Yet another school shooting.

[Drake]

Texas House gives initial approval to "constitutional carry" | The Texas Tribune (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/04/15/texas-constitutional-carry/)

Don't worry, in Texas we're making it so that you don't need to actually get a license to carry a gun. You can't vote or anything crazy like that. But you can get a gun without any checks or training or even a license.

SI

To be fair, in my state (Indiana) you don't need a license to buy the gun and keep it in your house/on your property. Just to carry it in public. I think that's true in most states.

[Ksyrup]

It's getting hard to keep up with all the shootings these days, school-related or not. Apparently vacationing and parties aren't the only thing people missed out on last year...

[NobodyHere]

Can't say I was expecting this:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/fedex-shooter-brandon-hole-was-obsessed-with-my-little-pony-report

[sterlingice]

Can't say I was expecting this:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/fedex-shooter-brandon-hole-was-obsessed-with-my-little-pony-report

Gotta make every shooter look at nutty as possible. That way it's definitely not true that there are a lot of people in this country that shouldn't own guns - there's just a few "nutters" out there

SI

[Qwikshot]

So that Wawa shooting today is very close to home. I frequented that place often during my prior job, and my daughter goes to it after her job.

It was very lucky they locked down quickly, and there is a state police barracks a stone's throw to that wawa...plus the daycare where the shooter killed himself was closed.

That Wawa is generally packed as it is damn near to all hubs of industry in that area.

[QuikSand]

Latest soon-to-be-forgotten event is near Green Bay WI.

[NobodyHere]

"Crowd control is an issue for us because people are trying to see what’s happening," she said.

This struck me as hilarious.

[QuikSand]

Wow, three weeks between posts. Forum is slacking, like most of America we hardly even bristle or take notice when there are merely a handful of bodies, and shattered families, as a result of the latest spree.

Anyhow...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: At least eight people are confirmed dead after the mass shooting at a San Jose rail yard, in addition to the suspected shooter, police say <a href="https://t.co/BuWF2htFwf">https://t.co/BuWF2htFwf</a> <a href="https://t.co/ksGRW3gXSx">pic.twitter.com/ksGRW3gXSx</a></p>&mdash; CBS News (@CBSNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1397611633543950347?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 26, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Cool cool

[BYU 14]

I was thinking the same thing, even we are getting number to it as there were no fewer than 7 of these between posts by my count. :(

[AlexB]

230 mass shootings (defined as where four or more people are killed) so far this year apparently :(

[tarcone]

Extreme version of population control, I guess

[Vince, Pt. II]

So sad and disappointing. A family friend's niece works for the VTA, in that building, but was thankfully not involved.

It's a bummer that no one in the world has figured out how to avoid instances like this, and that the US doesn't have any other nation they could model themselves after to reduce the chances of this happening again and again and again.

[Ksyrup]

This is the price of true freedom. No one else is as free as us! Free to kill, free to die, free free freeeeeeeeee!

As I watch GMA, it scrolls past that "the shooter's ex-wife says that he told her he wanted to kill people at work." Uh, how about friggin' telling someone about that BEFORE NOW? You're divorced! It's not like you felt trapped by your marriage into silence. I mean, hell, why wouldn't you at least tell your divorce attorney something like that?

The number of true crime stories I watch/read where someone says things like this after the fact is appalling. Whether it's a spouse or child, etc., these people just excuse shit like this or ignore it or tell themselves it doesn't mean anything. "Yeah, he used to torture cats when he was 13 but I figured it was just a phase he'd grow out of."

[miami_fan]

Maybe it is just me but the ratio of people I know who have said that they wanted to kill people at work compared to the people I know who have actually tried to kill people at work is about a million to two. I don't know if we as a society will ever take these types of threats seriously until it it too late. It is just too common of a statement to do otherwise IMO. Yes, every so often, someone will take it very seriously and prevent one massacre. But then someone else will do take the same precaution, be wrong and then be the subject of national ridicule for taking things too seriously.

[NobodyHere]

Maybe it is just me but the ratio of people I know who have said that they wanted to kill people at work compared to the people I know who have actually tried to kill people at work is about a million to two.

So this means you know at least one person who tried to kill people at work? And 500,000 more who wanted to kill people?

Where the hell do you work at!?!?!

[Ksyrup]

I don't know anyone who has said something like that and I knew they were serious, as opposed to it being an obviously hyperbolic statement.

And yes, if someone seriously threatened to kill someone else in a fit of rage, I'd want that person reported and it should be considered serious, not the "subject of national ridicule." Context matters. I think the ratio of serious-to-Three's Company-style misunderstanding would lean heavily in the direction of "better safe than sorry."

[CrimsonFox]

come and knock on our door....

otherwise we'll shoot you...

[BYU 14]

I have never had someone tell me they wanted to kill someone

[NobodyHere]

I knew a guy who got thrown in jail because he said something to the effect of "If anyone takes my kids I'll kill them(not the kids, the ones taking them)". I think he was going through a divorce or something at the time.

[Ben E Lou]

I have never had someone tell me they wanted to kill someone:withstupid:

[miami_fan]

So this means you know at least one person who tried to kill people at work? And 500,000 more who wanted to kill people?

Where the hell do you work at!?!?!

I could be the only person who been around people who said they wanted to at least beat a co-worker to death or blow an entire place of employment up but I don't that is the case. And no, I did not take any of those people seriously.

I, along with my commander, first sergeant, chief enlisted manager and another NCO, were on a hit list of a Airman who got involved with a hate group. He was arrested in his vehicle with his weapon and ammo in the front seat on his way to "fulfill his mission". I think that counts;)

The second one would probably be considered more of a love triangle situation than an work situation but it involved co workers and neighbors. A guy either believed or confirmed that his co-worker/upstairs neighbor was messing around with his wife. After a group workout, they went to the locker room shower and get ready for work. Suddenly the husband threw some type of fluid on the other guy and set him ablaze. I don't remember the exact wording but threats were expressed.

I may have exaggerated about the million part but the two is accurate.

[thesloppy]

Probably depends a lot on the environment. I've never heard that kind of talk/threat while working in an office environment, but fights & shouting matches were a weekly sometimes nightly thing at some of the restaurants I worked at in my 20s. I once saw a couple of cooks having a knife fight in the middle of dinner rush.

[sovereignstar v2]

I once saw a couple of cooks having a knife fight in the middle of dinner rush.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vjaHrp6JtyY" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[cuervo72]

Never seen it firsthand, but did watch John Cheney do it on TV once.

[miami_fan]

Never seen it firsthand, but did watch John Cheney do it on TV once.

ZING!:lol:

[BYU 14]

So just a couple of days after this latest shooting, in McCarty's state no less, Beavis is basically insinuating that people should use gun violence against tech companies.

GOP leadership is now that parent that never held their kids accountable for anything they did and now wonders why they are out of control.

Matt Gaetz Calls on Americans to Take up Arms Against Big Tech (https://www.businessinsider.com/matt-gaetz-says-american-obligation-take-up-arms-big-tech-2021-5)

[RainMaker]

I still can't believe how mad these people are about being banned from a forum. Maybe if you didn't grow up online you become that way.

[GrantDawg]

So just a couple of days after this latest shooting, in McCarty's state no less, Beavis is basically insinuating that people should use gun violence against tech companies.

GOP leadership is now that parent that never held their kids accountable for anything they did and now wonders why they are out of control.

Matt Gaetz Calls on Americans to Take up Arms Against Big Tech (https://www.businessinsider.com/matt-gaetz-says-american-obligation-take-up-arms-big-tech-2021-5)
He says the Second Amendment is for taking up arms against the government, and also says that they should use the Second Amendment on Silicon Valley.

a) Does he think Silicon Valley is a part of the government?
b) Are we completely sure he wan't talking about taking up arms on the TV show?

[BYU 14]

He says the Second Amendment is for taking up arms against the government, and also says that they should use the Second Amendment on Silicon Valley.

a) Does he think Silicon Valley is a part of the government?
b) Are we completely sure he wan't talking about taking up arms on the TV show?

The only thing I am sure about with Gaetz is he as as slimy as they come and frankly he knows these statements will divert attention from the accusations that he is a kid toucher.

[RainMaker]

Texas man arrested after officials intercept plans for mass shooting at Walmart (https://local12.com/amp/news/nation-world/texas-man-arrested-after-officials-intercept-plans-for-mass-shooting-at-walmart-coleman-thomas-blevins?__twitter_impression=true)

[sterlingice]

I could be the only person who been around people who said they wanted to at least beat a co-worker to death or blow an entire place of employment up but I don't that is the case. And no, I did not take any of those people seriously.

I'm with this. I've heard people say something to the effect of "Man, I want to kill that guy" but it's not serious, near as I can tell - more offhanded hyperbole. I'm kindof surprised more people haven't heard something like this and thing it's odd.

However, again, it's always been pretty clearly hyperbole to me. I haven't been in a situation where I actually believed someone actually wanted to actually kill someone. That said, I've been in a couple of situations where I could see a couple of guys want to throw down if in the wrong situation, especially if alcohol were involved.

SI

[BYU 14]

One of these hit very close to home as this spree ended in the city I live in yesterday. So far very few facts released, just appears like someone decided to get in their car, drive around and shoot people.

1 dead, 12 injured in series of drive-by shootings in Arizona; suspect in custody (https://www.yahoo.com/news/least-9-injured-series-drive-222400432.html)

[whomario]

A Former NRA President Was Tricked Into Speaking At A Fake High School Graduation (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/amberjamieson/nra-president-graduation-speech?__twitter_impression=true)

In a speech to the James Madison Academy 2021 graduating class, David Keene, a former NRA president and current board member of the gun rights group, called on the teens to fight those looking to implement tighter gun restrictions.

