Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[SirFozzie]

File under "Yup, that's Concacaf"


Honduras were supposed to have a friendly against Grenada over the weekend in Louisiana, but Honduras players forced their federation to call it off because of an unsafe field and bad accommodations.

International soccer match cancelled, officials say | Sports | theadvocate.com (https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/international-soccer-match-cancelled-officials-say/article_ef276c62-0e03-11ee-bc44-6f2ed68d04ac.html)

I was going to joke they should just treat it like a field in Grenada but yeah, it looks pretty much like a high school "stadium" and probably unsafe/unproductive to play on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was going to joke they should just treat it like a field in Grenada but yeah, it looks pretty much like a high school "stadium" and probably unsafe/unproductive to play on.

Try 53 year old city rec department stadium.

(though significant structural renovations did save if from collapse back in 2018)

[SirFozzie]

So, anyone else pro BJ

Guys, I know we're getting old and all that, but I'm surprised that we haven't had at least ONE person say "I've always been Pro BJ"..

we may be growing UP as well as old.

[miami_fan]

I am guessing the issue with the Berhalter rehire is that everyone is okay with the hire as opposed to be excited it. I understand that. I just don't know who was supposed to be the exciting hire. Jessie Marsch? Patrick Viera? Would anyone be excited by either one of those guys?

Everything I have heard from the new sporting director Matt Crocker makes sense to me. Say what you want about the English national team winning or not winning championships, I think we all would like to see our U.S. version of England DNA. It sounds simple but I don't think any of us can say for sure where US Soccer stands on any of the tenets of England DNA.

The programme is designed for England’s youth teams from under-15s to under-21s and is the starting point for the FA’s elite player development. It is split into five parts: ‘who we are’; ‘how we play’; ‘the future England player’; ‘how we coach’; and ‘how we support the process’.

I watched some of the U20 World Cup last month and the U20 team played nothing like the senior team played last night. Yes, they don't have a Balogun, Reyna or Pulisic on the U20 squad but still. It would be cool to have a new coach to take the team to the next level tactically. I think figuring out and developing our DNA must come first. We are no longer just a team of try hards with one or two technically gifted players. We aren't Argentina but we have players that can play a more diverse game on the international level. Berhalter is not incompetent. He meets the minimum standard. For me, that is good enough as we go about building the entire program.

[flere-imsaho]

Guys, I know we're getting old and all that, but I'm surprised that we haven't had at least ONE person say "I've always been Pro BJ"..

I thought about it, but then got called away from the computer to deal with another kid thing.

[Ghost Econ]

Well I, for one, am declaring it the Summer of BJ

[miami_fan]

Well this is interesting.

Saudi Arabia can help Chelsea solve headache — but talks raise more questions than answers | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/chelsea-saudi-arabia-pif-clearlake-capital-b2360204.html)

The key paragraphs for this post.

Interest in Neymar and David De Gea is now well known, but representatives are also looking at Riyad Mahrez and Bernardo Silva, and there are offers for a series of Chelsea players. Among them are N’Golo Kante, Edouard Mendy, Romelu Lukaku, Kalidou Koulibaly, Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang and Hakim Ziyech.

Now, a solution has suddenly presented itself. Chelsea could clear a lot of players for big money, allowing Mauricio Pochettino a much cleaner slate to start working with.

It has raised a lot of chatter within the game as well as outside. Football officials have privately pointed to the strong relationship between Chelsea majority owners Clearlake and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund [PIF], who have billions of pounds worth of assets managed by the American firm.

Let's see now. According to Transfernarkt, here are what are these Chelsea players are worth in Euros.

Edouard Mendy- 18M
Romelu Lukaku- 40M
Kalidou Koulibaly- 25M
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang- 7M
Hakim Ziyech- 18M

Of course they are actually worth what someone is willing to pay. So is it possible for a Saudi club to buy Lukaku for say 100 million Euros which would a long way in helping Chelsea deal with FFP and then loan him out to another club in Europe where broadcasters have to constantly remind us that he is on loan from Al Nassr FC?

[bhlloy]

This is done quite regularly on a smaller scale by owners who have interests in multiple countries and teams, but at this scale I have no idea that FIFA and UEFA will be all over it to protect the integrity…. I almost made it through that sentence with a straight face.

Yeah, this is the obvious logical next step of where this has all been heading for a while. All legal and well within FFP.

[sovereignstar v2]

USA is 'selected as host of new-look 2025 Club World Cup... with Chelsea, Man City and more to play' | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12227613/USA-selected-host-new-look-2025-Club-World-Cup-Chelsea-Man-City-play.html)

[Ghost Econ]

Hope FM can fix the Club World Cup fatigue bug by then.

[RainMaker]

I know this is the B team or whatever but Jordan Morris is brutal.

[MIJB#19]

What a missed opportunity in the Premier League to make Chelsea get stuck with their overload of expensive players and fail Financial Fair Play rules. Apparently solidarity is a thing amongst the elitist clubs, Arsenal and Manchester City felt the need to throw Chelsea a bone or two, or more like a 100 million contribution for a pair of excess players.

[sovereignstar v2]

It's lol or rolleyes. I'll go with lol today

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[sovereignstar v2]

Kovacic will fit City like a glove and won't need any bedding in. Very astute signing.

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[cartman]

that poor St. Kitts player that took a laser shot to the nuts last night.

https://vxtwitter.com/FOXSoccer/status/1674264008977702912?s=20

[SirFozzie]

Mexico just got FM'd in real life in the Gold Cup tonight.

For those who don't know what that means, let me lay out the stats.

Posession: Mexico had 76% of the ball, to 24% for Qatar
Shots? Mexico out Shot Qatar 25-1
Corners? 7 for Mexico, none for Qatar
Passes Completed? 580 for Mexico, 127 for Qatar.

Final Score: Qatar 1, Mexico 0.

