2014 NFL Regular Season, Week 2

[EagleFan]

How can the Raiders have been so bad for so long and not only still be awful, but also old?

The curse of jb...

[TroyF]

I still think Tampa Bay would be better off playing Mike Glennon.

He's in a horrible spot. The guy who loved him is the guy everyone in Florida hates. He has little chance of ever succeeding with the Bucs. His best hope is to get traded.

[Thomkal]

Teams to make it to 2-0:

NFC
Carolina Panthers
Arizona Cardinals
(Eagles if they beat Indy tomorrow night)

AFC
Buffalo Bills
Cincinnati Bengals
Houston Texans
Denver Broncos


Next week for these teams

Pittsburgh @ Carolina (Sunday Night)
San Francisco @ Arizona
Washington @ Philadelphia
San Diego @ Buffalo (looking like a fun game all of a sudden)
Tennessee @ Cincinnati
Houston @ NY Giants
Denver @ Seattle

I think we have three likely losses there. Denver, Houston and Buffalo.

Troy,

Hoping Houston and Buffalo win because if they do then in Week 4-its the Buffalo at Houston game of undefeateds that no one ever expected! :)

[BillJasper]

He's in a horrible spot. The guy who loved him is the guy everyone in Florida hates. He has little chance of ever succeeding with the Bucs. His best hope is to get traded.

They fall to 0-4 or 0-5 and McCown continues to play poorly, Smith won't have a choice but to make a change or take a chance of losing the locker room.

[Lathum]

I have no faith in the Giants beating the texans. Watt is going to have about 7 sacks.

[Dutch]

He's in a horrible spot. The guy who loved him is the guy everyone in Florida hates. He has little chance of ever succeeding with the Bucs. His best hope is to get traded.

Actually, the general consensus is that Glennon is a good quarterback, but we know he'll need some sort of pass protection to survive because he's a lanky, immobile, skinny twig of a man. If he had a good offensive line, he would be a very capable quarterback in this league. Reality is what it is though, out of the two of them, Josh McCown is the only guy who has a shot at making something happen when every other play's protection breaks down. It leads to mistakes, but he's also got some escapability (scored 2 rushing TD's today, FWIW) but it's what we are stuck with right now.

[sabotai]

I'm fairly sure the Giants will find some hilarious way to lose to the Texans.

[NobodyHere]

You guys can thank me for Seattle losing.

I chose them in my pick 'em.

[Dutch]

Oh, and forget the QB controversy....at the end of the game today as the Bucs start off with 2 home games and 2 losses, I am sure that...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dhfXu1UfrqI/UOU_Xv02BXI/AAAAAAAAEZA/PNQdW_zVjww/s1600/george-michael.gif

...this was every die-hard Bucs fans response when they got home from the game today.

[Abe Sargent]

TOO MANY FLAGS< NOT ENOUGH FOOTBALL....

[Coffee Warlord]

Bears defense is just dreadful.

[Coffee Warlord]

And this game needs more flags.

[Travis]

The Charger today are doing EXACTLY what you have to do to beat the Seahawks. And that starts with not giving a crap who is on one side of the field. They are making the 'Hawks play side to side. Sherman hasn't received the entire game off and Thomas hasn't been able to shade to one side the entire day.

The Seahawks are still making plays. They are still hard as hell to move the ball on. And knowing Rivers, he'll gift them a TD in the fourth to blow a lead. Yet he didn't walk into that game terrified that #25 was magical boss character in a video game who couldn't be beat.

Screw that, attack him and see what happens. Good on the Chargers, win or lose.

As for the Broncos/Chiefs game, the Chiefs are just getting banged up to hell. I knew they wouldn't be as lucky with injuries this year, I didn't think every pro bowler on the roster would go down in two weeks either.

Manning looks terrific. The running game is still a work in progress and the pass rush is too hit and miss right now. As I type this they rush three on a 3rd and 18, have I ever stated how much I hate that strategy?

Hit the nail on the head. Chargers played the exact game you have to. Be patient, execute the short passing game while making them have to respect the deep ball, be very effective on third down and don't turn the ball over. The fact that they managed to recover every fumble in the game was a big turning point as well. I was really hoping Wilson could lead the march at the end, but they tried to get way too cute with that jet sweep to start it off and the Chargers pass rush just smoked the offensive line after that.

And Antonio Gates, damn. Similar coverages to what Seattle used to shut down Jimmy Graham last year and Gates made them pay. He was fantastic.

Next weeks game is going to be just awesome.

[Coffee Warlord]

And this game needs more flags.

More flags!

[molson]

I thought the CBS pregame show was oddly compelling. Boomer going after AP hard, and emotionally, and saying he should never play in the NFL again. Charles Barkley (who was there, for some reason), defending AP's actions as a black southern thing a white guy like Boomer wouldn't understand, Jim Rome (who was there, for some reason), trying to throw Barkley a life preserver and seeing if he would distinguish "spanking" from what AP did, Barkley only kind of taking the help, and then Bart Scott, who's not at all network TV-ready, honestly drops that he's been in counseling to help with his rage issues, and then encouraged other players to seek similar help. I think Scott will get better and that he and Tony Gonzalez will be upgrades, entertainment-wise, over Sharpe and Marino.

And then, the football stuff wasn't too bad. I haven't followed things too closely but I felt like they delivered a good quick rundown of everything that was going on.

[Coffee Warlord]

That was a god damn catch.

[gstelmack]

Oh, and forget the QB controversy....at the end of the game today as the Bucs start off with 2 home games and 2 losses, I am sure that...

...this was every die-hard Bucs fans response when they got home from the game today.

Bucs' fans are used to it. The early 2000s success was an aberration.

[Lathum]

Jeez, what a pick

[Abe Sargent]

Anyone know what the record number of flags thrown in a game is? (not accepted, or per team, just those thrown)

[Abe Sargent]

Holding on the TD run and the Flag Bowl continues.

[Dutch]

The ref's just wiped out a damned exciting play on a bogus holding call. WTF?

[Vince, Pt. II]

That was a terrible holding call.

[Abe Sargent]

The ref's just wiped out a damned exciting play on a bogus holding call. WTF?

Maybe Vegas instituted a betting line on over/under for number of penalties called, and the refs have teh over? ;)

[Dutch]

Bucs' fans are used to it. The early 2000s success was an aberration.

Oh trust me I know, The 80's called Lovie last week, said they were back in town...

[Dutch]

Okay, so the Football Gods have spoken, Touchdown, SF-Gore, and that's final. :)

[Dutch]

And that crown to the chest of Cutler was classic disregard for what the NFL is trying to do. Ouch!

[Dutch]

Dayum! Brandon Marshall is a phenomenal.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Can't help but feel like the 49ers should be up by more than ten right now.

[TroyF]

Watching halftime and then read up on all of the sports spots on the internet. Evidently he can yap to everyone in the world when he plays well and his team wins, but doesn't find it so easy to respond to his team losing. The Chargers said he was exposed (a gross misrepresentation) and he responds on twitter "3 catches, 0 TD, 0 explosive plays LOL" This is also a gross misrepresentation because:

1) The Chargers attacked his side all day, even when he wasn't the main target
2) I know for a fact 2 of those 3 catches were huge first downs on third down plays.

It isn't shocking. Every single time Seattle loses, Sherman blames someone or something else on the loss. Now he's chosen to not talk about it.

If nothing else, he's a fun, enjoyable villain for me to cheer against. :) I hate that Denver probably loses again to him next week. I can hope for some more Chargers teams to punk him though.

[Vince, Pt. II]

What it comes down to is Seattle is the best team in the league without question at home (though the 49ers made it a hell of a game in the NFC Championship), but they are nothing more than a good team on the road.

[Vince, Pt. II]

These drive extending penalties on third down are fucking killing me.

[Abe Sargent]

Chicago now in this

[Abe Sargent]

Dang Bears!

[Vince, Pt. II]

Kaepernick with 4 turnovers. This is not how you win football games.

[NobodyHere]

I've lost all faith in my ability to pick the winners of football games.

[tucker rocky]

Bills, Arz, Hou, Car, alone in 1st place???

[Abe Sargent]

Bills, Arz, Hou, Car, alone in 1st place???

Yup, but I wouldn't consider that a surprise for Arizona or Carolina, since both had strong seasons last year.

[Abe Sargent]

This game should get a Delay of Game penalty

[Abe Sargent]

Good job Bears!

[Karlifornia]

Harbaugh made his choice: Steady Alex Smith, or feast or famine Kaepernick. I don't think he would have been wrong either way, but this what we've got

[Groundhog]

I liked a comment I saw on Twitter early: If it's 5 yards you need, Alex Smith will get you 5 yards. If it's 17 yards you need, Alex Smith will get you 5 yards.

[Sun Tzu]

Pretty embarrassing for the 49ers, who were clearly 2 classes above the Bears in talent. I haven't seen a team go into full-on meltdown mode like that in a while.

Unfortunately, Harbaugh's killer instinct (or lack thereof) reminds me of Mooch in the late 90's/early 2000's. This game could have been what it should have been (a blowout) if the 49ers hadn't let up on the gas at halftime.

Giving up 216 total yards and losing is laughable. 6 First downs for the Bears via penalty, and *multiple* scoring drives extended 2+ times via penalty.

[Sun Tzu]

Dola

In case anyone here is wondering if the 49ers are missing Bowman and Smith, arguably each being the best at their position in the league:

Michael Wilhoite, Bowman's replacement...had 3 tackles tonight. Willis had 8, 7 of which were solo.

Jay Cutler dropped back to pass 34 times, and was sacked once.

[kingfc22]

Just got home from Levi's. Good atmosphere but not an over-the-top crowd in terms of volume compared to the Stick. Hopefully, the noise picks up as the season continues especially when the team is on defense.

As for the game: flags, flags, flags, and more f'n flags. Holy geez that was brutal. And not just the sheer number of flags, but flags that had absolutely zero impact on plays granting teams first downs which drives me crazy.

Random thoughts: Niners need to be better in the redzone. Brandon Marshall is a beast and that TD catch was pretty incredible. Jonathan Martin was getting beaten like he stole something from Incognito's locker. Way too much read option today, not sure why Roman decided to not rely more on Gore and Hyde. Thank goodness this is only week 2.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jonathan Martin was getting beaten like he stole something from Incognito's locker

Reminded me of this
Channing Crowder: Jonathan Martin will “get everybody’s best” | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/01/channing-crowder-jonathan-martin-will-get-everybodys-best/)

[mrtourette]

So how much is the NFL actually going to get hurt by all these scandals? Do the majority of NFL fans even care? By care I mean being pissed off enough to not watch games or buy merchandize or anything else that would hurt the league financially.

Nope - Tailgating Vikings Fan Wears Adrian Peterson Jersey And Wields Switch (http://deadspin.com/tailgating-vikings-fan-wears-adrian-peterson-jersey-and-1634575091)

[stevew]

This is the first year I've had Red Zone and holy shit is that guy on top of stuff. I doubt I'll watch a normal game again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nope - Tailgating Vikings Fan Wears Adrian Peterson Jersey And Wields Switch (http://deadspin.com/tailgating-vikings-fan-wears-adrian-peterson-jersey-and-1634575091)

We'll see a "Petersen whips Team X" headline someday at some point.

[Desnudo]

Maybe Vegas instituted a betting line on over/under for number of penalties called, and the refs have teh over? ;)

Penalties are up a lot when compared to the last several years.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?&year=2014

[SteveMax58]

I have no faith in the Giants beating the texans. Watt is going to have about 7 sacks.
Think you have more faith in their o-line than me. :)

[SteveMax58]

I still think Tampa Bay would be better off playing Mike Glennon.

Yeah I agree.

We know Mccown is not a franchise QB. And for a rookie, Glennon really played very well last year & looks to have the right tools to be a solid QB. Not HoF potential but maybe Flacco potential. And that would be leaps & bounds above what McCown brings on his best day.

[mrtourette]

It always seemed like an odd move, especially as they tried to deal him as soon as Lovie Smith came in. McCown is a perfectly reasonable veteran backup but were they really expecting him to put up the same sort of stats he did with Chicago last year?

