Ongoing pro/college basketball thread (2023-24)

[GrantDawg]

I would usually do this to make fun of the idea that Player X will be forever know as an NBA champion. Guys like Ish Smith and JaVale McGee being introduced as NBA champions for eternity is just hilarious.

However even though he did it with the Celtics, I gotta give a shout out to an underrated player and someone who has seemed like a really classy guy his entire career.

Al Horford, NBA Champion.
Agreed. I was thinking almost the exact same thing and came here to post it. I am very happy for him to get that ring.

[stevew]

Monty Williams fired, it’s like the Anthony Rendon of coaching contracts.

[Ksyrup]

I would absolutely take the ignominy of being fired after 1 season for $65M.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let the Williams to the Lakers rumors begin

[BYU 14]

Gotta say, even though I am not a huge hoops fan, BYU is killing this off-season under Kevin Young. Igor Demin, who is likely a lottery pick in 2025 draft, now Kanon Catchings, most likely a first round pick in 2025 as well, related to both Tamika and Harvey Catchings.

Young is really capitalizing on his NBA ties and the pro system the Cougars will be running next season. May be the first time ever I am more excited about BYU basketball than BYU football.

[miami_fan]

Monty Williams fired, it’s like the Anthony Rendon of coaching contracts.

Legend at the bank!

[miami_fan]

I would absolutely take the ignominy of being fired after 1 season for $65M.

A year plus after getting a $20 million buyout to no longer be the Suns head coach.

[Edward64]

This kid is 15 and will be playing for the Gators.

I don't know how good he is but interesting to see how teams defend against him. His dunks must be something else!

Before Olivier Rioux plays a game for Florida men's basketball, his place in the Guinness World Record books got even stronger, extending his mark as the world's tallest teenager from 7-foot-7 two months ago to 7-FOOT-9 in present day.
Florida basketball giant Olivier Rioux extends his Guinness World Record height for a teenager to 7-FOOT-9 before Gators career begins | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/college-basketball/article-13548359/Florida-basketball-Olivier-Rioux-Guinness-World-Record-height-teenager.html)

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2024/06/20/02/86346933-13548359-image-a-28_1718848320935.jpg

[Lathum]

It must be dreadful to be that tall.

[rjolley]

The Bulls are trading Caruso to the Thunder for Giddey.

I'm not mad at that trade. It gets the Bulls a ball handler and someone who can run the offense. Hopefully, the shooting coach can help improve his shooting. Good gamble.

[Atocep]

This would make OKC significantly better and Chicago a lot worse in the short term. Giddey is an interesting player, but a really difficult fit in today's NBA. I would have thought Chicago could do better, but Giddey is only 22 next season so they're betting on the upside I guess.

[RainMaker]

This would make OKC significantly better and Chicago a lot worse in the short term. Giddey is an interesting player, but a really difficult fit in today's NBA. I would have thought Chicago could do better, but Giddey is only 22 next season so they're betting on the upside I guess.

They could have done better but their ownership demands they compete for the play-in game each season instead of rebuilding. Report came out the other day that the Bulls turned down a top-10 pick for Caruso at the deadline.

[sovereignstar v2]

how are the high school cheerleaders in Chicago?

[stevew]

Kenny fkn Atkinson.

[GrantDawg]

I think it is hilarious and somewhat fitting for the franchise. The Hawks finally have the number one pick, and no one really has any idea what they are going to do with it, except whatever they do will likely be wrong.

[stevew]

That’s Bridges trade is great for the Knicks.

[Danny]

Idk, is he better than it appears from advanced statistics? He seems like a pretty mediocre starter.

[Swaggs]

It's a good fit and a fun trade (with the three Villanova guys reuniting), but seems pretty steep on the draft picks. If a guy like him is worth 4+ 1st round picks, that seems like quite a shake up on the value of picks in trades.

[Arles]

Yeah, 5 firsts for a guy that is *maybe* a #3 (prob a #4) on a title team. And it's not like he's 23, he's 27 and has just two years left on a great deal that will probably double if you keep him at age 29.

[RainMaker]

There's so many restrictions on those draft picks that I can't tell if it's a good deal or not.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, 5 firsts for a guy that is *maybe* a #3 (prob a #4) on a title team. And it's not like he's 23, he's 27 and has just two years left on a great deal that will probably double if you keep him at age 29.

This.

Looks to me like the Nets absolutely got bailed out here, all that Bridges has really proven is that he is not "the guy" And 5 firsts for "not the guy" seems like the sort of thing that is more likely to end some front office careers than to win a title.

[Swaggs]

This.

Looks to me like the Nets absolutely got bailed out here, all that Bridges has really proven is that he is not "the guy" And 5 firsts for "not the guy" seems like the sort of thing that is more likely to end some front office careers than to win a title.

That's kind of how I see it, too. If he is not cornerstone enough for a team like the Nets to build around (which he isn't with him presumably fully developed at his age) and isn't a slam dunk to put your playoff team over the top, that is a lot of future to mortgage.

[Atocep]

Who in the hell thought it was a good idea to spread a 2 round drafted out over 2 days?

[stevew]

nets made a trade to get a bunch of their future picks back. So maybe this time they won’t suck and give a fucking title to someone.

As far as bridges goes, he’s basically indestructible, which is good because Tibs wants guys to play into the ground. He absolutely fits the potential title window of the Knicks. I’m not sure who else they could’ve gotten with all those assets. AD would have been a dream fit but he’s not available. The Knicks enter the season with 7-8 guys to go to war with. Maybe they gave up one or two too many first round picks, but this team can absolutely win a title now.

[RainMaker]

This.

Looks to me like the Nets absolutely got bailed out here, all that Bridges has really proven is that he is not "the guy" And 5 firsts for "not the guy" seems like the sort of thing that is more likely to end some front office careers than to win a title.

It makes me furious the Bulls couldn't get more for Caruso if that's the asking price for a nice role player.

[Arles]

nets made a trade to get a bunch of their future picks back. So maybe this time they won’t suck and give a fucking title to someone.

As far as bridges goes, he’s basically indestructible, which is good because Tibs wants guys to play into the ground. He absolutely fits the potential title window of the Knicks. I’m not sure who else they could’ve gotten with all those assets. AD would have been a dream fit but he’s not available. The Knicks enter the season with 7-8 guys to go to war with. Maybe they gave up one or two too many first round picks, but this team can absolutely win a title now.
The Knicks are still well behind:
1. Healthy Celtics team
2. Healthy Bucks team
3. Healthy Nuggets team

They are comparable to:
1. Healthy Thunder team
2. Healthy 76ers team
3. Healthy Heat team
4. Healthy Wolves team

I think they are fighting for the 3-5 seed next year IF they resign OG and somehow keep Brunson, OG, Bridges, Hart and Donte healthy. I guess they have a chance in the East if Giannis, Embiid, Jimmy & Haliburton get hurt again. But their core isn't anything special compared to the other top 5-6 groups in the league. So giving up 5 firsts to better your third guy (when you already lost the top 2 in most matchups) seems like a risky move.

[Atocep]

The Knicks are still well behind:
1. Healthy Celtics team
2. Healthy Bucks team
3. Healthy Nuggets team

They are comparable to:
1. Healthy Thunder team
2. Healthy 76ers team
3. Healthy Heat team
4. Healthy Wolves team

I think they are fighting for the 3-5 seed next year IF they resign OG and somehow keep Brunson, OG, Bridges, Hart and Donte healthy. I guess they have a chance in the East if Giannis, Embiid, Jimmy & Haliburton get hurt again. But their core isn't anything special compared to the other top 5-6 groups in the league. So giving up 5 firsts to better your third guy (when you already lost the top 2 in most matchups) seems like a risky move.


They're behind the Celtics and Nuggets. Not sure about anyone else. They solid defenders all over their roster and someone to take up the scoring load if Randle goes out again. They're following the Celtics blueprint and aren't as good, but they have impressive depth and a variety of defenders to throw at top heavy teams. They have a poor man's Celtics roster that's probably on par with OKC and the T-Wolves. I put them over everyone in the East except Boston.

I don't see much risk here. You either push your chips in and make a play for a title or you sit just outside of contention until you have to rebuild anyway. If it doesn't work out there are always teams out there ready to throw picks at you to improve. Everyone thought Houston and Brooklyn screwed themselves for years to come and Houston has one of the stronger young foundations in the league and the Nets are flush with picks to rebuild with.

[Atocep]

It makes me furious the Bulls couldn't get more for Caruso if that's the asking price for a nice role player.

I'm not sure the Bulls understood what they had. Caruso has massive value to title contenders. For those teams with stars already in place you get a guy that can come in, knock down shots, defend, and make you clearly better without using many possessions on a cap hit of less than 10 mil per. That's something you pay a premium for when you're firmly within your window.

[RainMaker]

Just read through the details and 4 of those picks are unprotected which seems a bit insane. Like would the Nets really have turned down that trade if those picks were top 3 protected?

[RainMaker]

I'm not sure the Bulls understood what they had. Caruso has massive value to title contenders. For those teams with stars already in place you get a guy that can come in, knock down shots, defend, and make you clearly better without using many possessions on a cap hit of less than 10 mil per. That's something you pay a premium for when you're firmly within your window.

They reportedly turned down a top-10 pick in this year's draft. The Kings also offered them their 1st. Supposedly the Warriors offered multiple first last season. And Caruso was a way to dump the bad Lavine contract.

Their problem seems to be that the owner doesn't want to rebuild. He wants to just sneak into the playoffs and keep the arena full. The goal isn't titles, it's 40 wins. And trading Caruso for a bunch of future picks hurts that chance next season.

It's still criminal that they traded with a team that has like 10 first round picks in their pocket and they didn't get any. Especially when you realize the Bulls still owe the Spurs a 1st round pick.

I personally would have dumped Caruso for picks. Sign and trade with Demar for picks (a guy they should have moved at the deadline when he had a ton of value). And then pray you can get anything for Lavine. That way you're bad enough for the next year or two to keep your protected 1st too. But can't do that with the worst owner in sports.

[stevew]

I don’t understand trading the Dillingham pick for the Spurs. They have no guards.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Have the Lakers been sold to Donald Sterling and nobody told us?

[Ksyrup]

I have not dove deep into the story but this Kyle Filipowski thing is wild. Apparently he's estranged from his family primarily due to his GF who was his babysitter at one point and they may have been in a relationship from as far back as when he was 13? I don't know if her age is confirmed but I've seen anywhere from 5 to 7 years older. Someone purporting to be his brother alleged she had groomed him, she's Mormon and he ended up drafted by Utah.

Sounds like she had as much influence on his draft slot as LeBron on his kid!

Just a weird story that came out of the blue (at least as someone who watched a bunch of college bball but didn't get into it that deeply - was this out there before now?).

[Atocep]

I have not dove deep into the story but this Kyle Filipowski thing is wild. Apparently he's estranged from his family primarily due to his GF who was his babysitter at one point and they may have been in a relationship from as far back as when he was 13? I don't know if her age is confirmed but I've seen anywhere from 5 to 7 years older. Someone purporting to be his brother alleged she had groomed him, she's Mormon and he ended up drafted by Utah.

Sounds like she had as much influence on his draft slot as LeBron on his kid!

Just a weird story that came out of the blue (at least as someone who watched a bunch of college bball but didn't get into it that deeply - was this out there before now?).

No it wasn't. His brother broke the story on Twitter. Apparently teams saw all sorts of red flags with his interviews and had figured out what was going on but it hadn't leaked out until his brother went public with the info.

[stevew]

Weirdest shit since that ND linebacker got Catfished I think

[Atocep]

5 years and 90 mil for Patrick Williams is insane. I'm not sure what Chicago is doing and I don't think they do either. He's, at best, an average defender and his offense is well below average. He's still only 22 years old but he also hasn't improved much in 4 seasons.

[stevew]

Chris Paul out to play in SA and make his 8th team unwatchable.

[stevew]

5 years and 90 mil for Patrick Williams is insane. I'm not sure what Chicago is doing and I don't think they do either. He's, at best, an average defender and his offense is well below average. He's still only 22 years old but he also hasn't improved much in 4 seasons.

That’s basically the midlevel though.