"I’d be willing to bet that many of you will be among those who stand up and prevent those from proceeding," he said, to a Las Vegas stadium of thousands of socially distanced chairs on June 4.

"An overwhelming majority of you will go on to college, while others may decide their dream dictates a different route to success," said Keene. "My advice to you is simple enough: follow your dream and make it a reality."

Except, they can't. The students aren't real. James Madison Academy doesn't exist.

Without realizing it, Keene was actually addressing his comments to thousands of empty chairs set up to represent the estimated 3,044 kids who should have graduated high school this year and instead were killed by gun violence.

Change the Ref, an organization founded by Manuel and Patricia Oliver, whose son Joaquin “Guac” was killed in 2018 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, held a fake high school graduation for what they call "The Lost Class" of students.

They invited Keene and John Lott, an author and gun rights activist, to give remarks to a high school graduating class and filmed what they were told was a rehearsal in a stadium of empty chairs.

[PilotMan]

A Former NRA President Was Tricked Into Speaking At A Fake High School Graduation (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/amberjamieson/nra-president-graduation-speech?__twitter_impression=true)

That is powerful

[tarcone]

We had a shooting in a mall in West St. Louis county Saturday morning. Dude shot another in Champs Sports. My family was at the mall Friday.

[BYU 14]

This looks like a potentially epic tragedy averted. Props to law enforcement and the hotel employees. I don't think there is any doubt what the intentions of these people were.

All-Star Game: 4 arrested at Denver hotel, police feared shooting (https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mlb-4-arrested-on-gun-charges-denver-hotel-police-feared-las-vegas-style-shooting-all-star-game-142034642.html)

[NobodyHere]

This looks like a potentially epic tragedy averted. Props to law enforcement and the hotel employees. I don't think there is any doubt what the intentions of these people were.

All-Star Game: 4 arrested at Denver hotel, police feared shooting (https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mlb-4-arrested-on-gun-charges-denver-hotel-police-feared-las-vegas-style-shooting-all-star-game-142034642.html)

Damn, the police couldn't have let them take out Trevor Bauer first?

[RainMaker]

This looks like a potentially epic tragedy averted. Props to law enforcement and the hotel employees. I don't think there is any doubt what the intentions of these people were.

All-Star Game: 4 arrested at Denver hotel, police feared shooting (https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mlb-4-arrested-on-gun-charges-denver-hotel-police-feared-las-vegas-style-shooting-all-star-game-142034642.html)

I feel like this story is not getting the attention it deserves. This employee might have saved like 100 lives.

[miami_fan]

One of the suspects said the weapons were to be traded or sold. He also said "There's no way I would ever allow anybody that I knew of to shoot actively into a crowd with women and children and families, there's no way, there's no way whatsoever. Never,". That is a enough to give them the benefit of the doubt I guess.

[RainMaker]

So why did they need all the ammo? Hmmmm

[cuervo72]

I'm an arms dealer, but I'm an arms dealer with principles.

[spleen1015]

FBI: Maven Hotel arrest not linked to terrorism or threat to public | FOX31 Denver (https://kdvr.com/news/local/we-are-so-ready-for-things-like-that-emergency-operations-center-launched-for-all-star-week/)

[Edward64]

One of the suspects said the weapons were to be traded or sold. He also said "There's no way I would ever allow anybody that I knew of to shoot actively into a crowd with women and children and families, there's no way, there's no way whatsoever. Never,". That is a enough to give them the benefit of the doubt I guess.

I think the service staff and cops handled it well. Person had a felony conviction, drugs found etc.

Could be an averted mass shooting incident but also even chance it's some dumbasses doing stupid stuff.

Guns, drugs found at Maven Hotel in Denver on All-Star Weekend | FOX31 Denver (https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-police-release-new-details-mug-shots-of-4-people-arrested-with-guns-and-drugs-near-coors-field/)

[Edward64]

My initial impression was that looks like fun and I want one.

Then a couple seconds later, I thought hmmm, not a good idea. I can see where it would put our LEOs at risk and increase the likelihood of kids (with irresponsible parent gun owners) playing with one lying around.

Culper Precision Introduces Block19 Customization For Glock 19's -The Firearm Blog (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/07/08/culper-precision-block19/)
Culper Precision recently introduced their Block19 customization option for the third and fourth generation Glock 19 pistols. The Block19 customization is designed to resemble a gun made of Lego bricks, but of course, be fully functional at the same time.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/block19-660x440.jpg

[Lathum]

you have to be fucking kidding me with that.

I hope Lego sues the shit out of them. That is a killed kid waiting to happen

[BYU 14]

In a country where asinine things are the norm, this takes the cake. WTF was whoever designed that thinking?

[RainMaker]

Seems like a tool to avoid detection and kill law enforcement officials or security who don't think it's a real gun.

[Ksyrup]

In a country where asinine things are the norm, this takes the cake. WTF was whoever designed that thinking?

They were probably still pissed that they lost their job after doing such a great job on the Joe Camel ad campaign.

[Edward64]

Darn, I missed out. But yeah, good call.

Last week, Culper Precision made a big splash in the firearms industry with the introduction of their Block 19 customization of Gen 3 and 4 Glock 19 pistols. That splash also caught the attention of the national news media, as well as the LEGO corporation. LEGO issued a cease and desist letter to Culper Precision regarding the Block 19 customization, the service of which Culper Precision has decided to discontinue. Culper Precision released a statement on their website to respond to the attention and debate brought on by the Block 19 controversy, which you can read in full below.

[AlexB]

So the UK just had its first mass shooting since 2010… in my living memory that’s three - Hungerford, Dunblane, and now Plymouth. Quite the contrast.

[miami_fan]

Early reports put this suspect in the " I hate women" category.

[AlexB]

Yeah, looks that way. Or at least that he hated that women didn’t like him

[Edward64]

You know, you don't read about postal workers going postal anymore.

[sterlingice]

You know, you don't read about postal workers going postal anymore.

They probably still do - it just gets lost in amongst all the other mass shootings

SI

[QuikSand]

13 or more shot in Collierville TN today

Nothing to see here, move along

The Onion will cover this appropriately

[albionmoonlight]

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced that our reaction to Sandy Hook was really the inflection point.

One political party said "We are going to let innocent kids get slaughtered indiscriminately going forward in order to protect the feelings of non-college-educated Whites."

And that political party continued to win elections.

That was the moment. Everything flows from that. Trump. MAGA. White Nationalism. 1/6. All of it.

We get the government we deserve.

[JPhillips]

It's important to remember, though, that the people who made that decision are a minority. If the U.S. operated with a majority rules system, things would look different.

[Ksyrup]

This is a pretty scary video, but good on these kids for staying cool, not overreacting and recognizing the fake (assuming this is what it appears to be).

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A student from inside Oxford High School captured this footage of the possible shooter trying to get into the classroom by impersonating a sheriff<br><br>The students did not open the door and escaped through a window<a href="https://t.co/DCKb6l555w">https://t.co/DCKb6l555w</a> <a href="https://t.co/gQWOuJPAAL">pic.twitter.com/gQWOuJPAAL</a></p>&mdash; philip lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) <a href="https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1465802106867269634?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 30, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[tarcone]

Dont outlaw guns, outlaw bullets.

[RainMaker]

Still don't understand how a 15 year old gets unfettered access to a gun. Parents quickly lawyered up so who knows when we'll find that out.

[Ksyrup]

He used a gun his dad bought last week, from what I read.

[NobodyHere]

It's sad that a 15 year old would feel the need to shoot up a school.

[GrantDawg]

Nvm

[PilotMan]

Dont outlaw guns, outlaw bullets.

As much as I hate the workaround there is something to this. I'd say in addition to.

[Edward64]

Teaser for the full interview on Thu. Won't watch it but interested to read Fri how the bullet got out of the gun he was holding if he didn't pull the trigger.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/01/entertainment/alec-baldwin-interview/index.html
Alec Baldwin told ABC News he never pulled the trigger of the gun that shot director of photography Halyna Hutchins on the set of "Rust."

"The trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger," Baldwin said in an excerpt released Wednesday from the sit-down interview -- his first since the October shooting.

When asked why he pointed the gun at Hutchins and pulled the trigger when that wasn't in the script, Baldwin said, "I would never point a gun at anyone and then pull the trigger, never."

Baldwin also said he has no idea how a live bullet got in the Colt .45 revolver he used in the scene. "Someone put a live bullet in the gun, a bullet that wasn't even supposed to be on the property," he said.

[RainMaker]

That interview feels like someone who has been heavily coached by an attorney. Maybe we have an expert in firearms here who can tell us if a homemade bullet could cause a gun to fire on its own, but I've never heard of that.

Even if he didn't pull the trigger, I was taught that you aren't supposed to aim guns at people (loaded or unloaded).

[Edward64]

Don't know if this can happen. I can easily believe his finger was on the trigger when he let go of the hammer. Competition guns can have triggers that don't take a lot of pressure.

The actor explained to ABC's George Stephanopoulos that the scene being rehearsed in the church at Bonanza Creek Ranch in New Mexico was going to show him cocking the gun, and he and Hutchins were going over how she wanted to position his hand.

"And I cock the gun, I go, "Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that?" and she says... and then I let go of the hammer of the gun, and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off," Baldwin recalled.

He said he was aiming the gun just off to the side of the camera, as Hutchins was instructing him to, in her direction.

"I'm holding the gun where she told me to hold it, which ended up being aimed right below her armpit, was what I was told," Baldwin said.

We'll see what the FBI says

The sheriff’s department is awaiting results from the FBI which would shed light on how the gun could have been fired, “whether that was just pulling back the hammer – which hits the firing pin – just pulling the trigger or both,” Fox News Digital also reported.

