NBA Draft Lottery/Offseason Thread 2012

[stevew]

The 2012 NBA draft lottery will be broadcast at 8 p.m. on ESPN.
Dunno if this will format right.

Irving/Davis would be a great combo. Hopefully Stern fixes the lotto again. Tbh, I'm happy as long as Charlotte and Golden State both lose.



* No. of 1st 2nd 3rd Any top
Team Combos pick pick pick 3 pick
Charlotte 250 25.00% 21.47% 17.72% 64.19%
Washington 199 19.90% 18.78% 17.06% 55.74%
Cleveland 138 13.80% 14.24% 14.53% 42.57%
New Orleans 137 13.70% 14.16% 14.47% 42.33%
Sacramento 76 7.60% 8.44% 9.46% 25.50%
Brooklyn* 75 7.50% 8.33% 9.36% 25.19%
Golden St.** 36 3.60% 4.16% 4.90% 12.66%
Toronto 35 3.50% 4.05% 4.77% 12.32%
Detroit 17 1.70% 2.00% 2.40% 6.10%
New Orleans 11 1.10% 1.30% 1.57% 3.97%
Portland 8 0.80% 0.95% 1.15% 2.90%
Milwaukee 7 0.70% 0.83% 1.01% 2.54%
Phoenix 6 0.60% 0.71% 0.87% 2.18%
Houston 5 0.50% 0.59% 0.72% 1.81%


* Pick may be conveyed to Portland

** Pick may be conveyed to Utah via Brooklyn

[Simbo Klice]

Would like to see my Rockets defy the odds and get Davis. Then again, I guess any team with lottery balls is saying that exact thing.

[Danny]

New Orleans #1, #2, or is the team sold already?

[Groundhog]

If Hornets win the lottery, we'll know that was the sweetner to get them sold. Would be over the moon if Cavs go #1 and get Davis, but if not I'll be happy with Kidd-Gilchrist or Beal. Definitely hoping we don't wind up with Drummond...... I'd rather take a chance on Robinson or Sullinger who have shown NBA ability.

[mckerney]

New Orleans is a lock to get the first pick. Timberwolves have almost always moved down in the lottery, it will be fitting that the first time they win it someone else owns the pick.

[miami_fan]

NBA Draft 2012: A Conspiracy Theorists' Guide to the Lottery | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1196247-nba-draft-2012-a-conspiracy-theorists-guide-to-the-lottery)

Making sure they cover all the bases.

[stevew]

i gather the bleacher report isn't big on proofreading?

[MikeVic]

What is the class like this year? I know Davis is consensus #1, but is there a strong top 5? Or something like after the first 3, the next 10 are kind of similar in terms of talent?

I'm just wondering what to root for with the Raptors. 12% change of a top 3 pick isn't high, so does it matter where they fall after that?

[Blackadar]

The 2012 NBA draft lottery will be broadcast at 8 p.m. on ESPN.
Dunno if this will format right.

Irving/Davis would be a great combo. Hopefully Stern fixes the lotto again. Tbh, I'm happy as long as Charlotte and Golden State both lose.



* No. of 1st 2nd 3rd Any top
Team Combos pick pick pick 3 pick
Charlotte 250 25.00% 21.47% 17.72% 64.19%
Washington 199 19.90% 18.78% 17.06% 55.74%
Cleveland 138 13.80% 14.24% 14.53% 42.57%
New Orleans 137 13.70% 14.16% 14.47% 42.33%
Sacramento 76 7.60% 8.44% 9.46% 25.50%
Brooklyn* 75 7.50% 8.33% 9.36% 25.19%
Golden St.** 36 3.60% 4.16% 4.90% 12.66%
Toronto 35 3.50% 4.05% 4.77% 12.32%
Detroit 17 1.70% 2.00% 2.40% 6.10%
New Orleans 11 1.10% 1.30% 1.57% 3.97%
Portland 8 0.80% 0.95% 1.15% 2.90%
Milwaukee 7 0.70% 0.83% 1.01% 2.54%
Phoenix 6 0.60% 0.71% 0.87% 2.18%
Houston 5 0.50% 0.59% 0.72% 1.81%


* Pick may be conveyed to Portland

** Pick may be conveyed to Utah via Brooklyn

Non-rigged chances:

Charlotte/NO = 99% chance.
Everyone else = 1%

:)

[Chief Rum]

I feel out of sorts with reality. I don't understand. I keep looking at the lottery team list, looking for my Clippers and they aren't there. I don't get it. Confused. I am going to have think about this one.

[stevew]

Well, the Clippers won last year. Don't get greedy.

[Simbo Klice]

What is the class like this year? I know Davis is consensus #1, but is there a strong top 5? Or something like after the first 3, the next 10 are kind of similar in terms of talent?

I'm just wondering what to root for with the Raptors. 12% change of a top 3 pick isn't high, so does it matter where they fall after that?

After Davis, it's still pretty agreed that it's stronger than last year top-to-bottom. Kidd-Gilchrist and Thomas Robinson out of Kansas are considered to be solid bets and Andre Drummond is a Center who is a boom-bust type. You have Bradley Beal from Florida and Doc Rivers' kid Austin at SG. In my eyes, PG is probably the only position that was better/deeper last year.

[molson]

I feel out of sorts with reality. I don't understand. I keep looking at the lottery team list, looking for my Clippers and they aren't there. I don't get it. Confused. I am going to have think about this one.

I'm still expecting the Clippers to win the lottery somehow.

[Chief Rum]

Well, the Clippers won last year. Don't get greedy.

Heh. You're welcome!

[whomario]

oh so many conspiracies to choose from :) Cavs getting paid pack for the painfull decicion ? Brooklyn getting a head start ? Houston getting compensated for the revoked trade ? New Orleans getting favoured as the NBAs team ? The Maloofs getting thrown a bone in Sacramento ?

No idea who i´d like to have that pick. So many shitty teams and terrible management on display there. Maybe Toronto ... (getting Valanciunas and Davis to play next to Bragnani, that would be one of the more interesting Front Courts in the league)

[LloydLungs]

Non-rigged chances:

Charlotte/NO = 99% chance.
Everyone else = 1%

:)

If my Hornets DON'T win the lottery, it means Stern rigged it against them because he knows everyone will think he rigged it for them if they win.

That made me dizzy.

[Neuqua]

lol

[Jas_lov]

They should just do it live to remove any doubt of riggage. Just put all the balls in a popper and pull them out live. This is just too shady.

[Young Drachma]

They should just do it live to remove any doubt of riggage. Just put all the balls in a popper and pull them out live. This is just too shady.

Yeah, it'd be more watchable that way, that's for sure.

Here's the lottery order:

1. Hornets
2. Bobcats
3. Wizards
4. Cleveland
5. Sacramento
6. Portland (from Brooklyn)
7. Golden State
8. Toronto
9. Detroit
10. New Orleans
11. Portland
12. Milwaukee
13. Phoenix

[stevew]

Either the WizTards or the BobCraps will take Andre Drummond. That should leave MKG, Robinson or Beal for the Cavs. I can deal with that.

Steep price for Gerald Wallace, that's for sure.

[larrymcg421]

I would not watch a league that was as rigged as people make the NBA out to be.

If it is rigged, then Stern is an idiot. The financial benefits are questionable at best and he's risking the entire foundation of the league.

How much do you think Stern is paying the guy who runs the lottery or the head of officials? It would have to be alot, because if I was either of those guys I would own his ass and anytime he said no I'd go straight to the media.

[miami_fan]

They should just do it live to remove any doubt of riggage. Just put all the balls in a popper and pull them out live. This is just too shady.

This is the genesis of the draft lottery conspiracy. See Ewing, Patrick + 1985
+ cold envelope.

[Matthean]

They should just do it live to remove any doubt of riggage. Just put all the balls in a popper and pull them out live. This is just too shady.

Even if I don't quite buy into the rigged aspect, I was shaking my head as soon as I saw who won. Somebody needs to ask Stern why there isn't a live lottery during an interview.

[DaddyTorgo]

This is the genesis of the draft lottery conspiracy. See Ewing, Patrick + 1985
+ cold envelope.

Common sense could solve this though. Do it in front of a live audience. Pick an audience member at random out of the crowd and let them pick the balls out of the hopper.

[The Jackal]

Either the WizTards or the BobCraps will take Andre Drummond. That should leave MKG, Robinson or Beal for the Cavs. I can deal with that.

Steep price for Gerald Wallace, that's for sure.

I'm pretty sure the Wiz would take both Beal and MKG over Drummond. At least I hope.

[Blackadar]

Non-rigged chances:

Charlotte/NO = 99% chance.
Everyone else = 1%

:)

AHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:lol:

[larrymcg421]

None of that would stop the accusations of rigging. There's absolutely nothing Stern could've done that would've convinced people that New Orleans was legitimately picked. If a random person drew balls then there'd still be the tinfoil hat crowd claiming the balls were situated in a way to guarantee the team would be picked, or that the person wasn't really random and is obviously on the NBA payroll.

Despite having the 4th best chance at the #1 pick and a 13% chance, it was impossible for New Orleans to legitimately win the #1 pick this year in the minds of some people.

[stevew]

I probably wouldn't have a problem if the Hornets were promised the #1 pick as part of the sale. But I hate that they fix stuff on the down low and then pretend like these were legitimate results. Stern is gonns be taking a lot of secrets to the grave.

(do I have to *wink*)

[stevew]

Also fairly certain that by virtue of winning the tiebreaker flip, the Hornets got the winning number combos that would have gone to the Cavs(if they lost).

[stevew]

I'm pretty sure the Wiz would take both Beal and MKG over Drummond. At least I hope.

Well, the good news is that MJ gets the opportunity to make a bad decision first.


MKG just got put in the worst case scenerio for his talents.

[stevew]

Dola-
Walker, Kidd Gilchrist, Henderson and Biyombo make for a hopeless core.

[RainMaker]

Mentioned this in the other thread, the Paul deal looks absolutely great right now. What a bright future that franchise has.

[miami_fan]

Common sense could solve this though. Do it in front of a live audience. Pick an audience member at random out of the crowd and let them pick the balls out of the hopper.

For a conspiracy theorist, that would be like the "random" audience member at the wrestling event.

I welcome any other ideas though.

[stevew]

Mentioned this in the other thread, the Paul deal looks absolutely great right now. What a bright future that franchise has.

Why? They got the #10 pick, Kaman, some dude with 3 names that barely plays, and will have to likely match a max offer for Eric Gordon.

[Young Drachma]

Why? They got the #10 pick, Kaman, some dude with 3 names that barely plays, and will have to likely match a max offer for Eric Gordon.

But they wouldn't have been in a position to get the #1 pick without tanking the whole year sans Paul.

[molson]

Isn't there an outside firm that authenticates the lottery procedure, and I think there's also representatives from every team in there when the numbers are drawn. Stern would have to bribe hundreds of people big money to rig a lottery, let alone a game. I don't see the advantage for the risk. Pretty much every franchise has had their turn as "team with high draft pick and promising future", it's not that unusual a scenario.

[stevew]

The Nets owner owns the security firm.

[molson]

The Nets owner owns the security firm.

So he's in on it, and the owner, and the firm, all get together and decide whose's going to win the lottery every year? That's just a dumb idea. How much better off is the NBA for having picked the lottery winners every year? How much money does that make them? Why risk a life in prison for that if ONE guy gets into any kind of legal trouble and decides to bargain this info.

Edit: And wait a minute, Mikhail Prokhorov owns Ernst & Young? I don't believe that's true. How much do you have to pay the 8th largest private company in the U.S. to go along with your scam?

[RainMaker]

Why? They got the #10 pick, Kaman, some dude with 3 names that barely plays, and will have to likely match a max offer for Eric Gordon.

What would the alternatives?

No trade - 1st round exit and lose Paul next year with a mediocre draft pick coming
Lakers - Late lottery pick and a couple old veterans on big deals
Clippers - Anthony Davis, Eric Gordon, 10th pick, and cap room

Where would you rather be? For one season of Chris Paul, they acquired the 10th pick in the draft and the best young SG in the league. It also allowed them to tank and get the #1 pick. You can't tell me they would be in a better position with those other deals.

[RainMaker]

They let some members of the press and a representative of each team in to the room to watch the procedure. Would take some incredible slight of hand to pull that off consistently.

[DaddyTorgo]

Edit: And wait a minute, Mikhail Prokhorov owns Ernst & Young? I don't believe that's true. How much do you have to pay the 8th largest private company in the U.S. to go along with your scam?

Not the point of this thread, but I couldn't resist answering this.

Ask Enron and Arthur Andersen.

[molson]

Not the point of this thread, but I couldn't resist answering this.

Ask Enron and Arthur Andersen.

Sure, large corporations can and have done horrible things, but this is just a straight-up singular offer of deception that doesn't make sense from either side's perspective. I think the moral decline of those companies is a much more complicated process than that. I don't think Stern would call up Kenneth Lay and say, "hey buddy, how much for you to rig the NBA draft lottery, I want the Hornets to win", and Lay says, "oh, half a billion in cash will be good", and then it just happens. Maybe I'm naive, but that just seems like crazy talk. It's just a different kettle of fish than making a bunch of false statements in SEC disclosures and hoping business turns around and you won't get caught. Is the NBA that much better off, as a league, at this moment, then they'd be if the Brooklyn Nets won instead? I'm sure we'd still be talking conspiracies if that happened.

[DaddyTorgo]

Why won't my noscript pick up the surfcanyon link to arthur andersen in my post above...wtf?

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

if you google 'ping pong lottery+fixed' there are a zillion responses talking about how easy they are to fix.

[Shkspr]

Why won't my noscript pick up the surfcanyon link to arthur andersen in my post above...wtf?

Noscript is rigged.

[RainMaker]

I think rigging the lottery would be almost impossible and would piss off a lot of teams. Not to mention the massive amounts of lawsuits. However, the league has done shady stuff in the past and will always have a cloud of suspicion over everything they do regardless of whether it's legit or not.

