Rick Carlisle FIRED!!! [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Abe Sargent

05-31-2003, 04:00 AM

Honestly, what more could you do as a Head Coach? You are in your second year as a coach. Last year, you took a struggling team, installed a Defense First attitude alongside a Team First attitude and take your team deep into the playoffs. As a result of your coaching, you are the NBA Coach of the Year, have the Defensive MVP, and received tremendous accolades.

Year two, your team has the best record in the East, and makes it to the Eastern Conference Championships playing what most refer to as Old School teamwork basketball. No superstars, defying a formula for success that has been in place for a while now.

Two years, deep in the playoffs, an overachieving team, NBA Coach of the Year award. What more could the Pistons have wanted?

Maybe there is more info to the story, and we'll find out more, but for right now, I just have to wonder if this wasn't one of the Stupidest Coach Firings of All Time.

-Anxiety

Rich1033

05-31-2003, 04:12 AM

Wow, thats a shock. Dumars better already have the inside track on Brown or Van Gundy to make this move.

Actually even if he does I still dont agree with it.

daedalus

05-31-2003, 04:59 AM

This doesn't make sense to me, either.

As much as everybody seems to love either Brown or Van Gundy, I don't know that they can do much more than Carlisle has done.

Blackadar

05-31-2003, 06:41 AM

Bizarre. Too bad Buttercup's banned or he could give us an explanation. :)

oykib

05-31-2003, 06:44 AM

I think that this is a black mark on Dumars and the ownership. They do have a chance to land a top flight coach now-- especially with Darko coming. But you can't fire guys after performances like the two year stretch Carlisle just took the Pistons through.

BreizhManu

05-31-2003, 07:06 AM

read it on another board :

Originally posted by Zigue at http://insiders3.ezboard.com/fdetroitpistonsfrm1

Here are a few reasons that we can speculate on:

Joe blamed coaching for our collapse against the Nets (who are not that much better than us) as well as our horrid start against Orlando.

Joe had philosophical disagreements with Carlisle over Curry starting and the pound the ball into the ground for 23 seconds offense that we ran.

Joe and Rick disagreed on Carmelo versus Darko

Rick was demanding an outrageous extension.

They are having disagreements over the future of the franchise, including trades on the table and other stuff that we will never know about.

Joe sees Brown, Gumby and Silas as much better coaches than Rick.

Rip and Chauncey did not like Carlisle's way.

Carlisle has less charisma than a deflated ball on the bottom rung of a rusted ball rack.

Just guesses. We shall find out in time.

oykib

05-31-2003, 07:18 AM

But I thought that the point was results. If you look at that Detroit team's roster, do you see a 50-win, #1 seeded conference finalist?

Samdari

05-31-2003, 07:56 AM

I just don't see how they thought anyone could get more out of that team. You think Dumars will try to lure Zeke away from the Pacers, or worse, Laimbeer from the WNBA?

TroyF

05-31-2003, 10:14 AM

Unbelievable. This is one of the more bizzare firings I've ever seen. As has been mentioned, I think the guy got more from that group of players than anyone could reasonably suspect.

I find it hard to respect this decision.

TroyF

bigdawg2003

05-31-2003, 10:54 AM

Unbelievable. What the hell is Dumars smoking?

GrantDawg

05-31-2003, 11:01 AM

I don't give a lick about basketball, but I heard about this on the radio. Someone is going to need to come up with a good explaination for this firing, or who in their right mind would take that job? You would have to think "win it all in one year or else be fired."

bigdawg2003

05-31-2003, 11:09 AM

Hopefully Carlisle will go to the Rockets and lead them to a finals win over Larry Brown's Pistons. I say Rockets because I want Carlisle to beat Brown while he's in Detroit, and that won't be more than five seasons. Of all the teams w/o a coach (minus Detroit), Houston will win sooner.

heybrad

05-31-2003, 11:23 AM

I'd like to see him go to Philadelphia. Imagine him bringing the same type of defense to Philly and having Iverson on offense. Not a bad combo.

cmp

05-31-2003, 11:30 AM

I think it's a good move for the Pistons. Carlisle didn't have as much to do with the success as you all think. Their defensive success was primarily because of assistant coach Kevin O'Neill. He implented the system and he ran it. And now O'Neill is possibly heading to Toronto as their new head coach. Carlisle is not good at developing young players. He didn't even play Tayshaun this year until they got to the playoffs, and even then he only played because Michael Curry got foul trouble in one the games. And now with Darko coming in I think Dumars had no confidence in Carlisle to develop him properly.

JPhillips

05-31-2003, 12:08 PM

I think Dumars was programmed by Marc Vaughn!

Bishop

05-31-2003, 12:10 PM

Pistons to name Brown as new coach Monday

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0531/1561343.html

bbor

05-31-2003, 12:29 PM

Carlyle is coming to Toronto :d

He can take over another under achieving team

vtbub

05-31-2003, 12:36 PM

Really a dumb move.

Real classy.

ice4277

05-31-2003, 12:49 PM

IMO this will be a good move. Carlisle was MUCH too inflexible with his coaching style, and was hell-bent throughout most of the season on not playing Tayshaun and Okur that much. The only reason Tayshaun broke into the lineup was becuase of injuries and Corliss Williamson playing like piss. The offense stagnated and he did little to try and change it. Carlisle was a good coach but, for me, he was never going to win a title here. I think Carlise would have had to change his strategies a bit too much for his liking. If you just look at the record, then yes, he did a good job, but you could also say the team would have been much better served by playing the youngsters more, winning less during the regular season, but giving them valuable experience come the playoffs. This move was not made for the past, it was made for the future.

ice4277

05-31-2003, 12:51 PM

Dola

Here's a link (http://www.detnews.com/2003/pistons/0305/31/pistons-179398.htm) to a pretty good column discussing this. Or for those too lazy to click on the button:

AUBURN HILLS -- Larry Brown is the next coach of the Pistons.