If that happened to me in FM, the computer would have gone right out the window.

[MIJB#19]

What a missed opportunity in the Premier League to make Chelsea get stuck with their overload of expensive players and fail Financial Fair Play rules. Apparently solidarity is a thing amongst the elitist clubs, Arsenal and Manchester City felt the need to throw Chelsea a bone or two, or more like a 100 million contribution for a pair of excess players.And now Manchester United jumps in on this non-sense. C'mon now, make Chelsea bleed for their unsportsmanlike behaviour on the transfer market and stop donating.

[sovereignstar v2]

I got nothing. Mount is terrible.

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[cartman]

Mexico just got FM'd in real life in the Gold Cup tonight.

For those who don't know what that means, let me lay out the stats.

Posession: Mexico had 76% of the ball, to 24% for Qatar
Shots? Mexico out Shot Qatar 25-1
Corners? 7 for Mexico, none for Qatar
Passes Completed? 580 for Mexico, 127 for Qatar.

Final Score: Qatar 1, Mexico 0.

If that happened to me in FM, the computer would have gone right out the window.

That was crazy. The expected goals (xG) for Mexico was 2.3 and for Qatar it was 0.05.

[flere-imsaho]

And now Manchester United jumps in on this non-sense. C'mon now, make Chelsea bleed for their unsportsmanlike behaviour on the transfer market and stop donating.

You're asking a lot of Man Utd, given their post-Ferguson/Gill track record:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H2tkpGwg6O8/X5bdBZj9sBI/AAAAAAAAJQA/a1lOQ32Zg0oqzzzNkKe-nHGgq_5CKb_SACLcBGAsYHQ/s720/FB_IMG_1603708699376.jpg

[SirFozzie]

One of my friends suggested a pool for the upcoming EPL season, and I actually was interested in the concept.


The Lineal Premier League Championship.


In the suggestion, either the winner of the Community Shield or the first Premier League game to finish becomes the inaugural (and mythical) Premier League Champion. Then, every Premier League match they play after that is for the title. Title only changes hands on a loss (ie, Champions Advantage), and the new champion starts defending the title in their next match


If gambling for cash: Everyone throws in $5, gets a randomly selected team, winner-takes-all ($100 if all 20 teams are assigned).

[flere-imsaho]

I like that and would be in.

[CarterNMA]

Chelsea v. Wrexham on ESPN & ESPN+ in 9 minutes!!!

[SirFozzie]

Women's World Cup underway, first game, first huge upset. Well done Black Ferns.

[miami_fan]

Women's World Cup underway, first game, first huge upset. Well done Black Ferns.

And their first WWC win ever!

Given my current sleep schedule, I have a good chance of seeing/hearing most of these games live. Yeah insomnia.:banghead:

[SirFozzie]

I went to bed at 2 am. I fell asleep shortly around 7. that should tell you my sleep status.

I had the game on for a couple hours of it., but...

[miami_fan]

Since we are already a goal in, how many goals does the USWNT have to be up by before they are supposed to emulate that famous West Germany-Austria match from the World Cup?

I don't expect this match to get to double digits but just in case...

[sovereignstar v2]

Brutal penalty kick by Morgan

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[Ksyrup]

How few goals do we have to score for this to be a disappointment?

[RainMaker]

I don't think Vietnam will even register a shot but the US looks pretty bad. With that said they'll probably score 8 goals in the 2nd half.

[RainMaker]

Brutal penalty kick by Morgan

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Then faking an injury out of embarrassment.

[SirFozzie]

I thought the writers were all on strike.


Because honestly, if you were writing up the story of Messi's transfer to the US, this is how it would end.

https://twitter.com/rogbennett/status/1682576228891480064

[Racer]

Sophia Smith showed tonight why she has been the best player in the NWSL the last two years and is the best player on the USWNT.

I think other then possibly Sophia Smith, Naomi Girma is the player the USWNT could least afford to lose to injury. I think she is probably the USWNT's best defender.

I watch most of Racing Louisville's regular season games so I was also happy to see Savannah DeMelo get a chance to start tonight. She easily been Racing's best player the last two years.

[RainMaker]

I don't follow it enough but why isn't Sophia Smith the 9 on this team? She seems way better than Morgan.

[Racer]

I don't follow it enough but why isn't Sophia Smith the 9 on this team? She seems way better than Morgan.

I am not 100% sure.

Perhaps Smith has the skills to be great at both winger and central forward whereas less so for Morgan? I believe Smith plays the nine for Portland so she can play there.

Vlatko certainly believes Smith can play there. One of the reasons cited for leaving Ashley Hatch was that Smith, Lynn Williams, and Trinity Rodman are all capable of playing forward or winger whereas Hatch is strictly a forward. Hatch was the NWSL Golden Boot winner in 2021 and arguably the best US player who is currently healthy not to make the roster.

[miami_fan]

I am not 100% sure.

Perhaps Smith has the skills to be great at both winger and central forward whereas less so for Morgan? I believe Smith plays the nine for Portland so she can play there.

Vlatko certainly believes Smith can play there. One of the reasons cited for leaving Ashley Hatch was that Smith, Lynn Williams, and Trinity Rodman are all capable of playing forward or winger whereas Hatch is strictly a forward. Hatch was the NWSL Golden Boot winner in 2021 and arguably the best US player who is currently healthy not to make the roster.

I think you are pretty much correct with this. Morgan is a 9 and only a 9. So if she plays she is only playing down the middle. If everyone is 100% healthy, I am not sure Morgan makes this squad. Vlatko's preferred frontline early on was Catarina Macario at the 9 and with Smith on the left and Mallory Swanson on the right. With Macario and Swanson injured, and the way Morgan performed for the USWNT last year (2022 Concacaf W Championship Golden Ball winner, 2022 FIFA World Player of the Year finalist, 2022 NWSL Golden Boot winner), it would be a ballsy decision to not start Morgan at this point. That move will probably have to be made at some point during this tournament. I hope it is not too late if/when it is made but I understand why he has not made so far.