[larrymcg421]

And the amount that you would have to pay a company to do that would certainly be more than the financial advantage you get by fixing it.

And the question I always have, just like with the finals accusations, is what is the explanation for past events. They rigged Lakers/Kings, Mavs/Heat and Lakers/Celtics, but their decisions not to rig many other series make absolutely no sense.

Similarly, if this year is evidence theyre rigging the lottery, then what's the explanation for many other years they apparently didnt rig the lottery. They really wanted Portland and Seattle to win the lottery that year and let the most storied franchise/huge market Boston Celtics fall from 2nd to 5th?

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i tend to believe where there's smoke there's fire. how much fire? who knows.

i defy anyone to watch that ewing draft and claim strangeness wasn't afoot.

[Simbo Klice]

I get why the NBA needs a lottery, but do it live. This is ridiculous.

[RainMaker]

And the amount that you would have to pay a company to do that would certainly be more than the financial advantage you get by fixing it.

And the question I always have, just like with the finals accusations, is what is the explanation for past events. They rigged Lakers/Kings, Mavs/Heat and Lakers/Celtics, but their decisions not to rig many other series make absolutely no sense.

Similarly, if this year is evidence theyre rigging the lottery, then what's the explanation for many other years they apparently didnt rig the lottery. They really wanted Portland and Seattle to win the lottery that year and let the most storied franchise/huge market Boston Celtics fall from 2nd to 5th?

I don't think they rig the lottery. But the league has showed a bias toward players and teams. Doesn't mean they are fixing games in the general sense, but favoring individuals does effect the results. So those conspiracy theories will always be there as long as they do that (even in legitimate areas). There is a reason why you don't see people saying this stuff about other major sports. They are officiated much more evenly.

[larrymcg421]

I don't think they rig the lottery. But the league has showed a bias toward players and teams. Doesn't mean they are fixing games in the general sense, but favoring individuals does effect the results. So those conspiracy theories will always be there as long as they do that (even in legitimate areas). There is a reason why you don't see people saying this stuff about other major sports. They are officiated much more evenly.

I don't deny that superstars get the benefit of calls. I just don't think Stern is ordering this from his throne. It's just a natural thing for referees to do.

And you do see it in other leagues and there are complaints. See the complaints about Tom Brady or Maddux/Glavine.

[RainMaker]

They have the power to fire bad officials. As long as you don't discipline them for it, you condone it.

The superstar bias has gotten ridiculous over the last decade. And while you see a little of it in other sports, it's not like the NBA. It completely alters the sport (if you can call it that at certain times).

[LloydLungs]

In the words of someone on Twitter, "Why does the NBA cheat so that the Hornets win EVERYTHING? ;)"

I guess I get all the conspiracy stuff (though I think the Brooklyn Nets would've been much stronger motivation for the NBA than showering freakin' New Orleans with awesomeness). But, the Hornets had the third best chance out of 14 teams to win the thing in a lottery that isn't particularly strongly weighted towards the worst team.

Or maybe I'm horribly naive. Don't care. Sat through years of crap for this -- even when the Hornets were going good, the constant drumbeat was when are they going to leave, when is Paul going to leave, New Orleans sucks, it doesn't deserve a team, blah blah. Season ticket holder through the crap -- am now going to enjoy the hell out of this.

[Young Drachma]

I don't think they actually rig the lottery. But it cracks me up to allude to it.

[Young Drachma]

NBA's problematic ownership of Hornets opens door to rigged talk over draft lottery - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--nba-s-problematic-ownership-of-hornets-opens-door-to-rigged-talk-over-draft-lottery-20120531.html)

[RainMaker]

Congrats Lloyd, it should be a fun team to watch. I think Davis is going to be a stud. Will take a year or two to get acclimated but I think he's going to be a generational defender and a solid offensive player. On the high end you have to be looking at a Kevin Garnett type player.

You'll have to overpay for Gordon but small markets always need to to keep talent. He's still the best young SG in the league though. Hopefully can grab a nice rotation guy at 10 too. And I'm a huge Monty Williams fan.

[LloydLungs]

Congrats Lloyd, it should be a fun team to watch. I think Davis is going to be a stud. Will take a year or two to get acclimated but I think he's going to be a generational defender and a solid offensive player. On the high end you have to be looking at a Kevin Garnett type player.

You'll have to overpay for Gordon but small markets always need to to keep talent. He's still the best young SG in the league though. Hopefully can grab a nice rotation guy at 10 too. And I'm a huge Monty Williams fan.

I love Monty -- granted our offense with him hasn't been particularly imaginative, but he is absolutely fanatical about defense. Putting Anthony Davis on a Monty Williams coached team, I've gotta think we're going to be tough to score on from the get-go with him. His offense will take longer to come but I think it eventually will.

And yeah, we'll overpay for Gordon although I really think it's an overpay just because I'm not sure he can stay on the court. I was really impressed with him the brief amount of time I got to see him. Quick, gets to the hole very frequently, defends very well for an undersized guard. Am also glad because although the Hornets did a little tanking, for the most part they played honestly down the stretch, played Gordon, won a lot of games in the last month, and still got the prize.

[EagleFan]

This is the genesis of the draft lottery conspiracy. See Ewing, Patrick + 1985
+ cold envelope.

Bent envelope.

Watched that again and there certainly is a good case for it. All other envelopes are dropped flat into the drum (but 2), one of then is flung corner first into the side of the drum cuasing a bent corner. The envelope following that is thrown in oddly but flat against the back.

Then when drawn he flips down to the one with the bent corner, flips the pile over so that one is on top and takes that one. Then you can see him glance at the bent corner as he pulls it out.


May not be a conspiracy but there is enough there to make you think about it.

[RainMaker]

Was at the Hornets game in Chicago this year and while they didn't have much talent, they played incredibly hard and were well-coached. Didn't make dumb mistakes and were almost always in the right spots. Just didn't have the talent to pull through. If he can keep them playing the right away and up that talent level, they'll be really good.

[Crapshoot]

I don't think they actually rig the lottery. But it cracks me up to allude to it.

yup. And the NBA's officiating is so bad, that people buy these conspiracy theories in a way they don't about any other sport.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

it's not just the fans
The reaction of several league executives was part disgust, part resignation on Wednesday night. So many had predicted this happening, so many suspected that somehow, someway, the Hornets would walk away with Davis. That's the worst part for the NBA; these aren't the railings from the guy sitting at the corner tavern, but the belief of those working within the machinery that something undue happened here, that they suspect it happens all the time under Stern.
that articles great btw

[RainMaker]

May not be a conspiracy but there is enough there to make you think about it.

I honestly didn't even think it was a conspiracy. Thought everyone knew what went down that year. The league really needed Ewing in New York for more reasons than just making the Knicks better.

I still think it's crazy to think it's rigged now. Just too much money in the league at this point. Getting a player like Lebron James can increase the value of your franchise by hundreds of millions. The lawsuits would put the league under if it ever came to light today.

[Crapshoot]

it's not just the fans

that articles great btw

I agree. Its worrysome when other execs believe you are rigging things. David Stern did wonders for the NBA, but now he comes across as an angry bitter little man who is surrounded by yes-men, except when he's taking the crook heading the players union to the cleaners.

[RainMaker]

At least they aren't Serie A

[Groundhog]

I'm actually glad the Cavs fell to 4 as that should eliminate Drummond as an option. Kidd-Gilchrist looks a real possibility, although we'll probably Tristan Thompson-ize again and go with Perry Jones or John Henson.

[Radii]

I'm actually glad the Cavs fell to 4 as that should eliminate Drummond as an option. Kidd-Gilchrist looks a real possibility, although we'll probably Tristan Thompson-ize again and go with Perry Jones or John Henson.

Wait wat? Henson isn't a serious top 5 possibility is he???

[Groundhog]

Wait wat? Henson isn't a serious top 5 possibility is he???

Nope, but neither was Tristan Thompson last year. :D

Thompson was projected around the #10, same as Henson this year - at this stage, at least.

[RainMaker]

Saw an interesting trade idea thrown around for the Cavs. #4 pick for #6 and #11 from Portland.

[stevew]

The Cavs have never drafted good, except when they have the #1 pick

2011-Kyrie(1) TT(4)
2010-no pick
2009-Christian eyenga
2008-JJ Hickson
2007-No pick
2006- Shannon Brown
2005-No pick
2004-Luke Jackson
2003-LeBron James
2002-DeJaun Wagner(Did draft Boozer in 2nd, but ultimately fucked that up)
2001-Dasanga Diop
2000-Chris Mihm
1999-Andre Miller(good pick, but traded for Darius Miles), Trajan Langdon

[RainMaker]

You guys probably would have been better off drafting the Lithuanian guy last year instead of Thompson. Probably end up in the same spot but I think he'll be a better player than Thompson.

If I'm Cleveland, I'm praying Beal falls to me. That would be a nice backcourt going forward in a league where you live and die by it.

[whomario]

You guys probably would have been better off drafting the Lithuanian guy last year instead of Thompson. Probably end up in the same spot but I think he'll be a better player than Thompson.



I think so as well. Sure i have a slight natural bias towards international players, but that kid can flat out play and progressed very nicely this season. He averaged like 11/8 with 2 blocks in 23 MPG, shot 65% from the floor and 80% from the line in the Eurocup (2nd tier continental competition, team finished 3rd) and also the same numbers in the VTB league that includes the top eastern european teams (russia especially, again a 3rd place finish). He had 14/8/2 on 68%/80% in the Lithuanian league.
(overall that´s 62 club games on what is basically an nba-type schedule)

He is a great rebounder by any standard, good helpside defender and will benefit immensely from the more open space and more pick and roll play in the NBA, has been adding a bit of a midrange jumper that will only get better (he´s not exactly being encouraged to take those in Europe) while still going hard to the basket and finishing very well (also, if he can dunk he will. Not timid at all).
Has the footspeed to guard 4s as well i think.

I don´t see much reason why he wouldn´t average sth like 15/10 with 2 blocks per 36 next season, only thing that likely will hold his playing time back a little is a tendency to pick up fouls (but that has improved as well)

He is a pretty good fit next to Bargnani i´d say.

[RainMaker]

Speaking of international players, any info on Mirotic? Us Bulls fans are hoping he can be a good player in a year or two. Have heard only good things so far but not sure what his overall ceiling is.

[RedKingGold]

it's not just the fans

that articles great btw

Have to believe Dan Gilbert's son is one of these unnamed executives, along with a few season ticket reps from the Bobcats.

[whomario]

Speaking of international players, any info on Mirotic? Us Bulls fans are hoping he can be a good player in a year or two. Have heard only good things so far but not sure what his overall ceiling is.

Mirotic could step in this second and contribute IMO. For one, the guy can flat out score/shoot, he averaged 12.5 PPG in 23 minutes (remember, euro rotations almost allways go 10 deep and the games are shorter) in the Euroleague and shot 53/43/92.
He´s also good in Pick and Rolls and moving off the ball. Offensively i´d compare him to Ilyasova.
He´s not a great but decent rebounder who will get better with a little bit more muscle on his frame (he was a great rebounder in youth competitions so the skill is there) and kind of a tweener defensively though, but has improved there as well (f.e. he isn´t nearly as atrocious as a guy like Kleiza)
Should definitely turn out to be a 25 mpg guy on a good team if used correctly.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Have to believe Dan Gilbert's son is one of these unnamed executives, along with a few season ticket reps from the Bobcats.
you can only go to the little kid in a bow-tie well so often.

i don't know how much confidence i'd have in benson owning the team anyway. if it wasn't for katrina the saints would be in san antonio and his soon to be owner granddaughter may or may not be an entitled megalomaniac.

on the plus side maybe she'll move them to seattle

[JPhillips]

Saw an interesting trade idea thrown around for the Cavs. #4 pick for #6 and #11 from Portland.

A lot of Wizard fans would like to trade the #3 for Portland's picks.

[RainMaker]

I think Beal would be perfect for the Wizards at 3. Not sure they need more young guys to throw around Wall. At some point they need to hit a homerun with a pick and 3 is much better than 6 and 11.

[LloydLungs]

i don't know how much confidence i'd have in benson owning the team anyway. if it wasn't for katrina the saints would be in san antonio and his soon to be owner granddaughter may or may not be an entitled megalomaniac.

on the plus side maybe she'll move them to seattle

Although Benson is now held up as a hero here, those of us with memories know the guy is a tool. However, things have changed a great deal since Katrina. Now he's a tool that also owns all the real estate around the Dome and Arena. He owns a brand new sports/entertainment complex that needs those 43 NBA home dates. And he also owns a local TV station now. He has a lot more business interests anchoring him here than he did seven years ago, when it was really just the (much less profitable at the time) Saints.

The Hornets aren't moving to Seattle, or anywhere, for the foreseeable and reasonably distant future.

[stevew]

I hope the Cavs can pull some sort of head fake with the Bobcats and maybe trade #4 for #2 and Lasanga Flop's 7m player option. However, Charlotte is already so far under the salary floor

[albionmoonlight]

Although Benson is now held up as a hero here, those of us with memories know the guy is a tool. However, things have changed a great deal since Katrina. Now he's a tool that also owns all the real estate around the Dome and Arena. He owns a brand new sports/entertainment complex that needs those 43 NBA home dates. And he also owns a local TV station now. He has a lot more business interests anchoring him here than he did seven years ago, when it was really just the (much less profitable at the time) Saints.

The Hornets aren't moving to Seattle, or anywhere, for the foreseeable and reasonably distant future.

+1

If Tom Benson thought that he could make an extra nickle by personally burning the city of New Orleans to the ground and forcing all of the residents to go work in the salt mines, he would do it in a second. A rich used car salesman who owns a sports team is still a used car salesman.

But, he seems to now have enough financial interests in the New Orleans market that it just does not make sense for him to leave. For better or worse, he'll make more nickles in New Orleans than he will anywhere else.

I do think that he's an owner who will never pay a cent of luxury tax. And given a choice between a profitable team and a winning team, I know which way he would come out 10 times out of 10. So I'll follow the Hornets with that in mind.