The official announcement could come as early as Monday. And it only makes sense.

If you're going to fire a young coach in Rick Carlisle, which the Pistons did Saturday, you have to hire one of the top coaches in the NBA as his replacement.

Plus, you don't make this move unless you either have a guy already in place or you know for sure that you can secure your new coach quickly.

In this case, there will be no hiring process. You can't interview just any or everybody out there to fill the position. After all, Carlisle won 50 games in each of his first two seasons, won NBA Coach of the Year in his rookie season, captured two Central Division titles, had the best record in the Eastern Conference this season and took the Pistons to the conference finals before they were eliminated by the New Jersey Nets.

If you were going to hire Jeff Van Gundy, Paul Silas, Mike Dunleavy, Mike Fratello or John Calipari -- some of the available former NBA coaches out there -- you'd be better off keeping Carlisle.

That's why it has to be one of the following coaches: Phil Jackson, Pat Riley or Brown. And since Jackson, the Los Angeles Lakers coach, isn't available and neither is Riley, the Miami Heat coach and part-owner, the obvious choice is Brown.

Mark it down: Brown is the man.

Saying it was time for a "fresh look," Brown, 62, resigned as coach and vice president of basketball operations of the Philadelphia 76ers on Monday after six seasons.

Enshrined to the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002, Brown is the only coach in NBA history to lead six different teams -- Nuggets, Pacers, Spurs, Nets, Clippers and the ABA's Carolina Cougars -- to the playoffs and has more than 1,000 victories in the ABA, NBA and college ranks.

Brown spent five seasons at Kansas, winning the NCAA college basketball championship in 1988. He also coached the UCLA Bruins for two seasons. You have to look at this the same way as when the Tigers fired Les Moss and replaced him with Sparky Anderson in 1979. At the time, Moss was 27-26. But the Tigers felt when you have a chance to upgrade with a proven winner, you do it.

You saw it again when the Red Wings replaced Bryan Murray as coach with Scotty Bowman. The Lions, in less of a degree, did it when they first said that Marty Mornhinweg was coming back as coach for his third season. A week or so later, when Steve Mariucci became available, the Lions dumped Mornhinweg and upgraded with Mooch. When you really think about it, it's not that shocking, that outside the box. Apparently, the Pistons felt the same way.

If you think that Carlisle was not retained because the Pistons were swept by the Nets or because Carlisle didn't play Tayshaun Prince during the regular season or that upper management didn't like the offense he ran, you're wrong.

This is clearly a move to upgrade. Brown isn't some Johnny-Come-Lately. In 31 years, Brown's resume is as impressive as any coach out there. The only knock on Brown is that he doesn't stay put long. The six years he spent with the 76ers was his longest stint anywhere.

But at his age, this appears as if it would be his final move. And there are a lot of reasons why Brown would covet this gig. There are no stars. Brown won't have to deal with the superstar problems he had with Allen Iverson in Philly.

It's a young, talented team. Brown prides himself as being a teacher of the game. And the Pistons are in position to make a run at a championship in the next couple of years. What a way to go out, with an NBA title.

Brown will, no doubt, get a five-year contract worth around $25 million. That's the going rate for top coaches in this league.

And the Pistons certainly have that now in Brown.

cmp

05-31-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by vtbub
Really a dumb move.

Real classy.

Almost all moves Dumars has made lately have been called dumb, but ended up being terrific moves.

Trading Stack for Rip.

Drafting Okur.

Drafting Prince.

Singing Billups to what people thought was too much money.

And the next move that people thought was stupid but will really be a genius move, firing Carlisle and hiring Brown.

Carlisle was lucky that Detroit made it to the ECF. We should have lost in the first round because of Carlisle's stubborness. The only reason Prince even started playing was because Curry got in foul trouble and they needed someone in there. Otherwise he would never had played Prince. He wouldn't take Robinson out the lineup even though it is clear that Robinson's best days are behind him and Okur is becoming a very good player.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER

05-31-2003, 01:26 PM

Too bad for Rick ....I bet they would have fired him even if they had gone to the finals .

vtbub

05-31-2003, 03:20 PM

Detroit actually has done some good things, they have taliored the team around their strengths and have succeded.

Hamilton for Stackhouse? You bet.

Prince? In a minute.

This isn't the Lions, a team going nowhere. This was a team on the up, with a tremendous draft pick, who probably would have gone that extra step, especially if the Nets lost kid.

I like Larry Brown. He was great with Kansas, he got a bum deal in Indy, and he helped Iverson become a better player.

Detroit, even if they are the best team in the east, are not in the same league as the West. Coaches learn from their mistakes, and Carlisle being a first time coach I'm sure made a few.

They aren't one or two pieces away from that title puzzle. Along with everybody else in the East, they are probably three or four years away. They should have stuck with Rick.

cmp

05-31-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by vtbub

Detroit, even if they are the best team in the east, are not in the same league as the West. Coaches learn from their mistakes, and Carlisle being a first time coach I'm sure made a few.

They aren't one or two pieces away from that title puzzle. Along with everybody else in the East, they are probably three or four years away. They should have stuck with Rick.

It matters how fast Darko develops. I think the three of fours away is probably about right for Detroit to win a championship. I feel they can beat anyone in the East until then though. If Darko turns into a superstar Detroit can be very very good in a few years. They would be able to compete with anyone.

vtbub

05-31-2003, 03:31 PM

Then why go with a coach who, chances are, won't be there in three years?

cmp

05-31-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by vtbub
Then why go with a coach who, chances are, won't be there in three years?

One of the reasons would be so they can actually develop Darko. Carlisle has not been very good at developing young players. He never played Rodney White, right now we don't know how good he could have been. Tayshaun didn't even play until the playoffs. And him not playing much in the regular season showed in the Nets series. He didn't play Okur much until Rebraca was out with his irregular heartbeat problems.