[Solecismic]

LIV was just the beginning, apparently. A Saudi team is offering Mbappe $1.1 billion (including about $300 million in a transfer fee to his current club) for one year.

I don't see the end-game here. Are they trying to buy one all-star entry into the European leagues? Are they just bored and don't feel like building another city?

At least this couldn't work with football. Even if they went to town on one draft, who would they play against?

I wonder if they want an old sports sim?

[sovereignstar v2]

Holy shi. You could get Maguire, Antony, and Sancho for that kind of money

[flere-imsaho]

LIV was just the beginning, apparently. A Saudi team is offering Mbappe $1.1 billion (including about $300 million in a transfer fee to his current club) for one year.

To be specific (because it's a reasonably juicy story), Mbappe has one year left on his PSG contract and there's substantial rumors that he's already hush-hush agreed to move to Real Madrid when it expires next summer (which is additionally good for Mbappe because the salary you are offered when you transfer on a free is usually higher because your new team doesn't need to pay a transfer fee).

When Mbappe told PSG earlier this summer that he formally wouldn't be picking up his player option for season 2024-2025, they threw a strop and told him (and intimated in public) that if he doesn't pick it up or sign an extention, that they'll bench him for the year. But also intimated that they'd consider ludicrous transfer offers (remember, they bought him from Monaco in 2018 for ~166M Euro). Ludicrous is really anything of note since most teams won't pay a lot for a player in the final year of their contract, knowing they can get the player for free in <1 year.

So now Al Hilal offers 1/3B in transfer fee to PSG (an offer likely in the realm that PSG would like) and 2/3B in salary for one year for Mbappe. In theory, he could do this and then free transfer to Real Madrid as planned.

Of course, Madrid likely won't be paying him 2/3B annually in salary, so now they have to wonder if a) he might sign a multi-year deal or b) he'll get used to the money and sign an extension while he's in Saudi Arabia.

Complicating the matter is that Madrid's President, Florentino Perez (one of the Super League architects, which, ironically, seems to be what Saudi Arabia is trying to build in-country) has more-or-less promised his fanbase that Mbappe will come to Madrid, even to the extent of letting reigning Ballon d'Or forward Karim Benzema move to, again, Saudi Arabia, and not really replacing him with another center forward.

Honestly, the whole thing couldn't happen to a nicer group of oligarchs.

I don't see the end-game here. Are they trying to buy one all-star entry into the European leagues?

In general, sportswashing (see also: LIV, Newcastle United). In specific, they want to build up a good domestic league from scratch. Bootstrap it a bit, apply to switch confederations from AFC to UEFA, and maybe one day you can be on par with a mid-size UEFA league (Portugal? Holland? Belgium?).

Also likely they just have more money than they know how to spend but I like my speculation better. :D

[flere-imsaho]

Holy shi. You could get Maguire, Antony, and Sancho for that kind of money

I feel attacked.

[bhlloy]

He’s not signing for more than one year in Saudi no matter what, but earning three quarters of a billion for a year and still ending up in the same place you would have if you’d spent a year sitting in the reserves and trying not to be assaulted by PSG ultras in your hometown is pretty hard to say no to.

Of course there are rumors that Barca are trying to get involved, but they don’t have the kind of money to even buy an entry ticket. I can only see this story ending one way - but he has shocked everyone by resigning with PSG when the entire world thought he was going to Real before.

[GrantDawg]

This Messi kid they signed in Miami. He might be pretty good.

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[MIJB#19]

In general, sportswashing (see also: LIV, Newcastle United). In specific, they want to build up a good domestic league from scratch. Bootstrap it a bit, apply to switch confederations from AFC to UEFA, and maybe one day you can be on par with a mid-size UEFA league (Portugal? Holland? Belgium?).Would the UEFA let them get away with their way of burning money, considering financial fair play? Oh wait, UEFA's FFP failed. Never mind. It feels extremely unlikely the member nations would welcome another Asian country in their family, but Kazakhstan managed to get in.

A more logical way would be for those people with money to buy all the clubs in some small country. I'm surprised they're not taking the old fashioned route of buying some in trouble European club with huge bandwagon potential that plays in a country that has no financial fair play regulations. I think one of those recently won that Champions League thingy.

[miami_fan]

In general, sportswashing (see also: LIV, Newcastle United). In specific, they want to build up a good domestic league from scratch. Bootstrap it a bit, apply to switch confederations from AFC to UEFA, and maybe one day you can be on par with a mid-size UEFA league (Portugal? Holland? Belgium?).

Also likely they just have more money than they know how to spend but I like my speculation better. :D

I am beginning to believe that sportswashing used to be the goal but no longer is the goal. I do think they see sports as another avenue into becoming seen as a more "mainstream" country specifically and show the Middle East in that light in general. I mean in the way the Soviet Union, East Germany used to be and of course how China is now. You may not like our politics but you are going to deal with us. Not because we have a billion people or nukes, but we have cash and we know you like cash. That is where things have changed IMO.

They are okay adding enough zeros to the checks to get people to be at the very least silent about the faults. It wasn't the Saudis but we just had a dry World Cup where the hosts told Budweiser they were not allowed to sell alcohol. After that the FIFA president gave his "I feel like a migrant worker" speech and the people who have Budweiser as the official beer of the World Cup were excoriating football fans for wanting to drink and telling them it would be good for them to be sober for a few weeks.

[miami_fan]

USWNT's defense is all over the place.

[RainMaker]

USWNT's defense is all over the place.

Aren't they playing a few people out of position? Very weird strategy in this tournament.

[miami_fan]

Aren't they playing a few people out of position? Very weird strategy in this tournament.