[weegeebored]

There's an old adage in psychology --"The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." I think that once a coach or player establishes a history of "behavior" you shouldn't think that will change. McCown is an average backup who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Look at the talent he had surrounding him -- Forte, Jeffrey, Marshall, Bennett. Hell...I could have had a career year. And Lovie is Lovie -- don't expect anything on offense. Look at his OC hires over his coaching tenure. He has no clue. He tried to make Devin Hester a #1 receiver! Tampa got what they should have expected to get.

[Coffee Warlord]

Has Lovie uttered, "Josh McCown is our quarterback" yet?

[Butter]

There's an old adage in psychology --"The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." I think that once a coach or player establishes a history of "behavior" you shouldn't think that will change. McCown is an average backup who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Look at the talent he had surrounding him -- Forte, Jeffrey, Marshall, Bennett. Hell...I could have had a career year. And Lovie is Lovie -- don't expect anything on offense. Look at his OC hires over his coaching tenure. He has no clue. He tried to make Devin Hester a #1 receiver! Tampa got what they should have expected to get.

Tampa can expect a future Super Bowl appearance then? Because I think they'd take that.

[weegeebored]

Tampa can expect a future Super Bowl appearance then? Because I think they'd take that.So, that one appearance (a loss) makes up for how many years of not making the playoffs? Sure he can get them there -- if he has four or more All-Pros on defense and a Hester-in-his-prime kick returner. But in a offensive-focused league he has no chance.

I haven't seen a Tampa game this year. Does he still have the classic "deer-in-the-headlights-I-don't-have-a clue-what's-going-on" look on the sidelines? But that's not the worst. It's the smug attitude, especially for a guy who really hasn't done much in his head coaching career.

[Arles]

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10612699_10153213231202575_5027908778059572840_n.jpg?oh=02f6b3b6aaee29286d4454a02c07c793&oe=5492FEEE

[Honolulu_Blue]

In a quarterback-driven league to get beat, at home, by Derek Anderson and Austin Davis (I am still not exactly sure who this is) is not good. Could be a long season in Tampa.

It was great to see Kyle Fuller, who the Lions passed on to draft a 3rd tight end, get two interceptions, while the Lions secondary struggled horribly on top of getting crushed with injuries.

Same Old Lions.

[molson]

AP reinstated already. I believe on the grounds that they lost by a lot yesterday.

[kingfc22]

Curious to see if the NFL's new directive on these 5 yard defensive penalties will lead to a removal of the automatic first down on illegal contact and hands to the face down the road.

If I'm an offensive coordinator and I have a 3rd and long, I'm always sending multiple receivers downfield as the odds of a flag with an automatic result of a first down is highly likely this season. Forget about the dump down pass or draw play to pick up yardage on 3rd and long.

[Coffee Warlord]

Tillman done for the season, and my guess is he retires.

[Julio Riddols]

Reading Adrian's statement it rings very honest to me. Again, this is just me, but he was going with what he knew and he was disciplining his child. Just because I haven't had to resort to similar means to achieve that ultimate parental end of an obedient and well behaved young man or woman doesn't mean what he did was wrong. He probably went a little overboard on it, but I still highly doubt this can or should be classified as abuse. It had sound reasoning behind it, it was just a bad choice of how to go about things. That choice was influenced by his knowledge of the effectiveness of such a punishment. As many people have stated in defense of the style, they are glad to have been whipped with a belt or spanked or switched as children because it taught them to be respectful. I fall in that category. My dad's belt was not a tool he enjoyed using, I tried to protect myself with my hands and I squirmed all over the place to avoid it, so it didn't always land on my ass every swing. It did leave bright red welts, because a soft spanking didn't teach me shit.

I would hope my respectfulness shows in the way I choose to discuss things with you all on this message board. I know my mother and father love me, and we have a great relationship with each other. I am very thankful for the discipline they instilled and the way they went about it. I don't believe Adrian Peterson meant to cause harm to his child as it is being portrayed, but that he intended to send a message to his son that the type of behavior he exhibited was not acceptable. I am fairly certain the point got across, too.

The court of public opinion will weigh heavily on this, and with news agencies spouting the most outrageous wording possible for the actions that occurred (using "tree branch" in place of "switch" for instance) it is hard to blame the public for getting up in arms more than they probably should. I have yet to speak to a single person in the wake of this who was spanked/switched/belted who thinks what Adrian did was really that much in the wrong. Some believe he was a little overaggressive, but none think his intent was to harm the child for no reason. It is entirely different from someone punching their wife or girlfriend, because there is no constructive reasoning behind those actions. This is the last I will speak on it, but my ultimate feeling is that it is a sensitive time for "abuse" in the NFL, and that is why this is coming to the forefront now after bouncing around for a while behind the scenes. I doubt this ever would have gotten to this point without the Ray Rice incident happening. I don't believe it is fair to lump them together because there was no reasonable intent behind one, while there was a clear purpose behind the other.

[molson]

I would hope my respectfulness shows in the way I choose to discuss things with you all on this message board. I know my mother and father love me, and we have a great relationship with each other. I am very thankful for the discipline they instilled and the way they went about it..

Did it ever go as far as it did in this case? Did they ever tear up your balls?

Whether or not parents should physically discipline their kids is an interesting discussion (and I think you've expressed your side of that argument very well), but it really has nothing to do with AP or what the NFL should do here. Nobody's getting suspended or criminally charged for spanking their kids. AP brutalized his kid. IMO, the injuries reflect that this wasn't done with loving discipline, but with rage. He lost control of himself and beat the shit out of his kid. If a parent is going to physically discipline their kid, they can't "go overboard". Then it's not discipline anymore, it's an emotion-fueled battery. If you can't control your emotions, and can't physically discipline your kid without "going overboard", then you can't lawfully physically discipline your kid.

[thesloppy]

I'm not necessarily against corporal punishment, but at the same time I have a hard time reasoning the need for any kind of tool. I don't think anybody would stand up for repeatedly whipping one's dog or one's spouse with a belt, or a switch, yet it's somewhat culturally acceptable to do the same to a child.

[thesloppy]

As an aside, this topic made me interested in corporal punishment laws/culture across the globe. This article gives a summary of national corporate punishment laws:

Corporal punishment policies around the world - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/11/08/country.comparisons.corporal.punishment/index.html)

[Julio Riddols]

Did it ever go as far as it did in this case? Did they ever tear up your balls?

Whether or not parents should physically discipline their kids is an interesting discussion (and I think you've expressed your side of that argument very well), but it really has nothing to do with AP or what the NFL should do here. Nobody's getting suspended or criminally charged for spanking their kids. AP brutalized his kid. IMO, the injuries reflect that this wasn't done with loving discipline, but with rage. He lost control of himself and beat the shit out of his kid. If a parent is going to physically discipline their kid, they can't "go overboard". Then it's not discipline anymore, it's an emotion-fueled battery. If you can't control your emotions, and can't physically discipline your kid without "going overboard", then you can't lawfully physically discipline your kid.

To be honest, I don't recall whether my balls ever got hit or not, but if I bend over and squeeze my legs together to brace for impact, there is no guarantee that my balls aren't slightly exposed. A belt or switch has a good chance of making contact in those situations, I assume. I know I always squirmed and tried my hardest to get away, because I knew shit was about to get real. I always brought it on myself, too. I can imagine a switch used with the same force as my dad used his belt would have probably broken the skin, because I have pretty sensitive skin to begin with. I would get scratches that drew blood from playing football in grass as a kid. The friggin' grass would break the skin.

[DaddyTorgo]

As an aside, this topic made me interested in corporal punishment laws/culture across the globe. This article gives a summary of national corporate punishment laws:

Corporal punishment policies around the world - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/11/08/country.comparisons.corporal.punishment/index.html)

They were just talking on this on NPR.

Basically illegal all around the world thanks to the UN's Human Rights of a Child pronouncement - which of course has not been signed by only a couple countries: notably Somalia and the USA.

[DaddyTorgo]

To be honest, I don't recall whether my balls ever got hit or not, but if I bend over and squeeze my legs together to brace for impact, there is no guarantee that my balls aren't slightly exposed. A belt or switch has a good chance of making contact in those situations, I assume. I know I always squirmed and tried my hardest to get away, because I knew shit was about to get real. I always brought it on myself, too. I can imagine a switch used with the same force as my dad used his belt would have probably broken the skin, because I have pretty sensitive skin to begin with. I would get scratches that drew blood from playing football in grass as a kid. The friggin' grass would break the skin.

Here's the other meaningful question - did he ever belt you with that ferocity when you were 4 years old?

Not taking a stand one way or another on physically disciplining children, but there's an appropriate level of physicality to use based on the child's age, and (note: i haven't been able to stomach looking at the pictures yet) this seems like it probably crossed that line pretty easily.

[sabotai]

Giants' CB Walter Thurmond tore his pectoral muscle and is done for the year.

Walter Thurmond tears pectoral, out for Giants' season - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000395214/article/walter-thurmond-tears-pectoral-out-for-giants-season)

[Julio Riddols]

As an aside, this topic made me interested in corporal punishment laws/culture across the globe. This article gives a summary of national corporate punishment laws:

Corporal punishment policies around the world - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/11/08/country.comparisons.corporal.punishment/index.html)

Very interesting to check out. It does appear the northern Europeans have adopted a non violent method of discipline across the board, while countries some might consider more uncivilized are generally in the no prohibition camp.

I do agree it is a very interesting subject, I just think Peterson is being made into a martyr here. I hope people can accept it if he goes to great lengths to improve himself because of this and that they don't always just feel like he is a basic child abuser. I think he and Rice both have a nice opportunity here to become a strong advocate against the thing they are being vilified for. I think Rice has a lot more work to do to re-earn public trust, but I think both have a chance to achieve redemption and make a positive difference if they use their situations as opportunities to promote self growth, while adhering to higher standards for themselves in the wake of the events that have transpired.

I think ultimately these events present an opportunity to bring the NFL into a position to promote more than just safe tackling and breast cancer awareness. I'd like to see them address this stuff in public service announcements or through other avenues and take it as a chance to educate while accepting that football itself is just a game, while life and living the right way and doing the right thing are far more important in the grand scheme of things.

[Julio Riddols]

Here's the other meaningful question - did he ever belt you with that ferocity when you were 4 years old?

Not taking a stand one way or another on physically disciplining children, but there's an appropriate level of physicality to use based on the child's age, and (note: i haven't been able to stomach looking at the pictures yet) this seems like it probably crossed that line pretty easily.

I believe when I was 4 it was open hand stuff. Not a lot of memories of being that age, but I don't truly recall the belt being a part of things until the hand lost its effectiveness. I sort of developed a tolerance over a few years. :)

[Julio Riddols]

I think ultimately every kid is different. You have to try many different things and see what works. For me, the most effective things have been to threaten to stop playing with him (I'll read a book to you, but I don't want to play when you're being a bad boy) Or taking away the thing he is most invested in at the moment. Conversely, offering rewards like ice cream or fruit snacks for good behavior has been really effective as he has learned how to communicate. The better he understands what I want or expect, the better we seem to get along. I don't see myself ever using a different form of punishment than the general soft psychological warfare of bending him to my will through persuasion. I am thankful for that.

For my dad, I think he did the most effective thing for me. Time in the corner failed entirely, and I had a killer imagination so I never felt the sting of having things taken away from me enough to have it actually be an effective form of punishment. I always feared the spanking though. The quick cure for my bad behavior was always to put a spanking on the table. I almost always quit right then and there, whatever it was I was doing.

[kingfc22]

And apparently Peterson is now being investigated for abusing another one of his kids. KHOU 11 News Houston on Twitter: "#KHOU #ITEAM Adrian Peterson investigated for another abuse accusation involving another one of his sons. More at 6! http://t.co/dH4tad2ovk" (https://twitter.com/KHOU/status/511644523861004288)

[thesloppy]

Very interesting to check out. It does appear the northern Europeans have adopted a non violent method of discipline across the board, while countries some might consider more uncivilized are generally in the no prohibition camp.