And, this team was built on defense. But they had absolutely no offense. And now with assistant coach Kevin O'Neill probably leaving to Toronto their went their defense. O'Neill is the one who implented this defense and had this team play the type of defense they did. With him gone what would happen? They needed to go in a different direction and Dumars obviously thought Carlisle wouldn't be able to get the job done.

Schmidty

05-31-2003, 05:25 PM

:(

I trust Joe, but this decision could come back to bite the Pistons in the ass.

jetpunk2000

05-31-2003, 05:25 PM

When I first heard the news I was shocked. Now, it makes a bit more sense to me, but still not 100% sold on it. If Carlisle was really that bad with young players, then you probably won't find a better teacher than Brown. Now wouldn't it be something if Brown backs out of the deal? Given his track record, I don't tihnk that would be out of the question.

cmp

05-31-2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
Now wouldn't it be something if Brown backs out of the deal? Given his track record, I don't tihnk that would be out of the question.

That's the one thing I'm worried about right now. From what I've heard on different websites and on TV he's still deciding between the Pistons and the Rockets. If he goes to the Rockets then my opinion of the Carlisle firing changes completely. Because if your not going to get a guy like Brown to replace Carlisle, why fire him in the first place? If Brown does indeed come to Detroit then I like the move.

But I too trust Joe. The man has shown he knows what he's doing. So I wouldn't expect him to just go and fire a good coach without some good reasons.

jetpunk2000

05-31-2003, 05:34 PM

That's the one thing I'm worried about right now. From what I've heard on different websites and on TV he's still deciding between the Pistons and the Rockets. If he goes to the Rockets then my opinion of the Carlisle firing changes completely. Because if your not going to get a guy like Brown to replace Carlisle, why fire him in the first place? If Brown does indeed come to Detroit then I like the move.

Well, what would be the option if he does end up with Houston? I know you've mentioned O'neill was supposedly the brains behind the operation. Was the whole staff fired, or would he be a back up to Brown?

Dr. Sak

05-31-2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Bishop
Pistons to name Brown as new coach Monday

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0531/1561343.html

I hope Larry Brown rots in hell...that fuckin bastard. I thought he was burnt out from coaching? Fuckin dick!

daedalus

05-31-2003, 05:37 PM

Larry Brown develops young players?

cmp

05-31-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
Well, what would be the option if he does end up with Houston? I know you've mentioned O'neill was supposedly the brains behind the operation. Was the whole staff fired, or would he be a back up to Brown?

I'm not that sure what would happen then. I would love to be able to have O'Neill as the head coach if the Brown deal fell out. I haven't heard any other possible candidates for the job other than Brown though.

ice4277

05-31-2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by gold101
I'm not that sure what would happen then. I would love to be able to have O'Neill as the head coach if the Brown deal fell out. I haven't heard any other possible candidates for the job other than Brown though.

Yeah, but at the same time, it would be pointless to have fired a coach who has done what he has unless you know you are getting a better one in return. Anyways, the Pistons have scheduled a press conference for Monday, at which point they are expected to announce the new coach, so they must have him (whoever it is) lined up already. And if that's the case, I really can't see it being anybody other than Brown.

Schmidty

05-31-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by daedalus
Larry Brown develops young players?

His reputation is that he doesn't, but the fact that he was a great college coach tells me that he must be a very good teacher. That's the most important thing in my opinion.

Whoever comes in, Joe is going to strongly "recommend" that they play the young players, and bring them along smoothly.

I'll be interested to hear what local talk shows (like "The Huge Show") have to say about this whole situation on Monday.

Daimyo

05-31-2003, 06:05 PM

Wow... Maybe the Pacers can finally correct their worst mistake of the last decade, fire 'Zeke and hire Carlisle like they should have done directly when Bird stepped away. Carlisle didn't just turn the Pistons into a dominant team, he was also basically coaching those great Pacer teams when Bird was the figurehead coach.

TroyF

05-31-2003, 06:09 PM

Look, I don't care how the Pistons or their fans want to spin this, it's a classless move.

Had he played Prince in the regular season and lost more games because of it, the same scenario would have played out. If the Pistons thought they were winning because of O'Neal's defense, then you hire O'Neal as head coach.

So Brown is the equivilant of Pat Riley or Phil Jackson is idiotic IMO. Brown's coached in the NBA for 15 years. . . he's been to the finals once. He has zero championship rings at the pro level. Byron Scott has went to double the amount of finals Brown has.

Before you make it sound like I'm insulting Brown, understand I'm not. I'm pointing out simple facts. I'm sure you'll make excuses for Brown. I'm wondering, though, what is the difference between this Detroit team and his teams in Indiana? Spot up shooter is the best offensive force, good but erratic point gaurds, some decent shooters from the wing. Decent, but not great depth.

Wallace is a difference maker on defense, but a liability on offense. All things being equal, Dale Davis gave Indiana their "toughness" and rebounding in the same way Wallace gives Detroit theirs.

How many times did that Indiana team go to the NBA finals under Brown? 0. None. Zippo. Nada. You get the point.

Maybe Brown stays long enough in Detroit to make a difference. Maybe Darko becomes the best big man in the history of the game and Detroit wins it all next year.

I think what will end up happening, is that you'll find out this team was overacheiving as it was. That they'll be hard pressed to equal last year's win total or trip to the conference finals with ANY head coach. Good luck Larry.

TroyF

jetpunk2000

05-31-2003, 06:38 PM

So Brown is the equivilant of Pat Riley or Phil Jackson is idiotic IMO

I'm not trying to turn this into a "Phil Jackson has never coached a down on its luck team thread" but Phil Jackson has never coached a team down on its luck. I would definitely consider Brown to be the equivalent of Jackson. I honestly believe if Brown had Jordan and Pippen and Kobe and Shaq he'd have 9 titles as well. When Phil turns around a few organizations from scratch or at least attempts it, then I think you could accurately rate his coaching ability.

tucker342

05-31-2003, 07:30 PM

I don't think Brown would have been able to keep the peace in LA. He wouldn't have 9 titles...