Yes and no. Yes, with the exception of Girma, the rest of the back line are playing out of position. But no it is not like they are playing in positions that are completely foreign to them. Fox is a left back that has played on the right for the national team. Players like Crystal Dunn and Julie Ertz play in the midfield for their clubs instead of defense. But Ertz began her USWNT career in defense so it is not a huge change for her. Dunn is not really a defender. But she is seen as one of the ten best outfield players on the team. Here is an article that explains what that means for Dunn.

Why Crystal Dunn has to play left back for the USWNT (https://prosoccerwire.usatoday.com/2023/07/19/crystal-dunn-left-back-uswnt-womens-world-cup/)

Basically, of the ten best players on the team, Dunn is the only one of those players who can play left back. She has done it almost exclusively since 2019.

I'll take the draw but that first half was brutal. Something has to be done in the midfield to get control of the match from the start. I don't know if Lavelle has more than 45 minutes in her legs but it may be time to find out.

[whomario]

Youri Tielemans playing with a camera:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Youri Tielemans came on for his Aston Villa debut with a camera attached to his chest. <br><br>The pace of play, even in pre-season, is crazy.<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/6DvcbgA5gZ">pic.twitter.com/6DvcbgA5gZ</a></p>&mdash; HLTCO (@HLTCO) <a href="https://twitter.com/HLTCO/status/1684434537663672321?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[albionmoonlight]

Why did they put a shower cap on that Dutch player and then put her back in the game? Seems like the strangest response to a suspected concussion that I've ever seen.

[miami_fan]

Why did they put a shower cap on that Dutch player and then put her back in the game? Seems like the strangest response to a suspected concussion that I've ever seen.

https://www.today.com/health/van-de-donk-swim-cap-soccer-head-injury-rcna96657

Did van de Donk wear the swim cap for a concussion?

No, van de Donk had to wear a swim cap during the Netherlands-U.S. Women's World Cup Game because she was bleeding from her head.

"The compression provided by the swim cap helps stop the bleeding and also prevents blood from getting on the player’s jersey," the medical staff of NJ/NY Gotham FC, a team in the National Women's Soccer League, said in a statement to TODAY.com. "If blood appears on a player’s jersey, the player is temporarily removed from the match and required to change into a clean jersey before returning to play."

Whether she had a concussion or not is a different question.

[albionmoonlight]

Ah. That makes sense. Thanks.

[MIJB#19]

Wow, some of the Hammarby IF fans are nutcases without respect. They kept screaming their club name all the way through a 1 minute silence tribute.

[miami_fan]

Argentina has not found its Maradona or Messi on the women's side.

[miami_fan]

And just like the comeback is complete.

[SirFozzie]

Scott Sterling (the man, the myth, the LEGEND) feels this guys pain. Instead of the headshots Sterling took in that video, these are real, but to the.. ahem.. OTHER head.

https://twitter.com/433/status/1683105070257254400

[bhlloy]

Spoilering this for those in the US who might want to wake up and watch the game in the morning, so don't click if that's you


The US should be out - that was an absolutely awful performance. Alex Morgan is useless at this stage of her career and the coach doesn't have a clue if he thinks she's the best option to play isolated up front.

Physically the US is still elite and dangerous off set pieces, but in terms of skill it's hard to say they are more than a mid-tier squad in this tournament, and tactically they don't seem to have a clue. Very, very lucky and if they are going to go beyond the next couple of rounds will have to make major changes moving forward.

[Solecismic]

Spoilering this for those in the US who might want to wake up and watch the game in the morning, so don't click if that's you


The US should be out - that was an absolutely awful performance. Alex Morgan is useless at this stage of her career and the coach doesn't have a clue if he thinks she's the best option to play isolated up front.

Physically the US is still elite and dangerous off set pieces, but in terms of skill it's hard to say they are more than a mid-tier squad in this tournament, and tactically they don't seem to have a clue. Very, very lucky and if they are going to go beyond the next couple of rounds will have to make major changes moving forward.




In injury time, Portugal broke through and hit the post square-on. They would have finished second in the group if it had gone in. Naeher wasn't solid with her ball handling and made a couple of poor decisions. Morgan and Rapinoe still have great instincts, but they can't quite do it any more. Still, they did manage a good amount of pressure in the second half.

Alexi Lalas and Carli Lloyd were ripping the hell out of the team for dancing and looking pleased with the result. Lloyd called out Andonovski, made it sounds like she blames him for the shortcomings.

They should be dominating, but they give up too much possession and haven't been finishing on offense. Sweden is a challenge for the round of 16. They probably have to play better than today to beat the Swedes. And they'll have to do it without Lavelle, who played 90, but was reckless for someone entering the match on a yellow and managed a second one, earning a one-game suspension. Lavelle seems to be the best at getting them through to the front line, so that will hurt.

[Racer]

In injury time, Portugal broke through and hit the post square-on. They would have finished second in the group if it had gone in. Naeher wasn't solid with her ball handling and made a couple of poor decisions. Morgan and Rapinoe still have great instincts, but they can't quite do it any more. Still, they did manage a good amount of pressure in the second half.

Alexi Lalas and Carli Lloyd were ripping the hell out of the team for dancing and looking pleased with the result. Lloyd called out Andonovski, made it sounds like she blames him for the shortcomings.

They should be dominating, but they give up too much possession and haven't been finishing on offense. Sweden is a challenge for the round of 16. They probably have to play better than today to beat the Swedes. And they'll have to do it without Lavelle, who played 90, but was reckless for someone entering the match on a yellow and managed a second one, earning a one-game suspension. Lavelle seems to be the best at getting them through to the front line, so that will hurt.