And, of course, if Benson gets a good offer in a few years to sell the team to Seattle interests, that changes everything. A used car salesman who owns a sports team is still a used car salesman after all.

[LloydLungs]

I do think that he's an owner who will never pay a cent of luxury tax. And given a choice between a profitable team and a winning team, I know which way he would come out 10 times out of 10. So I'll follow the Hornets with that in mind.

I dunno, Benson has always had the cheap rep but he's always been willing to spend. It's just, until Drew Brees/Sean Payton, he's always spent the money on the wrong people.

And, of course, if Benson gets a good offer in a few years to sell the team to Seattle interests, that changes everything. A used car salesman who owns a sports team is still a used car salesman after all.

Anything's possible (especially since, at the risk of being indelicate, Benson will be in the ground in a few years). But tying New Orleans' two franchises together and tying those franchises to a whole sports/entertainment district downtown is very handy for keeping everyone's fortunes reliant on each other. Probably most importantly, a state government that is very friendly towards professional sports leagues has been our always-overlooked-by-national-media ace in the hole. If that changes down the road, who knows.

Regardless, WE GOT UNIBROW!!!!! AHHHHHHH!!!!!! Sorry.

[britrock88]

Saw an interesting trade idea thrown around for the Cavs. #4 pick for #6 and #11 from Portland.

I think the Bobcats would (should) jump at this deal with their pick at #2. That said, who would Portland want at #2 to make them give up an extra pick? This draft seems deeper than it is higher.

[Neon_Chaos]

Unibrow wants to shut down Kobe. :)

[Groundhog]

I definitely think this is a draft where I'd want a #6-#12-#24 other than just #2 or something. Lots of prospects who won't pan out as usual, but I think there are going to be some homeruns available in the teens and 20s.

[stevew]

I'm kind of hoping the Cavs go Thomas Robinson at #4, snag a shooter at 24 and snag Kevin Jones at the top of the 2nd. Energy bigs who control the glass almost always translate to the next level. Robinson will put up 20/12 in his sleep, and Jones will be a solid rotation player.

[Daimyo]

Now that they have the unibrow is NOLA more or less likely to match the inevitable Indy max contract offer to Gordon?

[Ramzavail]

its not rigged. if it was - they would have gifted "something" to Brooklyn.

[RainMaker]

Now that they have the unibrow is NOLA more or less likely to match the inevitable Indy max contract offer to Gordon?

I think they have to match. He is perhaps the best young SG in the league and you just aren't going to be able to get talent that often coming through New Orleans. Just can't let him go for nothing. Where else are they going to spend their money?

[Atocep]

I'm kind of hoping the Cavs go Thomas Robinson at #4, snag a shooter at 24 and snag Kevin Jones at the top of the 2nd. Energy bigs who control the glass almost always translate to the next level. Robinson will put up 20/12 in his sleep, and Jones will be a solid rotation player.

I think Kevin Jones' career will look similar to Kenny Thomas'. Their games are very similar. He's a nice player to grab early in the 2nd. There's talk someone may grab him late 1st though.

[Subby]

Can someone please start a FIREGRUNFELD website? Seriously. His ineptitude is absolutely stunning. For the first time in my life I tweeted an article to someone (Ted Leonsis in this case) just on the off chance they could see what a COCKSUCKING DOOFUS ASSHOLE they had recently extended as their general manager.

Here is the Hollinger take down (via insider):

Wizards make cap room disappear
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com

The good news for Washington Wizards fans is that general manager Ernie Grunfeld is building a winner. The bad news is that he's doing it in Minnesota and New Orleans.

Seriously, can anyone explain why this guy is still running a basketball team?

Grunfeld engineered yet another numbingly brutal trade today when he sent Rashard Lewis and a second-round pick to the New Orleans Hornets for Emeka Okafor and Trevor Ariza.

The deal is classic Grunfeld -- taking a "win now" approach with a team that's not even close to win-now mode, overpaying veterans, mismanaging the cap, and basically throwing slop at the wall and hoping something sticks.

Okafor and Ariza combine to make $42 million this year and next, soaking up all of Washington's cap space for this year and next. The departing Lewis was due $22.7 million, but only $13.9 million of that was guaranteed, so the Wizards ate close to $30 million in salary with this deal.
Trevor Ariza, Emeka Okafor
Emeka Okafor was once the No. 2 overall pick and Trevor Ariza has a ring, but both come at a hefty price tag.
This effectively takes the Wizards out of any potential free-agent deals beyond the midlevel; additionally, it also takes them out of amnesty auction bids, or cap space trades, or any other maneuvers that rebuilding teams typically take to begin stockpiling talent.

The big impact is a year from now. Okafor has an early termination option for $14.6 million after the season that he'd be nuts to exercise, while Ariza has a similar one for $7.7 million. Barring outrageous improvement by either, we can presume they're on Washington's books for 2013-14 at a cost of $22 million, compared with the $0 the Wizards owed Lewis; this puts them over the cap even if they amnesty Andray Blatche. (Another brilliant Grunfeld maneuver, by the way.) In fact, depending on how they use their exception money the next two summers, they may need to amnesty Blatche a year from now just to avoid the luxury tax.

For that, they get a middling but overpaid starting center, and a grossly overpaid wing defender with perhaps the worst shot selection in basketball. Alas, his only rival in that department will be starting alongside him. Which brings us to another reason to hate this trade: It did nothing to solve Washington's biggest problem, shooting. If anything, it exacerbated it.

This isn't quite as awful as the deal Grunfeld made two years ago when he traded the fifth overall pick to Minnesota for Mike Miller and Randy Foye, thinking those two were the key missing pieces separating his 19-win team from the championship, but it follows the same misguided logic. He has a bad team with a bad coach and obvious, glaring weaknesses, and somehow he thinks blowing his cap space on two middling, overpaid veterans will push the Wizards to the promised land.

By the way, if you're taking the "they had to make John Wall happy" angle, keep in mind that he is a restricted free agent, and that by design the Wizards have all the leverage in this negotiation. Basically, no team has ever lost a player it truly wanted to keep at this stage; it's only years later, when they could become unrestricted free agents, that we've seen players like LeBron James, Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Carmelo Anthony force their way out.

This wasn't supposed to happen when Ted Leonsis took over; he had followed a patient rebuilding program with the NHL's Washington Capitals and everybody expected the same for the Wizards. Instead he inexplicably extended Grunfeld's contract based on one halfway-decent month to end the season while half the teams around the Wizards were tanking, and then signed off on this travesty.

He overpaid for the assets, too. Remember, a few weeks ago people were talking about how New Orleans might use the 10th pick to persuade somebody to take Okafor and Ariza off its hands. Instead the Hornets are keeping the 10th pick and got rid of both contracts. How hard do you suppose they laughed when Washington agreed to throw in a second-round pick too?

As for the Hornets, this was a wondrous move that offloaded two problem contracts, cleaned out room in a crowded frontcourt for rookie Anthony Davis, and gives them almost unlimited cap room going forward. Once they waive Lewis, the Hornets will be far enough under the cap that they could amnesty Jarrett Jack, offer Deron Williams a max contract, and still re-sign Eric Gordon.

It's unlikely D-Will would take that bait, but the real fun comes a year later when Jack and Lewis are off New Orleans' books entirely; if the Hornets offer Gordon about $10 million a year, they would still have nearly $30 million in cap space. Of course, they still need to use this space to get actual players, but between trades and free agency they are in position to put a potent team around Davis fairly quickly. Also, some chap named Chris Paul will be a free agent next summer if he doesn't extend his contract.

Grunfeld said the Wizards are better than they were yesterday, and in a very narrow sense he's correct: This deal does incrementally improve his roster. But there are far more efficient ways to produce the same improvement, and instead Grunfeld has essentially handcuffed the franchise to two more years of mediocrity so he could win a news conference.

[Young Drachma]

Good to know some NBA GMs are no better than the dude in your fantasy league. Except, Grunfeld gets paid more. But reading about the reaction to this trade elsewhere, seems that the idea is they wanted to get something for Lewis rather than paying him to do nothing. And there is some consensus that they only way to get John Wall to stay in DC is to manage to build some kind of playoff team even if it's just an 8th seed squad. So that's what this is aimed to do with, coupled with the earlier Nene deal.

I guess we'll see. But I do believe the idea that it's not as if D.C. was going to attract any free agents anyway, so they needed to do something. Not sure if this is it, but...I can at least see that argument. But Hollinger clearly isn't happy with the move.

[Lathum]

It doesn't excuse the move but are the Wizards really a destination team for free agents anyway?

It seems to be the NBA is heading in a direction where a handful of markets, Miami, NY, LA, Dallas, Chicago, are where all the superstars are going to want to sign leaving all the other teams fighting for scraps. So what good is all the cap room if you aren't going to sign a top guy with it anyway?

[molson]

Nothing says "win now" more than Emeka Okafor and Trevor Ariza.

[Subby]

They could have had Emeka Okafor for peanuts. The problem is they are trading something of significant value in the NBA (cap relief in the form of an expiring contract) for something of little value (old, broken down, overpaid Okafor).

This is Grunfeld's MO. He can't be patient and he doesn't know how to build a winning team. He's a fucking clown.

[Young Drachma]

Haha...glad they're not my team.

[RedKingGold]

The problem is they are trading something of significant value in the NBA (cap relief in the form of an expiring contract) for something of little value (old, broken down, overpaid Okafor).

This. Perhaps the only thing more valuable in the NBA is a top lottery pick in a solid draft.

[stevew]

I liked the move for Washington. They were going to pay 13m for nothing, and instead turned it into 2 borderline starters/rotation players. The culture of that team was awful. Cap space in the NBA is not as valuable as it was a few years ago. So many teams are under the cap...even if Washington just cuts Lewis who would they spend the money on? I suppose they could have saved it and spent 4/45 for Louis Williams or attempted to overpay Omet Asik. These guys only have 2 seasons on their deals, and I bet Ariza opts out if he has a good year. Washington is not a free agent destination in this era. If they play competitively, they might become one.

[stevew]

I wouldnt call Okafor broken down. He had one season where he missed some time, and NO was clearly in tank mode last year. Guys who average close to a double double and block shots are pretty rare.

[stevew]

Hollinger surmises that Eric Gordon will only get 10M a year? I see someone maxing that guy out.

[Chief Rum]

Hollinger surmises that Eric Gordon will only get 10M a year? I see someone maxing that guy out.

Agreed. Hollinger's nuts if he thinks a 20 ppg scorer who is still young is going to sign for $10 M per.

[RedKingGold]

Hollinger surmises that Eric Gordon will only get 10M a year? I see someone maxing that guy out.

He's a restricted FA, so I think there's caps there.

[stevew]

I think max is about 14.5M a year plus raises. Something like 62m/4 years. It wouldn't surprise me if Hibbert gets maxed out as well.

[stevew]

I feel for Washington though. Management should have been changed out by now.

[miami_fan]

I thought the consensus plan for teams who could not attract the top free agents was to build through the draft, maintain cap room, then use that cap room to pick off good players that teams without cap space can not keep? I understand trying to change the culture but what have Okafor and/or Ariza done that prove they will be bringing the right culture? Bad move

[stevew]

It's not like they are bound to those guys for Andre Blatche type lengths. You can trade either as expiring in a year. There's 13 teams with significant cap room this year, and many have upwards of 20m available.

This free agency crop is also pretty sad.

Deron Williams, PG, New Jersey Nets
Steve Nash, PG, Phoenix Suns
Eric Gordon, SG, New Orleans Hornets*
Nicolas Batum, SF, Portland Trail Blazers*
Ryan Anderson, PF, Orlando Magic*
Tim Duncan, F/C, San Antonio Spurs
Roy Hibbert, C, Indiana Pacers*
Brook Lopez, C, New Jersey Nets*
Chris Kaman, C, New Orleans Hornets
JaVale McGee, C, Denver Nuggets*

those guys top the FA pool and most of them are restricted.

[DaddyTorgo]

Batum absolutely kills it for me in NBA2k11.

I'm just saying...lol

[Arles]

What FA does Hollinger think is going to go to Washington? Chances are Washington would have been all dressed up with nowhere to go next offseason.

I remember when Hollinger lauded the Nets for getting a bunch of "cap space" a few years back and then they spent it on Travis Outlaw and other garbage because all the good players extended/went elsewhere.

Cap space is great in NY, LA and Miami, but it doesn't do you much good when no one wants to come to your team. Get the best players you can via trade on short contracts and try to improve. Then, in 2 seasons, maybe they are a 40+ win team with Wall in his prime, a few more picks and ready to attract FAs with the cap space.

[Arles]

It's not like they are bound to those guys for Andre Blatche type lengths. You can trade either as expiring in a year. There's 13 teams with significant cap room this year, and many have upwards of 20m available.

This free agency crop is also pretty sad.

Deron Williams, PG, New Jersey Nets
Steve Nash, PG, Phoenix Suns
Eric Gordon, SG, New Orleans Hornets*
Nicolas Batum, SF, Portland Trail Blazers*
Ryan Anderson, PF, Orlando Magic*
Tim Duncan, F/C, San Antonio Spurs
Roy Hibbert, C, Indiana Pacers*
Brook Lopez, C, New Jersey Nets*
Chris Kaman, C, New Orleans Hornets
JaVale McGee, C, Denver Nuggets*

those guys top the FA pool and most of them are restricted.
Williams, Duncan and Nash aren't going to Washington. Hibbert will get matched, as will Gordon, Anderson and McGee. So, you are left with hoarding cap space for a small chance you can land Batum, Brook Lopez or Chris Kaman. Hollinger is right, you have to sell out and stink to get a chance at those stars. :)

[Daimyo]

Cap space isn't just for signing FAs. The undesirable teams should use to acquire draft picks and or other useful players in return for taking albatrosses. WAS should have demanded 1(10) as part of the deal.

[Subby]

What FA does Hollinger think is going to go to Washington? Chances are Washington would have been all dressed up with nowhere to go next offseason.

