PING: Astro Fans

miami_fan · 01-24-2006, 08:49 PM

Can somebody explain what is going on between the Astros and Jeff Bagwell? From what I have read the Astros want Bagwell to retire and they are trying to convince him that he is too hurt to play. Bagwell does not think he is hurt and he wants to play. But if he plays then the Astros have to pay his salary as opposed to the insurance company paying all or most of the salary. Bagwell is basically saying the Astros are trying just to push him out to pasture. I know I have probably left out 3/4th of the story. Is it really as ugly as it seems?

LoneStarGirl · 01-24-2006, 08:51 PM

It seems the Astros are getting the insurance money from last year's salary, at least the majority of his salary. The team doctor said he wouldn't be ready to play this season but Jeff is dead set on coming out to Spring Training. As much as I love Jeff Bagwell, I think his career is over, he needs a coaching job for the Stros.

panerd · 01-24-2006, 08:56 PM

Where's that guy that really hates the Seahawks when you need him?

sterlingice · 01-24-2006, 09:50 PM

Boy, this would be an ideal thread for someone who hadn't accidentally posted tubgirl to post here

I had been wondering the same thing. After watching Bagwell down the stretch, I'm not sure he has anything left. But I'm sure what he's thinking is that, well, sure he could use an extra $17M (who couldn't) but also that he's at 449 career home runs and even if he limps his way through 2 more seasons, he's got a decent shot at 500, career Astro and HOF'er.

SI

SackAttack · 01-24-2006, 10:09 PM

Two things here, from my perspective:

1) Sports salaries are never paid with the expectation of future production, but based upon past production and the hope that said production will continue. You aren't giving Peyton Manning 105 million because you're confident he'll throw 40 TD passes every year (or maybe you are, but that isn't the point). You're doing it because he's done it before, and if he does it again, you want it to be for your team and not a rival's.

2) He signed a contract to play professional baseball. The Astros won't let him do that because they want to recoup insurance money. Seems to me that if they aren't giving him the opportunity, couldn't the insurance company have a potential fraud case on their hands? The person being covered says "I'm fine," and the people purchasing the coverage are saying "No you aren't, shut up so we can take the money." Seems like the insurance firm would have at least some ground to stand on there.

Ksyrup · 01-24-2006, 10:16 PM

There's no case for fraud when both sides will have competing doctors for hire that support their argument.

MizzouRah · 01-24-2006, 10:36 PM

Astros suck.

clintl · 01-24-2006, 10:36 PM

Not to mention that insurance companies are the one industry that routinely gives customers the boot. If the insurance company thinks something isn't kosher, it might be the last insurance policy it's willing to sell to the Astros.

LoneStarGirl · 01-24-2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Astros suck.

Dont hate.

...Where is Jeeber?

MizzouRah · 01-24-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Dont hate.

...Where is Jeeber?

He's in the box... Jeebs, Stros suck!!

SackAttack · 01-24-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

There's no case for fraud when both sides will have competing doctors for hire that support their argument.

But when one of those sides is the insured player himself? I have to wonder.

Ksyrup · 01-24-2006, 10:51 PM

But if we're talking about fraud, it would be on the team, since they want the payoff. They would have their doctors (and Bagwell's performance last year) to demonstrate his inability to play. On the other side of it, how do you prove that someone who wants to perform their job and believes they still can, is either outright lying or simply unwilling to accept reality?

This is like the opposite of your typical workers' comp fraud case. If the insurance company's got secret tape of Bagwell building a deck in the backyard and pounding homers out of the park in practice, they'll be using it against his employer, not him. The burden's on the team to prove they are entitled to collect under the policy. Bagwell's insistence that he can play complicates their case and works in favor of the insurer. There's really no fraud, unless there's some actual proof that the Astros are trying to collect without a legitimate belief that Bagwell is finished, which I think is going to be impossible to prove.

sterlingice · 01-24-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

...Where is Jeeber?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Boy, this would be an ideal thread for someone who hadn't accidentally posted tubgirl to post here

Jeebs is enjoying a brief stint in the box currently for the above incident.

SI

JeeberD · 01-26-2006, 10:34 AM

Bah, screw you, Mizzou!

I'm really torn on this issue. The Astros REALLY could use the insurance money to pay for another batter or Roger Clemens, but I hate seeing them push Bags out the door. He's done so much for the franchise that I think you really need to let him end his career on his own terms, not the team's terms.

SI, I really think 500 homeruns is a longshot for Bags right now. He can still swing hte bat, but not with nearly as much power as he used to have. He's more of a contact hitter now, kinda like he was in his early years. Plus, he can't even throw the ball right now. Even playing first base he has to be able to throw the ball. How many at bats is he going to get if he's not starting? Certainly not enough to hit another 51 dingers...