[SirFozzie]

I don't think it's just the salary, but the years as well. If he doesn't pan out, you have $18 million on the cap for the next five years.

[Atocep]

I don't think it's just the salary, but the years as well. If he doesn't pan out, you have $18 million on the cap for the next five years.

Yep

Ball's contract comes off the books after this season and rather than working toward cap flexibility they tied up a guy for 5 years that they've been worse with on the court.

[stevew]

Glad to see Hartenstein get a bag. Still one of the more puzzling things was when the Cavs let him bounce for nothing.

[RainMaker]

5 years and 90 mil for Patrick Williams is insane. I'm not sure what Chicago is doing and I don't think they do either. He's, at best, an average defender and his offense is well below average. He's still only 22 years old but he also hasn't improved much in 4 seasons.

The Bulls turned down 3 2nd round picks for Andre Drummond last season and just lost him for nothing.


Like I don't think the Williams contract is terrible considering what other players are getting and his upside, but the Bulls are just a disaster of an organization.

[rjolley]

The Bulls turned down 3 2nd round picks for Andre Drummond last season and just lost him for nothing.


Like I don't think the Williams contract is terrible considering what other players are getting and his upside, but the Bulls are just a disaster of an organization.

This is where I'm at. They are 6 months too late with the moves they're trying to make. Lavine, Caruso, and Drummond should've been traded by the deadline. Probably Derozan as well if they didn't have a deal in place. Now, they'll be stuck with Lavine with just Giddey to show for the others.

[RainMaker]

This is where I'm at. They are 6 months too late with the moves they're trying to make. Lavine, Caruso, and Drummond should've been traded by the deadline. Probably Derozan as well if they didn't have a deal in place. Now, they'll be stuck with Lavine with just Giddey to show for the others.

Yeah, they should have unloaded everyone at the deadline last year. Would have gotten a bunch of picks back and could have kickstarted the rebuild.

Now they don't have picks and still owe a 1st to San Antonio. They're in about as bad a spot as any team in the league.

[stevew]

Anyone like Cade Cunningham, Scottie Barnes or Franz Wagner at the max? Or probably Jalen Green or Evan Mobley soon? Or Kuminga?

5/225ish

Like tbh I’d rather have Suggs at whatever he gets which is like maybe 4/120? Suggs has been hurt too much but he just screams defensive cog on a championship team some day.

[Atocep]

I've watched some of the warm up games for team USA and I don't think Steve Kerr is a very good international coach. It's crazy that a guy that comes from a team that really helped popularize the current 3 point era in the NBA doesn't seem to focus on shooting enough offensively and is terrible at coaching his USA teams to defend them.

I don't think Haliburton was a good choice on this team. Embiid isn't either. Lillard would have probably been the best choice over Haliburton but if they wanted a young player to get experience then Maxey would have fit this team better IMO.

Embiid was likely selected because of his status in the league but he's a poor fit for international play. I think Chet Holmgren would have been a solid choice over Bam Adebayo or Embiid. Myles Turner probably wouldn't have been a bad pick either. One thing the US seems to underestimate when they try to plug good NBA interior defenders into international play is how much more ground they're expected to cover. Holmgren's length and shooting would have been more valuable IMO.

That doesn't even get into the Derrick White selection which seems like a waste. And this seems to run counter to that comment but when they rebuilt USA basketball from the ground up after '04 the focus was on building a team that would do well in international competition. They seem to be focused too much on getting certain stars on the team again.

[stevew]

South Sudan can’t covert a six foot shot and lose at the buzzer to team USA by one point. Make Team USA great again.

[Atocep]

Germany took 42 threes today compared to the US taking 16. They probably lose by double figures without Lebron.

[RainMaker]

South Sudan can’t covert a six foot shot and lose at the buzzer to team USA by one point. Make Team USA great again.

That would have to go down as one of the greatest upsets in sports history, right? I know it was just an exhibition, but there is no reason South Sudan should be within 20 of Team USA playing even at half speed.

[Edward64]

Nice! Now if we can work same magic on the football side …

I think the consensus is we have had alot of talent, just couldn’t make them all gel together well

Arkansas has landed its first piece of John Calipari’s 2025 recruiting class, grabbing one of the best players in the country in the process.

The player is Darius Acuff Jr., a 5-star point guard and top-10 overall recruit who plays for IMG Academy in Florida. Listed at 6-foot-3 and 180 pounds, Acuff was also down to Kansas and Michigan before making his decision.

[stevew]

I just saw one picture of Zion Williamson in shape and wasted $20 on an MVP future ticket at +10,000

[miami_fan]

A few of my critiques of Caitlin Clark from earlier in the season.

She is going to have to find ways to get to and make shots at the basket. Eleven of fifteen shot attempts from behind the three point line is making it too easy for the opposition.

It is early but the Fever would be better off having Kelsey Mitchell being the primary scorer at least early on. Caitlyn's forcing her own offense and is force feeding the ball to Aliyah Boston.

It just might be be better for the team in general and Caitlyn specifically if there was more of a focus on Caitlyn the great passer and offensive creator than on Caitlyn the scorer at this point.


Clark's shot chart from last night was a basketball nerd's wet dream. Four for six not just on twos, not just in the paint, but almost exclusively in the restricted area. Three for ten on shots not just from behind the three point line but almost exclusively from twenty five feet or more. I know that the logo threes are what people want to see but she is too good of a shooter all over the court to not mix in a few mid range shots here and there.


Getting to the basket more?......Check
Being more of a passer first? ...... Check
Shooting a few mid range jumpers?... Check

The Caitlin Clark that was the college player of the year last season has finally arrived in the W.

BTW she is still getting rocked once or twice a game just like every WNBA player. After being reacquainted with FIBA basketball for both the men and the women, I am now of the opinion that girls and women's basketball is called much more like the FIBA game for both the men and women while boys and men's basketball is called more like the NBA game.

[SirFozzie]

ESPN has an article on the NBA asking the court to dismiss the TNT/Warner Brothers discovery, and lists all the changes that TNT/WBD made:

NBA files motion to dismiss Warner Bros. Discovery lawsuit - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40978381/nba-files-motion-dismiss-warner-bros-discovery-lawsuit)

I think the lawsuit will survive the motion to dismiss (it's VERY hard to get the judge to agree that no reasonable person could consider this a match), but it sounds like NBA's trying to play hardball here. (Realistically, this is all a waiting game, WBD/TNT want lots of money to go away, and the NBA doesn't want to give lots of money. Neither side actually wants to go to trial)

[Brian Swartz]

Apparently Damien Lillard was/is training with the Goggins. Safe to say he's not likely to have any conditioning issues next year.

[GrantDawg]

This is pretty amazing considering where they started at the begining of the season. It is also amazing how much I enjoy watching the WNBA, or specifically watching the Fever play.
<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Fever are the best offense in the WNBA. <a href="https://t.co/T1an71Fhw7">pic.twitter.com/T1an71Fhw7</a></p>&mdash; Kirk Goldsberry (@kirkgoldsberry) <a href="https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1833518647425257869?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 10, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[Radii]

This is pretty amazing considering where they started at the begining of the season. It is also amazing how much I enjoy watching the WNBA, or specifically watching the Fever play.


My sister and I watch every one of their games that we can, it's been incredibly fun following the league, I definitely want to go to a game next year.

[stevew]

Woj dropping the most massive Woj bomb today that he is retiring to go work for St Bonaventure. Helluva run.

[Ghost Econ]

It would have been better if Charania had scooped him.

[Atocep]

KAT to the Knicks for Randle and other pieces?

[Edward64]

This is pretty amazing considering where they started at the begining of the season. It is also amazing how much I enjoy watching the WNBA, or specifically watching the Fever play.

I watched a little of the Fever but only because of Caitlin Clark.

Lot's of YT out there pro Clark and negativity towards Reece and the culture (?) of the WNBA. So, what is the real story?

[miami_fan]

KAT to the Knicks for Randle and other pieces?

Karl Anthony Towns vs. The NY media.

The Knicks better not lose one game.

[GrantDawg]

I watched a little of the Fever but only because of Caitlin Clark.

Lot's of YT out there pro Clark and negativity towards Reece and the culture (?) of the WNBA. So, what is the real story?
Racism. Jealousy. Media exploitation. There are definitely old school WNBA players that don't like a straight white girl getting so much attention, but the media is exploiting that, especially right-wing media. Fans then have started attacking POC players both online and on the court with racist comments.

For the most part, you can watch the other players interact with Clark and see they get along. Most of it has been just click-farming. She has brought lots of eyes and people to the seats in the league, and players generally recognize that only means more money for everyone.

As for Reece in particular, they are rivals. She and Clark have clashed all through college. She has made comments that she feels unjustly ignored at times because of Clark. Really, it could be a fun rivalry if they hadn't started making it about race and brought in the rage-farmers.

[stevew]

The Knicks just got a whole lot dumber.

[Atocep]

TIL Woj was making about $7 mil per year at ESPN when left to join the Bonnie's athletic department.

[GrantDawg]

TIL Woj was making about $7 mil per year at ESPN when left to join the Bonnie's athletic department.
They are saying ESPN is considering moving MLB reporter Jeff Passan over to become their chief NBA insider.

[Ksyrup]

UK had Big Blue Madness tonight and the worst kept secret in Lexington was that Pitino was going to show up. Now, I get it - Pope is his guy from the 1996 championship team, Pope has been preaching "UK family" and nostalgia for the (mostly) pre-Calipari UK teams, and Pitino was due for a proper return to Lexington.

That said... dude is the current, active head coach at St. John's! When Pope was a candidate, Pitino came out in support of him. Totally understandable. When he was hired, he made some noise about donating to the program (OK?). Now, he's shown up for the start of UK's season - wearing UK blue. I assume St. John's blessed his appearance (or at least didn't say no), but I find this whole thing incredibly weird. He's acting like a retired coach "coming home" when in fact he's still a head coach - AND will be playing UK this year.

I assume everyone here loved it, but I found it really awkward. St. John's fans/players cool with this?

[miami_fan]

I assume everyone here loved it, but I found it really awkward. St. John's fans/players cool with this?

Do they have a choice? Pitino may be a douchbag but he is also a hall of fame coach. If it bothers St. John's that much, they can fire Pitino. UK will demote Pope to lead assistant if they feel like being nice and then hire Pitino.

Would St. John's prefer to be with a hall of fame coach who has a night out or two with one of his exes or would they prefer not to have that hall of fame coach?

[Ksyrup]

Well, apparently I'm not alone in thinking that was ridiculous and embarrassing.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BREAKING?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BREAKING</a>: Big East commissioner Val Ackerman held a phone conference with St. John’s head coach Rick Pitino and AD Ed Kull this morning to discuss Pitino’s visit to Kentucky this weekend, per source.<br><br>Ackerman called the visit an “embarrassment to the conference” and “wholly… <a href="https://t.co/h5RUEn8QnM">pic.twitter.com/h5RUEn8QnM</a></p>&mdash; Rob Reinhart (@RealRobReinhart) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealRobReinhart/status/1845497059459182730?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 13, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Ksyrup]

The rest of that tweet is - "Forced resignation for Pitino is on the table, among other possible sanctions for St. John’s, I’m told."

[Atocep]

It was ridiculous, insulting to his players, and it's not like Pitino had any leverage to pull a stunt like that. The guy is 72 and damaged goods, or else he wouldn't be at St. John's. Programs aren't beating down his door to coach at their school at this point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, apparently I'm not alone in thinking that was ridiculous and embarrassing.

That seems to be a troll post from a low end source.

[Ksyrup]

Another reason I stay away from Twitter these days. The reasons just keep piling up to delete the damn thing like I did FB a few years back.

[JPhillips]

I can understand it if St. John's wants to discipline him, but I don't see how the conference can do anything unless they have some sort of written rules.

[miami_fan]

It was ridiculous, insulting to his players, and it's not like Pitino had any leverage to pull a stunt like that. The guy is 72 and damaged goods, or else he wouldn't be at St. John's. Programs aren't beating down his door to coach at their school at this point.