Aside from being the USWNT goalkeeper the last few years, I don't know why Alyssa Naeher is starting. She's given up more goals then any other goalie in the NWSL this season (33 goals in 13 games with next highest being 23 in 15 games). I don't follow the Red Stars closely but from what I've read a lot of this is due to Chicago's poor defense but she's partially to blame as well. She hasn't looked look good at the World Cup. I don't understand why Murphy or Kingsburgy isn't starting given both have been much better in the NWSL this year.

I don't think Rapinoe is good enough to play on the USWNT anymore. Her contributions towards equal pay and social issues that go beyond soccer are awesome but she isn't one of the best 23 healthy women soccer players in the USA anymore.

I don't think Rose Lavelle deserved the yellow today. I also think the previous yellow she got was pretty questionable given how chippy the Netherlands was in the first half including pulling DeMelo down by her ponytail.

Let me preface by saying I watch almost all of Racing Louisville's games so I have seen Savannah DeMelo play a lot the last two years. I feel like Savannah DeMelo is an A- version of Lavelle. She's really been a dominating force for Louisville this year and was very good last year as well. She has a lot of the same qualities as a player that make Lavelle an elite player.

For Louisville, DeMelo seems to position herself extremely well, has excellent field vision, is lethal on set pieces near boxes (maybe better then anyone on the USWNT), has great shot accuracy, is strong defensively, is a very good at passes, and just seems to have a nose for the ball (like a women's soccer version of Wes Welker or Cooper Kupp).

Lavelle is more explosive then DeMelo from what I've seen. I've really only started to watch soccer more closely the last two years but I kind of wonder if this is partially why DeMelo gets fouled all the time. I believe she has led or been near the NWSL lead in getting fouled in each of the last two years. I think the ref called 6 fouls against Netherlands on her in the first half of that game so I'm seeing the same thing in the World Cup too.

Additionally, DeMelo has had way less time then Lavelle to develop chemistry with her USWNT teammates so I think that probably limits DeMelo a bit too.

[bhlloy]

I think we can probably take it off spoiler now. I saw that ESPN ranked Lavelle a 4 and had Morgan rated a 6, I genuinely have no idea what game they watched. For me I totally agree with what Jim said, Lavelle was the only player on the US who would bring the ball up the field and do something with it, the rest of the team seemed to want to play far too direct and there was no creativity or composure at all.

It was a bit of a soft yellow but the US got away with quite a few other borderline yellows, thems the breaks I guess.

And yes, Naeher almost cost them the game twice in the last 20 minutes, firstly got very lucky there was no Portugese player in the 6 yard box when she fumbled at a dangerous cross and then completely missed the ball in stoppage time which could have gone straight in with a bit less luck. Definitely feels like a big drop off from seemingly ever WC in recent memory where they had a clear advantage over every other team in the world at the position.

[miami_fan]

I'll go ahead and defend Alex Morgan. I think she was fine outside of her finishing. She was able to do a pretty good job with her hold up play. She led the team in shots created and put in a shift on the defensive end. I am not sure who else on the squad would be better at playing that target forward role.

What's that? Say that again?

You mean we are not required to have a player in that spot on the field to only do that role?

We could put someone in to play that position in the lineup a little bit differently? Or we could have Morgan drop deep and force the defense to chase the wingers? We are allowed to make tactical changes like that?

Hmm, somebody might want to let Vlatko know. I am sure he can't wait to make changes now that IFAB is allowing coaches to do.

P.S. let's not let the other players up front off the hook. The rest of that front line has not looked that much better over the last two matches.

[RainMaker]

Aside from being the USWNT goalkeeper the last few years, I don't know why Alyssa Naeher is starting. She's given up more goals then any other goalie in the NWSL this season (33 goals in 13 games with next highest being 23 in 15 games). I don't follow the Red Stars closely but from what I've read a lot of this is due to Chicago's poor defense but she's partially to blame as well. She hasn't looked look good at the World Cup. I don't understand why Murphy or Kingsburgy isn't starting given both have been much better in the NWSL this year.

Her heroics in penalty saves in 2019 is probably part of it. Also she gets a lot of endorsements for a goalie which seems to be what dictates playing time for this team.

They didn't deserve to advance. Both Netherlands and Portugal were better. Feel kind of bad that Portugal missed out of pulling an upset by a few inches. Especially now that the US is going to face Sweden and likely get trounced without Rose.

[RainMaker]

I'll go ahead and defend Alex Morgan. I think she was fine outside of her finishing. She was able to do a pretty good job with her hold up play. She led the team in shots created and put in a shift on the defensive end. I am not sure who else on the squad would be better at playing that target forward role.

What's that? Say that again?

You mean we are not required to have a player in that spot on the field to only do that role?

We could put someone in to play that position in the lineup a little bit differently? Or we could have Morgan drop deep and force the defense to chase the wingers? We are allowed to make tactical changes like that?

Hmm, somebody might want to let Vlatko know. I am sure he can't wait to make changes now that IFAB is allowing coaches to do.

P.S. let's not let the other players up front off the hook. The rest of that front line has not looked that much better over the last two matches.

It does seem like Vlatko is just shoehorning players into his system instead of playing to the talent's strengths.

I guess Morgan is fine, but fine is not cutting it against this level of competition. She's not special anymore and unless you have a way to give her a ton of help, it's just not going to cut it. I'd probably give Rodman or someone else a shot at the position to see what they can do. Maybe some more athleticism will open things up.

Another weird thing about this team is they have either old, washed-up players or very young, inexperienced players. Not a lot of players in the middle like Lavelle. Have to wonder why Ashley Hatch and Sam Coffey didn't make the squad. They even seem to fit Vlatko's system.

I'd probably just let the young players sink or swim. Throw Thompson to the wolves and see if her freak athleticism can create something. Morgan gave it a shot but you're not beating Sweden or Japan with her. Dragging Rapinoe's corpse out seems like a bad move. Maybe some external factors don't allow that though.

[Racer]

It does seem like Vlatko is just shoehorning players into his system instead of playing to the talent's strengths.