TroyF

05-31-2003, 07:52 PM

Brown wouldn't have had the patience to stay in LA or Chicago.

Just curious, how many rings do Shaq, Kobe, MJ, and Pippen have WITHOUT Phil Jackson? That's right, none.

I doubt that Brown would have 9 titles. I doubt he'd have had half that many.

TroyF

cmp

05-31-2003, 08:17 PM

Now it looks like Carlisle could be heading out West to coach Portland. I'll be interested to see what he can do with a group of players who seem like they are much more talented then Detroit's. Maybe somehow Carlisle can turn that group around and put them in the Finals next year. Unlikely but he did a job with Detroit. A Pistons/Blazers Finals in the next few years could be interesting.

jetpunk2000

05-31-2003, 08:33 PM

Just curious, how many rings do Shaq, Kobe, MJ, and Pippen have WITHOUT Phil Jackson? That's right, none.

I sense some hostility here.

You got me on that one, they haven't. BUT he also has stepped into the situations at the right times. In Chicago they had been on the verge for a couple of years, but just couldn't get past Detroit. Pippen was in his fourth year and just becoming the player he was going to be for the next decade. When he got to LA, Kobe was entering his fourth year and was just about to come into his own. I'm not trying to downplay what he has done. 9 titles for anybody is incredible in this day and age, no matter how he gets them. But that being said, I would like to see him coach a team without two big named superstars at the same time. Last time he had that MJ had to bail him out midseason. I just like to take my licks at the man, being a Knicks fan. It's about the only joy i can get lately.

jetpunk2000

05-31-2003, 08:36 PM

Now it looks like Carlisle could be heading out West to coach Portland

Didn't Portland just deny Philly permission to talk to Cheeks? That'd be messed up if they did that and then turn around and whack the guy. Hopefully if they are gonna do it, they'll give Cheeks the respect to at least get the Philly job.

cmp

05-31-2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
Didn't Portland just deny Philly permission to talk to Cheeks? That'd be messed up if they did that and then turn around and whack the guy. Hopefully if they are gonna do it, they'll give Cheeks the respect to at least get the Philly job.

Here's the article. http://www.detnews.com/2003/pistons/0305/31/pistons-179401.htm

Apparently they've given Cheeks permission now to speak with Philly.

Also, maybe people shouldn't rush to judgement on Dumars and his "classless" move by firing Carlisle. There might be a little more to the story then you all think.

Daimyo

05-31-2003, 08:54 PM

Brown should go to Houston. I think he'd be a much better fit there than in Detroit. I bet he's just happy to go anywhere that doesn't have Iverson.

vtbub

05-31-2003, 09:15 PM

I read the article that gold linked, and I still think that the move was utterly classless. Yes, it seems that the Detroit press is giddy, but as a whole things are so bad there that there isn't much to be giddy about.

Hey, if Carlisle got off to a rocky start next season, at least that would have given Dumars some cover for canning him. Granted, Brown would not have been available, but there are some exceptional coaches currently unemployed who could fill that role.

The really amazing thing is that this musical chairs is not bringing in any new coaches, if Carlisle suckedd in Detroit, why would he do any better in Portland. It really makes NO sense.

Isiah Thomas kept his job and Rick Carlisle didn't? Even too strange for Groovy Walton.

TroyF

05-31-2003, 09:46 PM

No hostility, just facts. Tell me how different it is if Brown leads the Pistons to the championship this year after Carslile gave the the playoff experience to help get them there?

Sorry, Brown has had talent in the past. As I said, he had more talent in Indiana IMO, and he never led them to the place Detroit thinks he's going to take them. Here's an article with a different spin:

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/bucher_ric/1561441.html

TroyF

ice4277

05-31-2003, 09:53 PM

Ok, Troy, some fair points in this article, but for me, this is the kicker about the whole thing, from the same article:

"As for Brown succeeding Carlisle, well, there's no reason he shouldn't be more successful"

And there it is. Carlisle did a good job but they went after somebody who they feel could do a better job. Carlisle, as I stated earlier, never has seemed to me like the guy who could take them to the next level, and a lot of things in the Nets series kind of pointed that out to me. Carlisle did well to get the team the number of wins he did, but I think Brown will do a better job. You don't. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens on the court.

cmp

05-31-2003, 10:01 PM

This almost reminds of the situation in the NFL with Tampa. Tony Dungy took a bad team and made them good. But he wasn't the guy who would be able to take them over the hump so they got rid of him and got Gruden and won a championship. Maybe Detroit's doing the same here in the NBA.

GrantDawg

05-31-2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by gold101
This almost reminds of the situation in the NFL with Tampa. Tony Dungy took a bad team and made them good. But he wasn't the guy who would be able to take them over the hump so they got rid of him and got Gruden and won a championship. Maybe Detroit's doing the same here in the NBA.

Yes, but they at least gave him a few seasons. This guy had two! And he over-achieved in both! If this was a computer game that did this to you, you'd be pissed.

cmp

05-31-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
If this was a computer game that did this to you, you'd be pissed.

Probably. I'm just gonna make until the season to make judgements on the move though. It could work out terrificly for Detroit, but it could backfire. So far Dumars has showed he knows what he's doing, I'm gonna trust him on this one.

cmp

05-31-2003, 11:54 PM

Here's an article from the Detroit Free Press. Maybe people can better understand why he was fired now.

BY DREW SHARP
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

The only thing more surreal than Saturday's impromptu press conference announcing the apparently amicable divorce between Rick Carlisle and the Pistons was the 48 hours leading up to it.