Troll post aside, I can't see why it would be an issue for St. John's. It's not like he went back to Providence to celebrate his history with them. Providence is one of St John's conference rivals. He went to Kentucky under the invite of one of his former players who is now Kentucky's head coach to celebrate with other former players of his the achievements they all had at that school.

If he had left Louisville to do this, I get everyone being upset. This is St John's and this ain't Louie Carnesecca's St John's program either. This is a St. John's program that signed a 70 year old coach with Pitino's baggage to a 6 year deal for $20 million total. That suggests he has a bit more leverage that we may think. Add to that a Pitino rant where he absolutely insulted his players telling them they were not good enough motivated a donor contribute some $10 million to the NIL fund. He might have taken the school private jet to Lexington.

[RainMaker]

Bennett retiring from Virginia out of the blue today. Health or scandal related? Seems like some odd timing.

[Atocep]

Bennett retiring from Virginia out of the blue today. Health or scandal related? Seems like some odd timing.

He's been really unhappy with the lack of NIL support and other things lately. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why and he takes a year off and then takes another job.

[Ksyrup]

If someone told me an ACC coach was going to retire 2 weeks before the season starts, I'd have gone HAM. Coach Ham, that is.

[Ksyrup]

If it's NIL/Portal stuff, that's really bad timing to screw over your players this close to the season. But maybe he just decided he couldn't recruit HS kids and portal players now knowing he was going to leave at the end of this season, so he ripped the band-aid off now.

[Ksyrup]

First time since 1981 no coach in the ACC has a national championship on their resume.

[miami_fan]

He's been really unhappy with the lack of NIL support and other things lately. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why and he takes a year off and then takes another job.

A request for more NIL funding would have required a change in offensive style right? But it would make no sense in my opinion to expect Tony Bennett to change his style after all these years.

[INDalltheway]

He retired this close to the season so his guy would get the job rather than a national search. Similiar to what Bo Ryan did during the season to ensure Gard got the job (and also to cover up how he used university money to fund his affair).

[Ksyrup]

Bennett confirmed this was about NIL and portal - "The game and college athletics are not in a healthy spot. I think I was equipped to do the job the old way."

[RainMaker]

Bennett confirmed this was about NIL and portal - "The game and college athletics are not in a healthy spot. I think I was equipped to do the job the old way."

The changes in the sport made him $38 million over the past decade. Didn't see him complaining when it benefited him.

[RainMaker]

One thing the process is good for is exposing the coaches in college sports who realize they can't cut it when they don't have a massive talent advantage over other teams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Bennett confirmed this was about NIL and portal - "The game and college athletics are not in a healthy spot. I think I was equipped to do the job the old way."

Well, that's his story at least. The timing of this sudden epiphany ... well that does give me some doubts.

A factor could be the fact he ain't won a tournament game since 2019. Another could be the realization he probably wasn't gonna win one this year either.

[RainMaker]

It's weird too because he has used the transfer portal successfully to bring in really good players. He just wasn't able to win with them. Still can't fathom how they couldn't make it out of the first round with that 2021 team.

[Ksyrup]

My understanding is that it's what INDalltheway said - he timed it like this so his assistant would at least get first crack at showing he could be the head coach as interim, rather than doing it at the end of the year and allowing the school the time to do a full search and potentially exclude him. I don't know who "him" is and I don't know if that's true, but I've read that in multiple places/

[Atocep]

My understanding is that it's what INDalltheway said - he timed it like this so his assistant would at least get first crack at showing he could be the head coach as interim, rather than doing it at the end of the year and allowing the school the time to do a full search and potentially exclude him. I don't know who "him" is and I don't know if that's true, but I've read that in multiple places/

Ron Sanchez, who was a coach for Bennett then took the job at Charlotte, had a losing record there, and landed back with Bennett last year. It's unlikely he'd even get an interview if they had a full offseason to make a hire. Now he's probably going to get a chance to coach this year and get an interview unless they can somehow pull someone with a couple weeks left until the season starts.

The rumor at the start of this past coaching cycle was that Bennett would at least listen to offers to leave UVA because he wasn't getting enough NIL support. If he wants to sit out for a year or two he'll have his choice of jobs as they open. Dealing with recruiting high school players, transfers, and your own players 24/7 isn't for everyone. I 100% get any of the older guard coaches wanting to step away from the mess NCAA sports are right now.

[bronconick]

For all the hype from this rookie class, the WNBA is apparently going to lose $40 million, which is an improvement over the projected $50 million.

https://www.si.com/onsi/womens-fastbreak/news/nba-owners-reportedly-frustrated-with-lack-of-financial-return-from-wnba-01jah39wngp2

[sovereignstar v2]

The phantom call that forced overtime was super cute. Nice fix

[sovereignstar v2]

What a fucking joke of a call

[Ksyrup]

I'm not sure how to assess the back-to-back stories this week about the WNBA losing $40M and the players opting out of the CBA to get "a bigger piece of the pie." Plenty of people are making money off the league, I'm sure, and we're all aware of how teams and leagues hide profits and cry poor (I don't know enough about the WNBA to understand its economics aside from the fact that the NBA is thr main investor and appears to be propping the league up for an ROI that may never come), but if it's not profitable, seems like a hard ask for a bigger portion of revenues.

[GrantDawg]

I'm not sure how to assess the back-to-back stories this week about the WNBA losing $40M and the players opting out of the CBA to get "a bigger piece of the pie." Plenty of people are making money off the league, I'm sure, and we're all aware of how teams and leagues hide profits and cry poor (I don't know enough about the WNBA to understand its economics aside from the fact that the NBA is thr main investor and appears to be propping the league up for an ROI that may never come), but if it's not profitable, seems like a hard ask for a bigger portion of revenues.
I think that "loss" release was exactly targeted because the owners knew the opt out was coming. If the owners were in real danger of losing on their investment, Golden State and Toronto wouldn't be paying $50 million a piece in franchise fees to get in, and Portland wouldn't be paying $60 million. Toronto and Portland also having to invest another $50 million on top of that in facilities and other cost.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah I get it. I'd love to see the true financial picture - of any of these leagues, really. But I will allow for some truth to the idea of "ramp up" losses and some impatience with things happening more slowly than anticipated/promised.

[RainMaker]

The "financial loss" is inconsequential since it's based off the old media deal. The new media deal starts in 2026 and jumps from $60 million to $200 million. That should wipe out all losses and put the teams into the black. The league is also no longer footing the bill for production costs like they were on their old deal which likely saves millions as well.

[GrantDawg]

The "financial loss" is inconsequential since it's based off the old media deal. The new media deal starts in 2026 and jumps from $60 million to $200 million. That should wipe out all losses and put the teams into the black. The league is also no longer footing the bill for production costs like they were on their old deal which likely saves millions as well.
I was wondering about that and meant to look it up when i got home. I thought they had signed a new deal, but didn't realize it hasn't even kicked in. Tv deals are where most league derive their biggest income. So, yeah. The woman are on pretty good ground to demand a raise, even while the billionaires cry poor as usual.

[stevew]

I keep meaning to checkout the end of the WNBA finals.

Seems like some Minnesota state rep should designate 01/19 as “Sabrina Ionescu Day” to protest the outcome.

[SirFozzie]

Celtics should get the NBA record for most threes.. they scored their 29 threes in just 39 minutes.. then went 0 for 13 the last nine *laughs*

[jcard]

Troll post aside, I can't see why it would be an issue for St. John's. It's not like he went back to Providence to celebrate his history with them. Providence is one of St John's conference rivals. He went to Kentucky under the invite of one of his former players who is now Kentucky's head coach to celebrate with other former players of his the achievements they all had at that school.

If he had left Louisville to do this, I get everyone being upset. This is St John's and this ain't Louie Carnesecca's St John's program either. This is a St. John's program that signed a 70 year old coach with Pitino's baggage to a 6 year deal for $20 million total. That suggests he has a bit more leverage that we may think. Add to that a Pitino rant where he absolutely insulted his players telling them they were not good enough motivated a donor contribute some $10 million to the NIL fund. He might have taken the school private jet to Lexington.

Those last Pitino teams at Kentucky (1995-96 national champs and 1996-97 runner-ups who lost in overtime playing the tournament without arguably their best player; group also seeded large part of 1997-98 Tubby Smith-coached champs) were collectively an incredible accumulation of talent—even with the 94-95 team’s number two scorer and assist man (and future NBAer) Rodrick Rhodes transferring to USC to sit out a year and then finish his collegiate career in 96-97. Just off the top of my head: Wayne Turner, Anthony Epps, Derek Anderson, Tony Delk, Jeff Shepherd (redshirted scheduled 96-97 senior year, F4 MOP in 97-98), Allen Edwards, Cameron Mills, Ron Mercer, Heshimu Evans, Antoine Walker Walter McCarty, Scott Padgett, Jared Prickett, Nazr Mohammed, Jamaal Magloire, Mark Pope…

[BishopMVP]

I was wondering about that and meant to look it up when i got home. I thought they had signed a new deal, but didn't realize it hasn't even kicked in. Tv deals are where most league derive their biggest income. So, yeah. The woman are on pretty good ground to demand a raise, even while the billionaires cry poor as usual.
The question is how much of a raise they're looking for, and the twist is the new 3v3 league with 30 of the best players (but no CC yet). I don't think today's players have any sympathy for the years of losses up to this point, but if I was a backer I'd feel entitled to a higher portion of the profits that are finally here as payback for some of those. TNT also only needed to pay ~$8 million a year to pay all 30 players at least the WNBA max of $250k (plus equity) for much less work and travel, and if they've got that as a fallback those top players may be a lot less willing to compromise on a smaller graduated pay increase for the WNBA. None of this happens until after next season, so I don't see any deal getting worked out in that time and both sides getting a data point on how that league does TV rating wise and whether the WNBA can capitalize on the recent popularity surge or if it still stays really Caitlin Clark centric.

[RainMaker]

The question is how much of a raise they're looking for, and the twist is the new 3v3 league with 30 of the best players (but no CC yet). I don't think today's players have any sympathy for the years of losses up to this point, but if I was a backer I'd feel entitled to a higher portion of the profits that are finally here as payback for some of those. TNT also only needed to pay ~$8 million a year to pay all 30 players at least the WNBA max of $250k (plus equity) for much less work and travel, and if they've got that as a fallback those top players may be a lot less willing to compromise on a smaller graduated pay increase for the WNBA. None of this happens until after next season, so I don't see any deal getting worked out in that time and both sides getting a data point on how that league does TV rating wise and whether the WNBA can capitalize on the recent popularity surge or if it still stays really Caitlin Clark centric.

The team's valuations have skyrocketed in just the past few years. Mark Davis bought the Aces for $2 million back in 2021 and they're probably worth around $150m-$200m now.

Seems like that should be factored into their "lack of profits".

[Atocep]

Holy shit

South Florida basketball coach Amir Abdur-Rahim dies at age 43 - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/41986570/south-florida-basketball-coach-amir-abdur-rahim-dies-age-43)

[GrantDawg]

Very sad. The guy was an up and comer.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[miami_fan]

For a brief, blissful span, USF’s Amir Abdur-Rahim stole Tampa’s heart (https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bulls/2024/10/25/remembering-usf-amir-abdur-rahim-death-complications-surgery-kennesaw-state/)

I know a lot of the anecdotes like buying coffee for everyone in line at the campus coffee shop and taking food to the local shelter aren't unique to Abdur-Rahim but I still appreciate them.

[Ksyrup]

I can only assume someone saw the State Farm Fitzpatrick statue commercial and said hold my beer because that's maybe a really old Lawrence Fishbourne but it's most definitely not Dwyane Wade:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="zxx" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/JPPnWK3fd7">pic.twitter.com/JPPnWK3fd7</a></p>&mdash; Harrison Faigen (@hmfaigen) <a href="https://twitter.com/hmfaigen/status/1850667106565558549?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 27, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[flere-imsaho]

He can take solace in the fact that the Ronaldo one was way, way worse.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/480/cpsprodpb/1424D/production/_95390528_ronaldobust.jpg.webp

[Thomkal]

Coastal Carolina started off the season with a 60-56 win against W. Michigan. This was the first game with the new head coach and such a difference than Cliff Ellis-30 to 40 years younger, full of energy, engaging with the students and public. Hope it the start of some good basketball for the team.

