or whatnot) are saying they were trying to injure my clients! And the NFL did nothing!

What's the difference from an injury/liability standpoint? Nothing, in my mind, because every defender is trying to hurt the opposing player in some fashion. If there is a pattern of going out of context of the game, it is in front of all the cameras, and the NFL has the opportunity to stop a pattern of such. And in this case? Such a pattern didn't exist.

[DaddyTorgo]

If Bounties can be punished with the assumption that they lead to injuries, I guess we better punish any athlete that admits he is out to injure other players.

Because hey, why can't that be in there for punitive damages too? Look, the NFL's employees (or contractors or whatnot) are saying they were trying to injure my clients! And the NFL did nothing!

What's the difference from an injury/liability standpoint? Nothing, in my mind, because every defender is trying to hurt the opposing player in some fashion. If there is a pattern of going out of context of the game, it is in front of all the cameras, and the NFL has the opportunity to stop a pattern of such. And in this case? Such a pattern didn't exist.

You're sticking up for your team, which is understandable, but it's a pretty simple NFL rule and they are going to get (deservedly) smacked for it.

[Tigercat]

You are rewarding them for trying to hurt someone intentionally. Rather than make a tackle, you are telling them to go after the knees so they can be carted off. You aren't tackling them, but you are ensuring that they can't score.

I would imagine you would feel the same way had it come out that someone was intentionally trying to blow out Brees knees.

I must have missed all the players the Saints sent to the bench or hospital under Williams. The Saints hurt Favre and Warner badly in '09. But the two worst hits against Favre were bang-bang after the whistle, and Warner got hurt because he was pancaked while trying to make a play after he threw an INT. The only Saints player that has consistently had late hits under Williams is Roman Harper, but he also had 7 sacks as a safety this past year, being a wild blitzer is part of who he is. (Admittedly though, he has also made some cheap hits as well.)

Again, if there was a pattern the NFL only has the most surveillanced workplace in the world to see it with.

[Tigercat]

You're sticking up for your team, which is understandable, but it's a pretty simple NFL rule and they are going to get (deservedly) smacked for it.

Hell, I think individual players and coaches might get the book throw at them, and why not? It was horrid conduct. Horrid conduct gets employees punished, as it should.

But horrid conduct does not mean that there is a logical case to be made that 1) it actually lead to something dangerous, or 2) that it affected the competitive balance of the game, which is the point where you take away draft picks and such.

[Chubby]

Aren't performance bonuses banned in the NFL anyways?

[Tigercat]

Aren't performance bonuses banned in the NFL anyways?

I think pools and such are. But players make incentive promises to their teammates all the time, legal or not. Can't really do much about that sorta thing, can't stop teammates from giving each other gifts. And of course you have bonuses and incentives in contracts.

[Chubby]

I think pools and such are. But players make incentive promises to their teammates all the time, legal or not. Can't really do much about that sorta thing, can't stop teammates from giving each other gifts. And of course you have bonuses and incentives in contracts.

I think in the contracts it's roster bonuses and such, I have no idea where to look to validate my hazy rememberance but I thought any performance bonuses were against the CBA in the NFL. I think this is where they can really hammer the Saints if they want to

[Tigercat]

I think in the contracts it's roster bonuses and such, I have no idea where to look to validate my hazy rememberance but I thought any performance bonuses were against the CBA in the NFL. I think this is where they can really hammer the Saints if they want to

There is definitely still some incentives, such as playoff win bonuses. But, that's an interesting point, I hadn't really considered the compensation angle. And if Payton and Loomis did know about it, I suppose they could make a case that as a club they knowingly circumvented cap/compensation rules. That would be reasonable grounds for punishing the entire team as if they did disrupt the balance of the game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting (I guess) take from former DB/KR Bucky Brooks

NFL.com news: Saints' 'pay for performance' system commonplace in NFL (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275bb0f/article/saints-pay-for-performance-system-commonplace-in-nfl)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I have no idea where to look to validate my hazy rememberance but I thought any performance bonuses were against the CBA in the NFL.

Here's the rule I finally found being cited

The "Pay for Performance" program violates the NFL's rule prohibiting "Non- Contract Bonuses."