[Galaril]

Clever and sad too:
Sly Anti-Gun Violence Ads : Change the Ref (https://www.trendhunter.com/trends/change-the-ref)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Still don't understand how a 15 year old gets unfettered access to a gun. Parents quickly lawyered up so who knows when we'll find that out.

The parents of the murderer have both been charged with 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

[Lathum]

Reading some of the reporting is horrific. The parents were called to the school and told their sun had written a note saying "the thoughts won't stop me, blood everywhere" with a picture of a gun. They were told he needs to be in counseling within 48 hours. They then left without him. What the actual fuck?

[Ksyrup]

Was that before or after they bought him the gun for Christmas? WTH is wrong with people? "We never would have believed he could do something like this. It came out of nowhere. We're shocked!"

[Lathum]

Aaron Rupar on Twitter: "An Oakland County prosecutor says a teacher caught Ethan Crumbley searching ammunition on his cellphone during class, notified administrators, & contacted Crumbley's parents. His mom wrote to his son, "LOL. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught."… https://t.co/hIEJqd6kak" (https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894?s=21)

[RainMaker]

Reading through a lot of stuff it sure does seem like the parents encouraged their kid to do this.

[QuikSand]

The parents of the murderer have both been charged with 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Wow, this has the potential to be a very widely and closely watched prosecution.

[Ksyrup]

And now the parents' whereabouts are unknown.

[cuervo72]

Whatever for? Surely they are due a multi-million dollar Republican/pro-gun backed defense fund.

[Ksyrup]

This is going to be one of those "our society is screwed" type of results if these people are found innocent. The facts here go well beyond most vague "troubled teen" scenarios.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The allegations detailed here are shocking:<br><br>- Father purchased gun<br>- Son bragged about the gun on social media<br>- Mother posted on social media about son &quot;testing out his new Christmas present&quot;<br><br>(1/x) <a href="https://t.co/V3KxoFIgzq">https://t.co/V3KxoFIgzq</a></p>&mdash; Evan McMurry (@evanmcmurry) <a href="https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/1466823443979067404?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 3, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[sterlingice]

If I'm ever in a place where I hear there's a shooting at my son's school and my first thought isn't immediately "OMG, is he ok" but "oh crap, he's the shooter", oh man - what a dark place. How badly have I failed my child (and society)?

SI

[Galaril]

And Faux News angle is it is the schools fault. SMH.

[GrantDawg]

Edit: I hate tapatalk

[Edward64]

Sounds like a communication issue. If the parents had let their attorneys know and the attorney's had let the prosecutor know yesterday, then today's announcement of missing/manhunt for parents seem overboard.

More to come on this story I'm sure.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/michigan-oxford-high-school-shooting-superintendent-message/index.html
Hours after a prosecutor announced involuntary manslaughter charges against the parents of Ethan Crumbley, the 15-year-old accused of killing four fellow students at a Michigan high school, authorities said the parents are missing.

But in another twist, two attorneys who say they are representing the couple released a statement that said the Crumbleys had left town for their safety and are returning for an arraignment.

"On Thursday night we contacted the Oakland County prosecutor to discuss this matter and to advise her that James and Jennifer Crumbley would be turning themselves in to be arraigned," the statement from attorneys Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman said. "Instead of communicating with us, the prosecutor held a press conference to announce charges."

[Drake]

That interview feels like someone who has been heavily coached by an attorney. Maybe we have an expert in firearms here who can tell us if a homemade bullet could cause a gun to fire on its own, but I've never heard of that.

Even if he didn't pull the trigger, I was taught that you aren't supposed to aim guns at people (loaded or unloaded).

I haven't read about this story in depth, but since they were doing a western, I'm assuming the guns were of the 1873 Colt SA Army variety. I have a couple of these -- modern, good quality replicas manufactured in Italy following the original Colt patents.

One of the things you have to know about "cowboy guns" is that the cylinder holds six rounds of .45 Long Colt, but most people only ever load five. There's no effective safety on the original 1873 model. Half-cock is a sort of safety, but the tolerances are such that there's not a huge gap between the hammer-affixed firing pin and the primer. In essence, a good whack on the back of the hammer or dropping the hammer too quickly (which you can't do without your finger on the trigger) can fire the bullet.

So you load it in such a way (insert a cartridge, skip a chamber, load four more) that when you drop the hammer from the half-cock loading position, the hammer is resting on an empty chamber.

This doesn't really match up with the snippet from the interview above in terms of explaining how this could have happened accidentally based on Baldwin's statements. I'm just clarifying that in "cowboy guns" as they were originally designed, it's not only completely possible to have it go off without pulling the trigger, it's a known "feature" with standard workarounds.

(Modern replicas obviate this problem with floating firing pins on the hammer and/or hammer blocks that only disengage with a positive pull on the trigger.)

ETA: I posted before I read Edward's post. From those comments, this sounds exactly like what happened.

[GrantDawg]

Wow Drake. Interesting. My friends Dad when I was a kid had a .22 long rifle ammo pistol that would do the same thing.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[miami_fan]

Wow, this has the potential to be a very widely and closely watched prosecution.

This. I am super fascinated as to how they are going to go about prosecuting this one.

I honestly don't see it. There is nothing wrong with a father giving his son a gun as a present. That happens every day in this country. Re: the online search and the note. They are not the first parents to blow off concerns of a teacher, especially if it is one of "dem" teachers. I don't think it is illegal to search for ammo at school. The school has no authority to force the parents to get the child counseling if they don't want to. Finally, when they heard something was up,, they begged the kid not to do it and contacted 911.

[JPhillips]

My guess is that Baldwin didn't consciously pull the trigger, but he did put enough pressure to cause it to fire. That kind of thing happens all the time with actors. They aren't often perfectly in control of their bodies, especially when they are thinking about other things.

But Baldwin certainly isn't liable as the actor. He may be as the producer, bt as the actor you don't want him checking the gun or opening it. Overall that causes a lot more problems than it would solve. The armourer does the first check, the AD does the backup, and the actor behaves as they have been trained to.

There's no good excuse for a live round on set, though.

[RainMaker]

Sounds like a communication issue. If the parents had let their attorneys know and the attorney's had let the prosecutor know yesterday, then today's announcement of missing/manhunt for parents seem overboard.

More to come on this story I'm sure.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/michigan-oxford-high-school-shooting-superintendent-message/index.html

This seems like a defense attorney trying to protect a client.

The Sheriff put out a statement afterward saying they still do not know where the couple is and are not aware that the couple is returning despite what the defense attorney said. I just find it hard to believe that both the Sheriff and Prosecutor would be saying this stuff if they didn't believe the couple had fled.

The parents should be considered armed and dangerous fugitives. These are not minor charges. They're being given extraordinary leeway here that others wouldn't get.

[RainMaker]

I haven't read about this story in depth, but since they were doing a western, I'm assuming the guns were of the 1873 Colt SA Army variety. I have a couple of these -- modern, good quality replicas manufactured in Italy following the original Colt patents.

One of the things you have to know about "cowboy guns" is that the cylinder holds six rounds of .45 Long Colt, but most people only ever load five. There's no effective safety on the original 1873 model. Half-cock is a sort of safety, but the tolerances are such that there's not a huge gap between the hammer-affixed firing pin and the primer. In essence, a good whack on the back of the hammer or dropping the hammer too quickly (which you can't do without your finger on the trigger) can fire the bullet.

So you load it in such a way (insert a cartridge, skip a chamber, load four more) that when you drop the hammer from the half-cock loading position, the hammer is resting on an empty chamber.

This doesn't really match up with the snippet from the interview above in terms of explaining how this could have happened accidentally based on Baldwin's statements. I'm just clarifying that in "cowboy guns" as they were originally designed, it's not only completely possible to have it go off without pulling the trigger, it's a known "feature" with standard workarounds.

(Modern replicas obviate this problem with floating firing pins on the hammer and/or hammer blocks that only disengage with a positive pull on the trigger.)

ETA: I posted before I read Edward's post. From those comments, this sounds exactly like what happened.

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about it being such an old gun.

I still keep thinking about the fact that the gun had to be pointed in her direction at one time. You know firearm safety more than me, but I was always taught to NEVER point a gun at someone even if it isn't loaded.

[AlexB]

You know what’s even safer? Never hold a gun…

[Drake]

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about it being such an old gun.

I still keep thinking about the fact that the gun had to be pointed in her direction at one time. You know firearm safety more than me, but I was always taught to NEVER point a gun at someone even if it isn't loaded.

You're correct, but in the context of filming a move -- or even rehearsing what you're going to do when the filming starts -- you've got a different set of concerns. I mean, I know they can do things with staging and camera angles to help with it...but at some point, if you're acting out a shooting, you have to point the gun for some shots, I'd think.

I don't hold Baldwin responsible here, even if he was getting clicky with his finger on the trigger. There shouldn't have ever been live rounds on the set. Everything should have been double and triple checked. That's on the armorer (and maybe the AD, as JPhillips says above. He'd know more about those roles than I do...since, if I'm recalling correctly, theater is his professional background.)

My not-a-lawyer impression in this case is that Baldwin will face some financial penalties here (as the producer, not as the actor) because he's ultimately responsible for the negligence on the set, but he won't face criminal charges. It wouldn't surprise me if the armorer gets charged with manslaughter or whatever "accidental death due to negligence" standards exist in that state.

[GrantDawg]

I'm a little surprised the armorer hasn't already been charged.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[NobodyHere]

Alex Baldwin's wife's name is Hilaria.

I find that amusing.

[Edward64]

Sounds like a communication issue. If the parents had let their attorneys know and the attorney's had let the prosecutor know yesterday, then today's announcement of missing/manhunt for parents seem overboard.

More to come on this story I'm sure.


These guys have just made it worse for themselves.

I get freaking out when hearing for a manhunt for them (debatable if authorities should have announced it when they did) but easy way out is just follow their attorneys' directions.