[Ksyrup]

FSU basketball started the year with a win and has now matched the FB team's win total on November 4th. I was hoping they'd win more games than the FB team this year, but didn't think it would happen before Thanksgiving.

[Atocep]

The Pistons beat the Lakers for their 3rd win on the year. Last year their 3rd win came on December 30th.

[Ksyrup]

I will NEVER understand this shit, even though it will continue to happen year after year after year. WHY?

UF basketball coach accused of sexual harassment and stalking (https://www.alligator.org/article/2024/11/uf-basketball-coach-accused-of-sexual-harassment-and-stalking)

[dubb93]

Indiana really should consider leaving Coach Woodson in the Bahamas.

[Atocep]

WVU hired Darian DeVries to replace Eilert/Huggins. I had it as an A+ hire at the time. I liked him better than Dusty May and a couple other higher profile guys. He brought in an entirely new roster with the lone returning player redshirting this year and was picked to finish 13th in the Big 12. All they did this week was go to the Bahamas, knock of Gonzaga in OT, lose to Louisville in OT, and then beat Arizona in OT. Depth is still a major issue so anything that stresses depth could result in a 13th or so place finish in conference play but the transition has been a success so far. No more outdated offense playing 2 bigs and trying work the ball into the post while everyone stands around. No more trying defend an entire half of the court. Ball movement, spacing, and shooting are lightyears ahead of what people in Morgantown have been watching for the past 15 years.

[miami_fan]

Woj dropping the most massive Woj bomb today that he is retiring to go work for St Bonaventure. Helluva run.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/adrian-wojnarowski-next-chapter

This is a really good profile on Woj and his decision to walk away from ESPN especially as a man in his mid 50's.

[Ksyrup]

Given the game tipped after 10pm, I don't feel too bad for missing UK's comeback win over Gonzaga last night. They were down 50-34 at half playing without Lamont Butler and it was like 11:15 and I have a long run planned for this morning. So we took the dogs out and went to bed. Woke up this morning to an OT win.

[SirFozzie]

Great article about Lonzo Ball's 1000 day injury, and what it took for him to get back on the floor. If I read the article right, this surgery hadnever been done on an athlete before.

Inside Lonzo Ball's unprecedented 1,000-day return to the NBA - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/42762320/inside-lonzo-ball-unprecedented-1000-day-return-nba)

[flere-imsaho]

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/adrian-wojnarowski-next-chapter

This is a really good profile on Woj and his decision to walk away from ESPN especially as a man in his mid 50's.

Great read. Highly recommended for (at least) all of us in our 50s.

[INDalltheway]

Given the game tipped after 10pm, I don't feel too bad for missing UK's comeback win over Gonzaga last night. They were down 50-34 at half playing without Lamont Butler and it was like 11:15 and I have a long run planned for this morning. So we took the dogs out and went to bed. Woke up this morning to an OT win.

This was a great game. I really like Kentucky's team. They feel like quite the opposite of what Cal had been rolling out there the last several years.

[Lathum]

Wtf is up with the nba schedule this week? One game last night, 2 today and tomorrow and three Thursday.

[Ksyrup]

NBA Cup is back on tonight.

[sovereignstar v2]

NBA Cup is back on tonight.

https://media.tenor.com/na_KC-WhMGoAAAAe/monty-python-and-the-holy-grail.png

[Atocep]

This was a great game. I really like Kentucky's team. They feel like quite the opposite of what Cal had been rolling out there the last several years.

Cal got exposed a bit once everyone else could buy talent as well. He also really missed Kenny Payne. He was the player development guy for Cal.and is back with him at Arkansas.

[JPhillips]

Giannis has scored 20 or more points on 50% or better shooting in every game so far this year.

[miami_fan]

I absolutely hate these sideline interviews for NBA coaches but I want the NBA to force Tom Thibodeau to do one at the beginning, in the middle and the end of every quarter.

[Atocep]

Today I learned about Parker Fox, who was in the same high school graduating class as Trae Young but is in his 8th year in college and currently playing at Minnesota.

[sovereignstar v2]

Yeah. Redshirt year, COVID year, and two completely lost seasons because of major knee injuries

[flere-imsaho]

I hope that's all scholarship or his parents are loaded.

[Ksyrup]

One of the early presents from watching CBB this year is seeing Doug Gottlieb getting embarrassed. And the self-owns. I know GB is a tough school to attract coaching or player talent to, but giving an asshat a HC job and letting him remain as a talk show host was never a good idea.

I'm glad he's not having any success. His team just lost to a DII school after referring to smaller/lesser opponents as Nobody U and is on an 8-game losing streak. D'OH!

[miami_fan]

One of the early presents from watching CBB this year is seeing Doug Gottlieb getting embarrassed. And the self-owns. I know GB is a tough school to attract coaching or player talent to, but giving an asshat a HC job and letting him remain as a talk show host was never a good idea.

I'm glad he's not having any success. His team just lost to a DII school after referring to smaller/lesser opponents as Nobody U and is on an 8-game losing streak. D'OH!

I will be shocked if this experiment does not end in a close to violent manner.

[GrantDawg]

My nephew is at church this morning with his "Official Voice of the Hawks" pin on. Show off.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Atocep]

Kings fire Mike Brown.

I'm not sure which is crazier, the fact that he keeps getting chances or that he's a 2 time coach of the year.

[Atocep]

WVU gets its first ever win at Allen Fieldhouse while missing 2 starters. 21-6 free throw disparity, which is just how it goes there. DeVries now has a neutral site win over Gonzaga and a road win over Kansas prior to the new calendar year.

[miami_fan]

Kings fire Mike Brown.

I'm not sure which is crazier, the fact that he keeps getting chances or that he's a 2 time coach of the year.

Why have owners gotten so bad at firing coaches?! I get that he is just a guy to the management but damn. How the hell do you fuck up firing a coach that has lost 14 of the team's last 20 games?!

Mike Brown will be fine. My guess is his best role is as the associate head coach of a really good to great team but I would not be surprised to see him lead another young team to a first time in a while playoff appearance like he did for the Kings.

[Atocep]

Why have owners gotten so bad at firing coaches?! I get that he is just a guy to the management but damn. How the hell do you fuck up firing a coach that has lost 14 of the team's last 20 games?!

Mike Brown will be fine. My guess is his best role is as the associate head coach of a really good to great team but I would not be surprised to see him lead another young team to a first time in a while playoff appearance like he did for the Kings.

He seems to excel at coming in and changing culture within the first year or 2 but then he's more or less maxed out. He'd be an invaluable guy to have on staff with a young head coach but he's had enough success to keep getting head jobs and then let go.

[miami_fan]

He seems to excel at coming in and changing culture within the first year or 2 but then he's more or less maxed out. He'd be an invaluable guy to have on staff with a young head coach but he's had enough success to keep getting head jobs and then let go.

In football terms, he needs a good OC. His specialties are defense and culture but his offenses are extremely basic. But he is not a Tom Thibodeau either.

[SirFozzie]

Heat suspend Jimmy Butler seven games for "conduct detrimental".

But HeAt CuLtUrE, amiwrite?

Jimmy Butler suspended for 7 games by Heat for ‘conduct detrimental to the team’ - The Athletic (https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6036606/2025/01/03/jimmy-butler-suspended-heat-trade-request/)

[JonInMiddleGA]

$48.8m this year but he's lost his smile.

Wanted out of Philly ... wanted out of Minnesota before that. And Chicago was ready to see him gone before that.

At some point, maybe the problem isn't the clubs.

[miami_fan]

It was impossible for Cooper Flagg to live up to the hype that people had for him coming into this season. He is definitely a very good player and talent. He may still be the future #1 pick in the upcoming draft. But a generational talent? I'm not seeing it at this point.

[Atocep]

It was impossible for Cooper Flagg to live up to the hype that people had for him coming into this season. He is definitely a very good player and talent. He may still be the future #1 pick in the upcoming draft. But a generational talent? I'm not seeing it at this point.

He just turned 18 a couple weeks ago so he's young for the class. I still see NBA all star talent. I don't think anyone else is going to challenge him to go number 1 either. Ace Bailey has skill and talent but his shot selection is awful and he's struggled to make a significant impact with Rutgers. Harper is probably the 2nd best prospect right now but I think there's still a gap between him and Flagg, especially once you factor in he's nearly a fill year older.

[Ksyrup]

HOLY CRAP!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">LARGEST COMEBACK IN NCAA WOMEN’S BASKETBALL HISTORY‼️<a href="https://twitter.com/Pitt_WBB?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Pitt_WBB</a> completed a 32-point deficit to defeat SMU 😮 <a href="https://t.co/ddseLfcHUO">pic.twitter.com/ddseLfcHUO</a></p>&mdash; ACC Network (@accnetwork) <a href="https://twitter.com/accnetwork/status/1878555770121232556?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 12, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[SirFozzie]

Hell is being a neutral fan at the UMass-Fordham game.

120-118 in triple OT. Sounds exciting right?

NOPE! (sorry Balatro, I'm stealing that)

Diggins, UMass rewrite record books in 3OT win vs. Fordham - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/43434033/diggins-umass-rewrite-record-books-3ot-win-vs-fordham)

79 Fouls, 122 Free Throws, 9-10 players fouled out, Someone fouled on a last second OT heave (literally 1 second to go from half court), and the three FT's made the game go to a 2nd OT.

[Ksyrup]

Still shorter than a pre-pitch clock Yankees/Red Sox game.

[Atocep]

He won't win it, but Darian DeVries should be NCAA Men's coach of the year.

0 returning minutes and picked to finish 13th in the Big 12. He now has a neutral court win over then #3 Gonzaga, a road win over then #7 Kansas, and now a home win over #2 Iowa State.

[Solecismic]

$48.8m this year but he's lost his smile.

Wanted out of Philly ... wanted out of Minnesota before that. And Chicago was ready to see him gone before that.

At some point, maybe the problem isn't the clubs.

As he's starting his third suspension, can someone explain to me why Phoenix seems to want him?

I get that the NBA is a plug-and-play league and he has skills, but what makes anyone think a player earning $50 million a year who refuses to show any loyalty to the team concept is going to magically show loyalty anywhere else?

In the NFL, most teams seem to understand that and players who earn the big payday want to win right where they are. The Deshaun Watson experience is unique there, and it's likely teams will be even more careful about players who threaten to sit out after being paid from now on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As he's starting his third suspension, can someone explain to me why Phoenix seems to want him?

"But it'll be different HERE"

Aside from that, it kinda smacks of a bit of desperation. They're apparently urgently hoping to unload Bradley Beal, you've got Nurkic saying he has "NO relationship" with Budenholzer so he's on his way out too.

They might actually be a destination for Butler where he wouldn't be that much more strife than they already have

[miami_fan]

As he's starting his third suspension, can someone explain to me why Phoenix seems to want him?

I get that the NBA is a plug-and-play league and he has skills, but what makes anyone think a player earning $50 million a year who refuses to show any loyalty to the team concept is going to magically show loyalty anywhere else?

In the NFL, most teams seem to understand that and players who earn the big payday want to win right where they are. The Deshaun Watson experience is unique there, and it's likely teams will be even more careful about players who threaten to sit out after being paid from now on.

Jimmy Butler has been on the Heat since 2019. There have been relatively zero issues until this year, so he has shown some loyalty during this time. I am not defending his current actions just stating his loyalty record to this point.

Why would Phoenix want him? The same reason the Heat gotten him in 2019. Under the right circumstances, Butler can be loyal and he can help get that team to the Finals. What are the right circumstances? Well for the Heat, there was a chance to win an NBA title, a 4 year $140M contract when he was initially traded from the Sixers and then a 3 year $146M extension after that. Next year, he has a player option but I am guessing he has received assurances of another extension if he is traded to the Suns. I don't think he will play beyond 40 years old so a tow or three year extension would probably insure his loyalty for at least the next two.