I also stumbled on this related article particularly about Sweden, which has apparently banned all corporal punishment since 1979:

In Sweden, a generation of kids who've never been spanked - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/)

It looks like both of those CNN articles were motivated by a 2011 video of a judge beating his teen daughter with a belt, which I vaguely remember.

[molson]

This was a "child discipline gone overboard" case in my neck of the woods. The "dead bug" is when you press your knees down on a kid's abdomen. It can kill them. You can kill a 4-year old if you strike them enough too, especially when you can't control your anger.

Daniel Ehrlick, Idaho Man, Gets Life For Killing 8-Year-Old Boy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/daniel-ehrlick-life-for-killing-8-year-old_n_946910.html)

[Lathum]

Abuse- "treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly."

Seems like what AP was doing if you ask me. How any rational person can look at those pictures and say it wasn't an act of violence is beyond me.

[Matthean]

And apparently Peterson is now being investigated for abusing another one of his kids. KHOU 11 News Houston on Twitter: "#KHOU #ITEAM Adrian Peterson investigated for another abuse accusation involving another one of his sons. More at 6! http://t.co/dH4tad2ovk" (https://twitter.com/KHOU/status/511644523861004288)

There was zero chance his beating of his 4-year old was the only time he did something like it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Especially when you see the text he sent to the mother of the kid that said "“You will be mad at me about his leg. He got about five more pops than normal . He didn’t drop one tear! … He’s tough as nails.”
(emphasis mine).

[cartman]

/*warning, armchair analysis*/

I wonder if the lack of response from the kid while the hits from the switch are being administered is in anyway some sort of disassociation as a coping mechanism.

[molson]

There was zero chance his beating of his 4-year old was the only time he did something like it.

And the same is true for Rice and beating women.

[mckerney]

There was zero chance his beating of his 4-year old was the only time he did something like it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>KHOU reporting Peterson is accused of beating another one of his four-year-olds so badly it left a scar on his face.</p>&mdash; Timothy Burke (@bubbaprog) <a href="https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/511653811371642880">September 15, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[DaddyTorgo]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>KHOU reporting Peterson is accused of beating another one of his four-year-olds so badly it left a scar on his face.</p>&mdash; Timothy Burke (@bubbaprog) <a href="https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/511653811371642880">September 15, 2014</a></blockquote>
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If that's true then he shouldn't play another down in the NFL...ever.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think ultimately every kid is different.

Q.F.T.

I suspect there's more than a few here who would be downright shocked how few spankings my child ever had.

It's about finding, and utilizing, what is effective. And that IS child-by-child.

[DaddyTorgo]

Q.F.T.

I suspect there's more than a few here who would be downright shocked how few spankings my child ever had.

It's about finding, and utilizing, what is effective. And that IS child-by-child.

This is true.

[Matthean]

And the same is true for Rice and beating women.

Absolutely.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I hate all of these 14 year Prius commercials. All of them. But the one where the family tries to re-create the family picture is just kind of creepy.

[Dutch]

BREAKING NEWS: Adrian Peterson is a piece of shit

[miked]

My 5 year old requires no beatings, time outs and other things seem to work. If you are resorting to physical punishment for a 4 year old, you have lost the game of life.

[cuervo72]

I hate all of these 14 year Prius commercials. All of them. But the one where the family tries to re-create the family picture is just kind of creepy.

Yeah, and the mom looks like she's from the 60s or something in the before pic. Wha?

[Marmel]

My 5 year old requires no beatings, time outs and other things seem to work. If you are resorting to physical punishment for a 4 year old, you have lost the game of life.

This needs to be said again and again and again. In fact, if you strike a child of any age, you lost the game of life. IMO, if you just defend the action of somebody else who did it, you lose.:banghead:

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yeah, and the mom looks like she's from the 60s or something in the before pic. Wha?

This is a good point. Why is the entire family dressed in clothes that make them look like they're from the 60's/70's/80's in 2000? 14 years isn't as long ago as they seem to think it is.

These commercials are the worst.

[cuervo72]

Probably realized that, wait - styles from 14 years ago are, uh, pretty much the same.

[NobodyHere]

Sooo ummm,

how bout them Colts?

[Lathum]

My 5 year old requires no beatings, time outs and other things seem to work. If you are resorting to physical punishment for a 4 year old, you have lost the game of life.

Exactly. If your kids behavior is so bad that they require beatings, they are likely learning that behavior from someone ( pssttttt...it's you)

[BillJasper]

My 5 year old requires no beatings, time outs and other things seem to work. If you are resorting to physical punishment for a 4 year old, you have lost the game of life.

Exactly. If your kids behavior is so bad that they require beatings, they are likely learning that behavior from someone ( pssttttt...it's you)

+1

[EagleFan]

There's a football game on?

[NobodyHere]

There's a football game on?

Yup, and a pretty darn good one if you're a Colts fan :)

[BishopMVP]

Is that Trent Richardson looking like an actual NFL running back?

I still like the Eagles to pull it out - their offense looks great between the 20's, sooner or later they'll start turning those drives into TD's.

[NobodyHere]

What a great interception!

[Buccaneer]

I can easily see Luck become my favorite QB when Brady is gone, he's probably my second favorite now anyway. Also, it is refreshing to actually like the Eagles now - I didn't like them even back in the 70s and 80s, let alone recently.

[Abe Sargent]

I also stumbled on this related article particularly about Sweden, which has apparently banned all corporal punishment since 1979:

In Sweden, a generation of kids who've never been spanked - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/)

It looks like both of those CNN articles were motivated by a 2011 video of a judge beating his teen daughter with a belt, which I vaguely remember.


From the article you linked:

"Robert Larzelere, a professor at Oklahoma State University's Department of Human Development and Family Science, said he recommends parents take classes to learn different methods to discipline their kids. Reasoning with kids is great, he said, and "time out" can be a useful tool. But he doesn't want all parents -- or regulations - to rule out a calm, "non-abusive spank" for kids ages 2 to 6.

Spanking young children as a backup to "time out" or reasoning can reduce aggression and noncompliance, he said"


So there you have it, a professional opinion that spanking a child, at four years old, is acceptable in some cases. AP may have taken it too far in this case, but the concept is solidly rooted.

Now, the article has a lot of points about how spanking can be negative too, but if you want to build a case for rearing your own child, you can calmly spank your child as appropriate.

[Buccaneer]

The only real change will be when sponsors start pulling out. Maybe those of us that have a low tolerance for violence and abuse can put pressure on the sponsors.

Looks like it has begun


On the same day the Vikings announced that Adrian Peterson would return to practice and play this week after he was deactivated Sunday following his arrest for "reckless or negligent injury to a child," Radisson announced that it was suspending its sponsorship of the team.

"Radisson takes this matter very seriously particularly in light of our long-standing commitment to the protection of children. We are closely following the situation and effective immediately, Radisson is suspending its limited sponsorship of the Minnesota Vikings while we evaluate the facts and circumstances."

[Bigsmooth]

Too much dancing out of McCoy...

We going to see the Sanchize soon?

[Julio Riddols]

How is it that a QB averaging less than 4 yards per attempt is considered good?

[thesloppy]

Some nickle psychology here: lots of folks are pretty adamant that switching/belting was necessary for them, in cases where other forms of discipline did not work. I wonder if the knowledge that there was another, steeper form of punishment could possibly serve to dilute the effectiveness of the lesser forms of punishment, if even subconsciously? That is, if I got the belt occasionally when I misbehaved, but only spanked/cuffed/grounded/reasoned-with on other occasions, would I subconsciously learn to accept the belt/switch as the only 'real' punishment, whereas anything more moderate would feel like tacit approval to keep doing whatever I wanted, until the belt came out? To what degree (if at all) do y'all think it's the corporal methods themselves that serve to make the other, less severe methods ineffective?

[cuervo72]

I think Fonzie or RKG called that 3rd down play.

/FOF reference

[korme]

Philly can just zap a lead before anyone can blink. Fun to watch.

[JPhillips]

From the article you linked:

"Robert Larzelere, a professor at Oklahoma State University's Department of Human Development and Family Science, said he recommends parents take classes to learn different methods to discipline their kids. Reasoning with kids is great, he said, and "time out" can be a useful tool. But he doesn't want all parents -- or regulations - to rule out a calm, "non-abusive spank" for kids ages 2 to 6.

Spanking young children as a backup to "time out" or reasoning can reduce aggression and noncompliance, he said"


So there you have it, a professional opinion that spanking a child, at four years old, is acceptable in some cases. AP may have taken it too far in this case, but the concept is solidly rooted.

Now, the article has a lot of points about how spanking can be negative too, but if you want to build a case for rearing your own child, you can calmly spank your child as appropriate.

Lashing a child 6-12 times with a stick, hard enough to break the skin and wild enough to repeatedly hit his testicles is not, "calmly spanking as appropriate."

[NobodyHere]

Is that Trent Richardson looking like an actual NFL running back?


Not with that fumble he isn't.

[Julio Riddols]

I think I'm gonna give it another 6-12 months before I say anything else or form any other opinions regarding my thoughts on Peterson or punishment.

[NobodyHere]

The Colts really needed that touchdown. I'm not sure if the defense has anything left in them.

[Julio Riddols]

Please no TD's to Ertz or Hilton....

[NobodyHere]

Well they apparently had a 3 and out left :)

[Abe Sargent]

Pcik baby!

[BishopMVP]

Not with that fumble he isn't.Yeah, he looks a whole lot more like the Trent Richardson we all know in the 2nd half here.

[Bigsmooth]

Lashing a child 6-12 times with a stick, hard enough to break the skin and wild enough to repeatedly hit his testicles is not, "calmly spanking as appropriate."

Not to mention he's 6'1" 217lbs of muscle. Just seems crazy he's whipping a 4 year old.

[bhlloy]

Refs just fucked the colts twice

[Abe Sargent]

SPROLES BABAY!!!

[NobodyHere]

Refs just fucked the colts twice

Yes. They. Did.

[Lathum]

These games are on too late.

[Eaglesfan27]

Refs just fucked the colts twice

Yep.. bad calls. Love watching Sproles do work for the Eagles.

[Abe Sargent]

Yep.. bad calls. Love watching Sproles do work for the Eagles.

Me too!

[NobodyHere]

These games are on too late.

It's still better than NHL playoff hockey, when you're a Detroit fan and they're playing some team in California.

[Abe Sargent]

And Sproles keeps on going!

[Lathum]

Jeez. Could the colts have let that clock run any more before calling a timeout.

[Abe Sargent]

EAGLES with the win folks!

[cuervo72]

Damn, that is a good win.

[NobodyHere]

And a terrible end to a terrible day.

[Dutch]

Good game, Eagles!

[Julio Riddols]

Andrew Suck, am I right?

[NobodyHere]

Andrew Suck, am I right?

3 TDs is nothing to sneeze at, and the pick wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a horrible no-call.

[Julio Riddols]

3 TDs is nothing to sneeze at, and the pick wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a horrible no-call.

Yeah, he had 3 TD's, but with those receivers shouldn't he be doing better than 5 yards per attempt? He had good support from the run game and it was against a fairly bad defense.. I understand the pick shouldn't have happened, but I just feel like the guy should be hitting a higher percentage of his passes or averaging more per pass. He seems to be able to turn it on late in games, but something has been way off for him in the first half, and that seems to be the case quite often. Is it the playcalling? Is it Luck just being conservative until he can't afford to be conservative anymore? He is developing quite a pattern of sucky first halves followed by strong second halves. I think if he played the whole game like he does late in the game, the Colts would be smashing people. It's like the opposite of what Manning does.

[NobodyHere]

Yeah, he had 3 TD's, but with those receivers shouldn't he be doing better than 5 yards per attempt? He had good support from the run game and it was against a fairly bad defense.. I understand the pick shouldn't have happened, but I just feel like the guy should be hitting a higher percentage of his passes or averaging more per pass. He seems to be able to turn it on late in games, but something has been way off for him in the first half, and that seems to be the case quite often. Is it the playcalling? Is it Luck just being conservative until he can't afford to be conservative anymore? He is developing quite a pattern of sucky first halves followed by strong second halves. I think if he played the whole game like he does late in the game, the Colts would be smashing people. It's like the opposite of what Manning does.