But I do want to know:


If their attorneys did tell authorities on Thu that their clients had gone into hiding for their safety and will appear for arraignment on Fri (prob yes)
If authorities decided to call for a manhunt before they were overdue (prob yes)
And know why authorities did that (e.g. was it just that parents couldn't be contacted, prosecutors grandstanding, or did they have evidence the parents were fleeing, attorney's message didn't get through etc.)


https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/04/us/michigan-oxford-high-school-shooting-saturday/index.html
A tip led police to the parents of Ethan Crumbley, the suspect in the Oxford High School shooting, who were arrested in Detroit on manslaughter charges, officials said Saturday.

James and Jennifer Crumbley were found on the first floor of an industrial building near where authorities had located their car shortly before they were apprehended, Detroit Police spokesperson Rudy Harper told CNN.

"They appeared to be hiding in the building," Detroit Police Chief James White said during a news conference early Saturday morning. They were "very distressed" after they were detained, the chief said.
:
:
But White pointed out that there was no sign the Crumbleys wanted to be found. He added the couple was assisted in getting inside the building, a matter which may trigger charges.

"This isn't indicative of turning themselves in, hiding in a warehouse," the police chief said.

[Edward64]

I'm a little surprised the armorer hasn't already been charged.

My not-a-lawyer impression in this case is that Baldwin will face some financial penalties here (as the producer, not as the actor) because he's ultimately responsible for the negligence on the set, but he won't face criminal charges. It wouldn't surprise me if the armorer gets charged with manslaughter or whatever "accidental death due to negligence" standards exist in that state.

Now that you mention it ... there was negligence there. But not sure if its the armorer or AD or both.

https://apnews.com/article/prop-gun-shooting-entertainment-shootings-movies-santa-fe-4a8e63727b0824d7a402f731b6ec54ea
However Halls (the AD) obtained the weapon before giving it to Baldwin, he failed to fully check it. Normally, he told detectives, he would examine the barrel for obstructions and have Gutierrez Reed (the armorer) open the hatch and spin the drum where the bullets go, confirming none of the rounds is live.

This time, he reported, he could only remember seeing three of the rounds, and he didn’t remember if the armorer had spun the drum.

Nevertheless, he yelled out “cold gun” to indicate it was safe to use.

“He advised he should have checked all of them, but didn’t,” a Santa Fe County sheriff’s detective wrote in the affidavit released Wednesday.

It’s unclear whether Baldwin deliberately pulled the trigger or if the gun went off inadvertently.

In the commotion after the shooting, Halls found the weapon — a black revolver manufactured by an Italian company that specializes in 19th century reproductions — on a church pew.

He brought it to Gutierrez Reed and told her to open it so he could see what was inside. There were at least four dummy bullet casings, with the small hole in the side, he told detectives.

There was one empty casing. It had no hole.

Still not buying Baldwin's "I didn't pull the trigger" yet and do want to know what the FBI has to say after examining the gun.

[JPhillips]

After seeing the full answer, what Baldwin says makes perfect sense. According to him, they were checking a shot that had his thump on the hammer. He kept pulling back the hammer a bit until he was told that was right for the shot. When he released the hammer, which was half-cocked or so, the bullet fired. That's a much more believable and understandable explanation than the clickbait headlines about not pulling the trigger.

I know it was a small budget movie, but even at my level of theatre, we don't use firing guns unless they need to fire, and if they do need to fire we don't do anything with them just in case we could fire them early. You do need to treat firing guns much differently than non-firing.

[Ksyrup]

Re the MI parents, it definitely wouldn't shock me if the prosecutor wanted to make more of a splash by turning a low-key voluntary surrender away from cameras into something more. I was once involved, from the administrative side, on a case against a bunch of Insurance agents whose attorneys offered a voluntary surrender which was rejected by the cops so they could film a 5am arrest at their houses and do the perp walk for publicity.

[GrantDawg]

Now that you mention it ... there was negligence there. But not sure if its the armorer or AD or both.

https://apnews.com/article/prop-gun-shooting-entertainment-shootings-movies-santa-fe-4a8e63727b0824d7a402f731b6ec54ea


Still not buying Baldwin's "I didn't pull the trigger" yet and do want to know what the FBI has to say after examining the gun.
It would be both not either, or. The armorer's responsibility is make sure the gun never had live rounds in it in the first place. The AD not making the full check is one thing, but everything to do with that gun is fully the responsibility of the armorer.

[albionmoonlight]

Re the MI parents, it definitely wouldn't shock me if the prosecutor wanted to make more of a splash by turning a low-key voluntary surrender away from cameras into something more. I was once involved, from the administrative side, on a case against a bunch of Insurance agents whose attorneys offered a voluntary surrender which was rejected by the cops so they could film a 5am arrest at their houses and do the perp walk for publicity.

I will also say that law enforcement and/or probation and/or prosecutors generally lack the language to describe something as anything other than "absconding."

If a Defendant, say, shows up to report at the wrong office, they will describe that as "absconding" from supervision or "escaping" from custody. Once everyone figures out what happened and that it really was an honest mistake and the defendant explains that to the Court, then everything is fine.

But the default is to call it absconding/escape and make the Defendant show it was an honest mistake.

So I'm not really sure what these parents did, but if their attorney was, say, in negotiations with the prosecutors for a voluntary surrender and some arbitrary deadline passed while that was happening, they could be considered in "escape" status without having done anything that anyone would consider wrong.

[JPhillips]

It would be both not either, or. The armorer's responsibility is make sure the gun never had live rounds in it in the first place. The AD not making the full check is one thing, but everything to do with that gun is fully the responsibility of the armorer.

I don't know how it works legally, but practically, it's the fault of both of them. The check from the AD is there to catch any mistakes from the armorer.

[PilotMan]

I will also say that law enforcement and/or probation and/or prosecutors generally lack the language to describe something as anything other than "absconding."

If a Defendant, say, shows up to report at the wrong office, they will describe that as "absconding" from supervision or "escaping" from custody. Once everyone figures out what happened and that it really was an honest mistake and the defendant explains that to the Court, then everything is fine.

But the default is to call it absconding/escape and make the Defendant show it was an honest mistake.

So I'm not really sure what these parents did, but if their attorney was, say, in negotiations with the prosecutors for a voluntary surrender and some arbitrary deadline passed while that was happening, they could be considered in "escape" status without having done anything that anyone would consider wrong.

Not sure I'd say that hiding in the basement of a warehouse that someone had to let them in to was meeting at the wrong place when they never showed up to the arraignment.

[RainMaker]

I will also say that law enforcement and/or probation and/or prosecutors generally lack the language to describe something as anything other than "absconding."

If a Defendant, say, shows up to report at the wrong office, they will describe that as "absconding" from supervision or "escaping" from custody. Once everyone figures out what happened and that it really was an honest mistake and the defendant explains that to the Court, then everything is fine.

But the default is to call it absconding/escape and make the Defendant show it was an honest mistake.

So I'm not really sure what these parents did, but if their attorney was, say, in negotiations with the prosecutors for a voluntary surrender and some arbitrary deadline passed while that was happening, they could be considered in "escape" status without having done anything that anyone would consider wrong.

They pulled $4000 from an ATM early in the morning, failed to show up to an arraignment, didn't stay in contact with authorities, turned off their phones, ditched their car, and were caught hiding out in a basement of a building just a short distance from the Canadian border.

This couple has gotten an insane amount of leeway. We don't have to pretend this was some misunderstanding. They were fleeing and the police were right about this. If anything, without the police coming out and saying they were on the run, their car wouldn't have been spotted and they'd be somewhere in Canada right now.

[Atocep]

Patriots (fleeing the country), Family Values (bailing on their kid), Law and Order (breaking multiple laws), Immigration (trying to illegally cross into Canada)

Am I missing any?

[miami_fan]

They pulled $4000 from an ATM early in the morning,

What ATM is letting you take out $4000?!

[Edward64]

What ATM is letting you take out $4000?!

That is curious to me also, my limit is like $400. But found this, so guess it is possible.

A specific answer to this question will depend on who you bank with. But, generally, ATM cash withdrawal limits can range from $300 to $5,000 per day. Individual banks and credit unions set their own limits. Your personal ATM withdrawal limit also may depend on the type of accounts you have and your banking history.

[JPhillips]

lol

Crumbley's parents tried to get to Canada, but they were denied because they aren't vaccinated.

[larrymcg421]

lol

Crumbley's parents tried to get to Canada, but they were denied because they aren't vaccinated.

Well if they got the vaccine, then the government could track them and would've found them much sooner.

[whomario]

lol

Crumbley's parents tried to get to Canada, but they were denied because they aren't vaccinated.

They just earned themselves even more donations for their legal defense by checking that box.

[PilotMan]

When will the United states start realizing that the incredible number of guns in the USA and the ease at which they are obtained is a huge part of the destabilizing factor of neighboring countries? Where do you think Mexican drug gangs get their armaments from?

[albionmoonlight]

When will the United states start realizing that the incredible number of guns in the USA and the ease at which they are obtained is a huge part of the destabilizing factor of neighboring countries? Where do you think Mexican drug gangs get their armaments from?

We know. We've just decided that's not enough of a reason to restrict gun sales.

[albionmoonlight]

They pulled $4000 from an ATM early in the morning, failed to show up to an arraignment, didn't stay in contact with authorities, turned off their phones, ditched their car, and were caught hiding out in a basement of a building just a short distance from the Canadian border.

This couple has gotten an insane amount of leeway. We don't have to pretend this was some misunderstanding. They were fleeing and the police were right about this. If anything, without the police coming out and saying they were on the run, their car wouldn't have been spotted and they'd be somewhere in Canada right now.