[miami_fan]

I have spent most of my TV watching this afternoon watching various college basketball games. In a complete reversal of what I have seen in recent years, teams are looking pretty good running their offenses. Not saying the shooting has improved that much but the teams are actually running half court sets that involve more than one pick. If the offense breaks down however, yikes. Outside of a select few, it seems like we have finally gotten successful one on one basketball out of the college game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sources - Mavericks trading Doncic to Lakers for Anthony Davis - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/43659380/sources-mavericks-trading-doncic-lakers-anthony-davis)

[Atocep]

I thought this was fake at first. The most stunning trade I can think of in recent memory.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's "if it happened in a video game you'd be ready to return the game as broken" caliber insanity

[RainMaker]

You know it's bad when everyone assumed Shams account was hacked when it posted.

[Atocep]

Wait, the Mavs approached the Lakers with this offer? 28 NBA teams probably found out Luka was available when the trade news broke.

[Danny]

Lakers arent contenders this year but this gives them a chance to build one over the next several years. They were on the verge of needing a tear down. Ill take it.

[GrantDawg]

I still don't get it. If you are willing to trade Doncic (which seems crazy in the first place), why wouldn't you try to get more than that? I honestly don't know what because I'm having a hard time imagining the motivation. He is a guy you build around, and he is only 25. Unless he was threatening to go back to Europe, why would you ever trade him?

[GrantDawg]

I will say I'm getting a good laugh out of Hawks fans celebrating that "we won the 2018 trade".

[Ksyrup]

I read an recent article about Woj retiring and there was a part where he said he was still being offered tips on deals. I wonder if he actually would have gotten this before Shams if he wanted it. Maybe it wouldn't have been such a shock if he was still doing his thing.

I don't know how serious the LeBron trade stuff was, and I guess they can at least see how 2 ball hog players work together before making an off-season deal for the rest of this year. But I still think he ends up with Curry for a last gasp shot at a title, and the Lakers move on to the next superstar era.

[Sweed]

Lakers arent contenders this year but this gives them a chance to build one over the next several years. They were on the verge of needing a tear down. Ill take it.

As a Laker fan this may have me tune into a game or two. Having said that, I've pretty much quit watching NBA games over the last few years. Between the 100 threes per game and not knowing the young players coming in because they don't play college ball long enough to be seen, my interest has gone to almost zero. If NIL money improves this "never see them play" problem I could see myself coming back. It's pretty bad when I know more of the women in the WNBA draft than I do men in the NBA draft.

Great deal for LA, good deal for Dallas as I think a healthy AD (can he stay healthy?) gives them a better chance to win a title now. Take that with a grain of salt. As I said I've barely watched the league in the last few years so may be speaking out of my ass. :lol:

[dubb93]

I read that Dallas was tired of Luka’s conditioning issues and believe it’s playing a part in his injuries. They said at one point this season his weight ballooned to 260 and delayed a return from injury. I’ll be honest I don’t follow Dallas much and always thought he just had a body type that made him look heavier than he is. Is his weight and conditioning a legit concern?

[GrantDawg]

Back to real basketball, the Indiana Fever just signed DeWanna Bonner to go with recently acquired Sophie Cunningham and Natasha Howard. They are putting together a team for a run.

[Ksyrup]

Funny enough, the Athletic just did a feature on athletes with "dad bods." Doncic was up there with Mahomes as the example of elite athletes without the DK Metcalf physique.

[Sweed]

Back to real basketball, the Indiana Fever just signed DeWanna Bonner to go with recently acquired Sophie Cunningham and Natasha Howard. They are putting together a team for a run.

Can't wait for the season to start. Good lord did I just say that about the WNBA? Yes, yes I did. :cool:

[wustin]

I read that Dallas was tired of Luka’s conditioning issues and believe it’s playing a part in his injuries. They said at one point this season his weight ballooned to 260 and delayed a return from injury. I’ll be honest I don’t follow Dallas much and always thought he just had a body type that made him look heavier than he is. Is his weight and conditioning a legit concern?

Weight and conditioning has been a public issue for him since the Tokyo Olympics, he's been 260-270 since 2021. He's been to the WCF in 2022 and the finals in 2024. He can singlehandedly win playoff games on his own, who cares if he's fat?

All of the hit pieces coming out is damage control for the awful trade.

Mavs got better defensively but their offense is gonna suck now. Their best players except for Kyrie are all non-ball handlers/playmakers. They're gonna play like a mid-2000s team.

[GrantDawg]

Can't wait for the season to start. Good lord did I just say that about the WNBA? Yes, yes I did. :cool:
You are not alone, and it is crazy how much I'm looking forward to it. Since I can't get the Braves on television with any regularity, the WNBA has basically taken second place behind football in my sports interest. If you would have told me that ten years ago I would have thought you were nuts.

[SirFozzie]

The thing that gets me most about the trade is how out of the blue it was. No one leaked it, we didn't have days of them waffling.. I'm shocked that a trade of this magnitude happened without someone telling Luka or LeBron (or AD) ahead of time with them attempting to push it through or stopping it.

For all the talk of LeBron GMing, the fact that this came out of the blue to him has to put paid to that, right?

edit: The Mavs GM apparently thanked the Lakers in the press conference for not letting other NBA teams know that Luka was available for trade.
edit 2: This move cost Luka nearly $100 million in guaranteed money.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/luka-doncic-contract-lakers-trade-takes-largest-nba-deal-ever-off-table-but-he-could-eventually-get-400m/

[bhlloy]

Quite the flex to thank the other team for ensuring you didn't get the most value you could. I guess they were really worried if it broke he'd shut it down and demand to pick his destination... but just bizarre to take one of the most valuable assets in the entire league and bid in secret against yourself.

Also the endorsements he'll get in LA and as a Laker will dwarf that Supermax money, I would think.

[miami_fan]

You know it's bad when everyone assumed Shams account was hacked when it posted.

A number of people did not believe even after he reposted the trade saying "This is real". I guess it is fine when it is about a silly NBA trade.

Wait, the Mavs approached the Lakers with this offer? 28 NBA teams probably found out Luka was available when the trade news broke.

This feels like Dallas wanting to get the best player possible without all the speculation that waiting until Thursday would bring. Davis was 2nd team All NBA. They could have gotten a lesser player and more draft capital but I think that goes over worse with the fanbase.

I read that Dallas was tired of Luka’s conditioning issues and believe it’s playing a part in his injuries. They said at one point this season his weight ballooned to 260 and delayed a return from injury. I’ll be honest I don’t follow Dallas much and always thought he just had a body type that made him look heavier than he is. Is his weight and conditioning a legit concern?

I do think conditioning is a legitimate grip for the Mavs to have. Who does not want their star player to be in the best possible shape? I would say the same thing about Jokic as well. However, Jokic has a few MVPs, a NBA title and still does not have a teammate who has been an All Star while playing with Jokic.

Is it a guarantee that Luka would play at a higher level than he already is if he got in better shape? No but I doubt it makes him worse.

Is it a guarantee that Luka would get injured less often if he were in better shape? No but I doubt getting in better shape makes it more likely.

It is also quite possible that Luka is never going to look like Karl Malone or LeBron and still goes on to have a HOF career. filled with NBA titles. To be clear, I would have had no problem giving Luca the supermax and hoping that eventually a 26,27,28 year old Luka eventually gets himself in better shape. Especially, if the alternative is counting on the health records of Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving.

[miami_fan]

Per Shams,

De'Aaron Fox to the Spurs to team up Victor Wembanyama.

Zach LaVine to the Kings to team up with DeMar DeRozan (again)

And the Bulls might be getting their top 10 protected pick from the Spurs.

EDIT: Full Trade.

Full trade:

Spurs: De'Aaron Fox, Jordan McLaughlin

Kings: Zach LaVine, Sidy Cissoko, three first round picks (2025 CHA, 2027 SAS, 2031 MIN), three second round picks (2025 CHI, 2028 DEN, 2028 own back)

Bulls: Zach Collins, Tre Jones, Kevin Huerter, their own 2025 pick via SAS

[Atocep]

Solid trade for the Kings and Spurs. I'm still not entirely sure what the Bulls are doing.

[Ksyrup]

This one's not a surprise at all. Fox to Spurs was the expectation.

[miami_fan]

The thing that stands out so far are teams who have decided that they are not signing their star to a max extension and are moving on from them early. I disagree with what the Mavs did but if you don't want to sign Luka to a supermax extension, I think moving him early makes sense. Same for the Kings and Fox.

There is still time but I also have no clue what the Bulls are doing. This tidbit from Elias Schuster who cover the Bulls is stunning. Even the most average
NBA front offices get a 1st round pick for one of the the floor sweat mop.

The Bulls have traded DeMar DeRozan, Zach LaVine, & Alex Caruso for ...

- Josh Giddey
- Kevin Huerter
- Zach Collins
- Tre Jones
- Chris Duarte
- Two Second-Round Picks
- Rights to their OWN 2025 first-round pick

Not a single additional first-rounder was acquired. Unbelievable.

[Solecismic]

My theory is that Trump's a Lakers fan, and he threatened tariffs against the Mavs.

[Ksyrup]

How do you contact just one team about trading for Doncic - and publicly admit it! - as if you don't have one of the most valuable trade chips in NBA history? When people talk about sports being rigged, this is the exact kind of story you think about. The Lakers need a transcendant star to take LeBron's place. And as good as Davis is, he's really not that guy. And all of a sudden, a team offers you a 25 year old superstar with no escalated bidding required. How does that not smack of "keep the Lakers relevant"?

I don't care how much you like Davis, and apparently there's some connection there that goes back years. You make the best deal for your team. And that necessarily involves multiple interested teams, which there would have been. Just bizarre.

[albionmoonlight]

Right?

Even if your internal thinking was "We really want Davis," you still create a bidding war and at least probably squeeze another first rounder out of the Lakers.

[dubb93]

My theory is that Trump's a Lakers fan, and he threatened tariffs against the Mavs.

Mavs have an inside line to Trump and he's going to deport Doncic since he can't stay healthy and work his green card is getting torn up.

[weegeebored]

There is still time but I also have no clue what the Bulls are doing. This tidbit from Elias Schuster who cover the Bulls is stunning. Even the most average
NBA front offices get a 1st round pick for one of the the floor sweat mop.How does Karnišovas still have a job? Oh, I know. It's because the team owner doesn't give a shit. Reinsdorf loves to keep incompetent GMs/Operations guys waaay too long (see Paxson, Foreman, and probably Krause; also see the White Sox :banghead: ). This kind of incompetence from bad owners makes you wonder how they were successful enough in other ventures to afford a professional sports team.

[miami_fan]

How do you contact just one team about trading for Doncic - and publicly admit it!

You make the best deal for your team. And that necessarily involves multiple interested teams, which there would have been. Just bizarre.

Which should tell all of us that the Mavs believe that what was best for the team was getting Luka out of that organization NOW and with as little complications as possible.

If this were some other media markets, we would have already gotten the hit pieces about how terrible a teammate/human being Luka was in order to justify the move.

[Kodos]

Can't wait for the season to start. Good lord did I just say that about the WNBA? Yes, yes I did. :cool:

With football just about over, I'm already looking forward to the WNBA. Strange times!

[bhlloy]

Which should tell all of us that the Mavs believe that what was best for the team was getting Luka out of that organization NOW and with as little complications as possible.

If this were some other media markets, we would have already gotten the hit pieces about how terrible a teammate/human being Luka was in order to justify the move.

The Athletic article today basically confirms that first paragraph. Essentially they reached out to the Lakers and one other team to try to gauge interest and over a few weeks, the Lakers said they were only going to give the one first rounder and AD and the Mavs were so worried they would walk away and it would leak leading to a disgruntled Luka that they announced it as fast as they could.

And they will end up paying (an injury prone) AD a Supermax through the age of 37 rather than paying Luka a Supermax through the age of 30.

Unless it turns into a championship for them or Luka blows multiple achilles in the next few years, going to go down in the history books as one of the worst and most one sided trades in any sport surely.

[RainMaker]

This is a league where Marcus Morris got like 5 draft picks in a trade. A 25-year old who is arguably a top-3 player entering his prime should command a generation of 1sts plus players. Like would the Lakers have really said no if they had to include the 2031 pick?

I just don't know how you move on from Doncic and don't get like 5 first rounders in any deal.