The rule states that "No bonus or award may directly or indirectly be offered, promised, announced, or paid to a player for his or his team's performance against a particular team or opposing player or a particular group thereof. No bonuses or awards may be offered or paid for on field misconduct (for example, personal fouls to or injuries inflicted on opposing players)."

Read more here: The News Tribune (Lite) - NFL says Saints used illegal bounty program (http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/03/02/v-lite/2049857/nfl-says-saints-used-illegal-bounty.html#storylink=cpy)

[Tigercat]

There are still win bonuses though, they just can't be game specific. Teams can promise win or playoff win $ in contracts , see: Tim Tebow (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/09/playoff-wins-are-worth-250000-to-tim-tebow/). And the NFL itself gives out bonuses for all players involved in post season wins. But, nope, gone are the day of the Ricky Williams rookie contract, built mainly on yard and TD benchmarks.

[Matthean]

Latest on Brees and Manning

Indianapolis Colts' Peyton Manning throws in Duke University workout, source says - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7640741/indianapolis-colts-peyton-manning-throws-duke-university-workout-source-says)

New Orleans Saints tag Drew Brees with exclusive rights franchise tag - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7641895/new-orleans-saints-tag-drew-brees-exclusive-rights-franchise-tag)

[mckerney]

There are still win bonuses though, they just can't be game specific. Teams can promise win or playoff win $ in contracts , see: Tim Tebow (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/09/playoff-wins-are-worth-250000-to-tim-tebow/). And the NFL itself gives out bonuses for all players involved in post season wins. But, nope, gone are the day of the Ricky Williams rookie contract, built mainly on yard and TD benchmarks.

I believe you can still have incentive bonuses for reaching statistical milestones, but they have to be in the contract and count against the cap appropriately. The team can't just say, "$50,000 to any player who gains 100 yards today."

[Grover]

NFL will investigate claims that Redskins had a bounty program for big hits under defensive coordinator Gregg Williams - The Insider - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/nfl-will-investigate-claims-that-redskins-had-a-bounty-program-for-big-hits-under-defensive-coordinator-gregg-williams/2012/03/03/gIQAz34poR_blog.html?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost)

Perhaps this is a Williams specialty.

[jbergey22]

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games. The Saints did not receive any material advantage from that unworthy scheme.



Very debatable. Whether or not the bounties had anything to do with the late/low hits of Favre in the championship game cant be proven however when Favre was completely beatup running around on one leg that certainly could have had an effect on a game that was decided in OT.

We cant know for certain what impact these bouties had but they certainly could have effected outcomes.

My comment after the NFC Championship 2010 which had a lot of bitterness in it but also a lot of truth.

Never in a million years did I think Id cheer for the Colts in the Super Bowl against the Saints but after watching how dirty the Saints played today I have no choice. Between cheap shots on Favre and taking out his knees(which wasnt even a penalty???) I lost a lot of respect for how the Saints play.
I just find it interesting with the news of this bounty on Favre in the Championship because I was so pissed watching that game and every single time they got a chance they took a shot on him, even on run plays. May have had nothing to do with any bounties but Favre hadnt been beatup that bad the prior 17 games combined.

[molson]

I guess we better punish any athlete that admits he is out to injure other players.



I think we're there already. I seem to remember some borderline case last year whether there was some debate about whether a guy was going to be fined or suspended for making comments like that - I think the NFL ended up just saying they were going to "watch him closely", whoever it was, and if he DID end up injuring anyone, they'd take that into account when it came to penalty). But I think if a player clearly came out and said he was looking to knockout Tom Brady or Drew Brees, he probably would be punished at this point. At the very least, if that player did injure a QB, even if it wasn't on purpose, he'd be punished more harshly because of the comments. The NFL is desperately trying to remove that aspect of the game (or at least, make that the perception).

[JPhillips]

I thought they would hit the Saints hard, but now that there are at least three teams being investigated I don't think the teams will lose any first round picks. Williams will get a good suspension (8 games maybe) and the teams will get fined heavily, but I can't see the NFL stripping multiple teams of first rounders. Taking the Redskins first round pick would cut them out of the RG3 race, but if you don't take that pick you can't take first rounders from the Saints or Bills.