I remember when Hollinger lauded the Nets for getting a bunch of "cap space" a few years back and then they spent it on Travis Outlaw and other garbage because all the good players extended/went elsewhere.

Cap space is great in NY, LA and Miami, but it doesn't do you much good when no one wants to come to your team. Get the best players you can via trade on short contracts and try to improve. Then, in 2 seasons, maybe they are a 40+ win team with Wall in his prime, a few more picks and ready to attract FAs with the cap space.
The point is Washington overpaid when they didn't need to overpay. Lewis' expiring deal is a valuable trade chit from which they could have received more value than what they got. Basically they got New Orleans off the hook for two years of salary for two untradeable players.

Build through the draft, finish through FA. Like SAO or OKC. Of course dumbass Grunfeld traded top 5 picks twice for Antawn Jamison, Randy Foye and Mike Miller.

[Subby]

Also - New Jersey did the right thing by giving themselves the cap flexibility to sign a free agent. Just because they didn't get the desired result doesn't mean they took the wrong approach.

[molson]

Doesn't Washington have the potential to be something more then just a bad franchise that shouldn't bother trying because nobody will ever want to play there? It's not exactly a small market, it's bigger than Dallas or Miami, and its on the east coast, in a part of the country that likes basketball. I know we're so used to them being irrelevant, but couldn't they be a bigger deal if managed competently?

Edit: I take that back, it's not bigger than Dallas, but it's slightly bigger than Miami. It's the #7 media market.

[larrymcg421]

How could Washington be a bigger market than Miami? The NBA hasn't fixed anything for them yet.

[Arles]

Cap space isn't just for signing FAs. The undesirable teams should use to acquire draft picks and or other useful players in return for taking albatrosses. WAS should have demanded 1(10) as part of the deal.
I'm not sure you're going to be able to get that much better on players than what Washington got. Most good players available for a dump are on longer contracts. The 1-2 year contract guys are usual fairly marginal. So, if you are Was and figure the 2014 offseason is your "sweet spot", you don't want to take on a slightly better player signed through that offseason.

The reality is that no one of any note was going to Washington the next two offseasons. So, upgrade your team slightly, draft well and set yourself up to maybe be player in '14. Remember, Washington just got Nene. If Ariza can return to his Houston form of 2010 (15 PPG, 5 REB, 4 ast, 34% 3s) and Okafor can be the 10-10 guy with 2 blocks he was before getting hurt, their team will be better the next two seasons. If not, you added one additional year of salaries and will still have cap space in 2014. Lewis was completely useless and turning him into two potential starters on 2-year deals isn't a terrible move.

I just get frustrated by the ESPN/Stats guys who view cap space as this "holy grail" of NBA value. If there are no likely FAs coming to your team in the next two offseasons, cap space isn't that valuable unless you want more picks/young players (something Washington has plenty of right now). Remember, many guys who get dumped may have no-trades and block a deal to Washington even if you find one. Heck, maybe Ariza and Okafor play decent this season and you can trade their expiring next season for better player. Lewis was only going to be a dump and I doubt you get better than Ariza/Okafor.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm not sure you're going to be able to get that much better on players than what Washington got. ... Lewis was only going to be a dump and I doubt you get better than Ariza/Okafor.

This.

[JPhillips]

Improving to late lottery/8 seed is worse than staying on the bottom.

[Arles]

Build through the draft, finish through FA. Like SAO or OKC. Of course dumbass Grunfeld traded top 5 picks twice for Antawn Jamison, Randy Foye and Mike Miller.
OKC got lucky. The had the #2 pick in a year where a franchise player was there. If they have the #2 pick this year, they still stink. Harden was a nice pick, but saying that Cleveland, SA or OKC "built through the draft" to get James, Duncan and Durant is silly. They were fortunate to have a top 2 pick in a year where a franchise player is there. Minnesota, Charlotte, Milwaukee and others have been in the same situation and just weren't lucky enough to have that kind of draft.

If your plan for Washington is to "hold out" for a top 2-3 pick that ends up being Durant, you are basically stinking and praying for the next 5+ years. Indiana, Philly, Memphis, Phoenix, the Hornets a few years back and others have put successful teams on the court using their cap space to land "washed up" players on short term contracts like West, Chandler, Grant Hill, Z-Bo etc. Atleast you can incrementally improve to a point where FAs will want to come to your team.

[stevew]

It also has to be hard to cut Lewis a 13m check to go away. Especially if the are contemplating amnestying Blatche.

[Subby]

That's a fair assessment. I feel a little better.

Thanks. :)

[stevew]

Improving to late lottery/8 seed is worse than staying on the bottom.

So your fans can get in the habit of ignoring the team for 5 years at a time?

[Subby]

It also has to be hard to cut Lewis a 13m check to go away. Especially if the are contemplating amnestying Blatche.
Lewis is below zero value. Cutting him saves them money over what he would gave made had he played this season.

[Arles]

Also - New Jersey did the right thing by giving themselves the cap flexibility to sign a free agent. Just because they didn't get the desired result doesn't mean they took the wrong approach.
The point was no good FA was going to go there. They were moving in a few years, the fan base was apathetic in NJ, the team was awful and they would have been better off taking on Ariza-type guys on short term deals via trade than giving the prettiest pig that would go there in FA 5+ seasons.

Doesn't Washington have the potential to be something more then just a bad franchise that shouldn't bother trying because nobody will ever want to play there? It's not exactly a small market, it's bigger than Dallas or Miami, and its on the east coast, in a part of the country that likes basketball. I know we're so used to them being irrelevant, but couldn't they be a bigger deal if managed competently?
It's not just market size, it's franchise attractiveness. Memphis could have done the Chris Wallace part 2 and sold off everyone a few years back and prayed D-Will came to their city. Or, they could be smart and trade for undervalued players with cap space willing the player there (a la Z-Bo and others). Knowing the attractiveness of your team to FAs is a key part of cap management. What works for Heat with Wade isn't going to work for the Bucks, T-Wolves, Wizards or Grizzlies.

[Arles]

Improving to late lottery/8 seed is worse than staying on the bottom.
That's the Bill Simmons/Hollinger theory that rarely works. Milwaukee, Charlotte, Sacramento, Golden State, New Jersey and others have been trying it for years and still stink.

Tell that to Memphis, Indiana and Philly who took on veteran contracts with their cap space and were all in the playoffs. Would you rather be Charlotte with a ton of "cap space" no FAs will be interested in or Indiana who tried to get slightly better each season and now has a nice mix of Vets and younger players to compete.

[Subby]

OKC got lucky. The had the #2 pick in a year where a franchise player was there. If they have the #2 pick this year, they still stink. Harden was a nice pick, but saying that Cleveland, SA or OKC "built through the draft" to get James, Duncan and Durant is silly. They were fortunate to have a top 2 pick in a year where a franchise player is there. Minnesota, Charlotte, Milwaukee and others have been in the same situation and just weren't lucky enough to have that kind of draft.

If your plan for Washington is to "hold out" for a top 2-3 pick that ends up being Durant, you are basically stinking and praying for the next 5+ years. Indiana, Philly, Memphis, Phoenix, the Hornets a few years back and others have put successful teams on the court using their cap space to land "washed up" players on short term contracts like West, Chandler, Grant Hill, Z-Bo etc. Atleast you can incrementally improve to a point where FAs will want to come to your team.
Well I think you make your own luck to some degree. You still have to make a commitment to build through youth, take your lumps, and try not take shortcuts. OKC is more than just two players. They had a plan and stuck with it, drafting Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Durant. They could have spazzed at any point and traded one of those picks for a "proven" vet, but they didn't.

[molson]

It's not just market size, it's franchise attractiveness. Memphis could have done the Chris Wallace part 2 and sold off everyone a few years back and prayed D-Will came to their city. Or, they could be smart and trade for undervalued players with cap space willing the player there (a la Z-Bo and others). Knowing the attractiveness of your team to FAs is a key part of cap management. What works for Heat with Wade isn't going to work for the Bucks, T-Wolves, Wizards or Grizzlies.

What makes a franchise attractive? Wouldn't say, being well-run, being successful on the court, spending money, and being in a big market do it? Obviously there's chicken and the egg thing with the winning, I'm just not sure Washington is doomed to forever be a dud franchise like the others in your list (all of which are in small markets). Are there other teams in top 10 markets that you would see as just hopelessly unattractive no matter what they do?

[Arles]

Well I think you make your own luck to some degree. You still have to make a commitment to build through youth, take your lumps, and try not take shortcuts. OKC is more than just two players. They had a plan and stuck with it, drafting Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Durant. They could have spazzed at any point and traded one of those picks for a "proven" vet, but they didn't.
I'm not fan of trading high picks for vets as a struggling team, but I do like using expirings and cap space. That's what OKC did to start this when they moved Ray Allen, took on Kurt Thomas from the Suns with cap space (and gained two picks) and other older guys. There's nothing wrong with trading your cap space for incremental improvement guys on short contracts when you are rebuilding. Kurt Thomas wasn't that great, but they got a first to take him and he played OK. So, then a year later they were able to move his expiring deal to SA for another pick and player. Washington may be doing the exact same thing With Okafor next season. They now have options. With Lewis, they had a terrible player with an expiring contract they had to move soon.

[Daimyo]

No star FA is ever going to Indiana, they never tanked for or lucked into a super-stud, and yet they still built a competitive team. They did by drafting well (Granger, Hibbert, George, and Hanborough -- none higher than 10th), patiently waiting for and then making advantageous trades (Collison, Hill, Barbosa), and being choosy in FA (West).

You can't do the latter two well unless you always have surplus cap space available to be agile enough to respond when the opportunities arrise. If this was the best use of cap space they had available, they should have waited. They've still got a few years buffer for Wall.

[Arles]

What makes a franchise attractive? Wouldn't say, being well-run, being successful on the court, spending money, and being in a big market do it? Obviously there's chicken and the egg thing with the winning, I'm just not sure Washington is doomed to forever be a dud franchise like the others in your list (all of which are in small markets). Are there other teams in top 10 markets that you would see as just hopelessly unattractive no matter what they do?
If Washington built their team up to be a 40-50 win team over the next 2-3 years, they'd be a lot more attractive. Getting Okafor and Ariza for the corpse of Lewis gives them a better chance of getting there quicker than trading Lewis for the #10 pick in the draft and crap. Plus, both guys are only on 2-year deals.

[Arles]

No star FA is ever going to Indiana, they never tanked for or lucked into a super-stud, and yet they still built a competitive team. They did by drafting well (Granger, Hibbert, George, and Hanborough -- none higher than 10th), patiently waiting for and then making advantageous trades (Collison, Hill, Barbosa), and being choosy in FA (West).

You can't do the latter two well unless you always have surplus cap space available to be agile enough to respond when the opportunities arrise. If this was the best use of cap space they had available, they should have waited. They've still got a few years buffer for Wall.
It's funny you bring up Barbosa, because that's very similar to what Washington did here. Barbosa was struggling on Toronto and scheduled to make $7 mil this last season and $8 million next season. Looks a lot like Trevor Ariza, to be honest. They traded a non-performing expiring asset (cap space) to get 2 years of Barbosa. Now, they have another expiring this season who is actually playing decent. Washington took a non-performing expiring asset (Lewis) and turned it into 2 years of Ariza and Okafor. If either plays well, they have a ton of additional options and a better team this year for their fans.

You will never get better players via FA unless you improve. Ariza and Okafor are top 7 guys on Washington and will make them better next season. Plus, you will now have 2 expiring assets next offseason that are a heck of a lot better players than Lewis.

[stevew]

Ariza and Okafor should both be motivated for their one last big contract. A good season by either might be enough for them to opt out. Okafor probably trades 1/14 for 4/32(and going to a place he wants to be). Ariza might opt out for 3 or 4 years at the midlevel. Guys routinely hate playing on a one year deal.

[Arles]

Ariza and Okafor should both be motivated for their one last big contract. A good season by either might be enough for them to opt out. Okafor probably trades 1/14 for 4/32(and going to a place he wants to be). Ariza might opt out for 3 or 4 years at the midlevel. Guys routinely hate playing on a one year deal.
A guy willing to opt out makes for even a more enticing contract to trade.

[RainMaker]

What makes a franchise attractive? Wouldn't say, being well-run, being successful on the court, spending money, and being in a big market do it? Obviously there's chicken and the egg thing with the winning, I'm just not sure Washington is doomed to forever be a dud franchise like the others in your list (all of which are in small markets). Are there other teams in top 10 markets that you would see as just hopelessly unattractive no matter what they do?

Most small market teams are going to struggle to attract major free agents. It's why they rarely win NBA titles. I think if you are small market, you have to build through the draft and fill in with undervalued veteran pieces.

Washington is in a weird spot. They have to put competent players around Wall at some point if they want him to develop. But these players don't necessarily have good contracts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Are there other teams in top 10 markets that you would see as just hopelessly unattractive no matter what they do?

I'd think Atlanta has to be close to hopelessly unattractive for superstars.

edit: unless they're into strip clubs, hookers, etc

[chadritt]

Which is weird to me. I would think Atlanta would be a fairly attractive location. Good weather most of the year but it has actual seasons, things arent as expensive as other big cities so an athlete could still afford a crazy lifestyle, the fans latch on to superstars and winners but you can usually still walk around town without getting mobbed, pretty good night life, etc. Ive never understood why Atlanta didnt attract bigger Free Agents, although I guess the Braves got a couple of big ones back in the day.

[RainMaker]

The teams in Atlanta don't get enough national coverage to accomodate most of these guys who become massive narcissists early on.

[Cuckoo]

Well I think you make your own luck to some degree. You still have to make a commitment to build through youth, take your lumps, and try not take shortcuts. OKC is more than just two players. They had a plan and stuck with it, drafting Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Durant. They could have spazzed at any point and traded one of those picks for a "proven" vet, but they didn't.