Having learned these new facts, I now agree that they are not in the box of people who showed up at the city courthouse when they were supposed to show up at the county courthouse.

[miami_fan]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/06/us/michigan-oxford-high-school-shooting-monday/index.html

Yeah I don't see this one flying either. I think that they should have checked his backpack given the information that they had. I have seen school administrations do so my whole life for much much less. I just don't think that a jury would blame the school for not checking his backpack.

[Edward64]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/06/us/michigan-oxford-high-school-shooting-monday/index.html

Yeah I don't see this one flying either. I think that they should have checked his backpack given the information that they had. I have seen school administrations do so my whole life for much much less. I just don't think that a jury would blame the school for not checking his backpack.

Yeah, that's kinda weird. Agree no jury would blame the school.

A Crumbley attorney said the gun was locked. But haven't read anything to corroborate. That is an interesting angle - if locked, probably not in a gun safe but maybe drawer? Is that considered locked for the purposes of negligence defense? It probably is but more to come.

[BYU 14]

Yeah, that's kinda weird. Agree no jury would blame the school.

A Crumbley attorney said the gun was locked. But haven't read anything to corroborate. That is an interesting angle - if locked, probably not in a gun safe but maybe drawer? Is that considered locked for the purposes of negligence defense? It probably is but more to come.

It could have been a trigger lock, which in reality does no good if the person that shouldn't have the gun unsupervised, has the key.

[miami_fan]

It could have been a trigger lock, which in reality does no good if the person that shouldn't have the gun unsupervised, has the key.

I was thinking it was locked in the drawer with the key hanging on the wall next to the drawer.

[miami_fan]

I have been hearing a lot about and from the the lawyer(s) for the parents and nothing about the lawyer for the kid. So I looked it up and he has a court appointed attorney. While his parents are being represented by the team that represented Larry Nassir.

That is an interesting parental choice but I respect their right to make such a choice.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have been hearing a lot about and from the the lawyer(s) for the parents and nothing about the lawyer for the kid. So I looked it up and he has a court appointed attorney. While his parents are being represented by the team that represented Larry Nassir.

That is an interesting parental choice but I respect their right to make such a choice.

I think this is more about the lawyers than the parents.

The lawyers have nothing to gain by representing the murderer. Other than the fact that he's being tried as an adult, there is nothing interesting in his case that will elevate their profile in certain circles.

That said, the charges against the parents are quite aggressive and will raise some pretty novel arguments of law and could draw the attraction of Second Amendment folks and others. I doubt the parents will be paying any of these attorney's legal fees. These attorneys just want their name in the press and to become (in)famous. The parents' case could do this, the murderer's not so much.

[NobodyHere]

If I was lawyer working for the parents I would definitely want to be paid in advance.

[PilotMan]

If I was lawyer working for the parents I would definitely want to be paid in advance.

You might have thought that Rudy would have thought the same thing considering the track record of the guy he was working for and yet...

[GrantDawg]

The shooters parents trial is definitely going to be an interesting one to watch. As much as I hope they will be convicted, I believe it is going to be difficult.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Honolulu_Blue]

The shooters parents trial is definitely going to be an interesting one to watch. As much as I hope they will be convicted, I believe it is going to be difficult.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Agreed on both account. I think it’s worth trying, because it’s the only way to try to move the needle on this stuff.

As for dress, I’m sure there will be certain folks or groups - gun advocate types - who will be willing to give money for attorneys’ fees.

[NobodyHere]

So this a video of the Oxford shooter from a year ago

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZcbyC1NEmHc" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have to think there's going to be some form of insanity defense because something was not right with that kid.

[RainMaker]

Another mass shooter in Colorado. That state seems to have their share of nuts. Targeted some tattoo parlors and was a white supremacist.

[RainMaker]

Attention Required! | Cloudflare (https://www.thedailybeast.com/sixth-person-dies-after-deadly-denver-killing-spree-police-say)

[PilotMan]

Alt-Right = American Extremist Terrorist

[RainMaker]

He named his real life victims in a book he wrote that was sold on Amazon. Had made tons of death threats on social media and those sites did nothing. Appears cops were called a few times and they blew it off. Well done everyone!

Denver gunman's novels named real-life victims, described similar attacks (https://www.denverpost.com/2021/12/29/denver-shooting-named-victims-books/)

[QuikSand]

#Sacramento

no need to worry, standard array of "thought and prayers" plus "screaming into the void" will suffice

a community in shock, and at least a half dozen families into deep mourning, but we'll soldier on as always

[JPhillips]

I don't mean to downplay anything, but it's fascinating that the shooting in Tel Aviv is getting a bunch of media attention after the Sacramento shooting received so little.

[RainMaker]

Mass shooting in Brooklyn subway. Really weird story. By some miracle, no one died.

Brooklyn subway shooting: Live updates of NYC attack (https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/brooklyn-subway-shooting-live-updates-of-nyc-attack/)

[GrantDawg]

Mass shooting in Brooklyn subway. Really weird story. By some miracle, no one died.

Brooklyn subway shooting: Live updates of NYC attack (https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/brooklyn-subway-shooting-live-updates-of-nyc-attack/)
And the shooter escaped. Crazy.

[RainMaker]

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Harrowing photos from the aftermath of today’s subway shooting, shared exclusively with the Daily News by Ray Chiodini, who was on the train during the attack. <a href="https://t.co/R4k71WwcKD">pic.twitter.com/R4k71WwcKD</a></p>&mdash; Clayton Guse (@ClaytonGuse) <a href="https://twitter.com/ClaytonGuse/status/1514011302519353350?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 12, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[NobodyHere]

Well there has been a person of interest named:

Brooklyn subway shooting: Police identify Frank R. James of Philadelphia as person of interest (https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/live-updates/brooklyn-subway-shooting-manhunt-nyc-attack/)

Seem like a typical hateful mentally-ill shooter.

[RainMaker]

This has a little more on the shooter. Left his credit card on the scene and thankfully botched what could have been a massacre. Still on the run apparently.

'They Made Me More Dangerous': Frank James Blames NY Mayor for Breakdown (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/they-made-me-more-dangerous-frank-james-blames-ny-mayor-breakdown-1697466%3famp=1)

[NobodyHere]

Looks like they got him.

The suspect in the subway shooting has been arrested, officials say (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-suspect-in-the-subway-shooting-has-been-arrested-officials-say/ar-AAWbNHb?li=BBnb7Kz)

[RainMaker]

I feel like taking 24 hours to arrest a mentally-ill senior citizen who committed a mass shooting in a busy part of New York in broad daylight where cops are stationed is a pretty enormous failure by the NYPD. $10 billion a year just doesn't go as far as it used to.

[NobodyHere]

Well that was nice of Frank

NYC subway shooting suspect called tip line on himself, sources say (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/nyc-subway-shooting-updates-suspect-called-tip-line-on-himself-sources-say/ar-AAWaMqb?li=BBnb7Kz)

[RainMaker]

I think he assumed that he would be caught or killed right away. When nothing happened to him, he kind of just wandered around for a day and didn't know what to do. Apparently he wasn't really hiding either, people said he was at a popular restaurant during the day.

[NobodyHere]

Columbia, South Carolina mall shooting: 12 injured, three people arrested after shooting at mall | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/16/us/shooting-at-south-carolina-mall/index.html)

Some kind of gang shootout maybe?

[Thomkal]

Columbia, South Carolina mall shooting: 12 injured, three people arrested after shooting at mall | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/16/us/shooting-at-south-carolina-mall/index.html)

Some kind of gang shootout maybe?


It sounds like it to me. And nothing says a Happy Easter like a gang shooting

[RainMaker]

I am hoping these mass shooters aim have gotten worse. That's two with no deaths.

[QuikSand]

On all the tiresome multi-casualty shooting stories, that basically don't even land anymore... there is a cool-headed, rational person inside me who genuinely doesn't really believe that the various incremental policies we toss around would do much to stop all this carnage.

And then...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">*PHOTOS* Multiple firearms and a large quantity of ammo were recovered inside the fifth floor apartment where the suspect was found deceased. <a href="https://t.co/3mR2uoqFTM">pic.twitter.com/3mR2uoqFTM</a></p>&mdash; DC Police Department (@DCPoliceDept) <a href="https://twitter.com/DCPoliceDept/status/1517686052550582279?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 23, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

...just a good American, just out there exercising his ever so important rights. I don't know what the perfect policy response is, but doing nothing doesn't seem to be doing a good job at all. I hate this paralysis, as the victim count balloons out of control with nobody new caring, globally.

[AlexB]

The individual gun-related deaths of children can be written off as tragedies independent of the wider world.

Will guns becoming the largest killer of children & teenagers in the US focus the collective mind differently?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61192975

I think we know the answer

[miami_fan]

America in 2022. U9 baseball practice includes hitting drills, pitching drills, fielding drills and... active shooter drills? JFC we are broken.

VIDEO: Shots ring out during youth baseball game in North Charleston | WBTW (https://www.wbtw.com/news/video-shots-ring-out-during-youth-baseball-game-in-north-charleston/)

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[NobodyHere]

The individual gun-related deaths of children can be written off as tragedies independent of the wider world.

Will guns becoming the largest killer of children & teenagers in the US focus the collective mind differently?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61192975

I think we know the answer

Well the answer is the give the kids more gunz so they can defend themselves.

It's so obvious.

[RainMaker]

Terrorist attack at a Buffalo supermarket. Guy posted a manifesto to 4chan and livestreamed it on Twitch. At least 8 desd.

[RainMaker]

Now up to 10 dead.

[PilotMan]

18 years old

[Vegas Vic]

After careful analysis, I've come to the conclusion that I'm far more likely to be killed in a mass shooting by a white male than I am by a foreign terrorist.