When it was just the Saints it was an opportunity for the NFL to look tough by penalizing a team, but if it looks systemic they'll back off a bit rather than cripple a chunk of the league.

[JAG]

Very debatable. Whether or not the bounties had anything to do with the late/low hits of Favre in the championship game cant be proven however when Favre was completely beatup running around on one leg that certainly could have had an effect on a game that was decided in OT.

We cant know for certain what impact these bouties had but they certainly could have effected outcomes.

My comment after the NFC Championship 2010 which had a lot of bitterness in it but also a lot of truth.


I just find it interesting with the news of this bounty on Favre in the Championship because I was so pissed watching that game and every single time they got a chance they took a shot on him, even on run plays. May have had nothing to do with any bounties but Favre hadnt been beatup that bad the prior 17 games combined.

That's the one game that came to my mind immediately when I heard about this.

[miked]

Reading about this going on in BUF and WAS, could it be possible that Williams is gone for a year?

[Bigsmooth]

This bounty story couldn't be less interesting to me. Regardless of bounties, most defensive players have the same goal...knock out the other teams best players. What's an extra $5,000 to most of these players? Jesus, free agency can't start fast enough so this crap story will fade.

[jbergey22]

This bounty story couldn't be less interesting to me. Regardless of bounties, most defensive players have the same goal...knock out the other teams best players. What's an extra $5,000 to most of these players? Jesus, free agency can't start fast enough so this crap story will fade.

I dont think "most defensive players" have the goal of knocking out the other teams best players. I think it was a Giants player that was asked about knocking Brady out of the game prior to the Super Bowl. His comment was "I respect Brady as a player and respect his livelihood as a man, we are not out their trying to injury players." I hope this is how most defensive players feel.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

This bounty story couldn't be less interesting to me. Regardless of bounties, most defensive players have the same goal...knock out the other teams best players. What's an extra $5,000 to most of these players? Jesus, free agency can't start fast enough so this crap story will fade.
+1

can we get some hgh testing please? does anyone look at the size of peyton hillis' head and think, "oh, that's natural.'

[Doug5984]

Looks like I'm in the minority on this one, I don't have a problem with a "bounty" system- if they are legal hits. If there are illegal hits then throw a flag, fine, and suspend the player.

I want to see big hits, legal hits. Sheldon Brown hitting Reggie in the playoffs a few years ago is a great example. I hope that he got paid for that hit, it was beautiful. Pierre Thomas getting rocked against the 49ers is another, that was a game changing play and was a HUGE play in the 49ers winning the game. What is so wrong with having players reward each other for big hits? Is that different than a RB buying his entire line a gift after the season for laying down good blocks? (Linemen block, defenders tackle).

There is nothing wrong with wanting to knock guys out of the game- again, as long as they are legal hits. Any illegal hits- throw the flag, fine the player, suspend the player, hell throw the player out of the game if it is flagrant. I'm good with all that.

They are making this such a huge deal, and I'd be willing to bet this happens on almost every team and every level of football, and probably hockey as well. Big hits are part of the game.

And regarding the Favre NFC Champ game- that should have nothing to do with bounties, that was about winning the NFC Championship game and part of the plan was to continually hit Favre because it would lead to turnovers. (I think most teams say - we need to get the QB to create turnovers, I think that is one of the most common sayings in football, it's the same thing) If there was no bounty in place the game plan remains the same.

I'm not saying I want to see players go for knees and end seasons/careers. That should never be tolerated, and if it is ever deemed intentional that player should have the book thrown at them, and suspensions should be lengthy.

I don't want to see players launch helmet to helmet- I think this has gone a little to far in the other direction this year, but there have been some bad hits like this that have derailed careers, and these should be dealt with harshly.

I do want to see hard hits, I want to see defenders jar the ball lose, and get into a QBs head and make him make mistakes.

I do not have a problem with players rewarding each other for ANY type of play, I do not have a problem with coaches rewarding players for plays, as long as it doesn't start violating the cap, if a coach comes in and slaps 5k on the table and says whoever gets the first turnover takes this home- that's ok in my book, if it gets up to 6 figures then you have cap issues, and IRS problems.