Yeah, Durant was certainly luck, but if I remember correctly, both Harden and Westbrook were taken several spots higher than what most people expected. Ibaka turned out to be a steal late in the first round. Combined with some good trades, it shows a pattern of quality player evaluation, much more than luck.

[Arles]

Without Durant, OKC is about where Denver or Atlanta is competitively. Even with all those good moves, you need to luck into a superstar to have a chance in a less desirable market.

[Young Drachma]

And you have to move your team to an undesirable market. That helps too. ;)

[stevew]

Supposedly Harrison Barnes has a top 4 promise. If it's to the Cavs, I might just stop watching basketball altogether.

[Groundhog]

Supposedly Harrison Barnes has a top 4 promise. If it's to the Cavs, I might just stop watching basketball altogether.

Oh dear. I honestly think that this is a perfect draft to pick #4 because, needing a wing, either Kidd-Gilchrist or Beal is going to be there. Worst case, it's Robinson. If we fuck this up with another Tristan Thompson-esque selection.... argh. I just know it's going to happen. Thank god we didn't just trade for Okafor and Ariza.

[Daimyo]

It's funny you bring up Barbosa, because that's very similar to what Washington did here. Barbosa was struggling on Toronto and scheduled to make $7 mil this last season and $8 million next season. Looks a lot like Trevor Ariza, to be honest. They traded a non-performing expiring asset (cap space) to get 2 years of Barbosa. Now, they have another expiring this season who is actually playing decent. Washington took a non-performing expiring asset (Lewis) and turned it into 2 years of Ariza and Okafor. If either plays well, they have a ton of additional options and a better team this year for their fans.

Except his contract ended this year (he's a URFA right now -- unless everything else I read about it was wrong) so it was only a half-season rental, they already knew they were a playoff team and had a shot that year, and they didn't also have to take on a clearly negative-value Okefar type guy with him.

Other than that they're similar I guess.... ?

[SackAttack]

Supposedly Harrison Barnes has a top 4 promise. If it's to the Cavs, I might just stop watching basketball altogether.

A top 4 promise makes no sense unless it's the #4 team, or a team above that has resolved to trade down no lower than #4 overall. A top 5 or top 10 is sufficiently generic that, who knows. But top 4 is awfully specific.

[stevew]

He refused to work out for the Kings is all I know.

Cavs should trade with Charlotte and jump ahead of Washington and take their preference of MKG/Beal.

[Radii]

He refused to work out for the Kings is all I know.


Barnes isn't out there to play basketball man, he's building his brand. You can't build a brand in Sacramento.

[stevew]

The union won arbitration on guys like Billips, Lin and Novak which allowed their bird rights to be transferable. Really big win for the Knicks IMO.

[stevew]

The Cavs/Bobcats deal for Beal might actually happen. If we actually think he's Ray Allen #2, I have no problem with giving up #24.

[Atocep]

The Cavs/Bobcats deal for Beal might actually happen. If we actually think he's Ray Allen #2, I have no problem with giving up #24.

It looks like Beal goes to Washington if he's there at #3 and the Bobcats want Thomas Robinson who doesn't make any sense at all for the Wizards now. It's a trade that would help both teams.

Teams are supposedly loving Barnes' workouts so who knows where he ends up. His offensive game reminds me a bit of Glenn Robinson, but at least the Big Dog grabbed a rebound every now and then. Barnes is rather 1 dimensional right now.

[Subby]

Le Wiz should be ecstatic with MKG or Beal. Wish we had taken Kawhi last draft. :\

[stevew]

Yeah, fuck taking Tristan Thompson 15 spots early. We should have taken Leonard as well.

[Groundhog]

Looks like Sullinger has now moved down to mid-to-late 1st round steal territory. I don't know the details of his back issues and he's certainly not a "can't miss" prospect, but I think he'll be able to score around the basket in the NBA if he can stay healthy.

[Groundhog]

Also, really hoping Cavs swing a deal for the #2. Would love to see Beal in a Cavs uniform next season. MKG is a fair consolation prize, but I think Beal is a better fit next to Irving - someone to stop the defenders hedging over to Irving on pick-and-rolls.

[stevew]

I think my dream offseason is trade and get Beal, max out and get Hibbert, and either get Batum for 12m or make Portland match. I'm tired of all the losing. And we need to discard Boobie like the trash he is.

[Atocep]

There's a rumor that Kevin Jones got a late first round promise. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but I'd love to see him get into a good situation.

I really think people are going a bit overboard on Damian Lillard. I don't think there's a PG in this draft that belongs in the top 15.

I also think Quincy Miller will be a better pro than Perry Jones.

[stevew]

Rebounder/Effort guys like Jones usually translate pretty well into rotation players.

[Bad-example]

As much as the NBA is a completely fucked up hot mess, I'm still pretty curious what Jerry West and the Warriors can come up with.

[Groundhog]

As far as guards not named Beal, I've never seen Lillard play (like many others), but yeah, from what I read, I'm sceptical he's a top-10 selection. I think I'd take a flyer on Austin Rivers over Lillard. I think Lillard and Rivers potentially have a higher ceiling than, say, Lamb, but I think Lamb is pretty much a sure-fire rotation guy, which isn't true for Rivers/Lillard, who IMO will boom or bust. I don't know much about Waiters but I'm always skeptical about guys I don't hear much about until the time leading up to the draft. His college production certainly doesn't match his draft stock - if he were a freshman, maybe.

For the SFs, I think the ranking right now would be MKG #1, Barnes #2, then there's a drop off. I really like MKG and on any team outside of Kentucky he would've had better numbers, but having said that, it's a concern that he ranked 7th on the team in terms of shot %. For a pick as high in the draft as he's going to go, I'm not sure that MKG will ever be "The Man". Barnes is not a guy I have a lot of confidence in, but I feel he's got a good chance to be a Carmelo-esque type scorer as an NBA player.

Around the middle of the draft I like Terrence Jones and Sullinger, and think both could log good minutes for the right teams as rookies. Royce White looks like a pretty interesting prospect too, with a versatile set of skills (...and versatile set of off-the-court issues).

[Groundhog]

As much as the NBA is a completely fucked up hot mess, I'm still pretty curious what Jerry West and the Warriors can come up with.

If Bogut* and Curry can stay healthy for most of the year, the roster is certainly better balanced this season. Bogut-Lee is a good high/low option and should complement each other quite well, while having a more traditional PG/SG setup with Curry-Thompson will help on both ends of the court. Thompson showed glimpses and was, IIRC, one of the better rated spot-up shooters in the league as a rookie.

Best case, 7 or 8 seed. Worst case, business as usual.

* hey, an Aussie can dream... :D

[bhlloy]

Lillard's comparison seems to be Mo Williams. That's scary enough to make me take Marshall or whoever else if you force me to choose a PG at gunpoint.

I think the kid out of Cal State Long Beach is pretty interesting. I can see him going in the first after Isiah Thomas Jr last year, somebody is going to take a chance on him and try and recreate the magic

[Mota]

As a Raptors fan I'm pretty disenchanted with the NBA. Seeing Bosh leave to join a fabricated team was pretty sad, and they had nobody ready to step up and take his place.
Two years later they still have nobody on their team. I don't see any future stars being developed right now. Hopefully they will get someone good in the draft.

[DougW]

I think LeBron has to go first, then definitely Darko. After that, I think I'd go with Anthony and then Bosh. At #5, maybe DWade, but - he's only 6'4.

[miami_fan]

I think LeBron has to go first, then definitely Darko. After that, I think I'd go with Anthony and then Bosh. At #5, maybe DWade, but - he's only 6'4.

I see what you did there.

[MikeVic]

As a Raptors fan I'm pretty disenchanted with the NBA. Seeing Bosh leave to join a fabricated team was pretty sad, and they had nobody ready to step up and take his place.
Two years later they still have nobody on their team. I don't see any future stars being developed right now. Hopefully they will get someone good in the draft.

Yeah I'm with you. I don't even care for the draft, I don't have any faith in the team from top to bottom. I do not like Bargnani, and who else is there? DeRozan seemed to regress, Ed Davis is OK but not great, there's just a lack of talent.

[spleen1015]

Nice. Bird is going to resign from the Pacers 2 days before the draft.

Let's see. The guy guided your team back from suckitude after there were a bunch of thugs on your team. You were the 3rd best team in the East last year because of the moves made by Bird. You decide to let him walk instead of giving him a 3 year deal?

Thanks Herb.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

deep thoughts-

the nba should adopt mls' dp rule where you can pay one player whatever the fuck you want and he only counts 15%(or whatever) against the cap.

i don't buy the beal/ray allen comparisons.

i wouldn't draft fab melo.

i would draft dion waiters and austin rivers. they're both irrational confidence guys.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Nice. Bird is going to resign from the Pacers 2 days before the draft.

Let's see. The guy guided your team back from suckitude after there were a bunch of thugs on your team. You were the 3rd best team in the East last year because of the moves made by Bird. You decide to let him walk instead of giving him a 3 year deal?

Thanks Herb.
executive of the year too. that sucks.

[Logan]

Rockets trade Budinger to Minny for the 18th pick. That gives them #14, #16, and #18.

[whomario]

Rockets trade Budinger to Minny for the 18th pick. That gives them #14, #16, and #18.

I could have sworn that the Rockets were looking to offload one of their picks. Well, maybe they figure that they can also offload 2 picks for future considerations and figured they didn´t need Budinger anymore.

For the Twolves i think Budinger is better than anybody available at No18 and more proven, so that´s a solid trade. Sure he doesn´t solve their problems and doesn´t even fill a huge need (too slow laterally to really guard 2s and can´t create his own shot) but neither could have the 18th pick i guess.

[whomario]

You decide to let him walk instead of giving him a 3 year deal?

.

Where did you get this from ? I was under the impression that it was Bird who didn´t want to commit to anything long term and was himself contemplating wether or not he´d be back during the regular season at times (and in a "i don´t know if i want to continue" way)

I´ve seen it suggested that it´s health related.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, I was about to say, I'm hearing Bird's got health issues.

[Logan]

The guy from Draftexpress.com broke the Budinger deal and says that Houston has offered Lowry, the #14, and the #16 to Sacramento for Tyreke Evans and the #5.

[jbergey22]

Looks like Sullinger has now moved down to mid-to-late 1st round steal territory. I don't know the details of his back issues and he's certainly not a "can't miss" prospect, but I think he'll be able to score around the basket in the NBA if he can stay healthy.


He uses his body well but he releases a lot of his shots from a low angle. I could see him being a Al Horford type if he could develop a decent midrange game.

[jbergey22]

I could have sworn that the Rockets were looking to offload one of their picks. Well, maybe they figure that they can also offload 2 picks for future considerations and figured they didn´t need Budinger anymore.

For the Twolves i think Budinger is better than anybody available at No18 and more proven, so that´s a solid trade. Sure he doesn´t solve their problems and doesn´t even fill a huge need (too slow laterally to really guard 2s and can´t create his own shot) but neither could have the 18th pick i guess.

Good way of looking at it. When I first heard about this I was like WTF? But you make a great point that hes probably better than anything they would get at 18 anyway.

[RedKingGold]

The guy from Draftexpress.com broke the Budinger deal and says that Houston has offered Lowry, the #14, and the #16 to Sacramento for Tyreke Evans and the #5.

If true, I hope Sacramento laughed in Houston's face. That sounds like a "how about you give me $5 and I punch you in the face" type of trade offer.

[larrymcg421]

The Celtics are awarded a 2013 2nd round draft pick from Oklahoma City due to Jeff Green's health issues.

[Daimyo]

Where did you get this from ? I was under the impression that it was Bird who didn´t want to commit to anything long term and was himself contemplating wether or not he´d be back during the regular season at times (and in a "i don´t know if i want to continue" way)

I´ve seen it suggested that it´s health related.

About a week or so ago he was quoted as saying he wanted a three year deal and it was tough being year to year with just a handshake agreement. I thought it was odd because I'd always thought he was the one who didn't want a deal.

He'd also had some quotes implying that they needed to spend more money to make it to the next level (presumably to match Hibbert and go after Gordon or another scorer), he wasn't sure Herb was willing to do it, and he only wanted to stay if that commitment was there. Today he's saying they had no disagreement on how much to spend... but of course that's what he has to say now.

Not a great day for the Pacers, but shouldn't be a surprise either I guess. This is the same guy who quit as head coach at the end of a season in which he led the team to the finals and won coach of the year.

[jbergey22]

The Celtics are awarded a 2013 2nd round draft pick from Oklahoma City due to Jeff Green's health issues.

Haha, The NBA must have decided this one. This pick the Celtics will get will be around #55-60 so its very unlikely the Celtics would have taken this in a settlement if it was directly done with Oklahoma City.

Almost seems as if the NBA thought the Celtics dispute was a joke because getting that pick as compensations is pretty much a joke.

[Daimyo]

Weird too that Bird just completed a power play to get rid of Morway and replace him with Pritchard as GM. Why go through the trouble if you're just going to leave a few days later...

[Young Drachma]

Weird too that Bird just completed a power play to get rid of Morway and replace him with Pritchard as GM. Why go through the trouble if you're just going to leave a few days later...

Maybe the owner asked him to do that before he left so he didn't have to?

[Chief Rum]

About a week or so ago he was quoted as saying he wanted a three year deal and it was tough being year to year with just a handshake agreement. I thought it was odd because I'd always thought he was the one who didn't want a deal.

He's in a year to year? What is it with owners who can get away with this?

The Clips asshole owner had Oshey on a frickin' month to month, which is why Oshey is GMing in Portland now.

[rjolley]

Interesting trade rumor:

@Chris_Brousard: The Celtics have traded Rajon Rondo, the #21 and #22 picks to the Kings, in exchange for Tyrke Evans and the #5 pick, per league source.

Later, it was proven to be from a fake account.

[nilodor]

Yeah I'm with you. I don't even care for the draft, I don't have any faith in the team from top to bottom. I do not like Bargnani, and who else is there? DeRozan seemed to regress, Ed Davis is OK but not great, there's just a lack of talent.