``Surreal isn't the word for it,'' said Pistons team president Joe Dumars. ``It goes beyond unbelievable when trying to describe everything that' s happened to get us to this point.''

Larry Brown, the recent Philadelphia 76ers ex, is coming to Detroit. Carlisle may very well wind up in Cleveland. And a city coming off the euphoria of its first Eastern Conference finals appearance in 12 years tries to understand how a coach who won 100 games faster than any of his predecessors in this franchise's history could fall into disfavor with management so decisively.

``This was the best course for everyone involved,'' said Dumars. ``I can't really go into any specifics as to why this happened. It was just agreed that it was in everyone's best interests that we all move on and move forward.''

There were a myriad of irreconcilable differences that led up to this mutual separation, but the bottom line is that Carlisle alienated far too many people within the Pistons' organization with his frequent churlish behavior and obstinate coaching approach.

He ticked off the wrong people.

He treated certain factions of the organization with utter disrespect. He rejected overtures from practically everyone in the organization aimed at improving his communication skills, particularly in regard to younger players.

Dumars will understandably take the hit from the same critics who for the last month blasted the possibility that Carlisle's status could be in jeopardy as ridiculous and irresponsible. That's his job as the front man for this organization, but parting company with Carlisle was a decision endorsed by everyone within the Pistons' basketball brain trust from top to bottom.

Dumars had decided not to extend Carlisle's original three-year contract, creating a situation where Carlisle could be interpreted as a lame duck next season. He wasn't sure if Carlisle could ditch the stubbornness and surliness that got him into this predicament, but he initially thought that Carlisle had earned the chance to prove that he learned the error of his ways.

But Thursday, it was determined that Carlisle wouldn't get that chance. Too many bridges had been burned, too many sensibilities had been offended, too many concerns remained. The Pistons contacted Brown, who was just days removed from the Philadelphia job, through back channels, gauging his interest in the job, if any.

Dumars wouldn't have made a final decision on Carlisle unless he was certain that Brown was his guaranteed successor. According to league sources, Brown agreed to take the Pistons' job Friday afternoon at a salary that could surpass $5 million annually for five years.

Carlisle was notified of the team's decision Friday evening at his home in South Carolina. He later leaked word of his firing to ESPN.com's NBA reporter, Ric Bucher, who reported it early Saturday morning, sending the Pistons into a frenzy of premature denials.

The original plan called for only Dumars to address the media, but Carlisle asked to go out with Dumars, creating a bizarre scene in which the man who did the firing looked more uncomfortable than the man fired.

This was a Carlisle that was rarely seen -- engaging, humorous and self-effacing. Had he better communicated that side of himself to his employers and players, he might not have found himself in this position. Perhaps he was too insecure as a first-time head coach to let people see that side of him, but it was refreshing, although unfortunately for him, it came too late to save him.

But it may help him land his next job.

Carlisle was auditioning for his next employer.

He knew the press conference would be covered live nationally on ESPN and the sight of he and Dumars sitting side-by-side and showering each other with praise might ease fears of other general managers.

It will help Carlisle only if he has indeed learned his lesson.

It doesn't matter how many regular season games are won or division championship banners are raised, if you are branded as acting disrespectful to people in the organization and unwilling to change, you are going to create problems.

And, in this case, it created problems that Carlisle couldn't overcome.

TroyF

06-01-2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by ice4277
Ok, Troy, some fair points in this article, but for me, this is the kicker about the whole thing, from the same article:

"As for Brown succeeding Carlisle, well, there's no reason he shouldn't be more successful"

And there it is. Carlisle did a good job but they went after somebody who they feel could do a better job. Carlisle, as I stated earlier, never has seemed to me like the guy who could take them to the next level, and a lot of things in the Nets series kind of pointed that out to me. Carlisle did well to get the team the number of wins he did, but I think Brown will do a better job. You don't. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens on the court.

I think you miss the point of the entire article. Of course Brown should be more successful. ANY coach should be more successful if you assume the team will improve from this year after another year of playoff experience.

I'll make a prediction right now. Detroit will not get as deep into the post season in the next two years. Brown will be gone before they get to the NBA finals.

As for the explanations, it's spin, period. The Pistons have their spin, the coach and his friends will have theirs. As there are two sides to the story, the real reason probably lies somewhere in the middle. I hope Brown stiffs Dumars and signs with the Rockets. It would serve the guy right after doing things this way.

It's REALLY hard to cheer for a team that does something like this. (that is, if you aren't living in the city and aren't already a bigtime fan)

Gold,

Comparing Dungy to Carlisle is a joke. As was said by the earlier poster, Dungy had 7 years in Tampa. Dungy also clearly had the talent to win the Super Bowl. I don't think anyone truly believes Detroit's talent level is comparable to any of the top 7-9 teams in basketball. They've overachieved the past couple of years. A coaching change won't make them overacheive 10 games more. . . it'll more likely drop them to reality and make them take a step back.

We'll see who's right. Joe D's did a good job building the team. . . He'll have to live with the ramifications of this decision for a long time. He'd better hope the memories are good.

TroyF

cmp

06-01-2003, 12:32 AM

We'll see. People have been critizing the Pistons for the past two years saying we dont have enough talent. Billups, Rip, Wallace, Okur, Prince, Darko, Corliss, Cliffy and the others will hopefully continue to prove the critics wrong.

vex

06-01-2003, 02:02 AM

What coach proved the critics wrong though?

cmp

06-01-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by vexroid
What coach proved the critics wrong though?

Yea, Carlisle was the coach. So what? The players on the Pistons team did not want Carlisle as there coach any longer. They were sick of his coaching tactics and his philosophy. His rotations were horrible, he was very inconsistent in who he would play. Some players didn't know whether or not they would play one night even though the night before they came off the bench and scored 10 points.