I guess Morgan is fine, but fine is not cutting it against this level of competition. She's not special anymore and unless you have a way to give her a ton of help, it's just not going to cut it. I'd probably give Rodman or someone else a shot at the position to see what they can do. Maybe some more athleticism will open things up.

Another weird thing about this team is they have either old, washed-up players or very young, inexperienced players. Not a lot of players in the middle like Lavelle. Have to wonder why Ashley Hatch and Sam Coffey didn't make the squad. They even seem to fit Vlatko's system.

I'd probably just let the young players sink or swim. Throw Thompson to the wolves and see if her freak athleticism can create something. Morgan gave it a shot but you're not beating Sweden or Japan with her. Dragging Rapinoe's corpse out seems like a bad move. Maybe some external factors don't allow that though.

I think Hatch was left off because Vlatko felt he could shift Smith, Rodman, or Williams to the 10 whenever Alex Morgan is subbed out whereas I guess he must not believe Hatch can play winger. I do feel bad for Hatch. She's been one of the best players in the NWSL the last few years, was left off this World Cup roster, and I think she was left off the 2021 Olympics roster too?

Coffey is more interesting. I wonder if the plan was to play Ertz at the 6 and maybe based on Cook's and Sonnett's camp play decided he didn't trust either one enough at the 2nd CB spot. It's hard to say whether or not she would be better then Sullivan though. I did read an article before the World Cup (forget where) that the responsibilities of the 6 for the USWNT and Portland are not the same and that Sullivan's skills might be better suited for what is asked of the 6 on the USWNT.

[RainMaker]

Hatch is better than Morgan at this stage of their careers. She would have made a great sub for Morgan in the tournament.

[miami_fan]

It does seem like Vlatko is just shoehorning players into his system instead of playing to the talent's strengths.

I guess Morgan is fine, but fine is not cutting it against this level of competition. She's not special anymore and unless you have a way to give her a ton of help, it's just not going to cut it. I'd probably give Rodman or someone else a shot at the position to see what they can do. Maybe some more athleticism will open things up.

Another weird thing about this team is they have either old, washed-up players or very young, inexperienced players. Not a lot of players in the middle like Lavelle. Have to wonder why Ashley Hatch and Sam Coffey didn't make the squad. They even seem to fit Vlatko's system.

I'd probably just let the young players sink or swim. Throw Thompson to the wolves and see if her freak athleticism can create something. Morgan gave it a shot but you're not beating Sweden or Japan with her. Dragging Rapinoe's corpse out seems like a bad move. Maybe some external factors don't allow that though.

Neither Hatch nor Coffey have done it with the national team. The fact that Morgan is back shows the lack of confidence he has in them. It may still be a little early for Coffey but Hatch was on that first new core squad at the end of 2021. He dropped the likes of Morgan, Rapinoe, Dunn etc. from that squad. Hatch started both games and scored in both games. She has played in 15 matches since, started 3 and scoring 3 goals. First, Macario took her place and then when Macario got injured, Morgan took her spot at halftime of the very next match. It is reminiscent of when Germany dropped the likes of Muller, Hummels to bring a new core and then had to bring the old guys back because the results were not going well. He has played Rodman and Smith threw the middle before so it is not completely foreign. I would probably have them up from with Williams and see if they can attack with all out pace. Unfortunately, I have zero confidence that is a tactical shift Vlatko can comfortably make. I fear he will continue to play how he plays.

[RainMaker]

Hatch is the best goal scorer in the best league. Just seems like you'd want her on the squad, even if it's in a backup role.

Morgan and Rapinoe were always going to make it because of the sponsorships. But I feel like you could have probably found a spot for Hatch over one of the young players.

[miami_fan]

Hatch is the best goal scorer in the best league. Just seems like you'd want her on the squad, even if it's in a backup role.

Morgan and Rapinoe were always going to make it because of the sponsorships. But I feel like you could have probably found a spot for Hatch over one of the young players.

I don't follow NWSL close enough to have a informed opinion about Hatch as a player. I see the stats but I have don't know what type of player she is. Stats-wise, I agree with your sentiment. I'm just saying that Vlatko does not seem to rate her for what he wants to do now. When you watched the team play when Vlatko dropped the older players, Morgan could not play in that team with that style. Hatch was there and played early but progressively got less and less playing time.

The future at the number nine position for USWNT is Catarina Macario if she comes back from her ACL injury fully healthy. The concern I have for Hatch under this management team is when Macario got hurt, Hatch did not step into the lineup and get a run of games as a starter with another striker(Coffey?) becoming her backup. Vlatko decided to bring back Morgan and changed the way the team played in order to do so. To be fair, Morgan performed at a high level for him during that time. You could definitely say that shows a lack of tactical flexibility by the coach to get the best out of Hatch but it also is not a good look for player.

[Racer]

Well I would say Germany not making the knockout stage is a massive surprise. They are ranked #2 in the world (for whatever that is worth) and they are the one team that has a trophy room that somewhat rivals the USWNT in women's soccer:

In the previous 8 World Cups, they have won twice, been runner-up once, and finished fourth twice.

In the previous 7 Olympics, they have 1 Gold metal and 3 Bronze metals.

This is the first time they have missed the knockout stage of the World Cup.

Canada and Brazil not making it are very big surprises as well but I don't think they are quite on the same level historically as Germany has been.

[SirFozzie]

Brazil are two-time finalists and Canada's the defending Olympic Champion. Also, no Italy.

[RainMaker]

We're a few inches away from having the US out of the tournament too. It's been really weird. The rest of the world is definitely catching up.

[miami_fan]

I am happy that the rest of the world is catching up. Hopefully some of those teams going through shines an embarrassing light on their countries' FA and federations. Jamaica's women allegedly had to do a GoFundMe fundraiser to lodging, airfare, ground transportation, food and other costs associated with the trip. The Nigerian coach Randy Waldrum who is also the coach at the University of Pittsburgh was almost fired by the Nigerian FA when he called them out for not properly funding the squad's World Cup prep and not paying the players monies owed to them.