[Edward64]

Security guard hit the guy but he had on bullet proof vest. What a freaking asshole. Go volunteer in Ukraine and at least do some good playing live Call of Duty.

[BYU 14]

I REALLY want to how it is so easy to get tactical gear like this, I mean seriously.

When I take my guns to the range to shoot do I need a bullet proof tac vest to protect me from the targets attacking me.....no.

I don't hunt, but if I did would I need a tac vest to fend off killer squirrels......no

If, god forbid someone broke into my house in the middle of the night, would I first run to my closet to grab a tac vest, fill it up with extra mags, slip on my night vision goggles, then grab my gun? No, I would grab my fucking gun, tell my wife to get into the closet and call 911, while I waited from cover, hoping I would not need to take another humans life.

So someone please help me, how the hell does the second amendment cover the right to buy full military gear, including bullet proof vests, silencers and all the other bullshit these sociopaths always seem to have?

And oh yeah, this was on twitter and not only remained active, but was never caught so authorities could be notified, but Elon Musk wants to allow more of this shit sop more unhinged people can share these unhinged conspiracies?

[BYU 14]

After careful analysis, I've come to the conclusion that I'm far more likely to be killed in a mass shooting by a white male than I am by a foreign terrorist.

And it isn't even remotely close

[GrantDawg]

Sorry, I don't follow any Nazi's. Have they started blaming BLM yet? Or are they claiming the whole thing is a false flag?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

I REALLY want to how it is so easy to get tactical gear like this, I mean seriously.

When I take my guns to the range to shoot do I need a bullet proof tac vest to protect me from the targets attacking me.....no.

I don't hunt, but if I did would I need a tac vest to fend off killer squirrels......no

If, god forbid someone broke into my house in the middle of the night, would I first run to my closet to grab a tac vest, fill it up with extra mags, slip on my night vision goggles, then grab my gun? No, I would grab my fucking gun, tell my wife to get into the closet and call 911, while I waited from cover, hoping I would not need to take another humans life.

So someone please help me, how the hell does the second amendment cover the right to buy full military gear, including bullet proof vests, silencers and all the other bullshit these sociopaths always seem to have?

And oh yeah, this was on twitter and not only remained active, but was never caught so authorities could be notified, but Elon Musk wants to allow more of this shit sop more unhinged people can share these unhinged conspiracies?

I have guns but no tactical, plated vests. But from what I've read, it's pretty easy to get one if you want to pay the $.

I have no use for one, vast majority of gun owners don't. My use case is a zombie apocalypse and vests won't help :)

Re: silencers/suppressors, I'm okay with them. They aren't really silent like in the movies and yeah, I would like to shoot without my bulky hearing protection.

[BYU 14]

I for sure get how easy it is to get them, but again, I don't see why. Do we really want a civilian population equipped like our police forces? It's my same argument against high capacity mags. My 9mm holds 15+1 and my .380 6+1. If I can't neutralize a threat with that I probably shouldn't be a gun owner.

Large swaths of our society are not equipped for self defense, they are equipped for war.

[CrimsonFox]

10 dead in Buffalo supermarket attack police call hate crime (https://apnews.com/article/buffalo-supermarket-shooting-442c6d97a073f39f99d006dbba40f64b)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/buffalo-supermarket-mass-shooting-leaves-7-dead-law-enforcement-source-rcna28883

[JonInMiddleGA]

Large swaths of our society are not equipped for self defense, they are equipped for war.

The difference in the two is largely the size/scope of the threat.

And being underequipped isn't a classic recipe for survival.

[RainMaker]

Security guard hit the guy but he had on bullet proof vest. What a freaking asshole. Go volunteer in Ukraine and at least do some good playing live Call of Duty.

That part is insane. Need to update the mantra to a good guy with a gun with armor piercing bullets I guess.

[RainMaker]

Sorry, I don't follow any Nazi's. Have they started blaming BLM yet? Or are they claiming the whole thing is a false flag?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Seems like tye talking point is that it was a false flag. Even some state Senators mentioning it. Mostly just Alex Jones stuff at this point.

[GrantDawg]

Two dead and three hurt at a mass shooting in Houston, and now reports of multiple people shot at a Southern California church. America.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Is the church stuff new? Like I can't remember ever hearing about church shootings back in the day. It was even sacred ground for gangs.

[QuikSand]

I know it feels like a busy time, burying all these gun victims from multiple shootings, but it will pass, it always does. We'll get back to worrying mostly about the Kardashians and who's The Masked Singer and so forth in short order. Thoughts and prayers, nothing we could possibly do, blame mental illness, all that jazz. Hands washed.

[Atocep]

I know it feels like a busy time, burying all these gun victims from multiple shootings, but it will pass, it always does. We'll get back to worrying mostly about the Kardashians and who's The Masked Singer and so forth in short order. Thoughts and prayers, nothing we could possibly do, blame mental illness, all that jazz. Hands washed.

Come on

We're past most of that and we've moved on to worrying about how much Disney is brainwashing our children and gas prices.

[flere-imsaho]

Is the church stuff new? Like I can't remember ever hearing about church shootings back in the day. It was even sacred ground for gangs.

Depends. Is it a black church?

[RainMaker]

Depends. Is it a black church?

Good point. There was one in Texas a few years back I remember too.

[NobodyHere]

Depends. Is it a black church?

I think I read the congregation is mostly Taiwanese.

ETA: And the shooter was a Asian man in his 60s.

[flere-imsaho]

Good point. There was one in Texas a few years back I remember too.

Well, and Charleston.

Edit: Jewish temples would also count as "replacement theory" targets, too, and those have been shot up a fair bit the past decade. Our temple now has double the usual number of guards that we did in the past for services. Not something I remember happening at my church when I was growing up as a white protestant.

[RainMaker]

I think I read the congregation is mostly Taiwanese.

ETA: And the shooter was a Asian man in his 60s.

Reports are it is an American of Chinese descent who had a strong anti-Taiwanese bias from his time over there.

[miami_fan]

To bring us back to the original title of this thread.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/24/us/uvalde-texas-elementary-school-shooting/index.html

Robb Elementary teaches 2nd through 4th grades and had 535 students in the 2020-21 school year,

I have never seen a school grade grouping like this.

[Lathum]

If only those second graders had been carrying this could have all been prevented...

[Qwikshot]

If only those second graders had been carrying this could have all been prevented...

Just jumped to 16 killed...

great country we got here.

[RainMaker]

Good lord

[albionmoonlight]

This country is so addicted to not annoying conservatives that we now regularly slaughter school children rather than ask them to sacrifice anything.

And the conservatives in my orbit are still--by far--the angriest people I know.

I don't get it. Where does the anger come from? What more can we do to show you that you've won? What worlds are left to conquer?

[RainMaker]

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I'm EMBARRASSED: Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans. <a href="https://twitter.com/NRA?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NRA</a> <a href="https://t.co/Ry2GInbS1g">https://t.co/Ry2GInbS1g</a></p>&mdash; Greg Abbott (@GregAbbott_TX) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregAbbott_TX/status/659427797853536256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 28, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[HerRealName]

Time to start researching immigration to Australia again. This is awful and the Gov's office makes it sound like it is even worse than the posted article.



I have never seen a school grade grouping like this.

It's not unusual for rural school districts to have odd school groupings. I went to 1 school from K-3, a different one 4-5, a different one 6-8, and then a different one for high school.

[GrantDawg]

18 year old high school student. Kills his grandmother, then goes to the local elementary school to kill 14 kids and a teacher. When will this stop?

[Lathum]

18 year old high school student. Kills his grandmother, then goes to the local elementary school to kill 14 kids and a teacher. When will this stop?

It won't. The blood of some innocent children is a willingly paid price for rednecks to keep their toys.

[albionmoonlight]

It won't. The blood of some innocent children is a willingly paid price for rednecks to keep their toys.

Yup. Several people have indicated that they enjoy hunting. I think that ends the conversation.

[Lathum]

Yup. Several people have indicated that they enjoy hunting. I think that ends the conversation.

The problem is there is zero gray area with these people. almost all the pro gun control people I know are fine with hunting rifles, hand guns for home defense, etc....but want a ban on assault style weapons. Whenever this conversation comes up the right immediately shuts is down and starts deflecting with definitions, etc....like a former poster here used to do.

[RainMaker]

18 year old high school student. Kills his grandmother, then goes to the local elementary school to kill 14 kids and a teacher. When will this stop?

It won't. This country is what it is.

[Qwikshot]

Don't worry guys, they'll be another school/church/office/etc shooting to make you forget about this one...

it just shows you America is back from COVID. WHOOOOOO

[QuikSand]

It’s so sad

[MIJB#19]

I just got shivers over my back as if it was the first time I heard of such a tragedy. Poor kids and families.

[RainMaker]

I don't know how you break the news to parents that their 8 year old was slaughtered.

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">After Sandy Hook, I read about how the group of parents waiting in a firehouse had dwindled until finally they were told that if they were still there, their children were dead. The reporters wrote that the screaming could be heard from the street.<br><br>I will never forget that.</p>&mdash; Maggie Astor (@MaggieAstor) <a href="https://twitter.com/MaggieAstor/status/1529217248698806277?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 24, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[BYU 14]

I own guns, so I am not anti-gun, but I am anti-stupidity by our leaders, who use fear tactics (all guns are evil and need to go away, or any type of change gun law is evil and will result in you losing your guns)

So what the hell is wrong with

1-Universal gun license, like you have a drivers license, you know because everyone that opposes new gun laws says shit like, cars are dangerous, lets ban them. Well yeah, they are dangerous, that's why you have a license and lose your right to drive if you lose your license. So universal gun license, connected to a criminal and behavioral health database. You are flagged on either one, you lose your guns. You get caught with an unregistered gun, you lose you guns and go to jail, 5 years minimum. Every gun you buy is recorded on your license, which you have to renew every 10 years by taking a gun safety course.