Most of you do not follow Pistons basketball very closely. You don't know the whole story. A Detroit reporter interviewed a Pistons player who's name was not announcer who said that he was relieved that Carlisle was gone. It sure seems like the players didn't want him anymore. What good is having a coach that the players don't respect and don't want to play for?

Also, he alienated many people in the front office. Rick and the Front Office did not get along at all. How can you keep a guy who can't get along with the people making all the decisions in the franchise?

vex

06-01-2003, 09:14 AM

Did he win? It doesn't really matter who you play, as long as you win.

cmp

06-01-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by vexroid
Did he win? It doesn't really matter who you play, as long as you win.

If the players are sick of him and want someone new that it does matter. They basically quit on him in the Orlando series. It took Ben Wallace to come out in the media and motivate his teammates. They did not want to play for him any longer.

DeToxRox

06-01-2003, 10:23 AM

Alright, take this for what its worth, a rumor.

My dads friend works closely with the Detroit Pistons organization. He was talking to a source in the front office after he heard Rick was fired, and the source said this.

"If Rick Carlisle was brought back, Ben Wallace was going to demand a trade."

Now, I cannot varify this, so yeah, but I am trying to shead some light on the whole thing.

And since the owner is the one who had him fired, it only makes sense, as he would want to keep our marquee player happy.

If this is the case, I say, bye bye Ricky, go alienate Lebron now.

cmp

06-01-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
Alright, take this for what its worth, a rumor.

My dads friend works closely with the Detroit Pistons organization. He was talking to a source in the front office after he heard Rick was fired, and the source said this.

"If Rick Carlisle was brought back, Ben Wallace was going to demand a trade."

Now, I cannot varify this, so yeah, but I am trying to shead some light on the whole thing.

And since the owner is the one who had him fired, it only makes sense, as he would want to keep our marquee player happy.

If this is the case, I say, bye bye Ricky, go alienate Lebron now.

This wouldn't surprise me at all. I've heard things like Wallace hasn't talked to Carlisle in 3 months. That seems a little unrealistic but I believe it shows the kind of division the players had formed from Carlisle.

Joe Dumars didn't just all of a sudden decide to fire Carlisle. It was a thing that had been going on for a while. Don't blast Joe and this "classless" organization when you don't know the whole story.

DeToxRox

06-01-2003, 11:39 AM

one more thing..

..Calling Dumars classless is just moronic. I mean, he does have the NBA Humanatarian Award named after him.

cmp

06-01-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
one more thing..

..Calling Dumars classless is just moronic. I mean, he does have the NBA Humanatarian Award named after him.

And if Dumars is such a classless person like people have said and firing Carlisle was one of the worst things he could have done then why would Carlisle hold a news conference with him? If Dumars was so classless I don't believe Carlisle would have held a press conference with him.

ISiddiqui

06-01-2003, 12:36 PM

Calling Dumars classless is just moronic. I mean, he does have the NBA Humanatarian Award named after him.

It doesn't mean this move is not classless. A young coach with such an overachieving record and you dump him for some other guy? Even if he was an ass, you don't do that! You give him a few years to see if he can get over the hump, and if he can't THEN you fire him. That's what they did with Dungy in Tampa. That's what they did with Showwalter with the Yankees. But maybe he CAN get the team to the top (maybe he's a young Phil Jackson), and you just canned him.

cmp

06-01-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
It doesn't mean this move is not classless. A young coach with such an overachieving record and you dump him for some other guy? Even if he was an ass, you don't do that! You give him a few years to see if he can get over the hump, and if he can't THEN you fire him. That's what they did with Dungy in Tampa. That's what they did with Showwalter with the Yankees. But maybe he CAN get the team to the top (maybe he's a young Phil Jackson), and you just canned him.

If we wait around to see if he can get over the hump we might put ourselves back a few years when we eventually fire him anyway. And plus, I'd much rather keep Ben Wallace on the team then keep a coach.

cmp

06-01-2003, 01:48 PM

The players seem to agree with this move. It seems like Detroit did the right thing.

Chucky Atkins, who wasn't particularly pleased with his significantly reduced role this season, said Carlisle's firing after so much success took a lot of courage on management's part.

"This is all about us getting to a higher level," Atkins said. "It takes a lot of guts to fire a man who has won as many games as Rick did here in only a couple years. But we're trying to get to the NBA Finals. We can't get there playing the way we were under Rick."

ISiddiqui

06-01-2003, 02:15 PM

*sigh*

I see you've already bought into the so-called 'reason' that the Pistons will never win under Carlisle (Hey, but if it makes you feel better about the classless move). A 2nd year coach, back to back 50 win seasons, brought his team, which isn't as talented as the other top teams in the East, to the Eastern Conference Finals. What is to say that Brown is a better coach than Carlisle? Right now, if I was a GM for a team, I'd probably take Carlisle over Brown.

I think the Pistons did the wrong thing, entirely. And definetly showed themselves to lack class.

Furthermore, can you possibly explain me the reason they hired a coach to get them to win the Finals who hasn't won it before, with teams more talented than the one he is getting now (the Sixers for example)?

cmp

06-01-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui

Furthermore, can you possibly explain me the reason they hired a coach to get them to win the Finals who hasn't won it before, with teams more talented than the one he is getting now (the Sixers for example)?

Great argument. He hasn't won the Finals before. Ok then, let's just go out and get us a coach who has won the Finals before. Let's see, who is there. Only Phil Jackson, Pat Riley and Greg Popovich come to mind right now. Only 3 coaches in the NBA have won a title. And we're not gonna get anyone of those three.

vtbub

06-01-2003, 02:42 PM

And if the players fire their coaches, they will never win a title.