Then you think maybe they'll make a trade, but who do we have that someone wants? I think Calderon's deal is up at the end of the year so maybe, but his contract is like 9 mil and even though he sucks on defense he actually gets players involved unlike Bayless. Best case, draft waiters, move DeRozan to the 3, Big V provides a low post presence, calderon works to get every one involved. Amir and the other random guys provide energy off the bench and... probably still in the lottery. Hopefully Bargnani can continue his development because he was showing signs of life on both ends of the floor before he got hurt. Maybe Bargnani + Calderon + Picks & Blackmail to the Lakers for Gasol? Who knows at this point.

[whomario]

Pau is turning 32 this summer and is entering his 13th NBA season (+ plaiyng for spain all the time), you don´t start from scratch to built around a player like that at this point.

I mean, what´s the point ? You´d likely not be much better short term (i love Pau´s game, but no way can you surround him with a below average team and then suddenly have a winning team) and if things go right you still need 2 or 3 years to add pieces and then he´ll likely be on the downslide. Sure, with his skill set he can be a nice complimentary player until he´s 40, but still ...

Plus in your scenario you sent away one of the few reason that might make Pau content to play motivated in Toronto, having a buddy around to feed him the ball.

Right now i think you have to stick with Bargnani and hope for the best (him making a leap or lucking out and drafting a better player)

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

holy crap. minnesota might have an all white starting five.

[britrock88]

holy crap. minnesota might have an all white starting five.

http://www.bicworld.com/img/products/Wite-Out_Quick_Dry.jpg

[Sublime 2]

Haha, The NBA must have decided this one. This pick the Celtics will get will be around #55-60 so its very unlikely the Celtics would have taken this in a settlement if it was directly done with Oklahoma City.

Almost seems as if the NBA thought the Celtics dispute was a joke because getting that pick as compensations is pretty much a joke.

Not that it completely matters, but I've read the pick is actually the Charlotte 2nd rounder from the Byron Mullens trade.

[DaddyTorgo]

The Celtics are awarded a 2013 2nd round draft pick from Oklahoma City due to Jeff Green's health issues.

How's that fucking Perkins trade look now Danny Ainge

::makes a note to break his kneecaps with a crowbar the next time i see him around town::

[RainMaker]

I don't know, you aren't stuck with Perkins on a shitty contract.

[stevew]

Most centers are very overpaid...Perkins is paid correctly IMO.

[Shkspr]

Soooo....not planning on shaving anytime soon, I guess. (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/26/anthony-davis-files-trademarks-for-unibrow-phrases-ahead-of-nba-draft/)

[RainMaker]

If true, I hope Sacramento laughed in Houston's face. That sounds like a "how about you give me $5 and I punch you in the face" type of trade offer.
I don't think it's that bad of a deal. Get a very good PG and two mid 1st rounders to add depth with.

[stevew]

I was trying to think hypothetically what the Cavs could offer the Hornets for Davis, at least to make them pause before saying no.

I'm thinking Tristan Thompson, pick #4, Cavs #1 pick in 2014, Cavs #1 in 2016 pick #24, a heavily protected #1 from Sacto, best pick of Miami or LAL next year and a 2015 #1 from Miami.

[RedKingGold]

I don't think it's that bad of a deal. Get a very good PG and two mid 1st rounders to add depth with.

Lowry does not have Tyreke's potential and is more expensive. Also, a lottery pick, especially in this draft, is worth much, much more than a mid round pick.

[stevew]

I think Lowry makes about 6.5m for 3 more years, but Evans is like 4-5mil this year, then possibly will get 10-12m/year after that. Sacto has to make an Evans trade I think.

[RainMaker]

Lowry does not have Tyreke's potential and is more expensive. Also, a lottery pick, especially in this draft, is worth much, much more than a mid round pick.

Lowry is a much better player than Tyreke. And this seems to be a draft with 4 elite prospects and they're drafting 5th. I believe the rumor was also for the 14th and 16th picks which helps them round out their roster on the cheap. Lowry and Cousins is a nice base to work from.

[rjolley]

Bobcats trade Corey Maggette to the Pistons for Ben Gordon and a protected 1st round pick in 2013, according to ESPN.com.

[Young Drachma]

Looks like Sullinger has now moved down to mid-to-late 1st round steal territory. I don't know the details of his back issues and he's certainly not a "can't miss" prospect, but I think he'll be able to score around the basket in the NBA if he can stay healthy.

I think he'll be a nice pickup in mid-range territory. He's got a lot to prove.

[RainMaker]

Bobcats trade Corey Maggette to the Pistons for Ben Gordon and a protected 1st round pick in 2013, according to ESPN.com.

That's an incredible deal for the Bobcats.

[britrock88]

That's an incredible deal for the Bobcats.

Except that Ben Gordon has a 13.2M player option for '13/'14, while Maggette's contract is up at the end of this season. Wonder how well-protected the pick is?

[larrymcg421]

LOL that Ben Gordon is making more than Rajon Rondo. Locking up Rondo for so cheap is probably the best move Ainge has made, and he doesn't even seem to realize it.

[bronconick]

Except that Ben Gordon has a 13.2M player option for '13/'14, while Maggette's contract is up at the end of this season. Wonder how well-protected the pick is?

All lottery next year, top 8 in year 2, top 1 in year 3 and unprotected in year 4.

So, definitely won't see anything until 2014, possibly 2015.

[stevew]

It would be awesome if the lottery was held in 3 years and the pistons pick ended up being 2nd overall. Sort of the inverse Darko/Otis Thorpe Pistons Grizzlies trade from 1997 that came due several years later(2003). Then the LolCats can draft someone who won't pan out.

[RainMaker]

Except that Ben Gordon has a 13.2M player option for '13/'14, while Maggette's contract is up at the end of this season. Wonder how well-protected the pick is?

Bobcats are rebuilding and don't need the money right now. This allows them to hit the salary floor and Gordon's expiring contract because a nice trade piece after next season.

It's a strategy a lot of rebuilding teams have been using of late. Take someone's bad contract on in return for a draft pick.

[RedKingGold]

Lowry is a much better player than Tyreke. And this seems to be a draft with 4 elite prospects and they're drafting 5th. I believe the rumor was also for the 14th and 16th picks which helps them round out their roster on the cheap. Lowry and Cousins is a nice base to work from.

I've heard this is a draft with six elite prospects, and the big falloff is at the 7th pick. I don't care if the 14th and 16th picks are cheap, will they be good? I'd say it's a 3:1 ratio of bad, worthless picks at that range than solid good players.

Lowry is more developed than Tyreke, but Tyreke has the bigger upside and is young. Lowry is ceilinged out. And I say that as Villanova fan who watched Lowry for several years in college and in the NBA. I love the guy, and he's a solid player but he does not have the explosiveness and rare scoring ability that Tyreke has.

Tyreke's a good player who had a natural regression after a solid rookie year. It doesn't help that Sacramento has poor management, poor coaching and no veterans around to help him develop. Trading him and another elite player for a solid, but capped out, player and to mid-level picks does not make that team any better, IMO.

[RainMaker]

I think Tyreke has a chance at getting better, but how much? He's been in the league 3 years now. His jump shot has not improved and he still can't use his left hand. I don't think he's slumped as much as teams have a scouting report on him.

Lowry may have peaked but it's a good peak. He's a top 10 PG in the league right now and would elevate Cousins' game immediately. And while the odds of grabbing a star in the teens is low, they should be able to grab rotation guys if they draft well. Cheap rotation guys are huge for a small market team.

I don't know if it's the right move, I just don't think it's a horrible one. At some point every young team needs to surround their young star with players that can produce right now. The Wizards have had to do that by bringing in Nene and Okafor. Not doing that ultimately could stunt your young star as we've seen with Wall. Cousins is the best player on that team and I don't think it's a bad move to put a solid top 10 PG by his side.

Potential is a dangerous thing and at some point you have to cut ties with it and bring in players who can play. Lowry is a big upgrade and this may be the last year that you can get good value for Tyreke Evans.

[jbergey22]

If Sac-town could ship Keith Smart to Houston in the deal it would be a great trade for them. What a pathetic joke of a coach.

Im not sure which one of his strategies I enjoy the most.

Fouling out Cousins in the early 3rd quarter?
Benching his starters early in the 3rd quarter only to watch the bench bring them back only to have them run out of gas in the 4th because the bench isnt used to playing 20 straight minutes?
Having Isiah Thomas go on a roll for a week straight only to see his minutes in the next four games dropped under 24?
Having the starters all play over 42 minutes so they have nothing left at the end of the 4th quarter?

Must be good for team morale to not know if you will get 6 minutes or 40 minutes on a particular night.

[RedKingGold]

I think Tyreke has a chance at getting better, but how much? He's been in the league 3 years now. His jump shot has not improved and he still can't use his left hand. I don't think he's slumped as much as teams have a scouting report on him.

Tyreke is 22 years old and one of those three seasons was a strike-shortened debacle. If he were 25 or 26, you may have a point. But 22? No dice.

Lowry may have peaked but it's a good peak. He's a top 10 PG in the league right now and would elevate Cousins' game immediately. And while the odds of grabbing a star in the teens is low, they should be able to grab rotation guys if they draft well. Cheap rotation guys are huge for a small market team.

You can always get rotation guys in FA with smart signings, look at San Antonio. You can't give up two potential stars for a solid player and two role players, that just makes no sense.

I don't know if it's the right move, I just don't think it's a horrible one. At some point every young team needs to surround their young star with players that can produce right now. The Wizards have had to do that by bringing in Nene and Okafor. Not doing that ultimately could stunt your young star as we've seen with Wall. Cousins is the best player on that team and I don't think it's a bad move to put a solid top 10 PG by his side.

Now we're just arguing semantics. Perhaps there is a fair deal involving Evans, something like Lowry and a lottery pick for him. But the point is that THIS deal would be a bad deal for Sacramento. Oh, and let's see how well that Nene and Okafor deal works out before anointing it as a good move. Lastly, I think there are more questions about Cousins than Tyreke, why would you build around him?

Potential is a dangerous thing and at some point you have to cut ties with it and bring in players who can play. Lowry is a big upgrade and this may be the last year that you can get good value for Tyreke Evans.

Giving up on potential is an even dangerous thing. The ceiling with Lowry is maybe a 5th or 6th seed in the West, but the ceiling with Evans is much higher if the Kings spend wisely in FA.

Again, Tyreke is 22. Unless he suffers a big injury, he'll have equivalent or higher trade value into his mid-twenties.

[Gary Gorski]

Tyreke is nothing more than a volume scorer - if you let him chuck the ball up enough times he'll score, you'll lose, repeat. Sacramento would be wise to move him especially since he doesn't want to play the 3 and Thomas/Thornton is a good scoring backcourt. If I'm Sacto I'm trying to ship Tyreke out for a solid 4 -Evans and the bloated contracts of Salmons and Hayes for Pau works. Make LA throw in a future #1 and draft Barnes (or MKG if he slides to 5) and you've got a nice starting 5, got JT, Garcia and Jimmer off the bench, maybe bring back T-Will and have some cap space still I would think to pick up someone else.

And congrats to Matt Mill...er Joe Dumars. Clearly the resigning of Prince and Jerebko last season along with the prior drafting of Daye (when we could have had Holiday and could have had Blair instead of Jerebko) means that exactly what this team needs is...another small forward. This move signals one of two things - either Dumars has actually gotten worse as a GM (which I don't think is possible) or Gores has decided already after a year of owning the team that things are going to be done on the cheap. Or are we gearing up at another cap clearing move to repeat the last debacle of Gordon/Villanueva? At least we can watch all season to see which will be higher - Pistons wins or combined games missed due to injury/out of shape/DNP-CD between Maggette and CV31.

[Arles]

All lottery next year, top 8 in year 2, top 1 in year 3 and unprotected in year 4.

So, definitely won't see anything until 2014, possibly 2015.
This is a great move for Charlotte. It's nice GMs on crap teams understand that cap space is almost useless in FA (just ask NJ about that - and they have a decent market). All you can do is try to upgrade players, get picks and slowly improve by using cap space via trade. Both Washington and Charlotte seemed to have finally figured this out and both are making better moves this offseason.

The Bill Simmons/John Hollinger/ESPN mantra of hording cap space so that Charlotte can one day sign some mythical great free agent willing to forgo similar offers and play for a 20-win team is ridiculous. Use that space to get incrementally better each year and the following year you have a new set of expirings to deal for slightly better players/picks.

[Daimyo]

Donnie Walsh officially back as the Pacer's president... not sure how I feel about that. He was an amazing GM in his first go around, but it looked like he lost a step when he left before (although I'm not sure any GM could have survived the aftermath of the brawl) and now he's five years older.

He did a great job in NY getting them out of the hole they were in for most of the 2000s, but then signed Stoudemire and traded for Anthony to put them right back in (although Dolan is likely more to blame for that).

[stevew]

The pick acquired by the Bobcats from the Pistons also serves as a hedge against the pick they owe the Bulls.

Those conditions are---
top 12 protected in 2013, top 10 protected in 2014, top 8 protected in 2015, unprotected in 2016

[RainMaker]

Tyreke is 22 years old and one of those three seasons was a strike-shortened debacle. If he were 25 or 26, you may have a point. But 22? No dice.

He's still showing no signs of improving. Has not made any improvements over the past couple seasons. Now I know players develop at different rates, but we have also seen guards be able to step in and contribute in their first few years.

But what is the ceiling for him? Top 10 PG? You are getting that with Lowry. I think there is a chance Evans improves, but I don't see him becoming a perennial All-Star or anything. I guess what I see is that there is a chance for him to become as good as Lowry, but becoming an elite PG are really slim.

You can always get rotation guys in FA with smart signings, look at San Antonio. You can't give up two potential stars for a solid player and two role players, that just makes no sense.