If we're going to make Manning comparisons then keep in mind Manning played the same way early in his career. The Colts would fall into early deficits and it would be up to Manning to catch up.

[Julio Riddols]

I just can't wrap my head around it. It seems like he ought to be lighting people up, but I guess maybe my expectations are a bit high.

[TroyF]

I just can't wrap my head around it. It seems like he ought to be lighting people up, but I guess maybe my expectations are a bit high.

This is the first time he has ever lost two games in a row. Both were to playoff teams.

If the refs don't screw him, he wins this one and his streak stays in tact. Then the coach has a massive brain cramp and calls two straight runs instead of putting the ball in their best players hands.

Look, only a couple of teams in the NFL would say no to Luck being their starting quarterback. There is nothing wrong with that guy. Nothing.

[Racer]

This is the first time he has ever lost two games in a row. Both were to playoff teams.

If the refs don't screw him, he wins this one and his streak stays in tact. Then the coach has a massive brain cramp and calls two straight runs instead of putting the ball in their best players hands.

Look, only a couple of teams in the NFL would say no to Luck being their starting quarterback. There is nothing wrong with that guy. Nothing.

I don't Luck had anything to do with why the Colts lost yesterday. Having seen every game he has ever played for the Colts, he is not the issue. He's a really good young QB. The Colts lost because

1. A costly fumble by Trent Richardson
2. Two terrible calls/miscalls by the refs which seemed to completely deflate the defense
3. Poor offensive play calling late by Pep Hamilton. In general, I think Pep Hamilton's play calling has been rather questionable at times and I think they should replace him.

[Qwikshot]

Great to see another Eagles win...

on the AP thing...couple of issues I have:

1) AP said he did it to keep his kids in line much like his parents did before him...however, AP is a millionaire who probably lives in a far better environment than what he grew up in (not having read up on him, I'm assuming here). AP has far more options than the fall back beat the crap of my kids thing because they need to learn discipline.
(Strike One)

2) AP much like any other professional athlete is stronger and more athletic (for the most part, I can discount some athletes like Bartolo Colon, but I digress). They're more capable of damage because they are trained to be in peak performance, football players especially...I don't know AP's family, but I'm surmising his whuppings weren't from a professional. He should know that.
(Strike Two)

3) It's a four year old.
(Strike Three)

I'd have shown him the door for a year. I think it's disgusting he gets a pass, and he is getting a pass. A regular guy doing this would have had his butt in jail and his kids taken away.

[BillJasper]

A regular guy doing this would have had his butt in jail and his kids taken away.

Rich folks are better than the rest of us. Don't you know that?

[Qwikshot]

Rich folks are better than the rest of us. Don't you know that?

Only the NFL would ban a man for knocking out a woman (thanks to video), but kids are still okay to beat, especially if they're yours.

[Sun Tzu]

Quite a week for the refs. Sounds like two games were heavily influenced by calls (Colts v Eagles, Bears v 49ers). I completely agree that defenses are deflating and effectively "giving up" after being called for phantom call after phantom call, all of which are resulting in backbreaking automatic first downs.

[TroyF]

I'd have shown him the door for a year. I think it's disgusting he gets a pass, and he is getting a pass. A regular guy doing this would have had his butt in jail and his kids taken away.

I do not want to get too personal here, but I can tell you from first hand experience (being the boy) and second hand experience (neice) that your last line is incorrect. Pretty much any of us are out on bond, would ger first time offender counseling and be given the child back in under 90 days.

I am not tellong you it is right or wrong, it just is.


On the other side, I can tell you fromfirst hand experience people CAN change and can become important, worthwhile people in their childrens lives after something like this happens. Thr does not mean I think he should suit up this weekend. Playing in this leaufe should be an honor, it should be treated with a higher standard.

[gstelmack]

Thought on officiating - I know there have always been bad calls, but perhaps the issue over the last few years is that with the increasing parity in the NFL, we have more close games, which means officiating mistakes like those last night have an even bigger influence on the outcome?

I know with slow mo replay we know about far more officiating mistakes than we used to, but when there's a big lead you won't care as much. But there aren't as many late big leads, so late officiating mistakes are more likely to affect the outcome.

[Logan]

These players are just so fucking stupid. I was just listening to Reggie Bush being interviewed on the radio in NY. Because Boomer Esiason and his co-host Craig Carton were talking about Peterson prior, they start out asking Bush if he thinks Peterson should be playing. "Definitely." Had some interference on my feed but I'm pretty sure he said he disciplines his ONE YEAR OLD girl in a similar way...granted, I could have (and hope I did) mishear the age. He then kept going on about how this is how he got disciplined and he sees nothing wrong with it, etc. I'm sure you'll hear more about this today.

I'm not stupid, I know a lot of people believe this is all okay. But how do you go on major radio show that's simulcasted on TV nationally and not lie or come up with some other BS answer to not make yourself sound like a horrible person? These guys do similar things when being interviewed about football all the time - speak in generalities and tell the media/sideline reporter what they want to hear.

And the best part? Afterwards it's "Well Reggie is here to talk about Taco Bell's new program of outreach for at-risk teens"...

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think the point is that they don't think this constitutes horrible behavior. This is how they were raised, and it's the norm to them. I had a discussion with my buddy about this whole thing, and we figure that there is a solid portion of the nation who are wondering why this is even newsworthy.

[DaddyTorgo]

These players are just so fucking stupid. I was just listening to Reggie Bush being interviewed on the radio in NY. Because Boomer Esiason and his co-host Craig Carton were talking about Peterson prior, they start out asking Bush if he thinks Peterson should be playing. "Definitely." Had some interference on my feed but I'm pretty sure he said he disciplines his ONE YEAR OLD girl in a similar way...granted, I could have (and hope I did) mishear the age. He then kept going on about how this is how he got disciplined and he sees nothing wrong with it, etc. I'm sure you'll hear more about this today.

I'm not stupid, I know a lot of people believe this is all okay. But how do you go on major radio show that's simulcasted on TV nationally and not lie or come up with some other BS answer to not make yourself sound like a horrible person? These guys do similar things when being interviewed about football all the time - speak in generalities and tell the media/sideline reporter what they want to hear.

And the best part? Afterwards it's "Well Reggie is here to talk about Taco Bell's new program of outreach for at-risk teens"...

Umm...wow if that's true.

[flounder]

The way we treat kids in this country is astonishing. You let your kids play outside unattended and we throw you in jail. You beat the crap out of them and it's good parenting.

[Logan]

Looks like I heard the age correctly.

Reggie Bush Says He ‘Harshly’ Disciplines 1-Year-Old Daughter « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/09/16/reggie-bush-on-wfan-i-discipline-my-1-year-old-daughter-harshly/)

NEW YORK (WFAN) — Reggie Bush is rushing to the defense of Adrian Peterson, saying he too disciplines his 1-year-old daughter, sometimes “harshly.”

The Detroit Lions running back, appearing Tuesday on WFAN’s “Boomer & Carton” show, said Peterson should be allowed to play football despite being indicted on charges of child abuse for hitting his 4-year-old son with a tree branch, causing cuts to the child’s legs.

“I was punished the same way,” Bush said. “And I know a lot of my friends and a lot of the guys I played with, they were punished the same way, too.”

As for his daughter, the 29-year-old Bush said he uses his “best judgment” when it comes to punishment.

“I most definitely discipline my daughter. I have a 1-year-old daughter, and I discipline her,” he said. “I definitely will try to — will obviously not leave bruises or anything like that on her. But I definitely will discipline her harshly depending on what the situation is.”

Bush was asked point-blank whether he’d consider using a “switch” on his child: “I would possibly consider it, depending on what she did.”

The running back, who accused social media of acting as judge, jury and executioner in the Peterson case, later backtracked.

“No, I didn’t say a branch or a stick,” he said. “I said spanking. Spanking is different than a branch or a stick.”

[DaddyTorgo]

I agree that spanking is different than a branch or a stick. I disagree that "harshly disciplining" a 1 year old is possible.

Shit...I think disciplining any child under the age of like 4-5 in any way/shape/form ends up being more trouble than its worth (which isn't to say you let them be terrors, but i think when they're younger that positive reinforcement/parenting pays far greater dividends).

[Lathum]

I think the point is that they don't think this constitutes horrible behavior. This is how they were raised, and it's the norm to them.

As do men in the Middle East who stone their wives to death...

[molson]

I would bet anything Ray Rice was "disciplined" like that as a child. That's what child abuse breeds, women beaters.

[Qwikshot]

Seriously, as I've said, these are men who make serious money, they don't need to protect their children from the streets (they do apparently need to protect them from themselves).

[BishopMVP]

I'd have shown him the door for a year. I think it's disgusting he gets a pass, and he is getting a pass. A regular guy doing this would have had his butt in jail and his kids taken away.Sadly, no - as TroyF (and the Rice situation) pointed out, first-time offenders are rarely sent to jail for anything less than putting someone in the hospital.

And we still don't know whether he'll be punished by the state of Texas, or the NFL. I wouldn't have a problem with a team suspending a player once they're charged or booked, but I also don't really have a problem with the NFL deciding to wait until the trial happens (or, more likely, is pled out) and seeing what other information comes to light at that time/how the state (who has the authority to subpoena people and evidence) ends up punishing him.

Besides, it seems a bit of a crapshoot which people the media decides to be outraged about. The Greg Hardy 911 tape is out there, Terrell Suggs poured bleach on his wife and daughter, going back James Harrison got arrested for domestic violence multiple times, Greg Lloyd put a gun in his 9 year old's mouth and threatened to kill him, Dave Meggett was going around raping girls when he wasn't beating them up, etc. Those are just some of the ones I can think of off the top of my head, and I know it isn't fair to compare the NFL's discipline, but I don't recall the media making those a story either.

[BishopMVP]

Seriously, as I've said, these are men who make serious money, they don't need to protect their children from the streets (they do apparently need to protect them from themselves).Well, depends on how many kids they have. Every story involving AP involves another kid with a different woman in a different state - he might have more than Antonio Cromartie at this point! Maybe he's going for Shawn Kemp's record.

[BillJasper]

I would bet anything Ray Rice was "disciplined" like that as a child. That's what child abuse breeds, women beaters.

I'm not a perfect parent, but even I don't think it's a good idea to punish a one-year old harshly. Just because these guys grew up in that environment doesn't mean they shouldn't strive to be better than that. They also likely grew up watching their Moms and Sisters getting beat up as well.

My Grandpa beat my Dad, my Dad beat me. I made a conscious effort to not bring my kids up that way and it seems to have worked. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been a physical component to punishment but I always used it as a last resort and a way to grab their attention.

[molson]

And we still don't know whether he'll be punished by the state of Texas, or the NFL. I wouldn't have a problem with a team suspending a player once they're charged or booked, but I also don't really have a problem with the NFL deciding to wait until the trial happens (or, more likely, is pled out) and seeing what other information comes to light at that time/how the state (who has the authority to subpoena people and evidence) ends up punishing him.

Besides, it seems a bit of a crapshoot which people the media decides to be outraged about. The Greg Hardy 911 tape is out there, Terrell Suggs poured bleach on his wife and daughter, going back James Harrison got arrested for domestic violence multiple times, Greg Lloyd put a gun in his 9 year old's mouth and threatened to kill him, Dave Meggett was going around raping girls when he wasn't beating them up, etc. Those are just some of the ones I can think of off the top of my head, and I know it isn't fair to compare the NFL's discipline, but I don't recall the media making those a story either.

I'm still struggling with that question of what the league and team should do when charges are pending. If a conviction means a suspension, he won't end up with a conviction. Just like Rice. There will be mandatory parenting classes, a probation period, and then charges will be dismissed at the end of that. Maybe 1-2 years from now. There's no point to a punishment when you lose that immediacy. They'd be punishing a different guy. (And how can you punish a guy at all a year after the court system has dismissed his charges at the end of a diversion program)? Him playing this week sends the message that the Vikings and the NFL don't think this is a big deal, same with all the other examples you mentioned.

I think the NFL and the teams need bigger balls on all this. No player is that important. There's no protected liberty interest in playing football. Suspend with pay if you need to. The union with throw a fit, but this is the time to take on this fight, they have the public and media on their side.