JeeberD

06-01-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by gold101
Great argument. He hasn't won the Finals before. Ok then, let's just go out and get us a coach who has won the Finals before. Let's see, who is there. Only Phil Jackson, Pat Riley and Greg Popovich come to mind right now. Only 3 coaches in the NBA have won a title. And we're not gonna get anyone of those three.

Rudy T!!!!

And he's won twice as many as Pop... :)

vex

06-01-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by gold101
The players seem to agree with this move. It seems like Detroit did the right thing.

Chucky Atkins, who wasn't particularly pleased with his significantly reduced role this season, said Carlisle's firing after so much success took a lot of courage on management's part.

"This is all about us getting to a higher level," Atkins said. "It takes a lot of guts to fire a man who has won as many games as Rick did here in only a couple years. But we're trying to get to the NBA Finals. We can't get there playing the way we were under Rick."

How many of these players have played in the Finals, huh? How would they know what it takes? They don't.

DeToxRox

06-01-2003, 03:19 PM

And I'd rather have a team to play 100% then a coach who has a team of guys going half assed.

Glass is half empty, glass is half full.

vtbub

06-01-2003, 03:22 PM

That's the thing, they got this coach fired. If Joe Blow coaches in a way they don't like, they'll get him fired to.

Until Detroit learns it's all about we instead of all about me, their tee times will be reserved in May.

Doesn't Carlisle have two rings from his Celtic days?

vex

06-01-2003, 03:23 PM

What are you going to say if Brown clashes with Wallace the same as he did Iverson?

cmp

06-01-2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by vtbub

Doesn't Carlisle have two rings from his Celtic days?

Did he coach the Celtics to those titles? No.

vex

06-01-2003, 03:27 PM

He was there, though.

cmp

06-01-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by vexroid
He was there, though.

So that makes him such a better coach?

vtbub

06-01-2003, 03:30 PM

Start reading the other post insteads of following blindly what you want to read.

His jackass players made a jackass comment, "He don't have blah blah blah..."

He's got the rings and THEY DON'T, that's why he's the coach and New Jersey is in the finals.

cmp

06-01-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by vtbub
Start reading the other post insteads of following blindly what you want to read.

His jackass players made a jackass comment, "He don't have blah blah blah..."

He's got the rings and THEY DON'T, that's why he's the coach and New Jersey is in the finals.

Wow, he won a ring while he sat the bench and watched as Larry Bird led the Celtics to the title. That doesn't mean shit. And I'll agree with his own players about the situation much more then I'll agree with what you say about the situation.

Exactly how many Detroit games did you watch this year? You don't understand that this team is actually better then people think. If Carlisle would have played Prince and Okur more and Curry and Robinson less Detroit would have been better. Carlisle is a good coach, not great. He'll never be better than a good coach. I hope he goes to Portland ,we'll see how quickly the players turn on him.

Detroit will be a much better team without Carlisle. Billups will be better, Rip will be better, Okur will be much better, Ben will be better, Prince will be better, Darko's gonna be good and the bench will be a lot better because they'll actually know if there gonna play from night to night.

ISiddiqui

06-01-2003, 09:06 PM

He hasn't won the Finals before. Ok then, let's just go out and get us a coach who has won the Finals before.

If you can't get a coach who hasn't won in the finals before, then what is the point of getting a coach to get to the 'next level', ie a championship? It makes little sense.

Carlisle was a great coach and was shoved out the door because something shinyer was in the window. That new coach, Brown, might NOT be as good under the hood and he hasn't proven that he really is. You talk about Dungy, that's what Brown is! A coach that is good at getting teams to a high level, but he can't get the team above the hump... yet that is what he is being asked to do at Detroit!

It was still a classless move, however... no matter what happens.

cmp

06-01-2003, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui

It was still a classless move, however... no matter what happens.

No, this wasn't a classless move. Classless was the way Rick Carlisle treated his players, Pistons management, Pistons staff members and others in the organization. He brought this upon himself.

ISiddiqui

06-01-2003, 09:26 PM

No, this wasn't a classless move.

Yes this was a classless move. A coach you hired led your team to a SURPRISING 50 win season, not once, but twice! And even to the Eastern Conference Finals and you dump him for some other guy? I don't care how bad he was to others in the organization, you don't dump a coach like that.

CLASSLESS! No matter how you spin it.

Schmidty

06-01-2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by gold101
No, this wasn't a classless move. Classless was the way Rick Carlisle treated his players, Pistons management, Pistons staff members and others in the organization. He brought this upon himself.

Bingo.

I follow the Pistons religiously, and I've been hearing horror stories about him since the beginning of his time in Detroit. People outside of the situation are poorly informed and are going to draw the conclusion that the move was classless. Nothing could be further from the truth. Joe Dumars is the embodiment of class, and would have never made this move lightly or without purpose. There are many things that were going on behind the scenes that contributed to the firing.

Joe Dumars did what he thought was in the best interest of the organization and I trust him.

You guys can say what you want. It doesn't matter to me because I know the truth.

cmp

06-01-2003, 09:39 PM

Here is part of an article telling of some of the things Carlisle has done. Tell me how a guy like this is good for an organization?

But that doesn't stop the stories. Stories that Carlisle, last year, shoved a senior Pistons executive as he tried to high-five the players. Tales about Carlisle yelling at secretaries, or snapping at the medical staff, or ripping on assorted personnel, young and old, in front of other people. Maybe he didn't do all these things. Maybe he did but didn't realize how he came across. Doesn't matter. In Bill Davidson's world there is loyalty and there is proper respect, and you don't keep your job without them.

Remember, Davidson joined his uncle's glass company in the 1950s and he built it into an enterprise worth nearly $4 billion. You don't do that by brooking dissent. Nobody - nobody - disrespects Davidson's staff or loyal employees.

Carlisle, a smart and talented coach, apparently felt that being smart and talented would be enough. Players disagreed. Some never cared for him, since he could stand in an elevator with them and not even strike up a conversation.