Fonzie · 01-26-2006, 11:03 AM

Welcome back, Jeebs.

sterlingice · 01-26-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

SI, I really think 500 homeruns is a longshot for Bags right now. He can still swing hte bat, but not with nearly as much power as he used to have. He's more of a contact hitter now, kinda like he was in his early years. Plus, he can't even throw the ball right now. Even playing first base he has to be able to throw the ball. How many at bats is he going to get if he's not starting? Certainly not enough to hit another 51 dingers...

I know that, but I'm not sure Bags knows that yet. And it'd be very hard to walk away at this point.

SI

Mustang · 01-26-2006, 12:08 PM

From what I understand, this is a situation that neither side is probably happy about or wants to do but, I believe there is a January 31st deadline to file the insurance claim.

Bagwell obviously wants to go into spring training to prove he can still play.

Astros want to protect themselves and try to recoup the $15+ million. (As much as we like to talk about loyalty and such, it isn't a good business decision to just potentially waste $15M...)

So, each side is just playing the game right now..

IMO, I don't think Bagwell has much left in the tank anyways...

astrosfan64 · 01-26-2006, 04:23 PM

Bagwell is done. He needs to retire gracefully and allow the astros to recoup money for this season upcoming. The astros have been overpaying this guy for the last few years. He is done and has been done. He has never been clutch down the stretch, in the playoffs or for that matter in the late game.

Either way, Bagwell gets his money. If he retires he has a chance to give the team something back after all the money he has stolen over the last few years.

astrosfan64 · 01-26-2006, 04:27 PM

Code:

1997 Houston Astros NL 29 Div MLB 3 12 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 5 0 0 0 0 0  .083 .154 .083 237 
 
1998 Houston Astros NL 30 Div MLB 4 14 0 2 0 0 0 4 0 0 1 6 0 0 0 0 0  .143 .200 .143 343 
 
1999 Houston Astros NL 31 Div MLB 4 13 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 4 0 0 0 0 0  .154 .389 .154 543 
 
2001 Houston Astros NL 33 Div MLB 3 7 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 0  .429 .667 .429 1096 
 
2004 Houston Astros NL 36 Div MLB 5 22 5 7 2 0 2 5 0 0 3 3 0 0 0 0 1  .318 .400 .682 1082 
2004 Houston Astros NL 36 CH MLB 7 27 1 7 2 0 0 3 1 1 4 5 0 0 0 0 0  .259 .355 .333 688 
 
2005 Houston Astros NL 37 Div MLB 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0  .500 .500 .500 1000 
2005 Houston Astros NL 37 CH MLB 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0  .000 .000 .000 0 
2005 Houston Astros NL 37 WS MLB 4 8 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0  .125 .300 .125 425 
 
MLB Totals: 6 years 33 106 11 24 4 0 2 13 1 1 19 25 2 0 0 0 1  .226 .354 .321 675

SackAttack · 01-26-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Bagwell is done. He needs to retire gracefully and allow the astros to recoup money for this season upcoming. The astros have been overpaying this guy for the last few years. He is done and has been done. He has never been clutch down the stretch, in the playoffs or for that matter in the late game.

Either way, Bagwell gets his money. If he retires he has a chance to give the team something back after all the money he has stolen over the last few years.

Your first sentence is likely true.

Virtually all of the rest of it is sublime bullshit.

He earned the contract he's got right now with his performance prior to it. The idea that a guy who wants to play and believes he still can play somehow "owes" the Astros anything - let alone that he owes them a forfeit of the money still due him under the contract - is absolutely asinine.

Bagwell hasn't been up to his usual standard. That much is true. That doesn't mean that attempting to fulfill the terms of the contract he earned and signed constitutes thievery.

Since Barry Bonds missed most of last season, should he have to forfeit the $18 million the Giants paid him, and just hang it up rather than risk a recurrence causing it to happen again?

I hate the Giants with all my heart and soul, and I still recognize that for the asinine, ludicrous suggestion that it is. Let the Astros file for disability if they want to, but to suggest that Bagwell somehow owes them anything with regards to his salary is just ridiculous beyond my ability to articulate.

astrosfan64 · 01-26-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Your first sentence is likely true.

Virtually all of the rest of it is sublime bullshit.

He earned the contract he's got right now with his performance prior to it. The idea that a guy who wants to play and believes he still can play somehow "owes" the Astros anything - let alone that he owes them a forfeit of the money still due him under the contract - is absolutely asinine.

Bagwell hasn't been up to his usual standard. That much is true. That doesn't mean that attempting to fulfill the terms of the contract he earned and signed constitutes thievery.

Since Barry Bonds missed most of last season, should he have to forfeit the $18 million the Giants paid him, and just hang it up rather than risk a recurrence causing it to happen again?

I hate the Giants with all my heart and soul, and I still recognize that for the asinine, ludicrous suggestion that it is. Let the Astros file for disability if they want to, but to suggest that Bagwell somehow owes them anything with regards to his salary is just ridiculous beyond my ability to articulate.

BAGWELL woudn't forfeit any money, so PLEASE learn the facts before you speak. The astro's would just recover the money from the insurance company.