[Sun Tzu]

Wait...people are now saying that it's okay to beat your kid?

What the fuck.

[JonInMiddleGA]

but I don't recall the media making those a story either.

Anything for a buck, even faux outrage.

Did you see the SportsNation poll results about Peterson?
400k votes, 62% support his reinstatement.

Yeah yeah, I know, random poll,sports fan bias, people worried about their fantasy teams, all that.

But ... 3 states are 50-50, 3 states said no ... and 44 states approved.
Strongest approval is, as most of us would probably have bet, in the South.
But it's nearly 2:1 in California (not exactly a bastion of traditionalism), 60-40 in Washington, 63-37 in Arizona. (I'm trying to look far enough away from the NFC Central to avoid that bias).

Even with all the limitations of self-selecting polls, that's pretty strong results. Based on what's out there so far it seems pretty clear that this is an area where the media is creating headlines to fit a narrative that rings hollow with their viewers.

[Lathum]

Anything for a buck, even faux outrage.

Did you see the SportsNation poll results about Peterson?
400k votes, 62% support his reinstatement.

Yeah yeah, I know, random poll,sports fan bias, people worried about their fantasy teams, all that.

But ... 3 states are 50-50, 3 states said no ... and 44 states approved.
Strongest approval is, as most of us would probably have bet, in the South.
But it's nearly 2:1 in California (not exactly a bastion of traditionalism), 60-40 in Washington, 63-37 in Arizona. (I'm trying to look far enough away from the NFC Central to avoid that bias).

Even with all the limitations of self-selecting polls, that's pretty strong results. Based on what's out there so far it seems pretty clear that this is an area where the media is creating headlines to fit a narrative that rings hollow with their viewers.

You can be against the act but still feel he deserves to play and let due process take its place.

TBH I don't know how I feel. I think it is a slippery slope to start fucking with peoples livlihood based on accusations, but I think what he did is vile and am disgusted there is a whole subset of our culture that feels this is normal.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm still struggling with that question of what the league and team should do when charges are pending. If a conviction means a suspension, he won't end up with a conviction. Just like Rice. There will be mandatory parenting classes, a probation period, and then charges will be dismissed at the end of that. Maybe 1-2 years from now. There's no point to a punishment when you lose that immediacy. They'd be punishing a different guy. (And how can you punish a guy at all a year after the court system has dismissed his charges at the end of a diversion program)? Him playing this week sends the message that the Vikings and the NFL don't think this is a big deal, same with all the other examples you mentioned.

I think the NFL and the teams need bigger balls on all this. No player is that important. There's no protected liberty interest in playing football. Suspend with pay if you need to. The union with throw a fit, but this is the time to take on this fight, they have the public and media on their side.

Agreed - they can't play this "we'll wait for the legal system to play itself out" card that much longer before people catch on to what a joke it is. The stuff gets plead down/dismissed/whatever by local prosecutors (because that's what they do or because they're fans) and then the league just goes "oh well there was no conviction so no big deal." Or it takes so long to play out in the courts that the guy's career is over/his role is reduced by the time the NFL gets around to punishing them.

Sponsors and fans need to continue to ratchet up the PR-pressure in order for the NFL to proactively address these situations.

Agree with you that there's no protected liberty interest in these guys playing football - so what if AP gets suspended and loses a year of his career. Maybe that'll show these other spoiled-ass grown men that they need to conduct themselves in a different manner. Will we miss seeing him on the field? Sure. But you know what - the league will go on just fine - somebody else will just have an opportunity to shine.

[molson]

I couldn't find the ESPN polls but the first few unscientific other polls I found on Google were hilariously worded. "Should Adrian Peterson be banned for spanking his child?" Others had three choices and two similarly answers that needed to be added together to get a real number. Edit: And I do think a lot of people are drawn to the idea of "lets let thing play out". Just like the NFL and the teams are. Because it's easier to just not take a stand either way.

[Lathum]

We have heard a lot of quotes like

“ it is a cultural thing”
“I was raised that way, my Dad did that to me”
“every black parent in the south would go to prison”

Basically a lot of commentary that it is normal in that culture and those not a part of that culture wouldn’t understand.
Perhaps there is a correlation to there being a much higher percentage of black men in prison and committing crimes because of this culture of discipline? Could it be that it is engrained in them from the time they can remember that if someone does something you don’t like that violence is the appropriate response?
Now obviously there are many black men disciplined this way that turn out fine, and many white men who don’t, so obviously it is somewhat of a generalization, but it seems to me that violently beating your child from the time they are a year old can certainly teach them violence is an OK response, and Barkley and others have basically said a large number of black parents engage in this behavior.
Not saying there aren’t a lot of other outside factors, and it is obviously a complex issue, but it certainly seems to me it contributes to a cycle of violent behavior.

[BillJasper]

There has to be a way to hold people accountable while things work through the legal system. Perhaps you take a large portion of said players paycheck every week for so many weeks. Put it in an interest earning account, if any verdict other than "not guilty" (no pleading out to lesser charges) is handed down, that salary is donated to charity.

Teams wouldn't get the same luxury. Have NFL Security grade every prospect based on his criminal history, if you take someone that has been flagged and they get in trouble while on your roster, you lose multiple high draft picks.

[thesloppy]

Perhaps there is a correlation to there being a much higher percentage of black men in prison and committing crimes because of this culture of discipline? Could it be that it is engrained in them from the time they can remember that if someone does something you don’t like that violence is the appropriate response?

This is probably putting a bit too sharp of a point on it, but it seems worth noting that we're talking about nearly an entire race/culture who were getting whipped into discipline a handful of generations ago. I don't think we can discount or dismiss that critical difference in history/culture, even if it now seems so far removed.

[BillJasper]

We have heard a lot of quotes like

“ it is a cultural thing”
“I was raised that way, my Dad did that to me”
“every black parent in the south would go to prison”



Speaking as an abused child, the violence gets to a point where it didn't matter. The beatings I did deserve when I did really bad things had no impact on me because I was numb to the pain at that point. "No" didn't mean anything to me either.

[molson]

Any other job with public visibility, you're not going to be going to work like nothing happened while violent criminal charges are pending against you. I don't know what we have so much heartache over it when it's football players.

[Lathum]

Any other job with public visibility, you're not going to be going to work like nothing happened while violent criminal charges are pending against you. I don't know what we have so much heartache over it when it's football players.

New England Patriots vs. Minnesota Vikings - Box Score - September 14, 2014 - ESPN (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400554235)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Any other job with public visibility, you're not going to be going to work like nothing happened while violent criminal charges are pending against you. I don't know what we have so much heartache over it when it's football players.

Umm ... does "public visibility" = mainstream media attention there?

I mean, you can deal with the public while it's only a narrow segment of the public is what I'm getting at.

Not quite the same exact scenario, but what I'm getting at is something like a guy I worked with in Atlanta in the ad agency business. Agency president, he had criminal charges pending (drunkenly ran over a wedding party in his boat, maimed the bride, seriously injured another) but continued right along in his job, including working closely with a couple of very large global conglomerates AND attended industry awards shows & the like while those were being adjudicated. He was, for all intents, the "public face" of our company ... but the "public" was a very narrow subset.

I can't imagine the decision to leave him in place would have been any different if he had Petersen's charges instead of the ones he was facing.

[Arles]

From the article you linked:

"Robert Larzelere, a professor at Oklahoma State University's Department of Human Development and Family Science, said he recommends parents take classes to learn different methods to discipline their kids. Reasoning with kids is great, he said, and "time out" can be a useful tool. But he doesn't want all parents -- or regulations - to rule out a calm, "non-abusive spank" for kids ages 2 to 6.

Spanking young children as a backup to "time out" or reasoning can reduce aggression and noncompliance, he said"


So there you have it, a professional opinion that spanking a child, at four years old, is acceptable in some cases. AP may have taken it too far in this case, but the concept is solidly rooted.

Now, the article has a lot of points about how spanking can be negative too, but if you want to build a case for rearing your own child, you can calmly spank your child as appropriate.
Equating a "non-abusive spank" to what Peterson did is a akin to someone drinking 4 bottles of wine and driving home with a justification of "my doc said a little wine every few days is good for my heart". They are leagues apart. I have an 18 month old and a 9 year old (both boys). I've slapped their hands lightly if they pushed someone/tried to bite in the 16 months to 4 year old time frame. But that's the extent. Never spanked nor hit in any fashion. My 9 year old is extremely well behaved and looks almost terrified of me when he does something wrong. But, not because of an impending beating, but because of a combination of the disapproval he will get from me and the loss of privileges he enjoys (Xbox, TV, legos, ...). Parenting is different for each kid and I think I will need to be a little more strict on my 18-month old (who resembles a mini terrorist right now), but there will never be a situation where striking him or beating him with some tool is justified.

I am completely fine with people defending a light spanking or smack on the hands when in the 2-4 range to help them understand what behavior is correct - but that's where it ends in my view. Equating a "light spanking" with what Peterson did is apples and oranges to me.

[DaddyTorgo]

Exactly Arles

[Arles]

Kudos to Minnesota governor Mark Dayton:
Minnesota governor Mark Dayton says Minnesota Vikings should suspend Adrian Peterson - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11537857/minnesota-governor-mark-dayton-says-minnesota-vikings-suspend-adrian-peterson)
Mark Dayton -- who spearheaded the legislative fight for the Vikings' new $1 billion stadium and stood next to team owner Zygi Wilf at the groundbreaking last November -- released a statement on Tuesday saying he believes the Vikings should take Peterson off the field until his child abuse case is resolved in Montgomery County, Texas.

Peterson was indicted on one count of reckless or negligent injury to a child Thursday, stemming from an incident earlier this year where he used a switch to discipline his son, and he will make his first appearance in court on Oct. 8. His case might not go to trial until next year, however, and the Vikings announced on Monday that Peterson will be allowed to play while his case is being decided.

That move, Dayton said Tuesday, was a mistake.

"It is an awful situation," he said in a statement provided to The Associated Press. "Yes, Mr. Peterson is entitled to due process and should be 'innocent until proven guilty.' However, he is a public figure; and his actions, as described, are a public embarrassment to the Vikings organization and the state of Minnesota. Whipping a child to the extent of visible wounds, as has been alleged, should not be tolerated in our state. Therefore, I believe the team should suspend Mr. Peterson, until the accusations of child abuse have been resolved by the criminal justice system.

[molson]

Umm ... does "public visibility" = mainstream media attention there?

I mean, you can deal with the public while it's only a narrow segment of the public is what I'm getting at.

Not quite the same exact scenario, but what I'm getting at is something like a guy I worked with in Atlanta in the ad agency business. Agency president, he had criminal charges pending (drunkenly ran over a wedding party in his boat, maimed the bride, seriously injured another) but continued right along in his job, including working closely with a couple of very large global conglomerates AND attended industry awards shows & the like while those were being adjudicated. He was, for all intents, the "public face" of our company ... but the "public" was a very narrow subset.

I can't imagine the decision to leave him in place would have been any different if he had Petersen's charges instead of the ones he was facing.

I guess there's a few ways to have public visibility as an employee. You can be famous, you can be a public employee, you can deal with the general public, or you can work for a company that interacts with the public or whom has high visibility with the general public. I think most of the above would be either outright fired, or put on some kind of leave if they were facing violent criminal charges. At some level, that's unfair. But in America, in most contexts, you can be fired (or suspended with pay) for almost anything. Violent criminal charges that have gotten through a grand jury or probable cause determination, along with evidence floating out in the media that anyone can see is plenty of justification. More "due process" is needed before the government can lock you up or give you that branding of a conviction, obviously, but employees are not so constrained. That sounds obvious, but when it comes to professional athletes, a lot of people seem to disagree. A lot of people, including the NFL as a whole, do see professional sports team employment as a protected liberty interest that needs to be protected to the same degree as someone's liberty in the criminal justice system.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That sounds obvious, but when it comes to professional athletes, a lot of people seem to disagree.

And I guess (maybe?) what I was getting at is that perhaps I'm not the only person who has seen cases where there's simply no professional ramifications while something winds its way through the court. Perhaps -- and I'm as much spitballing here as anything, I'm certainly not making a definitive statement -- that's the root of some of this disagreement?