[Solecismic]

It was a lot of fun seeing the South Korean women go out and really take it to Germany. They got up 1-0 in six minutes and it probably should have been 2-0. They were so happy, so "nothing to lose, just put it out there".

Germany then dominated, got the equalizer just before half, but couldn't get another in.

I never thought the tournament was ready to go to 32, but it was. Mostly because so many countries are simply taking women's soccer seriously now (even Jamaica's doing something). Now they have sort out talent/development/tactics issues.

I think the US wins this in the end, but it's far from a given. They might even be considered underdogs to Sweden if all you look at is their midfield struggles. And their finishing struggles. And their goaltending struggles. OK, so maybe they're not going to win. But they could.

[Solecismic]

Not to get too encouraged, but I think that's the best half of play I've seen a team play so far. Sweden's lucky it's still 0-0. The US just needs a younger Morgan out there - she looks a bit lost trying to finish. The rest of the team seems to have solved some issues. I wonder if they can start Williams in the second half for Morgan.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, so much better. The double pivot has made all the difference and they really haven’t missed Lavelle as a result.

[sovereignstar v2]

Oh boy, penalties

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[sovereignstar v2]

These are some good effing penalties

That worked a charm

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[sovereignstar v2]

Wow

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[Edward64]

Congrats Sweden. Nice win.

[Solecismic]

Not a fan of deciding things with PK, but that's one to remember. That graphic made it look like less than inch over the line.

[bronconick]

Congratulations to the USWNT on finally being equal to the men's team.

[bhlloy]

Brutal loss by mm, never mind inches. Played much better and looked for a lot of the game like the team who were favorites to repeat, the game up next vs Japan would have been a fascinating clash of styles.

I understand it's a controversial take right now, but the vets really cost this US team. Morgan's link up play was decent, but provided absolutely no cutting edge in the final third and 0 goals (and 0 assists?) in the tournament for a lone striker just is nowhere near good enough. Rapinoe way off the pace when she came on and her set pieces didn't clear the first player most of the time, which took a huge threat away for the last third of the game. And then obviously O'Hara comes on for the PK to ice the game and misses.

[GrantDawg]

Age catches us all, but the Women's team seems to let the former stars play till they retire regardless of the suitability or condition. Leaving Papone or Morgan might have made tactical sense, but the PR hit would have been brutal.

[Solecismic]

That was just not smart on the part of the English player. Thuggish. Critical moment. Not even in the passion of a contentious play. All the pre-tournament favorites have had serious issues. Nigeria has been the better team out there.

[miami_fan]

Practice your penalties kiddos. Or maybe put away your chances during the 120 minutes of open play.

[albionmoonlight]

Age catches us all, but the Women's team seems to let the former stars play till they retire regardless of the suitability or condition. Leaving Papone or Morgan might have made tactical sense, but the PR hit would have been brutal.

When we were orders of magnitude better than all the other countries, we could do things like leave our aging stars out there for a victory lap, and we'd still win easily.

Part of adjusting to the rest of the world catching up will be fans and players having to understand that the World Cup isn't a popularity contest or a lifetime achievement award. If there's a 22-year-old who can play better than you, then your time is up. Thanks for everything you've done; go sell tickets and jerseys for a NWSL team for a few years; and then enjoy a well-earned retirement.

Mother Time is as ruthless as Father Time.

[SirFozzie]

We do have a 2023-24 Soccer thread, you know ;)

[BYU 14]

When we were orders of magnitude better than all the other countries, we could do things like leave our aging stars out there for a victory lap, and we'd still win easily.

Part of adjusting to the rest of the world catching up will be fans and players having to understand that the World Cup isn't a popularity contest or a lifetime achievement award. If there's a 22-year-old who can play better than you, then your time is up. Thanks for everything you've done; go sell tickets and jerseys for a NWSL team for a few years; and then enjoy a well-earned retirement.

Mother Time is as ruthless as Father Time.

Ashley Hatch was a huge miss in forming this team, averaging .73 GPG and only carrying one true striker while leaving her off so some of the others could have their victory lap was ridiculous.

[Racer]

Ashley Hatch was a huge miss in forming this team, averaging .73 GPG and only carrying one true striker while leaving her off so some of the others could have their victory lap was ridiculous.

I agree Hatch should have been on the roster but saying the team was only carrying one true striker isn't the right argument. I believe both Sophia Smith and Lynn Williams play striker for their club teams and I think might be more their natural position then winger is.

Hatch is a superstar in the NWSL so that's a pretty good reason why she probably should have been included.

[cartman]

It is a bit strange that both the Men's and Women's US world cup teams had problems at the striker position. That would seem to point to something institutional, but not sure what it could be. The WNT defense was solid the 4 games they played, just couldn't score.

[RainMaker]

It is a bit strange that both the Men's and Women's US world cup teams had problems at the striker position. That would seem to point to something institutional, but not sure what it could be. The WNT defense was solid the 4 games they played, just couldn't score.

Feels like the women's problem is more self-inflicted. They left Hatch, who is the best scorer in the best women's league at home. They chose to play older players who were washed instead of younger talent.

The talent is there, they just need to be coached and given playing time.

[RainMaker]

Age catches us all, but the Women's team seems to let the former stars play till they retire regardless of the suitability or condition. Leaving Papone or Morgan might have made tactical sense, but the PR hit would have been brutal.

Rapinoe had no business on the team. She especially had no business playing.

Morgan deserves to be on the team. She's not the special player she once was, but I think she would have been a great sub (or even someone you sub off at 60). She's just not effective at this level over 90 minutes.


I do wonder how much of these decisions came down to endorsements.