Thank You for learning the facts prior to you speaking next time.

01-24-2006, 09:50 PM	#4
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Boy, this would be an ideal thread for someone who hadn't accidentally posted tubgirl to post here I had been wondering the same thing. After watching Bagwell down the stretch, I'm not sure he has anything left. But I'm sure what he's thinking is that, well, sure he could use an extra $17M (who couldn't) but also that he's at 449 career home runs and even if he limps his way through 2 more seasons, he's got a decent shot at 500, career Astro and HOF'er. SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

01-24-2006, 10:16 PM	#6
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	There's no case for fraud when both sides will have competing doctors for hire that support their argument. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

01-24-2006, 10:51 PM	#12
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	But if we're talking about fraud, it would be on the team, since they want the payoff. They would have their doctors (and Bagwell's performance last year) to demonstrate his inability to play. On the other side of it, how do you prove that someone who wants to perform their job and believes they still can, is either outright lying or simply unwilling to accept reality? This is like the opposite of your typical workers' comp fraud case. If the insurance company's got secret tape of Bagwell building a deck in the backyard and pounding homers out of the park in practice, they'll be using it against his employer, not him. The burden's on the team to prove they are entitled to collect under the policy. Bagwell's insistence that he can play complicates their case and works in favor of the insurer. There's really no fraud, unless there's some actual proof that the Astros are trying to collect without a legitimate belief that Bagwell is finished, which I think is going to be impossible to prove. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

01-26-2006, 10:34 AM	#14
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	Bah, screw you, Mizzou! I'm really torn on this issue. The Astros REALLY could use the insurance money to pay for another batter or Roger Clemens, but I hate seeing them push Bags out the door. He's done so much for the franchise that I think you really need to let him end his career on his own terms, not the team's terms. SI, I really think 500 homeruns is a longshot for Bags right now. He can still swing hte bat, but not with nearly as much power as he used to have. He's more of a contact hitter now, kinda like he was in his early years. Plus, he can't even throw the ball right now. Even playing first base he has to be able to throw the ball. How many at bats is he going to get if he's not starting? Certainly not enough to hit another 51 dingers... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

01-26-2006, 12:08 PM	#17
Mustang Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Wisconsin	From what I understand, this is a situation that neither side is probably happy about or wants to do but, I believe there is a January 31st deadline to file the insurance claim. Bagwell obviously wants to go into spring training to prove he can still play. Astros want to protect themselves and try to recoup the $15+ million. (As much as we like to talk about loyalty and such, it isn't a good business decision to just potentially waste $15M...) So, each side is just playing the game right now.. IMO, I don't think Bagwell has much left in the tank anyways... __________________ You, you will regret what you have done this day. I will make you regret ever being born. Your going to wish you never left your mothers womb, where it was warm and safe... and wet. i am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you are going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainboooow. But! This rainbow is not just like any other rainbow, its...

01-24-2006, 08:51 PM	#2
LoneStarGirl College Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Little Rock, AR	It seems the Astros are getting the insurance money from last year's salary, at least the majority of his salary. The team doctor said he wouldn't be ready to play this season but Jeff is dead set on coming out to Spring Training. As much as I love Jeff Bagwell, I think his career is over, he needs a coaching job for the Stros.

01-24-2006, 08:56 PM	#3
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	Where's that guy that really hates the Seahawks when you need him?

01-24-2006, 10:09 PM	#5
SackAttack Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Green Bay, WI	Two things here, from my perspective: 1) Sports salaries are never paid with the expectation of future production, but based upon past production and the hope that said production will continue. You aren't giving Peyton Manning 105 million because you're confident he'll throw 40 TD passes every year (or maybe you are, but that isn't the point). You're doing it because he's done it before, and if he does it again, you want it to be for your team and not a rival's. 2) He signed a contract to play professional baseball. The Astros won't let him do that because they want to recoup insurance money. Seems to me that if they aren't giving him the opportunity, couldn't the insurance company have a potential fraud case on their hands? The person being covered says "I'm fine," and the people purchasing the coverage are saying "No you aren't, shut up so we can take the money." Seems like the insurance firm would have at least some ground to stand on there.

01-24-2006, 10:36 PM	#7
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	Astros suck.

01-24-2006, 10:36 PM	#8
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	Not to mention that insurance companies are the one industry that routinely gives customers the boot. If the insurance company thinks something isn't kosher, it might be the last insurance policy it's willing to sell to the Astros.

01-26-2006, 11:03 AM	#15
Fonzie Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Illinois	Welcome back, Jeebs.

01-26-2006, 04:23 PM	#18
astrosfan64 College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2004	Bagwell is done. He needs to retire gracefully and allow the astros to recoup money for this season upcoming. The astros have been overpaying this guy for the last few years. He is done and has been done. He has never been clutch down the stretch, in the playoffs or for that matter in the late game. Either way, Bagwell gets his money. If he retires he has a chance to give the team something back after all the money he has stolen over the last few years.

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