[Logan]

To me, "let it play out" in a situation like Ray McDonald's makes sense. He denies doing anything wrong. It might be 1%, but there's a chance he's telling the truth.

Peterson has admitted to what he's done. He's not denying that he produced what we have seen in those pictures, you have text messages from him admitting to everything, saying that this is how he disciplines. A team or a league can suspend him on that behavior alone and don't need to wait on anything.

One other thing...I know the legal system is overworked and it could take forever to get cases heard, but I'm not sure how much of that is defense lawyer-generated and how much is strain on the system (molson and others I'm sure can educate me). But if you instituted a policy where players facing charges start losing game checks immediately (or at least escrowing large portions as I proposed a few days ago), I bet you won't see too many of those delays take place if a player is desperate to clear their name while also barely earning a living, from their normal perspective.

I'm pretty sure McDonald was supposed to have his initial hearing relatively soon and it's been delayed, and may not have even been rescheduled yet. Again, I'm ignorant on how this works mechanically but if a judge ends up stating this was a delay caused by the defense, I'd be fine with the NFL stepping in at that point and saying you're suspended indefinitely. It's complete bullshit if these guys work the system just to delay paying the piper, all while being able to earn millions in the interim. And that's exactly what will end up happening with Peterson.

[DaddyTorgo]

To me, "let it play out" in a situation like Ray McDonald's makes sense. He denies doing anything wrong. It might be 1%, but there's a chance he's telling the truth.

Peterson has admitted to what he's done. He's not denying that he produced what we have seen in those pictures, you have text messages from him admitting to everything, saying that this is how he disciplines. A team or a league can suspend him on that behavior alone and don't need to wait on anything.

One other thing...I know the legal system is overworked and it could take forever to get cases heard, but I'm not sure how much of that is defense lawyer-generated and how much is strain on the system (molson and others I'm sure can educate me). But if you instituted a policy where players facing charges start losing game checks immediately (or at least escrowing large portions as I proposed a few days ago), I bet you won't see too many of those delays take place if a player is desperate to clear their name while also barely earning a living, from their normal perspective.


This actually sorta makes sense...

[DaddyTorgo]

And I guess (maybe?) what I was getting at is that perhaps I'm not the only person who has seen cases where there's simply no professional ramifications while something winds its way through the court. Perhaps -- and I'm as much spitballing here as anything, I'm certainly not making a definitive statement -- that's the root of some of this disagreement?

You two are disagreeing/quibbling over definitions of "public figure" and "in the public eye" and nothing else.

A CEO of anything less than say a Fortune 100 company is less "in the public eye" (even on a local basis) then a professional athlete. Yeah, it probably has to do with your "regularly attracting mainstream media attention" criteria.

[AENeuman]

We have heard a lot of quotes like

“ it is a cultural thing”
“I was raised that way, my Dad did that to me”
“every black parent in the south would go to prison”

Basically a lot of commentary that it is normal in that culture and those not a part of that culture wouldn’t understand.
Perhaps there is a correlation to there being a much higher percentage of black men in prison and committing crimes because of this culture of discipline? Could it be that it is engrained in them from the time they can remember that if someone does something you don’t like that violence is the appropriate response?
Now obviously there are many black men disciplined this way that turn out fine, and many white men who don’t, so obviously it is somewhat of a generalization, but it seems to me that violently beating your child from the time they are a year old can certainly teach them violence is an OK response, and Barkley and others have basically said a large number of black parents engage in this behavior.
Not saying there aren’t a lot of other outside factors, and it is obviously a complex issue, but it certainly seems to me it contributes to a cycle of violent behavior.

First thing Jeffery Canada does in his Harlem Children Zone is have the parents go through "Baby College" which, at its core is teaching an alternative to physical discipline.

[Kodos]

If I was an owner, the policy for domestic violence against a woman or child would be simple: you are cut. Maybe my team wouldn't win much, but at least I could sleep at night knowing I took a stand against the assholes of the world.

[BillJasper]

Anheuser-Busch disappointed, concerned, dissatisfied with NFL | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/16/anheuser-busch-disappointed-concerned-dissatisfied-with-nfl/)

I think this is where you'll begin to see real movement on these issues.

[molson]

Anheuser-Busch disappointed, concerned, dissatisfied with NFL | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/16/anheuser-busch-disappointed-concerned-dissatisfied-with-nfl/)

I think this is where you'll begin to see real movement on these issues.

The ESPN article noted that Anheuser-Busch spends $200 million a year with the NFL, and that even more fascinatingly, that 1 in 5 beers sold in this country is a Bud Light. Add that to the list of things, along with the tolerance for child abuse, that I don't get about "the south".

[DaddyTorgo]

The ESPN article noted that Anheuser-Busch spends $200 million a year with the NFL, and that even more fascinatingly, that 1 in 5 beers sold in this country is a Bud Light. Add that to the list of things, along with the tolerance for child abuse, that I don't get about "the south".

LOL

I have a coworker who said he drinks Bud Light. I kinda thought he was kidding and so I made a joke about it...but no...he's serious.

I guess it infects even like...fine upstanding places in the North.

[DaddyTorgo]

Anheuser-Busch disappointed, concerned, dissatisfied with NFL | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/16/anheuser-busch-disappointed-concerned-dissatisfied-with-nfl/)

I think this is where you'll begin to see real movement on these issues.

Also saw that the Nike stores in the Twin Cities have pulled all their Peterson merchandise. And he lost Wheaties. And some pharma company.

[Abe Sargent]

If I was an owner, the policy for domestic violence against a woman or child would be simple: you are cut. Maybe my team wouldn't win much, but at least I could sleep at night knowing I took a stand against the assholes of the world.

Cut for what though? Accusation? Guilty in a court of law? When would you make that determination?

[NobodyHere]

If I was an owner, the policy for domestic violence against a woman or child would be simple: you are cut. Maybe my team wouldn't win much, but at least I could sleep at night knowing I took a stand against the assholes of the world.

I'd rather win the Superbowl with unscrupulous players than go 0-16 with angels. I watch football to see great football players, not to set my moral compass.

[ISiddiqui]

The ESPN article noted that Anheuser-Busch spends $200 million a year with the NFL, and that even more fascinatingly, that 1 in 5 beers sold in this country is a Bud Light. Add that to the list of things, along with the tolerance for child abuse, that I don't get about "the south".

Why exactly are you blaming "the south" for Bud Light?

(edit: I mean have you seen the obesity numbers for the South? What makes you think they'd drink any light beer?)

[BillJasper]

Cut for what though? Accusation? Guilty in a court of law? When would you make that determination?

While it is a nebulous area, these teams are probably able to gather enough information to make an informed decision anytime they choose to. Part of it is background, part of it is how well you think you know the person and part of it is how likely you believe in the events that led you to have to make a decision and what immediate evidence you have.

Seems like in Rice, Peterson and Hardy's case, these guys should all be getting long vacations as soon as possible. Ray McDonald, I don't know?

[molson]

Why exactly are you blaming "the south" for Bud Light?

(edit: I mean have you seen the obesity numbers for the South? What makes you think they'd drink any light beer?)

Fair point.

And my perception (obviously I was just going for a silly zinger in the first place) may have been off. Favorite beer by state:

Map: America's favorite beers by state. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2013/10/16/map_america_s_favorite_beers_by_state.html)

I didn't realize so many people were drinking Blue Moon. I live in a pretty snobby beer city where bud light gets just a tiny fraction of the supermarket beer coolers. It's just hard to compare that visual with the reality that bud light makes up 20% of the beer sold in the country.

[Sun Tzu]

I don't think Ray McDonald is going to miss a down. He hasn't been charged, and he claims that the whole thing is complete nonsense. It's a non-story that the NFL blew up when the Ray Rice thing was the hottest thing on TV. Now AP, Rice, Hardy (and others who have been proven guilty) are the hottest thing.

I'd love to see a public poll here asking if it's acceptable to beat your children to the point of leaving marks for the sake of "discipline."

[BillJasper]

I'd love to see a public poll here asking if it's acceptable to beat your children to the point of leaving marks for the sake of "discipline."

You'd get more honest answers with a private poll.

[Dutch]

You'd get more honest answers with a private poll.

If he's looking for honesty, yes.

[BishopMVP]

If I was an owner, the policy for domestic violence against a woman or child would be simple: you are cut. Maybe my team wouldn't win much, but at least I could sleep at night knowing I took a stand against the assholes of the world.I kinda go back to an earlier point here about how much people really believe in recidivism and second chances. Unless you're Jon and ok with giving everyone the death penalty for misdemeanors, at some point you need to decide what the appropriate punishment is for something and then allow them to rejoin society.

We already know that domestic abuse is severely underreported in this country, and now imagine you're the wife or baby mama in one of the abusive relationships - if you go to the cops, you're now cutting the guy financially supporting you/your child off from potentially millions of dollars in future earnings? It's not a simple answer, and one of those things where a well-intentioned rule could backfire.

[Dutch]

I didn't realize so many people were drinking Blue Moon. It's just hard to compare that visual with the reality that bud light makes up 20% of the beer sold in the country.

I'm not so sure Blue Moon is a top selling beer. It may be a favorite, I suppose, but not a top seller.

THE TOP 10 (SELLING) BEERS IN AMERICA 2012
1.Bud Light: 19.2% market share
2.Budweiser: 12%
3.Miller Light: 8.6%
4.Coors Light: 7.8%
5.Natural Light: 4.2%
6.Corona: 4%
7.Busch: 2.8%
8.Busch Light: 2.8%
9.Heineken: 2.4%
10.Miller High Life: 2.3%

I'm always disappointed with people who say they like beer and then name off one of these winners as their favorite. :)

The reality is (and we both KNOW this...) that when you're not at the bar, you're on the couch swilling your crap beer and gorging yourself on Totino's Pizza Rolls, twice-fried Honey Teriyaki wings, and eating vanilla cake frosting...from the can...with your fingers. So those are the top selling beers in America. They make up about 95% of ALL beer sold.
THE TOP 10 (SELLING) BEERS IN AMERICA 2012 - SaveOnBrew (http://www.saveonbrew.com/blog-article/the-top-10-selling-beers-in-america-2012)

So basically, that map you referenced surely just shows favorites, not what people will admit they drink. Gotta give them Southerners credit for always being honest when doing public polls! :)

WARNING: Pollster re-enactment
Phone Pollster: Hello, I would like to know your favorite beer and your current state.

Northern Pollster Looking at his fridge full of Bud Light: Erm, *ahem*, well, I prefer Blue Moon, it's smooth, crisp, and full bodied. I'm from the wonderful state of Maryland! Woo-hoo!

Southern Pollster Looking at his fridge full of Bud Light: Bud Light! Bud Light RULES! ...and what? Oh yeah, I'm in a drunken state! Hee-haw!!!

Personally, my favorite American beers that I drink somewhat regularly are Third Shift and Sam Adam's Boston Lager. But, I'll admit I have about 6 or 8 cans of Miller Lite in my beer fridge and only 3 bottles of Third Shift and no Sam Adams. I'm not proud of it, but that's the truth. When I'm outside grilling or working in the garage or washing the car and I want a beer...I'm not drinking a Sam Adams, I'm drinking a Miller Lite. If people are bringing beer to a party, it's always safe to bring Miller Lite or Bud Light....never be the dude that shows up with Krombacher Dark Dunkelveisen Kugelbacher. You will be known for the rest of the night as "the douche that brought that douche beer". So it starts to make sense why those piss-water beers dominate the American scene.

I will say that the bar scene and the dinner scene are starting to make the right choices. More and more people are going for a Sam Adams (or perhaps even a Blue Moon) than a Budweiser...and that's a good thing, America!


Also, FWIW...our Northern Brothers and Sisters...

Top Selling Beers in Canada
1. Budweiser
2. Coors Light
3. Molson Canadian (Molson Coors Co.)

And our Southern Brothers and Sisters...

Top Selling Beers in Mexico
1. Corona
2. Tecate
3. Dos Equis

Look at Mexico -- keepin' it real!