"That was always a difficult thing," admitted guard Chucky Atkins, "he didn't speak to a lot of people. When you treat people bad, it comes back to haunt you. If you can't talk to your coach, who can you talk to?"

oykib

06-01-2003, 10:05 PM

Well... if the stories are true about him being a dick, then I have to take back what I said. Perhaps it was the best thing to do. But it's still a black mark on the organization unless Brown takes them to the finals in the next few years.

06-02-2003, 03:31 AM

this wasnt joe d's move.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5992778.htm

ive heard the stories about how carlisle was with people around the organization, but the man brought WINS.

am i the only one in michigan that hates larry brown and dislikes this move?

cmp

06-02-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by FF

ive heard the stories about how carlisle was with people around the organization, but the man brought WINS.

am i the only one in michigan that hates larry brown and dislikes this move?

So are you condoning his actions just because he brought us some wins? Is that what we're coming to in America. That you can be an ass to anyone you want, you can disrepect your fellow employees and humiliate them but as long as you do a good job everyone's all right?

Larry Brown

06-02-2003, 05:23 PM

I am truly honored to be the next head coach of the Detroit Pistons. I believe Rick did a fine job. He may have made mistakes in his tenture there, only becuase he is a intense individual. However, I plan to bring this team to the next level, and I plan on us having a terrific year!

P.S. Im sure Rick will make a great head coach somewhere, and you should all be proud of what Rick did to this team.

ISiddiqui

06-02-2003, 05:45 PM

So are you condoning his actions just because he brought us some wins? Is that what we're coming to in America. That you can be an ass to anyone you want, you can disrepect your fellow employees and humiliate them but as long as you do a good job everyone's all right?

Um... YEAH! His job is to WIN GAMES! If you do your job no one should care about 'disrespecting fellow employees'.

cmp

06-02-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Um... YEAH! His job is to WIN GAMES! If you do your job no one should care about 'disrespecting fellow employees'.

Well then guess some people like those in the Pistons organization have much more class then you and Carlisle. Detroit showed class by getting rid of Carlisle. It takes an organization with a great deal of class to get rid of a coach like Carlisle because of the things he did. Detroit showed they are a very classy organization by doing this, they won't allow people to disrespect whoever they want and get away with it.

ISiddiqui

06-02-2003, 06:00 PM

Well then guess some people like those in the Pistons organization have much more class then you and Carlisle. Detroit showed class by getting rid of Carlisle. It takes an organization with a great deal of class to get rid of a coach like Carlisle because of the things he did. Detroit showed they are a very classy organization by doing this, they won't allow people to disrespect whoever they want and get away with it.

:rolleyes: Class is keeping a guy for doing what he was supposed to under his contract. It isn't firing a guy for doing what he was hired to do, simply because you found someone else. Now, if Carlisle's contract was up, then fine, but THEY FIRED HIM FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO! That's totally 100% classless.

Larry Brown

06-02-2003, 06:08 PM

Not agreeing with one another is part of life. I know this, believe me!!! But Rick is a good person, he got let go!!! I am now the coach, I plan to bring this team to greatness, end of story. There really is no need to keep fighting about why Rick was let go. No one here knows the real reason. Rick is a classy individual, as is the Detroit Pistons oraganization. It simply was two people wanting to go in different directions.

Joe also is taking a lot of heat from this "move" he made, the fact is however, Joe did not make this move, Bill was the person who thought best that Rick and the organization split ways. And I thank him for giving me the opportunity.

vtbub

06-02-2003, 06:12 PM

Nice to meet you Mr. Brown.

Just between you and me, was Iverson an asshat?

cmp

06-02-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
:rolleyes: Class is keeping a guy for doing what he was supposed to under his contract. It isn't firing a guy for doing what he was hired to do, simply because you found someone else. Now, if Carlisle's contract was up, then fine, but THEY FIRED HIM FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO! That's totally 100% classless.

Carlisle has had this coming for a while. His players didn't respect him and when this happens things can't be good. Carlisle wasn't just fired because Larry Brown became available. There had been talk about this for a while. Just a few weeks ago during the Orlando series it was talked about that he could be on his way out. His assistants knew it also, they told him that if he didn't change he would be out. Winning 100 games in two seasons isn't something terribly special. Doug Collins won more his first two years in Detroit, does that make him a great coach?

Larry Brown

06-02-2003, 06:18 PM

Well vtub, if I knew what an asshat was i could tell you. Iverson is a great player, with a great heart, sometimes though, we didn't agree, and he made some questionable decisions.

vtbub

06-02-2003, 06:22 PM

Dude, whoever you are, you're good.

ISiddiqui

06-02-2003, 06:35 PM

His players didn't respect him and when this happens things can't be good. Carlisle wasn't just fired because Larry Brown became available.

Since the owner fired him what do the players have to do with anything? There have been plenty of successful managers who's players didn't 'respect' him as a person (I bet they did respect him as a coach). That's because the team stuck by the guy.

And are you really telling me that they'd fire this guy only to replace him with someone of a lesser coaching quality? Are you nuts?! If Brown wasn't available, I 100% guarentee Carlisle would still be coaching the Pistons. Also, if the Pistons won the Championship, Carlisle would still be there (to say otherwise is silly), which indicates to me that it wasn't just about the 'disrespect'.

There had been talk about this for a while. Just a few weeks ago during the Orlando series it was talked about that he could be on his way out. His assistants knew it also, they told him that if he didn't change he would be out.

If he lost in the first round after being up 3-1 when he had the #1 team, almost any coach would be fired. That doesn't mean jack.

Winning 100 games in two seasons isn't something terribly special.

With an Eastern Conference team that really isn't really in the top 3 in talent in that conference? By a first time coach? It's pretty damned special. Any other coach in the league that won 100 games in his first two seasons would not be fired after the 2nd.