Not cheap ones though (just look at their signing of Chuck Hayes). The draft is great for adding depth that you control for years at a cheap price. San Antonio has of course been great at taking players off the trash heap and turning them into solid rotation guys, but is Sacramento capable of doing that? San Antonio seems more the exception rather than the rule. I look at how a team like Indiana has built itself as a model for smaller market teams (can even throw Denver in there too). They have a lot of solid rotation guys for cheap and now enough cap room to make a splash on a star.

Now we're just arguing semantics. Perhaps there is a fair deal involving Evans, something like Lowry and a lottery pick for him. But the point is that THIS deal would be a bad deal for Sacramento. Oh, and let's see how well that Nene and Okafor deal works out before anointing it as a good move. Lastly, I think there are more questions about Cousins than Tyreke, why would you build around him?

Giving up on potential is an even dangerous thing. The ceiling with Lowry is maybe a 5th or 6th seed in the West, but the ceiling with Evans is much higher if the Kings spend wisely in FA.

Again, Tyreke is 22. Unless he suffers a big injury, he'll have equivalent or higher trade value into his mid-twenties.

Potential is also dangerous too. It's what gets Tyrus Thomas a big contract and chosen instead of Lamarcus Aldrdige. And my point with Nene and Okafor is that if you have a young star, they can't develop with a bunch of unpolished players by their side always. At some point Washington had to surround Wall with real NBA players and not "potential" to see if he can be a star in the league. I feel the same with Cousins. At some point Sacramento has to put good players around him and see if he can be a star.

Like I said, I think you can make a case for it being a good trade. I'm definitely not as high as you are on Evans and I think you are undervaluing how good Lowry has become. There is a pretty big gap between the two.

[Groundhog]

Tyreke has been banged up, but I still don't know if he's a SG or a PG. He is not a great spot up shooter, needs the ball to be effective, and takes a lot of bad shots. I don't see him as a #1 scoring option on a good team, and I don't think his skill set makes him a good choice as your #2 scoring option. I'd rather have Lowry on my roster with his contract than Tyreke with a max-ish multiple-year deal.

[FF]

And congrats to Matt Mill...er Joe Dumars. Clearly the resigning of Prince and Jerebko last season along with the prior drafting of Daye (when we could have had Holiday and could have had Blair instead of Jerebko) means that exactly what this team needs is...another small forward. This move signals one of two things - either Dumars has actually gotten worse as a GM (which I don't think is possible) or Gores has decided already after a year of owning the team that things are going to be done on the cheap. Or are we gearing up at another cap clearing move to repeat the last debacle of Gordon/Villanueva? At least we can watch all season to see which will be higher - Pistons wins or combined games missed due to injury/out of shape/DNP-CD between Maggette and CV31.

why do i get the feeling that you'd be the type that would complain about any trade that joe d would make?

we cut a year off of ben gordons contract and charlie v can be amnestied this off season, what more could you ask for from this roster without trading stuckey, knight, or monroe?

and to complain about an energy guy like jerebko who makes 4.5m is only showing your bias. why dont you go ahead and tell me who the back up 3 would be anyways? daye? the same guy you just bitched about us drafting? IMO this move allows the pistons to take BPA which is more than likely a 2 or 4 anyways

[RainMaker]

But why did Detroit need to clean salary? It's not like they are some big free agent destination nor are there guys chomping at the bit to play there. Just let Gordon's contract play out. That's a potentially valuable 1st round pick.

[stevew]

Cavs considering taking Waiters at 4? Please god no..just take TRob if you can't get MKG or Beal. There are worse things in the world than having a few extra bigs that can play.

[RainMaker]

Also the Bulls should have been all over the Gordon deal and made a better offer. But same old same old as long as Reinsdorf owns that team. Big market revenues with small market mindset.

[stevew]

I'm assuming you dump Gordon cause the cost of Magette plus Amnesty'ing CV is about 2million more than just paying Gordon. Plus CV's salary counts towards the floor, and it's possible someone will offer to pick him off of release waivers for a million/season.

Not that it makes any real sense, but I see what they're trying to do.

[RainMaker]

I just don't think small market teams like that can give up potentially good first round picks like that.

[RedKingGold]

He's still showing no signs of improving. Has not made any improvements over the past couple seasons. Now I know players develop at different rates, but we have also seen guards be able to step in and contribute in their first few years.

Again, we're talking about three seasons here, really only two-and-a-half with the strike shortened season. What signs of improvement are you demanding to see? Also, how much blame should Sacramento take on not improving Tyreke? Who's not to say Sacramento will also ruin Lowry (a la Portland ruining Raymond Felton).

But what is the ceiling for him? Top 10 PG? You are getting that with Lowry. I think there is a chance Evans improves, but I don't see him becoming a perennial All-Star or anything. I guess what I see is that there is a chance for him to become as good as Lowry, but becoming an elite PG are really slim.

So, are you now calling Lowry a "perennial All-Star"? That seems to be quite a stretch. You can find PG's with Lowry's skills in the middle of the first round all the time, but volume scorers are much harder to come by. Just look at this year, specifically where Dion Waiters is ranked in compairison to Kendall Marshall.

Not cheap ones though (just look at their signing of Chuck Hayes). The draft is great for adding depth that you control for years at a cheap price. San Antonio has of course been great at taking players off the trash heap and turning them into solid rotation guys, but is Sacramento capable of doing that? San Antonio seems more the exception rather than the rule. I look at how a team like Indiana has built itself as a model for smaller market teams (can even throw Denver in there too). They have a lot of solid rotation guys for cheap and now enough cap room to make a splash on a star.

This is a GM problem, not a talent problem. The only reason Sacramento is not capable of doing this is poor management. It's really irrelevant to the whole "trade Tyreke for peanuts" issue. Actually, it may even prove my point.

Potential is also dangerous too. It's what gets Tyrus Thomas a big contract and chosen instead of Lamarcus Aldrdige. And my point with Nene and Okafor is that if you have a young star, they can't develop with a bunch of unpolished players by their side always. At some point Washington had to surround Wall with real NBA players and not "potential" to see if he can be a star in the league. I feel the same with Cousins. At some point Sacramento has to put good players around him and see if he can be a star.

Everything can be dangerous. Have Lowry's teams been in contention for an NBA Championship? Nope. You hate how Miami did it, but the key in the NBA is to get your stars first then get the cheap role players later.

Again, and in response to what Gary and other have said above, Tyreke is 22 years old. If we're having the same arguments when Tyreke is 25, he will still have potential in NBA GM's eyes and will still probably carry the same trade value as he does today. Why give up that upside now? If Sacramento is wrong, the trade value is still there. If Sacramento is right, then they have at least one star and a second if Cousins develop.

Like I said, I think you can make a case for it being a good trade. I'm definitely not as high as you are on Evans and I think you are undervaluing how good Lowry has become. There is a pretty big gap between the two.

Lowry is a solid player but ceilinged out. Tyreke is a lesser player today but has a much higher ceiling. This isn't rocket science. Is Lowry going to make Sacramento a championship contender? Heck no. But, what if Tyreke develops into the potential observed during his rookie season? Then heck yes.

[RainMaker]

Again, we're talking about three seasons here, really only two-and-a-half with the strike shortened season. What signs of improvement are you demanding to see? Also, how much blame should Sacramento take on not improving Tyreke? Who's not to say Sacramento will also ruin Lowry (a la Portland ruining Raymond Felton).
Any signs of improvement would be great. Some semblance of a jump shot or being able to use his left hand. Those are his two biggest weaknesses and have seen absolutely no improvement. Yes you don't necessarily expect someone to peak after his 3rd season, but you do expect to see some improvements. And you're correct that Sacramento might not be able to develop him properly, which is all the more reason to trade him for a player that is polished.

As for Felton, Portland didn't ruin him, eating did.

So, are you now calling Lowry a "perennial All-Star"? That seems to be quite a stretch. You can find PG's with Lowry's skills in the middle of the first round all the time, but volume scorers are much harder to come by. Just look at this year, specifically where Dion Waiters is ranked in compairison to Kendall Marshall.

No I'm not calling Lowry that. I think he's just below an All-Star caliber PG. Definitely top 10 in the NBA but near the bottom of that list. I'm saying that I don't think Evans has perennial All-Star ability in him and thus, his ceiling isn't much higher than what you currently would get from Lowry.

I don't think efficient PGs are that easy to pick up in the draft. I do think athletic wings who can't shoot are though.

This is a GM problem, not a talent problem. The only reason Sacramento is not capable of doing this is poor management. It's really irrelevant to the whole "trade Tyreke for peanuts" issue. Actually, it may even prove my point.

Kyle Lowry isn't peanuts. He's a top 10 PG. Tyreke isn't even the best PG on his team.

Again, and in response to what Gary and other have said above, Tyreke is 22 years old. If we're having the same arguments when Tyreke is 25, he will still have potential in NBA GM's eyes and will still probably carry the same trade value as he does today. Why give up that upside now? If Sacramento is wrong, the trade value is still there. If Sacramento is right, then they have at least one star and a second if Cousins develop.

Lowry is a solid player but ceilinged out. Tyreke is a lesser player today but has a much higher ceiling. This isn't rocket science. Is Lowry going to make Sacramento a championship contender? Heck no. But, what if Tyreke develops into the potential observed during his rookie season? Then heck yes.

I just think you're overvaluing Tyreke's potential. He doesn't have a position, can't shoot, and can't use his left hand. There is of course potential there, but he needs to improve a lot of areas of his game to be a great player in the league. There is time to do it, but I haven't seen any inclination that he is getting better, or that he can do it in Sacramento. I guess I'd feel more confident if some aspect of his game had gotten better, but it hasn't.

I also disagree on value in 3 years. Tyrus Thomas is a guy with insane potential and 25. He has absolutely no trade value. Teams will give up on you at a point, and Tyreke is getting awfully close to that point. If that weren't the case, Tyrus would have a lot of trade value. And another thing about 25 year old Tyreke Evans, he won't be on a rookie contract and no one is taking a bad contract on for a player who didn't pan out at 25.

As it stands Tyreke is an athletic high usage combo guard who can't shoot and doesn't play good team defense. He's Larry Hughes.

[RedKingGold]

Any signs of improvement would be great. Some semblance of a jump shot or being able to use his left hand. Those are his two biggest weaknesses and have seen absolutely no improvement. Yes you don't necessarily expect someone to peak after his 3rd season, but you do expect to see some improvements. And you're correct that Sacramento might not be able to develop him properly, which is all the more reason to trade him for a player that is polished.

As for Felton, Portland didn't ruin him, eating did.

How did LeBron do without a jump shot this year? Every player has weaknesses, but that should not define his value. At 22, I expect a guy to have weaknesses, glaring ones. I'm more willing to take a roll of the dice on the athleticism and give him two or three more seasons to figure it out. Even if he doesn't, he'll still have that athleticism and still be marketable to other teams. But why trade him now? Are we so sure that Cousins is the right guy to build around?

As far as Sacramento, how does trading Tyreke solve the problem? All you've done is lowered the ceiling of the team without a collateral promise that things will get better in team management.

Oh, and Felton was ruined because he played in several difference systems for several different teams. That will only hurt development. Wouldn't trading Tyreke to an entirely new system also set back his development?

No I'm not calling Lowry that. I think he's just below an All-Star caliber PG. Definitely top 10 in the NBA but near the bottom of that list. I'm saying that I don't think Evans has perennial All-Star ability in him and thus, his ceiling isn't much higher than what you currently would get from Lowry.

I don't think efficient PGs are that easy to pick up in the draft. I do think athletic wings who can't shoot are though.

We will just have to agree to disagree on Tyreke's all star potential, but I think we can agree that he is an athletic freak with a rare skill set who can be scary if he figures it all out.

Also, I haven't looked this up to check, but I'm pretty sure Lowry, Felton, and Lawson, all similar players, were all non-lottery picks. I think Marshall has that ability, and you can get a mid first rounder like him for peanuts.

Kyle Lowry isn't peanuts. He's a top 10 PG. Tyreke isn't even the best PG on his team.

These are two different statements. I agree that Lowry isn't "peanuts" but still think his skill set is more easily replaced than Evans potential. Also, let's not forget that Sacramento would have been giving up Evans AND a lottery pick. As I said before, if the deal was Lowry and two mid-firsts for Evans, that's a lot more palatable than the prior offer.

I just think you're overvaluing Tyreke's potential. He doesn't have a position, can't shoot, and can't use his left hand. There is of course potential there, but he needs to improve a lot of areas of his game to be a great player in the league. There is time to do it, but I haven't seen any inclination that he is getting better, or that he can do it in Sacramento. I guess I'd feel more confident if some aspect of his game had gotten better, but it hasn't.

I also disagree on value in 3 years. Tyrus Thomas is a guy with insane potential and 25. He has absolutely no trade value. Teams will give up on you at a point, and Tyreke is getting awfully close to that point. If that weren't the case, Tyrus would have a lot of trade value. And another thing about 25 year old Tyreke Evans, he won't be on a rookie contract and no one is taking a bad contract on for a player who didn't pan out at 25.

As it stands Tyreke is an athletic high usage combo guard who can't shoot and doesn't play good team defense. He's Larry Hughes.

For twenty-two years old, I still take the chance that he will develop his shot while keeping the athletic ability. It's easier to tell a guy to tone it down than to turn it up. Also, Evans had a solid rookie reason, a sophomore slump, and a strike shortened season where we can't take away any era conclusions.

Tyra's Thomas is 25. If Evans is 25 and hasn't figured it out, then you may be on to something. At that point, you're in the last year or two of his contract and could still get a mid-first rounder for him to get a guy like (drum roll) Kyle Lowry.

You're underselling Tyreke and I'm overselling him. Let's say they cancel out for the purposes of this trade. Then you're left with a lottery pick in an eight player draft for two mid-first rounders. That's still not an awful deal.

[jbergey22]

Tyreke just needs a different system to play in. The reason he hasnt progressed is him and Cousins dont play well together. The Kings as a team are awful at passing and arent good at putting the players in a position to be successful. Kind of a coaching and chemistry issue.