(EDIT: Weirdest and probably most irrelevant post I've ever made in the NFL Weekly threads...)

[JonInMiddleGA]

But, I'll admit I have about 6 or 8 cans of Miller Lite in my beer fridge and only 3 bottles of Third Shift and no Sam Adams. I'm not proud of it, but that's the truth. When I'm outside grilling or working in the garage or washing the car and I want a beer...I'm not drinking a Sam Adams, I'm drinking a Miller Lite. If people are bringing beer to a party, it's always safe to bring Miller Lite or Bud Light....never be the dude that shows up with Krombacher Dark Dunkelveisen Kugelbacher. You will be known for the rest of the night as "the douche that brought that douche beer". So it starts to make sense why those piss-water beers dominate the American scene.

Ah yes, what I refer to as "company beer" ... as in beer for company in a pinch. Also, random social gathering beer.

I wonder how much of Bud Light / Miller Lite sales that accounts for, I suspect it's no small amount.

[Lathum]

I'm not so sure Blue Moon is a top selling beer. It may be a favorite, I suppose, but not a top seller.

THE TOP 10 (SELLING) BEERS IN AMERICA 2012
1.Bud Light: 19.2% market share
2.Budweiser: 12%
3.Miller Light: 8.6%
4.Coors Light: 7.8%
5.Natural Light: 4.2%
6.Corona: 4%
7.Busch: 2.8%
8.Busch Light: 2.8%
9.Heineken: 2.4%
10.Miller High Life: 2.3%

I'm always disappointed with people who say they like beer and then name off one of these winners as their favorite. :)


..)

I like beer. A lot. I pretty much exclusively drink Miller Lite

[cartman]

Blue Moon has a ridiculous streak going with their sales. Just announced a 75th consecutive quarter of growth.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I like beer. A lot. I pretty much exclusively drink Miller Lite

I'm suddenly sad for you. A Giants fan AND you submit yourself to terrible beer regularly?

:)

[Lathum]

I'm suddenly sad for you. A Giants fan AND you submit yourself to terrible beer regularly?

:)

2 negatives equal a positive.

[Dutch]

I like beer. A lot. I pretty much exclusively drink Miller Lite

It could be worse, you could be an exclusive Natural Light fan. :)

[lungs]

Gimme a Schlitz!

[Vince, Pt. II]

Here's a great article (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/greg-cosell-s-week-2-analysis--the-good-and-bad-of-colin-kaepernick-181307331.html) from Greg Cosell analyzing a few of Colin Kaepernick's plays from Sunday night. He's interviewed on KNBR (local sports radio) on a regular basis and he's apparently writing for Yahoo now. I could listen to him talk about football for hours.

[Dutch]

Blue Moon has a ridiculous streak going with their sales. Just announced a 75th consecutive quarter of growth.

Damn, that's pretty impressive.

[ColtCrazy]

Ok, I'm still hoarse from last night. I know it's already been discuss here, but seeing as I didn't make it home till 2 and was comatose most of the day, here I go.
The back to back calls in the 4th were some of the worst calls I've seen since my dad and I started going to Colts games in 1987. Just atrocious. That said, as pitiful as the Colts D tackled Sproles (the ultimate Colt killer) I'm not sure they deserved to win….but they still should have won. Up 10 with 5 to play and it's a different game. With all the negativity of the week and that horrid game last night, I hated the NFL with a passion for a bit. Better now, but wow that game just sucked.
I hate Sproles probably as much as I hate Brady, but the guy can ball. He and McCoy are just amazing to watch in the open field.

[EagleFan]

Horse collar was weak call but the other call was the right non call. Though we can talk about Maclin having his leg grabbed and tripped up by the DB and no flag... if you want to talk about non calls... :)

You should really be mad at your coach. Game tied 27-27 with over 2 minutes left, Colts with the ball and that is the series of plays he comes up with?

[EagleFan]

Blue Moon has a ridiculous streak going with their sales. Just announced a 75th consecutive quarter of growth.

They sold 75 six packs last quarter... 76 next quarter... ;)

[BillJasper]

I starting to feel slimy watching pro and college sports anymore. Watching Schooled on Netflix. :lol:

[Glengoyne]

Ok so I just saw a quick replay from the Denver and KC game. The Alex Smith forward pass while his elbows were pinned to his side. Seriously?

Was that possibly the biggest botched review ever? Or was the short snippet I saw somehow deceptive?

That was awful. Did Phil Luckett do the review? Are they still letting him do that?

[mckerney]

Vikings deactivate Adrian Peterson indefinitely - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000396097/article/vikings-deactivate-adrian-peterson-indefinitely)

Finally the right decision, but what a shit show to get there the last two days.

[Julio Riddols]

Vikings deactivate Adrian Peterson indefinitely - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000396097/article/vikings-deactivate-adrian-peterson-indefinitely)

Finally the right decision, but what a shit show to get there the last two days.

I think they were trying to deal with roster rules and ensure that he could be exempt from counting against the 53 before they made the move. I'm not at all sure about that but in trying to make sense of how they went about this, that is what I came up with.

[Logan]

I think they were trying to deal with roster rules and ensure that he could be exempt from counting against the 53 before they made the move. I'm not at all sure about that but in trying to make sense of how they went about this, that is what I came up with.

If you're trying to deal with roster rules, you don't stand up there and say what really might be the dumbest quote of all time, "We also feel strongly as an organization that this is disciplining a child".

[mrtourette]

The situation hads turned into a debate about disciplining a child, which is (potentially deliberately) clouding what he actually did. People are defending him as if they are defending their right to physically discipline their child, when what they should actually be doing is defending what he did.

I would ask Rick Spielman, other members of the Vikings organisation and anyone defending him to look at those pictures and confirm that what he did to that child was an acceptable form of discipline. Not whether physically disciplining a child is acceptable, but whether what he did is acceptable.

Is it ever acceptable to strip a four year old child, remove the leaves from a branch/switch, put them into the child's mouth, and then repeatedly hit the child to the point of breaking the skin on various places (legs, bottom, scrotum) as well as on the hands where the child was trying to defend himself?

[rowech]

Ok so I just saw a quick replay from the Denver and KC game. The Alex Smith forward pass while his elbows were pinned to his side. Seriously?

Was that possibly the biggest botched review ever? Or was the short snippet I saw somehow deceptive?

That was awful. Did Phil Luckett do the review? Are they still letting him do that?

If I know what play you're talking about, it was definitely a forward pass.

[Qwikshot]

Glad they benched AP.

Sorry for being a threadjack.

The reality is that he shouldn't be playing football for a while. I'm not saying ban him, I am saying that keeping him off the field for a /significant/ time sets a precedent that no matter how talented you are, no matter how vital you think you are to a team, that if you do violence off the field to /anyone/ that is not justified, that you should not be playing the game.

I know that it's absurd to think that athletes playing such a violent sport may not be able to turn off.

I know that it's more pressure to athletes who have basically been raised and trained to be professional athletes to provide for their impoverished families and/or friends.

I know that football unlike most sports has a very short shelf life for its players and its crucial to play the best to get the best money for as long as you are useful before you are used up and spit out.

But it goes back to my initial post about this:

1) You are a pro athlete that could do damage to most people, let alone a 4 year old.
2) You had a child (albeit briefly aware of his presence) murdered by violence.
3) You are not a poor person trying to protect your children from violence on the street.

To do such actions, it's insane.

Side note: Yahoo posted an article about a mountain climbing family taking pictures of their baby (looks to be just crawling or rolling) near the edge of a 2000 feet drop cliff. I would be remiss if I would say that this parents need to be yelled at to for making a very poor decision.

[Lathum]

Parents put baby at risk atop Pulpit Rock - GrindTV.com (http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/excursions/post/parents-put-baby-risk-atop-pulpit-rock/)

umm, yeah...I have been closer to my kids than any of those parents are and they have fallen of the couch.

[Logan]

The situation hads turned into a debate about disciplining a child, which is (potentially deliberately) clouding what he actually did. People are defending him as if they are defending their right to physically discipline their child, when what they should actually be doing is defending what he did.

I would ask Rick Spielman, other members of the Vikings organisation and anyone defending him to look at those pictures and confirm that what he did to that child was an acceptable form of discipline. Not whether physically disciplining a child is acceptable, but whether what he did is acceptable.

Is it ever acceptable to strip a four year old child, remove the leaves from a branch/switch, put them into the child's mouth, and then repeatedly hit the child to the point of breaking the skin on various places (legs, bottom, scrotum) as well as on the hands where the child was trying to defend himself?

He did answer all that. He knew the story, read the indictment, had access to the pictures..."we saw everything in the file" is I believe the phrase he used. And his answer was that, as an organization, they believed this was disciplining a child.

[Blackadar]

Gimme a Schlitz!

Iron City!

Just kidding. Yuengling or Sam Adams is my "normal, stock in the fridge" beer. Before I moved I used to get Highland Razor Wit (Asheville, NC) for my "show off" beer.

[BillJasper]

Parents put baby at risk atop Pulpit Rock - GrindTV.com (http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/excursions/post/parents-put-baby-risk-atop-pulpit-rock/)

umm, yeah...I have been closer to my kids than any of those parents are and they have fallen of the couch.

Yup!

[Lathum]

Bettor loses $100K payday off of $5 bet with Philadelphia Eagles' last-second win - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/espn/chalk/story/_/id/11540512/bettor-loses-100k-payday-5-bet-philadelphia-eagles-last-second-win)

[BillJasper]

I have to say that I like Adrian Peterson, I understand that where you come from can have a powerful effect on one's actions. I hope that he learns from these mistakes and can become a father that can take care of his kids without the physical abuse.

I think accepting being on the exempt list is a positive first step for him taking accountability for his actions.

[stevew]

Bettor loses $100K payday off of $5 bet with Philadelphia Eagles' last-second win - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/espn/chalk/story/_/id/11540512/bettor-loses-100k-payday-5-bet-philadelphia-eagles-last-second-win)

God I hope he was smart enough to hedge that.

[Logan]

I have to say that I like Adrian Peterson, I understand that where you come from can have a powerful effect on one's actions. I hope that he learns from these mistakes and can become a father that can take care of his kids without the physical abuse.

I think accepting being on the exempt list is a positive first step for him taking accountability for his actions.

Yes, kudos to him for accepting his game checks while sitting on his ass.

[Blackadar]

Yes, kudos to him for accepting his game checks while sitting on his ass.

Yep. Taking many weeks off while continuing to collect $11.75m seems like quite the deal, especially for a position like a RB who only has so many carries in him. I expect that somewhere here he'll donate a game check to some child abuse foundation, but that still leaves him $11m.

[BillJasper]

Yes, kudos to him for accepting his game checks while sitting on his ass.

If any of us had the same leverage, we wouldn't act any differently. At least I know I wouldn't.

[Lathum]

I have to say that I like Adrian Peterson, I understand that where you come from can have a powerful effect on one's actions. I hope that he learns from these mistakes and can become a father that can take care of his kids without the physical abuse.

I think accepting being on the exempt list is a positive first step for him taking accountability for his actions.

If you need to "learn" that beating the shit out of your kid with a switch is unacceptable then you have no business being a parent.

Some parts of being a parent you should just know.

[molson]

I don't have any problem with him getting paid. I'd be more than content if the league can get past the mindset that constitutional rights regarding crime and punishment are the same rights someone should have when it comes to playing football. I don't want teams and leagues parading these guys out there on Sunday and celebrating their on-field success while violent criminal charges loom in the background, and if we can get to that point faster if these guys still get paid, then fine.

[Matthean]

I miss the days of when talking about the NFL was talking about football.

[BillJasper]

If you need to "learn" that beating the shit out of your kid with a switch is unacceptable then you have no business being a parent.



You'd probably eliminate a good portion of the population with that statement. :lol:

I got the shit beat out of me and it was out right abuse. My wife, born in Indiana and raised in Alabama, got it plenty of times with a switch from her aunt that helped raise her and she doesn't seem to resent it at all.

Doesn't make it right but upbringing plays a huge part, for good or ill, in the decisions you make as a parent. I could have easily grown into an abusive parent as I have quite a temper. I made a conscious decision that that wasn't the way that I wanted to raise our kids. It doesn't make it right but I can easily see how someone can fall into that trap. Especially if your family and support system were raised the same way that you were.