[Grover]

+1

can we get some hgh testing please? does anyone look at the size of peyton hillis' head and think, "oh, that's natural.'

Or Peyton Manning's forehead. Jeez.

[jbergey22]

And regarding the Favre NFC Champ game- that should have nothing to do with bounties, that was about winning the NFC Championship game and part of the plan was to continually hit Favre because it would lead to turnovers. (I think most teams say - we need to get the QB to create turnovers, I think that is one of the most common sayings in football, it's the same thing) If there was no bounty in place the game plan remains the same.



I am sure you would change your attitude if 300 pound defensive ends completely disregarded simple dive plays to shove Brees into the ground as many times as he could. Or on a sweep to Sproles a corner on the other side of the field comes in a lays out Brees for no real reason. Have Brees take 20-25 hits for no purpose and we will see if you like your franchise qb getting pounded on in plays he has no direct involvement in.

Not against the rules but certainly not something the NFL wants.

The great hit the 49ers had on Pierre is really not comparable to cheap shots that serve no purpose other than causing injury or beating a player into submission.

I generally think most of the time the QB is left alone if he doesnt have the ball.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Or Peyton Manning's forehead. Jeez.
peyton's head is actually normal. he just wears an ill fitting toupee.

seriously, if the nfl really wanted to neuter some of the sound and the fury™ they should address shs(swollen head syndrome) and rgff(ripped guy fat face)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Far be it from me to seem like the voice of reason on anything, but ... it seems like there's a fairly simple line here.

I'm a hard hits/big hits guy (assuming you actually make the tackle/play of course). I'm in the "football has been overwussified recently" camp.

That said, the line for me is somewhere around rewarding intent to injure - I don't mean knock goofy, I mean take out a knee/detach a retina kind of stuff - versus making a meaningful play that doesn't end a guy's season/career.

Just based on the stuff I've read so far, it appears that the Saints program crossed that line into being less about football and more about decimation.

[albionmoonlight]

Far be it from me to seem like the voice of reason on anything, but ... it seems like there's a fairly simple line here.

I'm a hard hits/big hits guy (assuming you actually make the tackle/play of course). I'm in the "football has been overwussified recently" camp.

That said, the line for me is somewhere around rewarding intent to injure - I don't mean knock goofy, I mean take out a knee/detach a retina kind of stuff - versus making a meaningful play that doesn't end a guy's season/career.

Just based on the stuff I've read so far, it appears that the Saints program crossed that line into being less about football and more about decimation.

Yup.

If the coaches had simply preached "We are going to win by hitting harder. I expect you to hit the QB as hard as you legally can every time it is legal to do so. Show respect to your Grandma; don't show it to Kurt Warner," then I think that everyone would say that that's just football.

The line that's been crossed (assuming the reports are true--and no one has yet to hint that they are not) is rewarding players for trying to injure other players. That's disgusting, and it is not just good, hard football. To borrow a line from xkcd, setting up a bounty pool that pays out when players get carted off isn't just dirty play; it's the example you give your kids to show them why dirty play is wrong.

From a competitiveness standpoint, I actually wonder if the bounty program hurt the Saints as much as helped them. One of the biggest complaints about the defense from the fans before any of this came out is the fact that guys always seemed to be going for the kill-shot instead of simply wrapping up and tackling. How much of that was so that the guys could have bounty bragging rights for the week?

[SirFozzie]

Wow.. sounds like the NFL's ready to drop a metaphorical bomb on the Saints, the players and the coaches involved:

From the WaPost's Mark Maske's Twitter:

The NFL is considering severe penalties, including lengthy suspensions, in the Saints bounty case. In some cases, the suspensions under consideration could be a half-season or longer, according to a person familiar with the case. Among those who could face significant suspensions are Gregg Williams, Sean Payton, Mickey Loomis and those players most heavily involved. Some of the penalties could be "unprecedented," according to one person familiar with the case.

[BillJasper]

They need to ban Gregg Williams from ever working in the NFL again.