As for the discussion I think its a bad trade for the Kings as well. Id certainly take Tyreke going forward and Id want the #5 pick over the two non lotto picks.

Lowry took a step back last year and lost his starting job. Im not seeing why he is considered a top 10 point guard. He does a lot of things but really isnt a good shooter at all. Do we really think the Rockets have two top 10 point guards on their team currently?

PERHAPS Lowry might make them a better team next year but whats that instead of 25-30 wins they are a 33 win team? I think they could get more for Tyreke or atleast see if his potential can be found. I have a feeling the best we saw from Lowry was 2 seasons ago.

[whomario]

How did LeBron do without a jump shot this year?.

James shot 47% from 3-9 and 10-15 feet as well as 39% from 16-23 (and he was better there previously, so it´s not a result of taking less 3s) while Evans shot 27, 24 and 30 percent respectively.
Overall James made FGs are about split evenly between layups/dunks and everything else while it´s 70/30 for Evans.

Not going to really dive into this but some short thoughts :

- Lowry didn´t really loose his job, he got injured and then when he came back for the last 9 games the Rockets were winning games and Dragic played really well

- That said, Lowry imo also isn´t a great PG and would propably best served in a 6th man role himself. Can Carry a team for stretches, can get hot, plays great defense and and forces teams to adjust to him. But he isnt the sort of player to carry the load and be efficient for long stretches or be the 3rd or 4th option and set up his teammates.

[Groundhog]

Cavs considering taking Waiters at 4? Please god no..just take TRob if you can't get MKG or Beal. There are worse things in the world than having a few extra bigs that can play.

Oh dear. As much as we need a dynamic SG or SF, what we need above all else is talent. I'd happily bring in a "safe" pick like TRob than blow yet another pick drafting for need over common sense.

[Gary Gorski]

why do i get the feeling that you'd be the type that would complain about any trade that joe d would make?

we cut a year off of ben gordons contract and charlie v can be amnestied this off season, what more could you ask for from this roster without trading stuckey, knight, or monroe?

and to complain about an energy guy like jerebko who makes 4.5m is only showing your bias. why dont you go ahead and tell me who the back up 3 would be anyways? daye? the same guy you just bitched about us drafting? IMO this move allows the pistons to take BPA which is more than likely a 2 or 4 anyways

Because what was the last good move he made? Knight and Monroe fell into his lap and beyond that his draft record is pathetic and his trading/free agent signing record is no better. He pulled a great pick with Prince, made a great signing with Chauncey and great trades for Rip, Ben and Sheed....he can't live off of those moves forever though.

What could I ask of this roster? Um how about not to waste potential lottery picks to try and clean up the mess he made? There's a very good chance this team is in the lottery the next two years and if so that's a possible top ten pick for nothing. Then again had he tendered Stuckey instead of signing him to a long term deal, not resigned a veteran in Prince to a long term deal for a team that had no aspirations of making the playoffs and had he not given a massive deal to a player that his former team didn't even tender because they didn't even want the right to entertain matching an offer for (CV) then maybe we wouldn't be giving away a possible lottery pick to cut one year off of Gordon's contract. We could amnesty him and have a ton of cap space to play with. And he can't trade Stuckey - nobody wants him. Knight and Monroe are the only two assets on the team and those are guys we can build around.

I'm also not complaining about Jerebko - I like him and I think he was underutilized by Frank. I would much rather see him play than Maxiell. I was pointing out that we could have had Blair and if the Spurs offered Blair for JJ I would have the paperwork faxed over before they could hang up the phone. If you want a backup 3 bring Singler over. I'd rather use him than Daye. Problem is you're now stuck having to play Tayshaun (which if that signing wasn't an admission that Daye was a huge mistake I don't know what is) and if Maggette is healthy you're not going to sit him and Maxiell opted in and you still have CV on the roster and JJ and probably Henson (who I actually like) coming in tonight. That's 7 guys for 2 positions. I'd love to see JJ, Singler and Henson (assuming) get all the minutes so they can develop and see if they're any good. Instead we're going to get a huge chunk eaten by vets who have no future with the team.

Take a look across the table at Indy and see what they've done. Granger, Hibbert and George all were drafted by Indy at 17, 17 and 10. George Hill was acquired for their 15th pick. Hansbrough is your energy guy (drafted too high but drafted by Indy nonetheless), Barbosa they got for a 2nd round draft pick, Collison they got for Troy Murphy, David West was a responsible and value free agent signing. That's how you build a team - good use of draft picks and smart trades/signings. Detroit is about to add its third straight top ten pick tonight and they're still a worse team than Indy who doesn't have ONE player drafted as high as any of those three. Instead Joe D is using future picks to clean up the mess that he made a couple years back.

[Gary Gorski]

Again, and in response to what Gary and other have said above, Tyreke is 22 years old. If we're having the same arguments when Tyreke is 25, he will still have potential in NBA GM's eyes and will still probably carry the same trade value as he does today. Why give up that upside now? If Sacramento is wrong, the trade value is still there. If Sacramento is right, then they have at least one star and a second if Cousins develop.

First I do agree that the GM and management are a problem. I clearly don't like the management in my town but its hard to say its much better in Sacramento.

That said here's why you have to trade him now - potential. You guys already went through the whole nobody wants Ty Thomas now bit which is true. You're going into the final season on Evans' rookie contract. After this season you either have to tender him for one more year and be prepared to match a big offer or put down the big money yourself and once the big contract has been signed potential means squat. If your main selling point on Tyreke is that he's 22 with a ton of potential then you have to trade him while that is still the case and if Sacramento thought he was going to realize that potential then they wouldn't be shopping him nor would they have squeezed him out for Thornton (and they know nobody stops the ball like Evans so he's a horrible fit at PG).

You can still sell someone on the potential of Evans. That he just needs a place where he's a better "fit". Plus he's still a cheap contract so its much easier to make a deal now with the salary rules and more teams could be in the mix for him. This is the time for Sacramento to pull the trigger if they are ever going to do it. I don't agree that Lowry is who they should be after (I like Thomas/Thornton in their backcourt) but I do agree they should be looking for a deal. Hell send him to Cleveland for #4 and get both MKG and Barnes in the draft.

[RedKingGold]

First I do agree that the GM and management are a problem. I clearly don't like the management in my town but its hard to say its much better in Sacramento.

That said here's why you have to trade him now - potential. You guys already went through the whole nobody wants Ty Thomas now bit which is true. You're going into the final season on Evans' rookie contract. After this season you either have to tender him for one more year and be prepared to match a big offer or put down the big money yourself and once the big contract has been signed potential means squat. If your main selling point on Tyreke is that he's 22 with a ton of potential then you have to trade him while that is still the case and if Sacramento thought he was going to realize that potential then they wouldn't be shopping him nor would they have squeezed him out for Thornton (and they know nobody stops the ball like Evans so he's a horrible fit at PG).

You can still sell someone on the potential of Evans. That he just needs a place where he's a better "fit". Plus he's still a cheap contract so its much easier to make a deal now with the salary rules and more teams could be in the mix for him. This is the time for Sacramento to pull the trigger if they are ever going to do it. I don't agree that Lowry is who they should be after (I like Thomas/Thornton in their backcourt) but I do agree they should be looking for a deal. Hell send him to Cleveland for #4 and get both MKG and Barnes in the draft.

I think we're on the same wavelength. The original argument was about the proposed deal for Lowry/two mid-firsts for Evans and a lottery. Somehow, Rainmaker (as he always does), turns this into a Lowry v. Evans debate which is not really the point.

My point is, if you're going to trade Evans, then get something back much higher than the Lowry offer. As you said, Lowry is not the best fit, but there might be other trades where Evans is dealt that make sense for both teams and all players. But that Lowry offer is not one of those.

[sterlingice]

Maybe I'm treating this too much like a video game, but let's say you're a team that sucks and is sitting at 2, 3, or 4

Would this be the year you could rebuild your team from the ground up? With Houston sitting there with 12, 16, and 18- you could trade that high pick to them and I bet you could turn around and send 12 to Boston for 21 and 22 and get yourself 16, 18, 21, and 22.

Doesn't that end you with some pu pu platter of 4 of the following:
Terrence Ross
Jeremy Lamb
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Kendall Marshall
Marquis Teague
Royce White
Jared Sullinger
Arnett Moultrie
Feb Melo

What are the odds on at least one of the four from the list above hitting against one of MKG, Beal, Robinson, or Barnes?

SI

[Gary Gorski]

I think that's a viable strategy if you're at 6+ but I'd rather have one of the top 5 then say Lamb, Ross, Melo and White. For it to work otherwise you have to think there's a decent chance picks 2-5 would be busts and I don't think they will be. It's not like its the draft where Thabeet is up there - those first 5 are legit.

[Atocep]

Maybe I'm treating this too much like a video game, but let's say you're a team that sucks and is sitting at 2, 3, or 4

Would this be the year you could rebuild your team from the ground up? With Houston sitting there with 12, 16, and 18- you could trade that high pick to them and I bet you could turn around and send 12 to Boston for 21 and 22 and get yourself 16, 18, 21, and 22.

Doesn't that end you with some pu pu platter of 4 of the following:
Terrence Ross
Jeremy Lamb
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Kendall Marshall
Marquis Teague
Royce White
Jared Sullinger
Arnett Moultrie
Feb Melo

What are the odds on at least one of the four from the list above hitting against one of MKG, Beal, Robinson, or Barnes?

SI

This is a very deep draft, but it only has 1 "sure" all star. There are several guys with nice potential that are going to slide into the late teens to twenties because of depth. If there's a year to load up with 4 picks instead of a pick in the 2-6 range this is probably it.

Barnes or Terrance Jones + 3 others? Give me Jones and 3 other first round picks. The same goes for Drummond and Waiters.

With that said, four 1st round picks in one draft is probably a recipe for disaster. Outside of text sims, having 1/4 of your roster compiled of rookies is probably not the best way to go about building a team and there's a lack of 1st round foreign talent to stash this year.

[stevew]

Maybe I'm treating this too much like a video game, but let's say you're a team that sucks and is sitting at 2, 3, or 4

Would this be the year you could rebuild your team from the ground up? With Houston sitting there with 12, 16, and 18- you could trade that high pick to them and I bet you could turn around and send 12 to Boston for 21 and 22 and get yourself 16, 18, 21, and 22.

Doesn't that end you with some pu pu platter of 4 of the following:
Terrence Ross
Jeremy Lamb
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Kendall Marshall
Marquis Teague
Royce White
Jared Sullinger
Arnett Moultrie
Feb Melo

What are the odds on at least one of the four from the list above hitting against one of MKG, Beal, Robinson, or Barnes?

SI


I made this point on a Cavs board today that if we're going to draft Waiters, we may just as well trade 4(and I included 24) for 12, 16, 18 and just shoot for the moon on those picks. I really liked the old school Eddie Griffin for Jason Collins, Brandon Armstrong and Richard Jefferson trade back in the day. I still think the Cavs are fools for passing on Robinson though.

I wonder if there might be a scenario where Houston trades the Cavs the 3 #1's, the Cavs trade #4 (MKG) to the Lakers, the Lakers trade Gasol to the Rockets, and the Rockets trade like Scola to the Cavs, Cavs send Boobie and some second rounders to the Lakers. Lakers get Patrick Patterson....something to that effect.

Obviously far fetched, but in line with a bunch of the predraft noise

[Chief Rum]

I don't think the Lakers would except the #4 pick alone for Gasol.

[rjolley]

So Bulls fans, what's the word on what we're looking at drafting? Saw an ESPN article with some guesses. Of the ones they chose, I like John Jenkins out of Vandy and Doron Lamb of Kentucky the most, from seeing them play this year.

[sterlingice]

This is a very deep draft, but it only has 1 "sure" all star. There are several guys with nice potential that are going to slide into the late teens to twenties because of depth. If there's a year to load up with 4 picks instead of a pick in the 2-6 range this is probably it.

That was pretty much my rationale- if you're going to take a chance, this is the year not some year with a bunch of schlock in the mid teens. Tho, yes, the 4 rookies might just kill your squad.

SI

[Grover]

Andy Katz totally just said "bulging dick" instead of bulging disc. Excellent.

[bulletsponge]

Stern coming out and trying to draw heat from the crowd. yep, nothing like trying to pull a WWE move to alleviate concerns about rigging games and lottery's

[Logan]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_qf119jo0l4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Chief Rum]

Seems to be fairly strongly indicated that a three way trade involving Mo Williams and Lamar Odom is under consideration, but all parties are waiting on Mo Williams to decide if he will pick up his option for next year.

I'm completely unsure--no, perplexed--at the thought of bringing Odom back to the Clippers. Even if he is the Lakers' Odom, and not the Clippers' Odom of 10 years ago or the malingering Odom of last year. And those other two options are far more likely, IMO.

[Logan]

I'm guessing MKG was planning on taking that "Public Speaking" course during his sophomore year.

[Logan]

Waiters to CLE at 4. Someone check on stevew.

[stevew]

Fuck fuck fuck motherfuck fuck

[Logan]

Keep breathing!

[stevew]

He's fat

[Matthean]

I know squat about the NBA draft and what picks would be good, but picking a guy 4th overall who couldn't start for his own team seems odd.

[stevew]

We played like fuck all year, just to get this tubby looking fatty who possibly is not a great human. Tell me something good Marmel. I'm basically physically ill right now and feel my blood pressure spiking.

[IlliniCub]

Yeah I was wondering if we had a repeat of the "bulging dick" incident from Sportscenter back in the day or if I was just hearing things. Though Katz implies Sullinger has multiple "bulging dicks", which could mean if the NBA thing doesn't work out I'd think he'd have an adult film career

[Groundhog]

Fuckity fuck fuck.

[stevew]

Thomas Robinson is going to be a monster.

[Chief Rum]

I am not watching the draft, since I am at work. Tell me, did a Maloof brother trip as he was hastily running up to hand Stern the Thomas Robinson card right after the Cavs' pick?

[Groundhog]

Odds that our late 1st round pick ends up being better than Waiters?