[bhlloy]

This is a league where Marcus Morris got like 5 draft picks in a trade. A 25-year old who is arguably a top-3 player entering his prime should command a generation of 1sts plus players. Like would the Lakers have really said no if they had to include the 2031 pick?

I just don't know how you move on from Doncic and don't get like 5 first rounders in any deal.

Allegedly they didn't want to include the 2031 pick because they weren't sure they could sign Luka to an extension, but the reality is they were handed all the cards and the power and knew they were dealing with a weak GM and organization.

[Ksyrup]

Leonard Hamilton announced he is resigning at the end of the season. As much as I appreciate everything he did to elevate the FSU basketball program, this is for the best. Things seemed to fall off a cliff following the abrupt end of the 2020 season. That was an Elite Eight/Final Four team. Could never really capture that again, and with NIL and now being sued for allegedly promising some sort of payments (NIL?), it's clear the off-the-court game has passed him by.

[RainMaker]

Allegedly they didn't want to include the 2031 pick because they weren't sure they could sign Luka to an extension, but the reality is they were handed all the cards and the power and knew they were dealing with a weak GM and organization.

Maybe have top 3 protection on it or something. I just don't see any scenario where the Lakers balk at that trade if you have to include a 2031 pick too. They're getting a top-3 player entering his prime! Those guys just don't come around much. Heck, Dallas should have taken all their 2nd round picks till the end of time too.

[miami_fan]

This is a league where Marcus Morris got like 5 draft picks in a trade. A 25-year old who is arguably a top-3 player entering his prime should command a generation of 1sts plus players. Like would the Lakers have really said no if they had to include the 2031 pick?

I just don't know how you move on from Doncic and don't get like 5 first rounders in any deal.

Would the Lakers have really said no if they had to include the 2031 pick? Maybe

As I listen and read more analysis of the trade, the max extensions especially the supermax extension that came into play under the previous CBA are filling NBA front offices with fear. I don't think it is automatic for teams to just sign their players to a max extension anymore.

I know the salaries rise every year and how much you are paid depends on when you sign your deal. Still, as great as Luka is, is he six million a year better on the court than Jason Tatum who also signed his supermax extension with Boston at age 26? Is Luka ten and a half million per year better than SGA who is also supermax eligible this year at yes 26 yes old? Hell, is Luka worth twenty three million dollars per year more on the court than he is on the court with the Lakers with the extension he can sign with the Lakers? Under the new CBA and all the restrictive aprons? That is before I get into whatever the behind scenes situation was with the Mavs.

I'm still not sure I move him but I am beginning to understand why the Mavs would if things were really shitty behind the scenes. As far as opening it up to other teams, it is still the NBA. How much are you trading for two years of Luka before being at his mercy. This article explains what the scenarios for signing Luka will be moving forward.

403 Forbidden (https://www.spotrac.com/news/_/id/2612/next-contract-series-luka-doncic-lakers-edition)

[Ksyrup]

My guess is the Lakers felt like they were taking a chance on Doncic not re-signing with them since he was not being told about the trade and they couldn't talk to him beforehand. So, that likely limited the value they were willing to offer - with no competition, no less. Why bet against yourself?

[wustin]

Kyrie has a player option for next season which he will probably decline. PJ Washington will also be a free agent. And then the proceeding offseasons there is Gafford and Lively. A preemptive move to avoid the second apron in a few years and not pay a 9 digit tax penalty.

The other conspiracy of course is the Adelson family wants to move the team to Vegas since casinos aren't allowed in Texas. Moving Luka is the first step to disengage the fans from the franchise. Dallas and Seattle would then be the expansion teams.

[BishopMVP]

Would the Lakers have really said no if they had to include the 2031 pick? Maybe

As I listen and read more analysis of the trade, the max extensions especially the supermax extension that came into play under the previous CBA are filling NBA front offices with fear. I don't think it is automatic for teams to just sign their players to a max extension anymore.

I know the salaries rise every year and how much you are paid depends on when you sign your deal. Still, as great as Luka is, is he six million a year better on the court than Jason Tatum who also signed his supermax extension with Boston at age 26? Is Luka ten and a half million per year better than SGA who is also supermax eligible this year at yes 26 yes old? Hell, is Luka worth twenty three million dollars per year more on the court than he is on the court with the Lakers with the extension he can sign with the Lakers? Under the new CBA and all the restrictive aprons? That is before I get into whatever the behind scenes situation was with the Mavs.

I'm still not sure I move him but I am beginning to understand why the Mavs would if things were really shitty behind the scenes. As far as opening it up to other teams, it is still the NBA. How much are you trading for two years of Luka before being at his mercy. This article explains what the scenarios for signing Luka will be moving forward.
The new CBA and the hard aprons shouldn't have had any effect on a Luka level decision, 1st team All-NBA guys like him or Tatum making 35% of the cap is a huge bargain not an issue. It's when you have to pay the Bradley Beal's and Damian Lillard's that amount that you're screwed. I can also see the sticker shock of giving someone $70 million a year or $350 million total when he may or may not play 350 games in that timeframe will always be there, but guys like Scottie Barnes are getting locked in for $45 million a year/$225m total and Joel Embiid is already locked in to $70 million in 2028/29. Strange as it is I really believe this was a basketball decision by a GM who doesn't seem like he plans to be there or care where they are in 10 years, but also one that now has a team that I don't think anyone thinks can come out of the West and win a title in the next 3 years. The Celtics have shown we can shoot horribly enough at times to lose to anyone, but a team like us or OKC will get a parade of wide open 3's vs them, AD's individual brilliance can't cover for PJ at the 3, Klay at the 2, Kyrie at the 1.

Overall CBA wise I like most of what it's doing. Like it's a little annoying 2nd apron teams can't aggregate salaries... but teams were abusing that and it should be really hard for a defending champ to maintain depth. The main issue I see is that the pay structure got tilted too much in favor of late career vets, now that it's close to a hard cap teams are starting to play hot potato with those guys, even ones who are All-Star but not All-NBA level. It's increasing star player movement but not sure the players in that age bracket are liking that, walking away from guys is becoming normalized so you can't just get your max money and your pick of destination anymore. But end of the day those are aging players and 2nd/3rd tier guys who used to all get maxes, this is Luka and an idiotic decision by an idiotic GM. They're not just betting on Luka (who has always been a little fat and out of shape as he finishes 1st team All-NBA and carries them deep into the playoffs) falling apart before he is 30, they are betting on Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving being significantly healthier the next 5 seasons.

Like did anyone here look at that Mavs team making the finals run and think Luka was the problem? No, he carried a flawed team to the finals and a loss to a juggernaut and all-time offense. But apparently his own GM thought Kyrie who is 32 and shot like 32% that series and got equally abused on defense is the one to build around. True galaxy brain thinking. :lol:

[wustin]

Dallas losing to Embiid who got a triple double is peak irony.

[Ksyrup]

Butler to the Warriors. They were going to make a deal to shake things up one way or another.

[miami_fan]

Jimmy Butler has been on the Heat since 2019. There have been relatively zero issues until this year, so he has shown some loyalty during this time. I am not defending his current actions just stating his loyalty record to this point.

Why would Phoenix want him? The same reason the Heat gotten him in 2019. Under the right circumstances, Butler can be loyal and he can help get that team to the Finals. What are the right circumstances? Well for the Heat, there was a chance to win an NBA title, a 4 year $140M contract when he was initially traded from the Sixers and then a 3 year $146M extension after that. Next year, he has a player option but I am guessing he has received assurances of another extension if he is traded to the Suns. I don't think he will play beyond 40 years old so a tow or three year extension would probably insure his loyalty for at least the next two.

Jimmy to the Warriors for Andrew Wiggins, Dennis Schroder, Kyle Anderson, and a protected 1st. Jimmy signs an two year $121M extension.

The Warriors now have Jimmy's loyalty.

EDIT: The Pistons also get Lindy Waters from the Warriors and Josh Richardson from the Heat.

[Kodos]

Report is that Mike Woodson has agreed to retire at the end of the season. Hoosiers fans rejoice! As always, Brad Stevens is the guy most people want. Maybe the third time is the charm...


Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

[BishopMVP]

I'd still be pretty surprised if he left now, but his son is a FR at ND and I think his daughter is a JR or SR in HS. I know he didn't want to make his kids move schools again, but if they're both in college and especially if the Celtics win a 2nd maybe he would be up for a new challenge.

[miami_fan]

Report is that Mike Woodson has agreed to retire at the end of the season. Hoosiers fans rejoice! As always, Brad Stevens is the guy most people want. Maybe the third time is the charm...


Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

Does Stevens miss being on the sidelines? Not saying he had declined as a coach skillwise or anything like that. I have always thought that he had reached his limit as a coach as far as the day to day grind goes and preferred the more strategic view of the front office.

[Kodos]

Who knows. I'm hopeful but well aware that we've been through this twice before with poor results. I do know that he is perhaps the only guy who could make the whole fanbase happy.

[Solecismic]

With football just about over, I'm already looking forward to the WNBA. Strange times!

I'm curious about this, and you're not the only one here who has posted about the WNBA. I've never seen a game.

But when I was in high school, I got into it when the sports info department at Michigan was looking for volunteers and I ran the 24-second clock, among other things. Then I ended up with that beat at The Ann Arbor News for a few years. Newspapers were how I paid for college.

So I appreciated the women's game, maybe more than the men's game. Basketball seems to work better when it's not played above the rim.

It has never caught on, though, until maybe now. Is it Clark? Do people either root for her or root against her, but they won't watch a game unless she's playing? TV ratings seem to suggest that's half the audience, at least. Or it something else?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So I appreciated the women's game, maybe more than the men's game. Basketball seems to work better when it's not played above the rim.

Not when the shooting and ball handling is as poor as the WNBA it doesn't.

The women's college game is more often unwatchable than not at this point, and the WNBA seems to reflect that, a general decline in basic basketball skills overall.

[GrantDawg]

For me, it is definitely Clark. She adds a lot of excitement with her passing and shooting skills. It feels a lot like watching Jordan in the day.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[BishopMVP]

Not when the shooting and ball handling is as poor as the WNBA it doesn't.

The women's college game is more often unwatchable than not at this point, and the WNBA seems to reflect that, a general decline in basic basketball skills overall.
Regardless of gender it seems like at a basic level the more you prioritize athleticism and size over skill the worse the product is to watch. Not just because they're less skilled on offense but also because weaker and smaller defenders allow more time and space for others to be creative. But it's really easy to identify the biggest and best athletes and most coaches prefer to think they can coach up anyone with the athletic tools and oftentimes that defensive floor is enough to win/be competitive so coaches will always do it. And then my theory on top of that is that you still don't have as many girls play as boys so there aren't as many players with size and skill weeding out the ones who are almost all length and quickness. The refs also seem to allow much more physical defense in the WNBA or D1 women's games, ticky tack fouls aren't fun but neither are star players going 1/19 and teams shooting 22/72 when they win a title game.

[miami_fan]

Hubie Brown has been associated with the NBA/ABA as long as I have been associated with Earth.

[Sweed]

Not when the shooting and ball handling is as poor as the WNBA it doesn't.

The women's college game is more often unwatchable than not at this point, and the WNBA seems to reflect that, a general decline in basic basketball skills overall.

Have you watched full wnba games? How many? The highlight reels shown of bad wnba plays remind me of Skip Bayless daily running of Russel "Westbrick" bad plays. Westbrook with the Lakers made more bad plays in one game than any wnba player I saw in any game last year.

Watching a men's division 1 college basketball game the other day a 6'10" center shot an air ball from 3 feet. Nobody bodying him and no hand to disturb the shot. I bet if I look close enough I could put together a reel of men's fuckups. These would be cherry picked plays, that same as the wnba fuck up plays have been cherry picked.

The thing that surprised me most about watching wnba last year for the first time, due to Clark, was how fundamentally sound they are. They can't play above the rim but they do play good basketball.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Have you watched full wnba games? How many? The highlight reels shown of bad wnba plays remind me of Skip Bayless daily running of Russel "Westbrick" bad plays. Westbrook with the Lakers made more bad plays in one game than any wnba player I saw in any game last year.