[Apathetic Lurker]

They need to ban Gregg Williams from ever working in the NFL again.

+1


hxxp://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275d670/article/dungy-traces-mannings-injury-to-hit-by-williams-redskins-d?module=HP11_hot_topics

[Doug5984]

I keep hearing that the Saints were trying to injure all these players- I've yet to see examples of how many guys the Saints knocked out because of the bounty system, or just knocked out in general. I think the media got this and is just running wild right now because there is nothing else to talk about.

I posted this question on the Saints board (where there is actually about a 50/50 split on the opinion on this) and I have yet to get a real answer. Who did the Saints injure? More importantly who did the Saints injure with a dirty play? I can't think of any off the top of my head, I know someone had to have a knee injury against us in the past 3 years.

We never had a player suspended for a hit, and I'd guess that our fines were in line with every other team in the league. We keep hearing how horrible it was, I just don't buy it. I could be wrong, but can anyone name a player who was injured due to an illegal hit?

edit re: jbergey
Missed your post yesterday- i wouldn't like it, but it's up to the team and the o-line to protect the QB. None of those were malicious hits to the knees- they just knocked him on his ass a lot.

[Ksyrup]

If I hear/read one more paper towel joke, I am going to kill someone.

[Blackadar]

I keep hearing that the Saints were trying to injure all these players- I've yet to see examples of how many guys the Saints knocked out because of the bounty system, or just knocked out in general. I think the media got this and is just running wild right now because there is nothing else to talk about.

I posted this question on the Saints board (where there is actually about a 50/50 split on the opinion on this) and I have yet to get a real answer. Who did the Saints injure? More importantly who did the Saints injure with a dirty play? I can't think of any off the top of my head, I know someone had to have a knee injury against us in the past 3 years.

We never had a player suspended for a hit, and I'd guess that our fines were in line with every other team in the league. We keep hearing how horrible it was, I just don't buy it. I could be wrong, but can anyone name a player who was injured due to an illegal hit?


That really doesn't matter.

[Autumn]

Yeah, there's a pretty distinct difference between encouraging big hits, and encouraging injuries. Even my high school team, we got stickers for big hits. That's football, that's part of what we love about it. That's hugely different than encouraging injuries, even if big hits and injuries are related.

To me, you want to hit the guys so hard they have a hard time getting back up. But then they do and go back in the huddle, knowing they just got clocked. If you're trying to send guys to the bench you're basically saying, "We're not good enough to beat your starters, so we'll try some other way of winning."

[Fidatelo]

Yeah, there's a pretty distinct difference between encouraging big hits, and encouraging injuries. Even my high school team, we got stickers for big hits. That's football, that's part of what we love about it. That's hugely different than encouraging injuries, even if big hits and injuries are related.

To me, you want to hit the guys so hard they have a hard time getting back up. But then they do and go back in the huddle, knowing they just got clocked. If you're trying to send guys to the bench you're basically saying, "We're not good enough to beat your starters, so we'll try some other way of winning."

+1

Contact sports like football and hockey are supposed to be about tough competition, not ruthlessness. Ideally you want an opponent to finish the game knowing he played you; Some bruises and soreness, and maybe a bit of apprehension about crossing over the middle or going into the corners the next time you're out there. You shouldn't want him sitting on the bench in the 3rd quarter with a concussion or torn MCL.

Then again, Bobby Clarke has a much-ballyhooed Summit Series victory to show for sheer ruthlessness, so perhaps I'm just a pussy.

[Logan]

I keep hearing that the Saints were trying to injure all these players- I've yet to see examples of how many guys the Saints knocked out because of the bounty system, or just knocked out in general. I think the media got this and is just running wild right now because there is nothing else to talk about.

I posted this question on the Saints board (where there is actually about a 50/50 split on the opinion on this) and I have yet to get a real answer. Who did the Saints injure? More importantly who did the Saints injure with a dirty play? I can't think of any off the top of my head, I know someone had to have a knee injury against us in the past 3 years.