[RainMaker]

Also worth noting is their U20 and U17 have been bad for a while now. It seems like there are some massive issues in the development and scouting of talent. There is a chance they just become like any other country soon without some major shakeups in the program. And shakeups are not exactly things US Soccer does.

[miami_fan]

Feels like the women's problem is more self-inflicted. They left Hatch, who is the best scorer in the best women's league at home. They chose to play older players who were washed instead of younger talent.

The talent is there, they just need to be coached and given playing time.
I feel the need to put this disclaimer out there one more time. I don't watch or follow the NWSL on a regular basis. The following is an attempt to be educated by anyone who knows more about the league and its players. I only know most of the American players through their international play.

Are we sure the talent is there? And when you say the talent is there, where is there? The NWSL? Because that is where all but one

Do we know where the NWSL among the top women's leagues in the world? Is Ashley Hatch among the top strikers in the world? I don't want to give too much credence to FIFA honors but the top three players on The Best FIFA Women's Player 2022 list were Alexia who plays for Spain and Barcelona, Alex Morgan and Beth Mead who plays for England and Arsenal. There were no other American candidates. Of the FIFA FIFPRO Women's World 11, the only American in the team was Alex Morgan and the only other American nominee was Kelley O'Hara. I think all of us believe that if we had a world class player American player, FIFA would find a way to put them on the team.

Now to Ashley Hatch specifically. I am looking at her stats from last year and this year. What am I missing? This year, she is second in the league in goals with 8 but 4 of those are from the spot compared to 5 and 3 for Morgan. She has an XG of 9.8(1st in the league) compared to Morgan's 4.9, and a npXG (minus penalties) of 6.9 which is also 1st in the league compared to Morgan's 3.4. Hatch is having a good if not great 2023 and is doing better than Morgan. That 2023 consists of 15 matches of a 22 game season from March to Jul of this year. In the full 2022, it was almost a complete opposite. Morgan has better stats in all the categories that matter. This is not to say that based solely on her performance this year, Hatch should not have been on the team. It is me saying that based on the clamor for her inclusion in the USWNT squad, I expected to see a better stat line over the last year plus from Ashley Hatch in the league.

Am I being unfair?

[bhlloy]

I do think that’s a very good point, which is the US setup probably isn’t as good these days as people think it is. At this point as more Womens leagues go professional with academies like the men’s game in Europe, if the US just rests on its laurels with the traditional club to college to a pro league that has been a bit of a mess, it probably won’t stay as the premier or even one of the premier nations in the world.

My wife played semi pro and county level (which I’m sure isn’t even a thing any more) while she was in the UK, with players from and against some name clubs in and around London like Watford, Palace and Arsenal. The level of professionalism was basically non existent; there was talent but it was basically pub levels of organization and fitness and it just happened to be girls who grew up playing and fell into a club team at 14-16. That has totally changed in the UK to a point it’s unrecognizable, now all these Prem teams are pro and have academies and that’s not unusual for the big European leagues from what I understand. The US definitely needs to keep up.

[cuervo72]

Good. Frankly I think it'll make the sport a little more interesting, and championships a little more meaningful. It's like the Dream Team. It's nice the first time, but after twelve years of beating up on Angola or whatever, the novelty wears off, you know? Or for me getting meaning out of WCBB. Oh boy, UCONN wins all the time because they get the very best players all the time, and half the HS feeder players still use set shots and played in games where one team was lucky to score ten points.

Ok, maybe all that is a little hyperbole, but it gets old if every four years you get this prideful coronation where you are, well, as bhlloy says playing against a world of women who came up in an atmosphere with no support or professionalism. You're only as great as your competition. If all of a sudden it's <i>actual</i> competition and you're not good enough to adapt, maybe you weren't really that strong to begin with.

[Solecismic]

Agreed that this WC has been far more entertaining because most matches are competitive. The next step is more organization and teaching. What we're seeing is the result of a generation of serious training for women around the world. But the product is still uneven and overly dependent on athleticism. Methods and organization will continue to improve.

Unfortunately, as we saw from Colombia this morning, the fake injuries to gain fouls and waste time is becoming entrenched in places as well. That's a part of teaching I think we could do without. FIFA should do all it can to eliminate it - "realistic" additional time is a good start.

[albionmoonlight]

Age catches us all, but the Women's team seems to let the former stars play till they retire regardless of the suitability or condition. Leaving Papone or Morgan might have made tactical sense, but the PR hit would have been brutal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2024/06/26/alex-morgan-uswnt-olympic-team-roster-paris/

Glad to see that the team might finally be realizing this. Put your best players on the pitch. This is a football match, not a popularity contest or a lifetime achievement award or a victory lap.

Edit: I think this is paywalled--the article is about Alex Morgan being left off the Olympic roster.

[miami_fan]

This is a football match, not a popularity contest or a lifetime achievement award or a victory lap.


I mean I heard that you should put players on the the Olympic team specially because it is a popularity contest. I don't see why a lifetime achievement award would be any worse of a reason.

I feel like this is just the benefit of having Emma Hayes. Sometimes the explanations are pretty simple if you have the stature, courage and evidence to do so to do so.

“I’ve come from a club level and what I have learned is the best development is done at club level,” Hayes said at her first media availability last month in New York City, essentially directly addressing players through the media. “So go back to your clubs, play, compete, get healthy, and put yourself in the best possible place.”

How is Morgan doing at the club level in 2024 compared to the other attackers on the team?

EDIT: See thesloppy’s post for the graphic comparison. Thank you thesloppy!

[miami_fan]

If someone knows how to make that picture smaller, please let me know.

[thesloppy]

If you're on a PC it's some version of


right click image
copy image
open image software (e.g paint)
paste image
resize image/canvas
right click/copy image again
paste back into your post

I have software that makes it relatively painless and uploads it to the web:

https://i.imgur.com/mUW5xBL.png