2-Stiff penalties/agendum's for gun crime. Use a gun in a crime, nobody is killed/injured, automatic 5 year addendum to the sentence, must serve all 5. Bodily injury occurs from the gun or somethings else, add 10. Someone is killed, automatic 50 year addendum, all these must be served consecutively, so if you get life, it's life plus 50, no reduction to the addendum. Possession of unlicensed 5 years, must serve all 5.

3-All gun sales must be recorded on an individuals license. If that does not happen, seller gets 5 years too and loses their guns.

4-Don't let the public buy body armor, who the fuck needs body armor to hunt or target shoot?

5-Limits on magazine capacity, you can't defend your house with 15 rounds, you probably need more range time.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I own guns, so I am not anti-gun, but I am anti-stupidity by our leaders, who use fear tactics (all guns are evil and need to go away, or any type of change gun law is evil and will result in you losing your guns)

So what the hell is wrong with

1-Universal gun license, like you have a drivers license, you know because everyone that opposes new gun laws says shit like, cars are dangerous, lets ban them. Well yeah, they are dangerous, that's why you have a license and lose your right to drive if you lose your license. So universal gun license, connected to a criminal and behavioral health database. You are flagged on either one, you lose your guns. You get caught with an unregistered gun, you lose you guns and go to jail, 5 years minimum. Every gun you buy is recorded on your license, which you have to renew every 10 years by taking a gun safety course.

2-Stiff penalties/agendum's for gun crime. Use a gun in a crime, nobody is killed/injured, automatic 5 year addendum to the sentence, must serve all 5. Bodily injury occurs from the gun or somethings else, add 10. Someone is killed, automatic 50 year addendum, all these must be served consecutively, so if you get life, it's life plus 50, no reduction to the addendum. Possession of unlicensed 5 years, must serve all 5.

3-All gun sales must be recorded on an individuals license. If that does not happen, seller gets 5 years too and loses their guns.

4-Don't let the public buy body armor, who the fuck needs body armor to hunt or target shoot?

5-Limits on magazine capacity, you can't defend your house with 15 rounds, you probably need more range time.

I think you could get the majority of Democrats to agree to these in part of in full.

Republicans? Not so much.

[albionmoonlight]

I'd add manufacturer liability to the list. Give the gun makers/marketers an incentive to keep their guns from being used in slaughters and watch the market work.

[BYU 14]

I think you could get the majority of Democrats to agree to these in part of in full.

Republicans? Not so much.

You would think this presents a happy medium, nobody loses their AR-15, the party of law and order gets tougher prison sentences, and room can be made for these people by decriminalizing cannabis nationally, letting low level dealers/users out and expunging their records.

There is something both sides can sell, if they didn't insist on such an all or nothing game.

i also though about manufacturer liability, but that would be a death knell for sure, but yes I support it.

[albionmoonlight]

i also though about manufacturer liability, but that would be a death knell for sure, but yes I support it.

It would if nothing changed. The theory is that the gun makers would have an incentive to change things.

Personally, I have no problem with guns. I have a problem with slaughtering kids. If we can get everyone on board with solutions that let us keep one without the other, then that's great IMO.

[BYU 14]

True, and the gun lobby will fight like hell regardless, but if anything is going to cost them they will really up the intensity of resistance. Maybe start small and bring something like that later.

[larrymcg421]

The only gun control that could pass would have to be supported by the NRA. As long as they own at least 41 Senators, then nothing's going to change.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am strong proponent of gun control. Very strong, but in addition, we really need to do something to figure out the underlying sickness that is afflicting men, typically younger, in this country that’s causing them to carry out these horrific acts.

[NobodyHere]

... but in addition, we really need to do something to figure out the underlying sickness that is afflicting men, typically younger, in this country that’s causing them to carry out these horrific acts.

Plus one here.

What causes someone to be so angry that they need to go out and kill children, especially when they know that the likely outcome for themselves is death or life in jail.

[Qwikshot]

Plus one here.

What causes someone to be so angry that they need to go out and kill children, especially when they know that the likely outcome for themselves is death or life in jail.

Because they can....

[RainMaker]

There's nothing you can really do. It's a dying empire that has a sickness that can't be fixed by some mild gun control measures. Mass slaughter of children in schools is as much a part of our culture as cars, burgers, and football.

[thesloppy]

MAYBE several mass shootings in legislatures rather than schools seems like the only possible way to get any change in this country, and even then it would depend entirely on the partisan scorecard.

[Lathum]

MAYBE several mass shootings in legislatures rather than schools seems like the only possible way to get any change in this country, and even then it would depend entirely on the partisan scorecard.

We literally had insurrectionists wanting to hang the VP and his own President and party whitewashed it...

[stevew]

We should have a federal holiday for victims of school shootings. Just call it “Inaction Day” or something to that effect.

[RainMaker]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sad update… Families tell me they’re going one by one inside getting swabbed for DNA to help investigators <a href="https://t.co/zTuWr873Gk">pic.twitter.com/zTuWr873Gk</a></p>&mdash; Anayeli Ruiz KHOU (@AnayeliNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnayeliNews/status/1529276451152969733?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Atocep]

It's already being spun as strictly a mental health issue and anyone bringing up gun control in the aftermath of a mass shooting is a narcissist and damaging the healing process.

[JPhillips]

Good lord. Herschel Walker starts his campaign by suggesting the massacre was faked.

And not a single GOPer will say a damned thing.

[NobodyHere]

It's already being spun as strictly a mental health issue and anyone bringing up gun control in the aftermath of a mass shooting is a narcissist and damaging the healing process.

Is this not a mental health issue?

[Atocep]

Is this not a mental health issue?


strictly a mental health issue

Mental health is a part of a number of issues that lead to mass shootings. As a country we don't have a monopoly on mental health issues but we do have one on mass shootings.

[RainMaker]

Is this not a mental health issue?

Yeah it's weird how only this country has mentally ill people. All those other counties where this doesn't happen every single day got lucky.

[RainMaker]

Just a complete garbage country.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The agonized screams of family members are audible from the parking lot</p>&mdash; Niki Griswold (@nikigriswold) <a href="https://twitter.com/nikigriswold/status/1529291389711818753?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[RainMaker]

Congressman

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We know already fool. It’s a transsexual leftist illegal alien named Salvatore Ramos. It’s apparently your kind of trash. <a href="https://t.co/kXZFCp91Ib">https://t.co/kXZFCp91Ib</a></p>&mdash; Paul Gosar (@DrPaulGosar) <a href="https://twitter.com/DrPaulGosar/status/1529268057776001024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[miami_fan]

I know the authorities' request is a reason. I think I know the PR reason for taking down the suspect's (can't call him a murderer remember?) Instagram page but it does not make any sense to me. If you are taking down the page now because something on the page is problematic, why did you wait until after the school shooting to take it down. Was something added on there during the shooting or immediately after the shooting? If it was problematic before the shooting why did you leave it up there? It just has a bolt the barn door after the herd has escaped sort of feel to me.

[miami_fan]

It's not unusual for rural school districts to have odd school groupings. I went to 1 school from K-3, a different one 4-5, a different one 6-8, and then a different one for high school.

Wow, I had no clue. Thanks for the info.

[Hammer]

Yeah it's weird how only this country has mentally ill people. All those other counties where this doesn't happen every single day got lucky.

So sad to see the news this morning. We have plenty of mentally ill people in the UK. An 18 year old just doesn't have the option of grabbing an AR, or any gun for that matter. He might throw himself on a train track or worse case scenario stab someone.

[AlexB]

True, and the gun lobby will fight like hell regardless, but if anything is going to cost them they will really up the intensity of resistance. Maybe start small and bring something like that later.

That’s why nothing will be given in the first place, however reasonable like your earlier suggestions - that is the NRA’s exact argument: the inch now becomes a mile later.

[Galaril]

Mental health is a part of a number of issues that lead to mass shootings. As a country we don't have a monopoly on mental health issues but we do have one on mass shootings.

It’s a gun issue period.

[flere-imsaho]

Is this not a mental health issue?

Sure, in the same way that Tom Brady's lack of mobility in the pocket has been detrimental to his career.

[NobodyHere]

It’s a gun issue period.

So the gun just walked into the school and started shooting?

[Groundhog]

So the gun just walked into the school and started shooting?


No. But it any other country in the world, a kid bullied about his stuttering does not have access to firearms to walk into a school and start executing kids and teachers.

[albionmoonlight]

Every other civilized country in the world has figured this out. Make it hard to get guns. Make it hard to get body armor. You reduce the mass murder of innocents. This is a problem with a trivially simple solution that has successfully been done around the world.

If the response by some folks is that they'd prefer it to be easy to obtain guns and body armor and slaughtering a bunch of kids 4-5 times a year is the price they are willing to pay, then I strongly disagree with that. But at least it's honest. I'm willing to accept tens of thousands of traffic deaths per year in exchange for a world with cars. But I don't try to pretend that it isn't a choice. Or that we'd have the same number of fatal crashes with horses and bicycles.

Pretending that this issue is complicated insults our intelligence.

Engaging the "guns don't kill people; people kill people" crowd at this point is not just useless; it is actively harmful b/c it distracts for the debates we should be having.

[flere-imsaho]

So the gun just walked into the school and started shooting?

Yes, and that's why we need to ban guns.

[Kodos]

It is a mental health combined with access to guns issue. No guns and body armor = much lower body count.

[NobodyHere]

Yes, and that's why we need to ban guns.

Although I'm sympathetic to the idea (even if it does offend my libertarian leanings) in theory.

Good luck with that. You and I both know that would cause a civil war and I would bet on the side with the guns winning.