We never had a player suspended for a hit, and I'd guess that our fines were in line with every other team in the league. We keep hearing how horrible it was, I just don't buy it. I could be wrong, but can anyone name a player who was injured due to an illegal hit?

edit re: jbergey
Missed your post yesterday- i wouldn't like it, but it's up to the team and the o-line to protect the QB. None of those were malicious hits to the knees- they just knocked him on his ass a lot.

When I start to feel bad for 99% of Saints fans when the punishments are announced, I gotta remember to come back and read this post.

[Honolulu_Blue]

While I don't get too bent out of shape about this whole bounty thing, because I feel like it's something that goes on in pretty much every lockerroom and is really just a byproduct of the sport, I totally understand why the NFL should and has to come down hard when something as systemic and wide spread as the Saints bounty program comes to light.

The NFL is always dancing a fine line between glorifying to the brutality and physical nature of the sport and trying to protect the safety and health of its players. This issue has become even more prominent over the last three years as a result of the number and severity of concussions that are happening and the ever evolving medical research as to just what impact these concussions and other injuries are having on players long after they stop playing. Not to mention the current lawsuit being brought by former players for just this.

So, while the NFL will continue to show highlights of big hits and violent collisions, they have to create this idea (fantasy?) that all of that is just part of the sport and done in a clean, competitive way. Once you start paying guys for hurting other players, having them carted off the field and what not that illusion is shattered pretty quickly.

I think in many instances there is a very fine line between what is an acceptable and non-acceptable level of violence on the football field. As a fan of the Lions, a team that this year was considered by many to be one of the dirtier more violent teams in the NFL, it was an issue that paid a lot of attention to. Some stuff, like Suh's post-whistle stomp, were clearly over that line, while some other stuff that happened before the whistle was much harder to say really. The bounty thing is definitely over the line.

The NFL should and hast to come down hard on the Saints. Whether or not any of their players were fined or suspended for physical play is beside the point. Suh got two games for his stomp and it was completely ineffectual. He barely grazed the guy's arm and the guy never even missed a snap. There was no harm, but there was a foul.

[MacroGuru]

I don't know...the question is, do you come down on the Saints, Williams or Both. It's apparent that he has had the bounty with every organization he was with..

And if you come down on the Saints...do you go back and come down on all the teams that have had players come to light with the "Yeah we had it too.."

[cartman]

The bounty news sure puts the hits that McCray put on Warner and Favre in consecutive weeks in 2010 in a new light.

The Hit That Knocked Kurt Warner Into Retirement Sure Looks Different Knowing The Saints Got Paid To Injure Him (http://deadspin.com/5890060/the-hit-that-knocked-kurt-warner-into-retirement-sure-looks-different-knowing-the-saints-got-paid-to-injure-him)

[jbergey22]

The NFL is always dancing a fine line between glorifying to the brutality and physical nature of the sport and trying to protect the safety and health of its players. This issue has become even more prominent over the last three years as a result of the number and severity of concussions that are happening and the ever evolving medical research as to just what impact these concussions and other injuries are having on players long after they stop playing. Not to mention the current lawsuit being brought by former players for just this.


I think you hit the nail on the head here. They would have a hard time winning any future lawsuit cases if they were to just slap the Saints on the wrist and tell them to not do it again. They need to put the impression out there that they are taking a tough stance against the violence in the sport.

[jbergey22]

I posted this question on the Saints board (where there is actually about a 50/50 split on the opinion on this) and I have yet to get a real answer. Who did the Saints injure? More importantly who did the Saints injure with a dirty play? I can't think of any off the top of my head, I know someone had to have a knee injury against us in the past 3 years.



NFL Videos: Favre INT and injury (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815f15c5/Favre-INT-and-injury)


While not flagged for the hit McCray was fined for it.

It probably doesnt look that bad in watching it however he comes in helmet first right at the back of his knee while using his arms to sort of twist at the ankle. Not sure if he was being malicious or not.

And this is some of the crap they were doing on run plays. Simply inexcusable. Its not on the O-Line to protect the QB from getting hit on run plays to the opposite end of the field. Saints were just determined to nail Favre as many times as they could.
http://youtu.be/1aYGO252Bkg

[Honolulu_Blue]

The Lions have slapped the fanchise tag on Cliff Avril.