Watching a men's division 1 college basketball game the other day a 6'10" center shot an air ball from 3 feet. Nobody bodying him and no hand to disturb the shot. I bet if I look close enough I could put together a reel of men's fuckups. These would be cherry picked plays, that same as the wnba fuck up plays have been cherry picked.

The thing that surprised me most about watching wnba last year for the first time, due to Clark, was how fundamentally sound they are. They can't play above the rim but they do play good basketball.

I spent quite a few years following the league very closely, as the college game slowly declined (and as the members of the league became one of the most unlikable collections of athletes ever assembled) that interest faded.

I've seen the contemporary version more sporadically, but if I want to watch women's basketball that struggles with shooting, struggles with coaching, with erratic officiating, I can do that with local high schools.

[Kodos]

I'm curious about this, and you're not the only one here who has posted about the WNBA. I've never seen a game.


For me, it started last season. The IU men's team was simply no fun to watch. Their style of play was shitty, and a lot of games they were not competitive. I'd been hearing about Caitlin Clark a lot, so I was like I'll check out the IU women's team. The way they played was much more fun to watch, and they were actually a good, high-effort team. They could actually hit their threes, which nobody on the men's team has been able to do in a lonnnnnnnng time. I especially enjoyed watching McKenzie Holmes, our star center. Since I was enjoying the IU games, I started to watch Iowa games too. Clark was a joy to watch. She just makes these amazing passes, and can hit from everywhere. She has a Jordan-like determination to win. After the season, Dad and I started watching the Indiana Fever games. Eventually, we both paid for the WNBA season pass. After football, women's basketball has become my second favorite sport. It was great to have something to watch through the summer where previously the summer was just a void as far as sports were concerned.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sources - Anthony Davis out multiple weeks with adductor strain - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/43772265/sources-anthony-davis-multiple-weeks-adductor-strain)

Good thing the Mavs got rid of a guy with conditioning and injury issues for such an iron man.

[albionmoonlight]

That's the most Anthony Davis thing to ever Anthony Davis.

[bhlloy]

Sometimes, the narratives just write themselves

[Sweed]

Sources - Anthony Davis out multiple weeks with adductor strain - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/43772265/sources-anthony-davis-multiple-weeks-adductor-strain)

Good thing the Mavs got rid of a guy with conditioning and injury issues for such an iron man.

Lakers!.. Lakers!.. Lakers!.. Lakers!.. :lol:

[Sweed]

I spent quite a few years following the league very closely, as the college game slowly declined (and as the members of the league became one of the most unlikable collections of athletes ever assembled) that interest faded.

I've seen the contemporary version more sporadically, but if I want to watch women's basketball that struggles with shooting, struggles with coaching, with erratic officiating, I can do that with local high schools.

The officiating is the absolute worst. At times I wonder if it's intentional to be used as click bait? Give it that WWF vibe of how are they going to screw the "good guys" tonight. :mild hyperbole: Don't take it too seriously.

Maybe it's because I only watched Fever games, but with Clark and Kelsey Mitchell they shot the ball better than the Lakers. By a lot. :) Hell, those two probably handle the ball better than the men too.

[dubb93]

The officiating is the absolute worst. At times I wonder if it's intentional to be used as click bait? Give it that WWF vibe of how are they going to screw the "good guys" tonight. :mild hyperbole: Don't take it too seriously.

Maybe it's because I only watched Fever games, but with Clark and Kelsey Mitchell they shot the ball better than the Lakers. By a lot. :) Hell, those two probably handle the ball better than the men too.

I’m sure you are just joking a bit here but Clark shot 34% from 3 which was below the Lakers average. Which means most of the Lakers players shot better than she did while being guarded by NBA players.

[Sweed]

I'm curious about this, and you're not the only one here who has posted about the WNBA. I've never seen a game.

But when I was in high school, I got into it when the sports info department at Michigan was looking for volunteers and I ran the 24-second clock, among other things. Then I ended up with that beat at The Ann Arbor News for a few years. Newspapers were how I paid for college.

So I appreciated the women's game, maybe more than the men's game. Basketball seems to work better when it's not played above the rim.

It has never caught on, though, until maybe now. Is it Clark? Do people either root for her or root against her, but they won't watch a game unless she's playing? TV ratings seem to suggest that's half the audience, at least. Or it something else?

Clark playing is what got me to tune in. I'm from Iowa, my son was the offensive coach for West Des Moines Valley while Clark was playing HS ball for Dowling. He'll tell you she was great but they won two state titles and she didn't. ;)

I tuned in to the wnba see how she would do when having to face a much higher level of competition. I thought she would be good, and hopefully good +. I underestimated her. She is already a presence and is just starting to learn the pro game.

I don't know how much of the things you see on youtube to root for, or against her are just click bait. When you watch Indiana playing on the road the crowds seem to like her. As the newness of seeing her wears off I'm sure those away fans are going to hate her the way many NBA fans hated Jordan, Bird, or Magic. As long as that's about basketball skill, that is a great thing and it's great for the league.

[Sweed]

I’m sure you are just joking a bit here but Clark shot 34% from 3 which was below the Lakers average. Which means most of the Lakers players shot better than she did while being guarded by NBA players.

I don't watch a ton of nba (maybe 2 games in 2024) so my last decent sample size for the Lakers would be 2023. Their team 3pt pct that year was 34.6%. Clark matched that percent, and she's a GIRL. ;) She did that as every team played her like it was game 7 of the nba finals.

The Fever last year shot 35.6 % as a team.

Point being Jon was talking about the poor shooting of the wnba. I was, just going from watching Fever games, thinking they shoot better than he was suggesting. I can't say anything about the wnba as a whole. I can say teams playing vs Indiana didn't seem to have a lack of good 3 pt shooters.

Did I say "by a lot"? Yes. Hyperbole? Maybe, but really just more of a feel from watching games. IOW Jon's feel is the women shoot worse than they do. Mine feeling was, at least between Clark and Mitchell (40%), they shoot better than they do. I'm guilty of going by feel, and not digging up the stats before posting. Having said that I think my feeling the women are NOT poor shooters stands. ;)

[Kodos]

Clark’s hit rate on threes is probably a bit lower because she takes so many long threes. I bet if you just count “regular” threes, her rate goes up.

[dubb93]

Clark’s hit rate on threes is probably a bit lower because she takes so many long threes. I bet if you just count “regular” threes, her rate goes up.

Sounds like someone needs to tell her that. The Fever would probably be better if she listened.

[Solecismic]

What's absent from all of these discussions, which have been going on for years now, is that women's basketball uses a smaller ball (circumference is 28 1/2" versus 29 1/2" for the men's basketball - diameter of 9.4" versus 9.1" - the rim has an 18" diameter). More room for accuracy errors. The women's ball also weighs a couple of ounces less than the men's ball.

None of this should discredit what Clark has done to develop a shooting range that boggles the mind, but it's a different game and (I hope this doesn't offend anyone - such a political topic these days) there are huge differences in athleticism and size between men and women.

My contention about the 3-point shot is that there is this line at an exact distance from the basket (that's no longer the case since the line is further away now, and there's no room in the corners). When you start treating it like the free throw line and you develop a routine approach for receiving a pass - getting the footwork right, squaring to the basket like you do for a free throw, you can become more accurate from the exact 3-point distance than just about anywhere else.

Of course, defenders know what you're doing and start contesting that spot, so you can't just sit out there and make 20 of them in every game. The fact that teams still take dozens of 3-point attempts, many of them from right at that line, tells you what's going on.

The really great shooters, like Clark, still have a good percentage when they're not right at that line. For most of us, once you get a foot or so in front of or behind the arc, accuracy goes to hell.

[Kodos]

Sounds like someone needs to tell her that. The Fever would probably be better if she listened.

I'm pretty sure her coach and GM knew what they were getting when they drafted her.

[GrantDawg]

Clark’s hit rate on threes is probably a bit lower because she takes so many long threes. I bet if you just count “regular” threes, her rate goes up.
The thing is, her percentage actually goes up the further away she gets from the basket, which is why watching her is so insane. He 3pt percentage also went up later in the season when she stopped having to force shots as the team got more in sync. Just to put her rookie career in focus:


"She is the first player in WNBA history to finish in the top 10 in scoring while also leading the league in assists (also first to lead in 3PM and assists). To understand how she truly crushed it on scoring + assists, no player in history had ever hit 650 pts + 300 assists; Clark finished at 769 pts + 337 assists. That is a historic level of offensive generation for her team. She is one of three players who finished in the Top 20 in all five major categories: scoring (7th), rebounds (18th and the #1 guard), assists (1st), blocks (17th and the #1 guard), and steals (15th). The other two were Stewie and Phee."


Next year, she is going to have even more talent around her. My guess is her scoring will drop a little, but her assists and 3pt% is probably going to go higher.

[BishopMVP]

Clark's great and she's not the one anyone should call out because her degree of difficulty is higher than almost anyone's but it's just a fact that the outside shooting has been bad in the WNBA. It's down to 33.8% from 3 last year and the league has never topped 35.3%, NBA is at 36% and has consistently been in that range for 20+ years despite the massively increasing rate of them in recent years. People hate men's teams who shoot 3's poorly too, it's only Washington and Orlando shooting below the WNBA's league average and those aren't offenses I'm excited to watch either.

(Also seriously how is Orlando's 3pt shooting % still falling? 3rd worst is at 34%, Washington at 33.1%, the Magic all the way down at 30.4%. They could desperately use a Khris Middleton buyout deal or something, it's ruining that team more than the injuries have.)

The compilations of bad finishing or layups I've ever seen have mainly been Angel Reese lowlight reels. That woman gets too much hate for things she shouldn't but she really is a bad finisher and shooter for how good of a player she is. Kind of crazy she can still positively impact her team so much while shooting 40% at the rim or whatever it is.

[Sweed]

Sounds like someone needs to tell her that. The Fever would probably be better if she listened.

Ah, no. Any coach that would try that should be immediately fired. Their coach last year hinted at this early in the season and was rightly met with a ton of WTF's. The D is pulled out of position just by Clark being on the floor and somebody always having to be close to her. It creates space for others and opens up some of those passing lanes leading to assists for Clark and others, along with many back cuts that lead to easy hoops.

Maybe opposing teams would be wise to not guard her when she's so far away? Pack it in, take away the passing lanes, and dare her to shoot. Yeah, that will go well.

[Sweed]

The thing is, her percentage actually goes up the further away she gets from the basket, which is why watching her is so insane. He 3pt percentage also went up later in the season when she stopped having to force shots as the team got more in sync. Just to put her rookie career in focus:


"She is the first player in WNBA history to finish in the top 10 in scoring while also leading the league in assists (also first to lead in 3PM and assists). To understand how she truly crushed it on scoring + assists, no player in history had ever hit 650 pts + 300 assists; Clark finished at 769 pts + 337 assists. That is a historic level of offensive generation for her team. She is one of three players who finished in the Top 20 in all five major categories: scoring (7th), rebounds (18th and the #1 guard), assists (1st), blocks (17th and the #1 guard), and steals (15th). The other two were Stewie and Phee."


Next year, she is going to have even more talent around her. My guess is her scoring will drop a little, but her assists and 3pt% is probably going to go higher.

Those Top 20 category finishes came with a very slow start as she struggled at the beginning of the season. She'll come in this year knowing what to expect and with an offseason conditioning plan.

She was also pretty much three or drive all the way to the rim. The D was get into her on the 3pt line and if she drives meet her at the bucket. Towards the end of the year she started to work on a midrange pullup adding to her tools. She works hard and is just scratching the surface of what she's going to be.

[RainMaker]

I don't think it's as much a skill issue as it is a math/rules issue. 33% from 3 is still a good efficient rate compared to most alternatives. It just looks ugly.

I think the line should be moved back in both leagues so it only becomes an efficient shot for the most skilled shooters or those with the most open looks.

[larrymcg421]

FWIW, she really improved as the season went on and shot .370 over the last 14 games of the season.

[Ksyrup]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Detroit Pistons have a 46 point lead after 3 quarters. In a regular season NBA game. On the road.