Adrian Peterson seems like someone that may be able to break that behavior with the right support.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I miss the days of when talking about the NFL was talking about football.

+1,000

[Lathum]

You'd probably eliminate a good portion of the population with that statement. :lol:
.

IMO a large part of the population has no business being parents. People who brutally abuse their children and call it discipline fall under that umbrella.

[Lathum]

I miss the days of when talking about the NFL was talking about football.

What do you want to talk about?

No reason why both can't be discussed.

I think Stafford has a huge week this week and they get Ebron more involved.

[molson]

You'd probably eliminate a good portion of the population with that statement. :lol:

I got the shit beat out of me and it was out right abuse. My wife, born in Indiana and raised in Alabama, got it plenty of times with a switch from her aunt that helped raise her and she doesn't seem to resent it at all.

Doesn't make it right but upbringing plays a huge part, for good or ill, in the decisions you make as a parent. I could have easily grown into an abusive parent as I have quite a temper. I made a conscious decision that that wasn't the way that I wanted to raise our kids. It doesn't make it right but I can easily see how someone can fall into that trap. Especially if your family and support system were raised the same way that you were.

Adrian Peterson seems like someone that may be able to break that behavior with the right support.

There's SO many things that happened in our parents' and grandparents' generations that we shouldn't repeat. Let's just start with racial and sexual preference tolerances. Nobody's willing to be so forgiving when those are the attitudes someone grew up with and retained.

(I'm not at all saying you're using that as an excuse to defend Peterson, so this isn't an attack on you here).

[MacroGuru]

I am at a different mindset than most it seems. Do I agree with what Ray Rice and AP have done...absolutely not. To me, the fact of what their job entails puts them up on a higher pedestal, makes everything high profile.

Can you imagine being called out daily by the press for some of the stupid shit you have done? Can you imagine losing your job over shit that happened in your personal life that has no bearing on how you perform your job (I know contracts, clauses and employee handbooks, etc..) . Society and the rapid response and immediate access to it makes everyone Guilty before innocent and roasts them. To me, what we have no is tantamount to the modern day witch hunt...

Do I feel that Ray and AP should lose their livelihood over their actions, absolutely not. They should be punished within the confines of the law and allow to move on with their lives, just like we do, as ordinary citizens.

[BillJasper]

There's SO many things that happened in our parents' and grandparents' generations that we shouldn't repeat. Let's just start with racial and sexual preference tolerances. Nobody's willing to be so forgiving when those are the attitudes someone grew up with and retained.



I agree 100% that we shouldn't repeat mistakes. The problem becomes that in many communities and families these aren't seen as mistakes. These things are seen as being the way things simply are.

So I think it is a non-starter to say everyone should "simply know better".

I hate to be seen as someone defending a child abuser, but these things are simply more complicated than many people want to admit. Adrian Peterson should be suspended and maybe should do some time behind bars but he should also be taught where he went wrong and hopefully he can see that what he grew up knowing as "right" simply isn't.

[molson]

Can you imagine losing your job over shit that happened in your personal life that has no bearing on how you perform your job (I know contracts, clauses and employee handbooks, etc..) .

I'm still kind of curious how prevalent this is. I've never had a job where I wouldn't be fired immediately if I was charged with a violent crime. My employer wouldn't wait around to see things play out or give me due process. Of course, this is almost all some manner of public employment, or entities that work with public agencies.

[Lathum]

Can you imagine losing your job over shit that happened in your personal life that has no bearing on how you perform your job.

So if you were involved in a domestic violence situation that was on the news, or a DUI, manslaughter, child endangerment case, etc...you would be able to go to work the next day like nothing happened?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am at a different mindset than most it seems. Do I agree with what Ray Rice and AP have done...absolutely not. To me, the fact of what their job entails puts them up on a higher pedestal, makes everything high profile.

Can you imagine being called out daily by the press for some of the stupid shit you have done? Can you imagine losing your job over shit that happened in your personal life that has no bearing on how you perform your job (I know contracts, clauses and employee handbooks, etc..) . Society and the rapid response and immediate access to it makes everyone Guilty before innocent and roasts them. To me, what we have no is tantamount to the modern day witch hunt...

Do I feel that Ray and AP should lose their livelihood over their actions, absolutely not. They should be punished within the confines of the law and allow to move on with their lives, just like we do, as ordinary citizens.

Being a public figure is a double-edged sword. People talk about how you can't compare "real life" to "sports life", because they are two different worlds. These athletes get all sorts of benefits and privileges normal people would never even dream of. The flip-side to that, however, is that they are public figures and image is very, very important.

They are representatives of the NFL, which is a brand and that brand's image is paramount to its financial success. It's not that different than the Donald Sterling situation. He didn't even commit any crimes. He simply had a private conversation with his girlfriend recorded and broadcast to the world. That hit to the NBA's image was enough to force him to sell the team.

Same thing with Peterson and Rice pretty much. The NFL and the respective teams were taking too much of a PR hit to keep them around.

However, I don't think we even need to make that sports vs. real life distinction here. This kind of thing does happen to normal, everyday people.

For example, what's going on with Rice and Peterson is no different than what happened to the CEO of Centerplate who was caught on video kicking and choking that dog in the elevator. That was a purely private moment, didn't even involve another human being, but the company was taking so much heat for what happened they HAD TO FIRE HIM.

So, in fact, I think your premise is a bit wrong. People, regular people, non-athletes, do lose their jobs for things that happen in their personal lives. If I were caught on camera beating my dog and it some how got out on TV or the internet, I am pretty damn sure I'd get fired. Or let's say I attended some racist party or dressed up in some horribly offensive costume and that some how got put on the internet or Facebook and caused a bit of a stir and got back to my employer. It's very likely I'd get fired for that too.

As an attorney, I could get disbarred for "shit that happened in my personal life that has no bearing on how I perform my job" if it rose to a criminal level and I would definitely get fired for that.

[MacroGuru]

So if you were involved in a domestic violence situation that was on the news, or a DUI, manslaughter, child endangerment case, etc...you would be able to go to work the next day like nothing happened?

everything but the manslaughter....people do it, and they have to put up with the stigma from then on, but they don't lose their job unless they are in a public service role for govt, etc....

[MacroGuru]

For example, what's going on with Rice and Peterson is no different than what happened to the CEO of Centerplate who was caught on video kicking and choking that dog in the elevator. That was a purely private moment, didn't even involve another human being, but the company was taking so much heat for what happened they HAD TO FIRE HIM.

So, in fact, I think your premise is a bit wrong. People, regular people, non-athletes, do lose their jobs for things that happen in their personal lives. If I were caught on camera beating my dog and it some how got out on TV or the internet, I am pretty damn sure I'd get fired. Or let's say I attended some racist party or dressed up in some horribly offensive costume and that some how got put on the internet or Facebook and caused a bit of a stir and got back to my employer. It's very likely I'd get fired for that too.

But here is where I am saying that the issue is now the social media and immediate access to stuff. Shit like the CEO stuff went on long before it was shown, and yes they got away with it, the reason no one can in this day an age is because of social media and the witch hunts that follow....I understand sports vs real life and I don't equate CEOs as ordinary people, they are the public face of a company, they are the sports stars of the business world.

I just guess I see things differently than most. I am against what they did, just don't think they should be roasted like they are.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If you need to "learn" that beating the shit out of your kid with a switch is unacceptable then you have no business being a parent. Some parts of being a parent you should just know.


There are lots -- and I mean LOTS -- of parents who would argue that failure to exercise that option, when necessary or effective, has been exponentially far more damaging to society than all of the abuse in the history of the world.

[flounder]

The south has a much higher rate of corporal punishment. It also has a much higher rate of violent crime (http://www.businessinsider.com/south-has-more-violent-crime-fbi-statistics-show-2013-9). That doesn't prove causation, but the correlation goes against the argument that failing to hit your child is damaging society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The south has a much higher rate of corporal punishment. It also has a much higher rate of violent crime (http://www.businessinsider.com/south-has-more-violent-crime-fbi-statistics-show-2013-9). That doesn't prove causation, but the correlation goes against the argument that failing to hit your child is damaging society.

Only region (perhaps parts of the midwest) remotely fit to live afaic.

YMMV, but increasingly the last bastion of values worth the name.

[BillJasper]

Only region (perhaps parts of the midwest) remotely fit to live afaic.



This is such utter bullshit.

[DaddyTorgo]

Only region (perhaps parts of the midwest) remotely fit to live afaic.

YMMV, but increasingly the last bastion of values worth the name.

LMAO

Values such as beating your kid?

Not surprising coming from you.

[thesloppy]

The south has a much higher rate of corporal punishment. It also has a much higher rate of violent crime (http://www.businessinsider.com/south-has-more-violent-crime-fbi-statistics-show-2013-9). That doesn't prove causation, but the correlation goes against the argument that failing to hit your child is damaging society.

Likewise violent crime and murder rates in America are down to nearly half of where they were 20-30 years ago. Today's kids may be tagged as undisciplined, disrespectful pussies, but they're also remarkably safer and less violent than the generations that came before them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This is such utter bullshit.

Not to those who feel that way.

The uber left northwest / left coast? The nearly as radicalized northeast?
There's a lot of people who'd sooner die -- literally -- than live in those places. (same can be said in reverse, not like it's a one way street here)

Like prefers like, that's just a simple rule of human behavior. I have about as much in common with a (stereo)typical 23 y/o from Portland as I have with, I dunno, a toaster.

[Butter]

The south has a much higher rate of corporal punishment. It also has a much higher rate of violent crime (http://www.businessinsider.com/south-has-more-violent-crime-fbi-statistics-show-2013-9). That doesn't prove causation, but the correlation goes against the argument that failing to hit your child is damaging society.

It also has a much higher rate of poverty, but I am not so sure that you would argue that these were related. I tend to think the poverty and state of the educational system in much of the South has much more to do with the violent crime rate than corporal punishment.

Though you could argue that the educational system and the corporal punishment rate are related, I would think.

[Blackadar]

LMAO

Values such as beating your kid?

Not surprising coming from you.

Ignorance and violence go together like peas and carrots!

[DaddyTorgo]

Not to those who feel that way.

The uber left northwest / left coast? The nearly as radicalized northeast?
There's a lot of people who'd sooner die -- literally -- than live in those places. (same can be said in reverse, not like it's a one way street here)

Like prefers like, that's just a simple rule of human behavior. I have about as much in common with a (stereo)typical 23 y/o from Portland as I have with, I dunno, a toaster.

Yep - people who confront you with different opinions and make different choices are SCARY hmm Jon?

[thesloppy]

Like prefers like, that's just a simple rule of human behavior. I have about as much in common with a (stereo)typical 23 y/o from Portland as I have with, I dunno, a toaster.

On the other hand, head 20 minutes out of Portland in any direction, and you'd feel right at home. Oregon's weird like that. Outside of Portland (and Eugene?), the rest of the state is largely conservative rural farmers. I've met numerous rural Oregonians who have never left the state but somehow have a weird bastardized southern drawl.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yep - people who confront you with different opinions and make different choices are SCARY hmm Jon?

Only in terms of how often / to what extent they can be so dead wrong.
Otherwise it's just a mix of pity & contempt, tinged with sadness.

[Lathum]

There are lots -- and I mean LOTS -- of parents who would argue that failure to exercise that option, when necessary or effective, has been exponentially far more damaging to society than all of the abuse in the history of the world.

hw exactly is it more damaging?

[Lathum]

I tend to think the poverty and state of the educational system in much of the South has much more to do with the violent crime rate than corporal punishment.
.

I think this is an odd statement.

It seems to me violence is a learned behavior. Children, as far as I know, aren't born as violent beings, they learn that from someone. If you are beaten for your wrongdoings from a young age you learn to respond with violence when someone does you wrong.

If violence is an everyday part of life, violent acts don't seem out of place in your world.

I grew up in New Jersey. I was spanked but thats about it. No one ever taught me in school it isn't OK to assault others, it was just something I knew was wrong, likely learned from observing adults around me.