[molson]

The United States is a lot different than other countries. Legislating away culture is difficult. The Obama years were the best years ever for the gun and ammo industries, and the Dems didn't even accomplish anything gun control-wise. If they actually managed to pass "reasonable gun control", the number of guns in the U.S. would explode again.

People love to cite that Onion article, but, it's unironically true.

[flere-imsaho]

Although I'm sympathetic to the idea (even if it does offend my libertarian leanings) in theory.

Good luck with that. You and I both know that would cause a civil war and I would bet on the side with the guns winning.

Oh I'm sorry, were we having a serious discussion, or talking about walking guns? I'm confused.

[Edward64]

You would think this presents a happy medium, nobody loses their AR-15, the party of law and order gets tougher prison sentences, and room can be made for these people by decriminalizing cannabis nationally, letting low level dealers/users out and expunging their records.

There is something both sides can sell, if they didn't insist on such an all or nothing game.

i also though about manufacturer liability, but that would be a death knell for sure, but yes I support it.

I like your proposal but would even say training is required every 2-3 years vs 10.

I do not support manufacturer liability on guns. Don't really see how that works unless there truly was negligence. I do think parents/guardians have more liability also.

However, even with all your proposals, would it have stopped this shooting?

Articles I've read said he purchased the weapons when he turned 18. Unsure if it was done legally though (probably).

[Edward64]

Yes, and that's why we need to ban guns.

Nope. More gun control, restrictions, limitations etc. I can live with.

[Lathum]

Nope. More gun control, restrictions, limitations etc. I can live with.

Can't say the same for those kids...

[Lathum]

However, even with all your proposals, would it have stopped this shooting?
.

We hear comments like this every time. Perhaps if we put measures in place after Sandy Hook, of Stoneman Douglas, this shooting wouldn't have happened.

There is no quick fix. We need a huge cultural shift as a nation away from gun fetishment. The quicker we make changes that can begin. It won't happen in a year or 5 years, but over generations but as long as we have the " would it have prevented X shooting" those changes will never be made.

[NobodyHere]

Good lord. Herschel Walker starts his campaign by suggesting the massacre was faked.

And not a single GOPer will say a damned thing.

Where did you see that at?

[kingfc22]

However, even with all your proposals, would it have stopped this shooting?


How about we try and find out. For fucks sake, I'm so tired of this line of thinking. CLEARLY doing NOTHING is not helping so how about we fucking try something.

[BYU 14]

However, even with all your proposals, would it have stopped this shooting?


Nobody can say definitively yes or no, but with what the Buffalo shooter put our there, pretty good chance that would have been averted. We can't weigh on on this until more details come out, but the premise of "would this have helped" is why we are here.

The whole "We just have to accept this as collateral damage of our freedoms" is ridiculous, so instead of opining on whether it would have helped or not, let's at least try something. At some point lives will be saved and that in itself is worth the effort, over just thoughts and prayers and on to the next mass shooting, where more families are torn apart at the seams as the NRA determines their bribe allotments to congress.

[bhlloy]

2 cops engaged the shooter outside the school and were wounded and couldn’t stop him going in? Clearly it’s the ratio of good guys with guns to bad guys in tactical body armor with AR’s that needs to be tweaked amirite.

[Lathum]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0rR9IaXH1M0" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RainMaker]

2 cops engaged the shooter outside the school and were wounded and couldn’t stop him going in? Clearly it’s the ratio of good guys with guns to bad guys in tactical body armor with AR’s that needs to be tweaked amirite.

Sounds like they ran off to hide. Another bang up job by the fine men in blue.

[Galaril]

No. But it any other country in the world, a kid bullied about his stuttering does not have access to firearms to walk into a school and start executing kids and teachers.

Thanks for the response. This is spot on.

[Atocep]

Every other civilized country in the world has figured this out. Make it hard to get guns. Make it hard to get body armor. You reduce the mass murder of innocents. This is a problem with a trivially simple solution that has successfully been done around the world.

If the response by some folks is that they'd prefer it to be easy to obtain guns and body armor and slaughtering a bunch of kids 4-5 times a year is the price they are willing to pay, then I strongly disagree with that. But at least it's honest. I'm willing to accept tens of thousands of traffic deaths per year in exchange for a world with cars. But I don't try to pretend that it isn't a choice. Or that we'd have the same number of fatal crashes with horses and bicycles.

Pretending that this issue is complicated insults our intelligence.

Engaging the "guns don't kill people; people kill people" crowd at this point is not just useless; it is actively harmful b/c it distracts for the debates we should be having.


The car thing is a common argument I'm seeing pop up on the right, but the difference is cars aren't designed to kill while that's the only purpose of guns.

[albionmoonlight]

The car thing is a common argument I'm seeing pop up on the right, but the difference is cars aren't designed to kill while that's the only purpose of guns.

And it's a real argument. Cars make the world a more dangerous place. I'm willing to accept that for the value they provide.

My issue (well, one of my issues) with the gun folks is that they refuse to acknowledge that it is a trade off.

[Atocep]

You can tell tragedies like this scare the hard line gun owners that something might actually happen with gun control. I've seen the them throw so much shit against the wall trying to see what narrative sticks.

I think the most telling example of how morally corrupt these people are is how quick they were to assume this was a border control issue. Since a border control agent ended the shooting the story they initially ran with on social media was the border agent was chasing an illegal that crossed the border. Not even stopping to think how absolutely absurd that is.

[larrymcg421]

There are also licensing and registration requirements for car owners and tons of regulations and requirements for car manufacturers.

[flere-imsaho]

However, even with all your proposals, would it have stopped this shooting?


Yeah, it's a shame we have no example of proposals working to which we could point. (https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/1996-national-firearms-agreement.html)

[Atocep]

And it's a real argument. Cars make the world a more dangerous place. I'm willing to accept that for the value they provide.

My issue (well, one of my issues) with the gun folks is that they refuse to acknowledge that it is a trade off.

Cars do make the world a more dangerous place, but we're also continuously developing ways to make them safer and we do require a baseline proficiency and safety test before you can drive one legally.

When's the last time a gun maker tried to make a gun to kill less people? Back in the 80s the NRA was more about gun safety than making sure every single human being has the right to own a gun. I remember the NRA sponsoring gun safety classes in our schools where they had people come in and talk to classrooms.

[flere-imsaho]

There are also licensing and registration requirements for car owners and tons of regulations and requirements for car manufacturers.

For many if not most states it is significantly harder to acquire a license to operate a motor vehicle than it is to purchase a firearm. Many red states, like Texas, have "shall issue" laws, which means a permit for firearm ownership must be issued if the applicant meets certain basic requirements (like age).

[RainMaker]

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Texas Gov. Abbott: &quot;It could have been worse.&quot;</p>&mdash; Neda Toloui-Semnani (@Neda_Semnani) <a href="https://twitter.com/Neda_Semnani/status/1529517778029449219?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[Atocep]

In state where you can permitless carry nearly anywhere, of course the NRA has banned guns at their leadership conference in Houston.

Ya know, because guns are fucking dangerous.

[Qwikshot]

And it's a real argument. Cars make the world a more dangerous place. I'm willing to accept that for the value they provide.

My issue (well, one of my issues) with the gun folks is that they refuse to acknowledge that it is a trade off.

Kind off hard to barricade a ford in a classroom and take out 20 kids though.

[Qwikshot]

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Texas Gov. Abbott: &quot;It could have been worse.&quot;</p>&mdash; Neda Toloui-Semnani (@Neda_Semnani) <a href="https://twitter.com/Neda_Semnani/status/1529517778029449219?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

That’s better than “thoughts and prayers” right?

When I hear these conservatives say that it really means “fuck you and your dead kids”

[RainMaker]

In state where you can permitless carry nearly anywhere, of course the NRA has banned guns at their leadership conference in Houston.

Ya know, because guns are fucking dangerous.

Easiest tell there is. They know how dangerous they are because they ban them.

[GrantDawg]

I wish I could vote for Beto. I would at least like to buy him a beer.

[Drake]

I wish I could vote for Beto. I would at least like to buy him a bear.

Well that seems uncharacteristically hostile for you.

[GrantDawg]

Well that seems uncharacteristically hostile for you.
No, he likes bears. (edited to fix that)

[albionmoonlight]

Beto's likely to lose anyway, so I agree with the strategy of not extending civility to people who don't deserve it.

The typical red state Dem strategy of "I love conservative things just slightly less than Republicans" isn't going to work in a red wave environment. So why not say and do what you actually believe.

[Ksyrup]

We hear comments like this every time. Perhaps if we put measures in place after Sandy Hook, of Stoneman Douglas, this shooting wouldn't have happened.

There is no quick fix. We need a huge cultural shift as a nation away from gun fetishment. The quicker we make changes that can begin. It won't happen in a year or 5 years, but over generations but as long as we have the " would it have prevented X shooting" those changes will never be made.

This is exactly right. This isn't a simple, "Put gun laws in place and stop mass shootings." This needs to be treated like smoking. We need a multi-generational, long-term culture change that starts with common sense restrictions. These proposed laws aren't intended to be the be-all, end-all quick fix.

[Lathum]

apparently Beto just interrupted Abbots presser and went off on him to the point he was escorted out.

[RainMaker]

I like how Abbott wears a little fake sheriff costume for these press conferences

[flere-imsaho]

apparently Beto just interrupted Abbots presser and went off on him to the point he was escorted out.

Now this, this is good.

[Atocep]

I want to live in the timeline where Beto gets elected governor of Texas.

[Atocep]

For some reason the manufacturer of the AR15 that was used in the shooting went back and deleted this tweet from a few days ago.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/QP0FhmoSVR2buhqXDO.gJQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/RJThu6gb58JhQlwMw33bbw--~B/aD0wO3c9MDthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/usa_today_news_641/027d7b03fde69e0de8d4b73f67578d26