[miami_fan]

Regardless of gender it seems like at a basic level the more you prioritize athleticism and size over skill the worse the product is to watch. Not just because they're less skilled on offense but also because weaker and smaller defenders allow more time and space for others to be creative. But it's really easy to identify the biggest and best athletes and most coaches prefer to think they can coach up anyone with the athletic tools and oftentimes that defensive floor is enough to win/be competitive so coaches will always do it. And then my theory on top of that is that you still don't have as many girls play as boys so there aren't as many players with size and skill weeding out the ones who are almost all length and quickness. The refs also seem to allow much more physical defense in the WNBA or D1 women's games, ticky tack fouls aren't fun but neither are star players going 1/19 and teams shooting 22/72 when they win a title game.

Much like it was in the boys game, I think it is less about prioritizing athleticism and size and more about not prioritizing skill development in all players. Ksyrup spoke on this regarding the officiating but it also applies when it comes to a player's skill. Coaching is just beginning to embrace helping girls in developing all of their basketball skills in the same way they do with the boys now. Remember, it was not that long ago that any boy over six foot six inches by his freshman year in was destined to spend the rest the of his days playing the game with his back to the basket. The only girls who played one on one basketball or playground games like 21 when they were elementary/middle school age were the girls who played with their brothers and their brother's friends or in coed rec leagues. Just like a lot of boys in a similar predicament those girls who could not beat the boys physically, learned to develop their handle to get past the boys, passing skills and yes learn how to shoot from beyond "normal" distances if they wanted to score. When they were place in an organized league, they had to fit into a position and a role. Those skills developed on the blacktop were considered much more taboo in the gym when it came to the girls compared to the boys. It is why most of us love the girls/women's game compared to the men's game. More team, less one on one etc. I don't think it is a coincidence that from Hall of Famers like Ann Myers to Caitlin Clark, Paige Bueckers, and JuJu Watkins, the players who we consider highly skilled speak about playing on boys or coed teams or playing with older siblings.

[Kodos]

Report is that Mike Woodson has agreed to retire at the end of the season. Hoosiers fans rejoice! As always, Brad Stevens is the guy most people want. Maybe the third time is the charm...


Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

Charlie Brown lines up for the field goal to win the game. In his demeanor, one can see that he has been here before. He's known heartache. He's known total, humiliating failure. Yet here he is, daring to try again. He eyes the goalpost one last time and shuffles his feet slightly. He nods to Lucy. Here's the snap. Lucy catches the ball and places it down. She spins it slightly. Laces out. Here comes Brown, he's winding up for a big kick...

[Kodos]

And Lucy pulls the ball again! Charlie desperately tries to kick it anyway and lands on his back with a tremendous thud. His back is broken.

x.com (https://x.com/goodmanhoops/status/1890512582395465906)

Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
BREAKING: Boston Celtics president of basketball operations Brad Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
that he is not a candidate for the Indiana University job.

“I thoroughly appreciate being a Celtic and love the people I get to work with every day,” Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
.

[INDalltheway]

And Lucy pulls the ball again! Charlie desperately tries to kick it anyway and lands on his back with a tremendous thud. His back is broken.

x.com (https://x.com/goodmanhoops/status/1890512582395465906)

Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
BREAKING: Boston Celtics president of basketball operations Brad Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
that he is not a candidate for the Indiana University job.

“I thoroughly appreciate being a Celtic and love the people I get to work with every day,” Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
.
He'll be turning this job down until he's 70 years old.

[dubb93]

Why would he have any interest in coaching IU when he runs an entire professional team? It’s silly that his name comes up every time.

[Atocep]

I know the dunk contest is mostly dead right now, but Mac McClung just had one of the best dunks you'll ever see.

[SirFozzie]

Why would he have any interest in coaching IU when he runs an entire professional team? It’s silly that his name comes up every time.

He's an Indiana legend for what he did with Butler, and everyone still remembers when the Indiana job was amongst the best in the world, and that the pull of the job would be enough to send even legendary coaches there..

Plus some would reason he's tired of running a team and wants to get back to coaching.

[dubb93]

He's an Indiana legend for what he did with Butler, and everyone still remembers when the Indiana job was amongst the best in the world, and that the pull of the job would be enough to send even legendary coaches there..

Plus some would reason he's tired of running a team and wants to get back to coaching.

I'm an avid Indiana fan and have been my entire life but the brand is dead. The top recruits in Indiana go out of state. And all the old heads still expect a national championship every year. I know the NIL budget is huge, but it's not going to be an easy place for someone to come in and win. The best bet is to get someone young with alot to prove because it's going to take quite a bit of work to rebuild this team.

[JPhillips]

Wemby out for the year.

[dubb93]

Wemby out for the year.

Blood clots.

[sovereignstar v2]

Just watched a Hakeem Olajuwon compilation video. He was such an amazing player; very unique and ahead of his time

[Ksyrup]

Flying back from Ft. Lauderdale today, I just watched the end of the Notre Dame/NC State women's game. #1 ND lost in 2OT. It shouldn't have gotten that far though. NC State had a 3 point lead with 5.5 seconds left and 2 FOULS TO GIVE and used neither of them, giving up a tying 3 at the buzzer to force OT. Got lucky at the end of OT #1 when a foul call at the buzzer was waived off as being a split second after time expired.

What moron coach doesn't have his team use fouls in that situation? I suppose he didn't trust that they would foul before the player was in the act of shooting? Seems inexcusable to me.

[miami_fan]

I have not paid that much attention to the Grizzlies this season but Zach Edey has looked pretty good every time I have seen him. Usually we talk about guys getting stronger after getting into a professional weight training program but Edey looks like he has gotten in better shape in terms of his cardio conditioning.

[INDalltheway]

I have not paid that much attention to the Grizzlies this season but Zach Edey has looked pretty good every time I have seen him. Usually we talk about guys getting stronger after getting into a professional weight training program but Edey looks like he has gotten in better shape in terms of his cardio conditioning.

I've watched about every game of his. He has some struggles with bigs that can bring him out and hit the 3 and some PnR assignments. He's been really solid though in general and does things that won't show up in a box score. His screening and the attention he gets from help defenders do a lot for his teammates. I hope they start to give him some post-up chances, but they are so few and far between. His only hope for offensive output comes from his offensive rebounding. You can tell a lot of the Grizzlies have never played with a dominant big before. They don't know how to use him and throw him some of the worst passes you could throw to a giant.

[Atocep]

So is Jokic having the best season ever by a NBA player?

[SirFozzie]

LeBron James is somehow STILL performing clutch chasedown blocks in crunch time in YEAR TWENTY FREAKING TWO OF HIS CAREER AT AGE 40.



Test that man. Not for drugs.. for the fountain of youth.



https://x.com/JoseLAL23/status/1896425666670919994

[SirFozzie]

dola: While Trump et al looked to be the run away winner for "Chutzpah of the Year", the Mavericks are a dark horse candidate gathering steam.

The Mavericks said season tickets will go up by an average of 8.61% next season and the increase is due to "ongoing investments in the team and fan engagement."

Mavericks raise ticket costs, cite 'investments' in team, fans - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44096093/mavericks-raise-ticket-costs-cite-investments-team-fans)

[Atocep]

LeBron James is somehow STILL performing clutch chasedown blocks in crunch time in YEAR TWENTY FREAKING TWO OF HIS CAREER AT AGE 40.



Test that man. Not for drugs.. for the fountain of youth.



https://x.com/JoseLAL23/status/1896425666670919994


There's been little to no drop off from ages 38 to 40 for LeBron. Jordan wasn't the same player his last year with the Bulls at age 34, but was still good enough to win a NBA title and MVP, and that's roughly the level LeBron is playing at now. What he's doing is crazy.

[SirFozzie]

There's been little to no drop off from ages 38 to 40 for LeBron. Jordan wasn't the same player his last year with the Bulls at age 34, but was still good enough to win a NBA title and MVP, and that's roughly the level LeBron is playing at now. What he's doing is crazy.

Plus he has so many more miles on his "odometer" between Jordan's baseball sabbatical, coming into the league sooner, and being six years older

[JonInMiddleGA]

Tone deaf much?

Mavericks raise ticket costs, cite 'investments' in team, fans - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44096093/mavericks-raise-ticket-costs-cite-investments-team-fans)

edit to add: My bad on the post, didn't see that it was already here until I scrolled up slower

[SirFozzie]

Then Kyrie hurt his knee pretty bad, I wouldnt be surprised if he's out a couple months

Edit;done for the season

[wustin]

Mavs are hard capped under the first apron and have burned up the room to sign 10-day contracts and they used their last remaining two-way slot on Kai Jones who only has like two weeks left. They can't sign any more 10-days until April.

Their active roster last night was only 8 players.

[wustin]

Mavs are hard capped under the first apron and have burned up the room to sign 10-day contracts and they used their last remaining two-way slot on Kai Jones who only has like two weeks left. They can't sign any more 10-days until April.

Their active roster last night was only 8 players.

[miami_fan]

Tone deaf much?

Mavericks raise ticket costs, cite 'investments' in team, fans - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44096093/mavericks-raise-ticket-costs-cite-investments-team-fans)

edit to add: My bad on the post, didn't see that it was already here until I scrolled up slower

Tone only matters if you give a shit about the people you are talking to.

[Ksyrup]

This timeline from the Athletic is brutal:


If you were wondering whether things have gotten better for the Mavericks, they have not. Yesterday morning, we got the news that Monday's scary injury for Kyrie Irving was in fact a torn ACL. He’s out for the season. That would normally be bad enough, but something Luka Dončić could overcome. Except I will remind you the Mavericks made the most inexplicable trade in NBA history by sending Dončić to the Lakers, sans trade demand.

The Mavs are going through it. The Mavs fan base is really going through it. Every bit of goodwill GM Nico Harrison built up is long gone. And it feels like when it rains, it pours asteroids.

Before we dive into how much this injury screws the Mavs, let’s go over what happened just over the last 10 weeks:

Christmas: Luka injures his calf in the last game he’ll ever play for the Mavs.
January 23: Dereck Lively II has a stress fracture in his foot.
February 1: Luka is traded.
February 4: Mavs trade Quentin Grimes to the Sixers for Caleb Martin.
February 8: Anthony Davis debuts for Dallas with a monster game ... before suffering an adductor injury.
February 9: Mavs fans ejected for saying, “Fire Nico,” on the jumbotron.
February 11: Daniel Gafford sprains his knee.
February 25: Luka drops a triple-double in L.A.'s win over the Mavs.
March 1: Grimes scores 44 points for the Sixers. Martin has not played for Dallas.
March 3: The Mavs announce an 8.6 percent price increase for season ticket holders.
March 3: Kyrie tears his ACL.

[Atocep]

Idea stolen from somewhere else, but this is crazy:

Lebron's stats JJ Redick's junior year at Duke: 27/7/7
Lebron's stats JJ Redick's rookie year in the NBA: 27/7/6
Lebron's stats when JJ Redick becomes a NBA starter: 27/8/6
Lebron's stats when JJ Redick is a 15 year NBA vet: 25/8/8
Lebron's stats when JJ Redick is a podcaster: 26/8/7
Lebron's stats with JJ Redick as his coach: 25/9/8

[miami_fan]

It is ridiculous to say but outside of the accomplishment itself, winning the title a few years ago has convinced the Nuggets that Nikola Jokic only deserves to win one NBA title with their organization.

[miami_fan]

If the Nuggets (currently up 116-114 with 3:04 left in the 4th) are able to beat the Lakers, this might be the most embarrassing win by an NBA team this season. Neither Lebron nor Luka are playing in the game. All of the Nuggets starters are playing and all are have double digits points. The Nuggets have 35-14 advantage in free throw attempts.

[Lathum]

Dickie V just broke down on the Duke/Louisville game talking about cancer and it hit in all the ways it should.

[Kodos]

Charlie gets up, dusts himself off, and mutters “not this fucking time.” He digs his heel into the ground and stands the football up. He takes two steps back, then two to the side. He eyes the uprights with a steely glare. He strides toward the ball, plants his left foot, and swings his right foot through the ball. It’s away! Up it goes. It’s long enough… It’s… It’s…

[Atocep]

WVU becomes the first team that was a unanimous selection in the bracket project, which tracks 111 bracket projections, to not make the NCAA tournament. UNC gets in as the last team, coincidentally their AD is the chair on the committee.