Problem with 6.0b (rb total rushes)

[scoman]

Ive just completed my second fictional season with 6.0b and the rb's are getting way to many total rushes,one guy has had 500+ rushes each year , with numerous guys over 400+ rushes per year,the Nfl record is 410 in one season i beleive ,with only 4 guys going over 400 in NFL history.Anyone else seeing this?

[Front Office Midget]

Crap. I just bought the game too, thinking it was totally fixed. *Sigh*

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

Ive just completed my second fictional season with 6.0b and the rb's are getting way to many total rushes,one guy has had 500+ rushes both years with numerous guys over 400+ rushes,the Nfl record is 410 in one season i beleive ,with only 4 guys going over 400 in NFL history.Anyone else seeing this?

Hmmmm...with the dynamic nature of AI gameplans in this new version, I certainly wouldn't be shocked by something like that. However, I haven't seen it so far. I've only run three seasons with 6.0b, so take it with a grain of salt, but the highest I've seen is 438 carries, and only two guys in three years have >400 carries. My first guess as to the culprit would be your injury setting. I always use 200, which Jim says is designed to be the most realistic, and there's little question in my mind that even 200 is less than real life. There were some stats issues in FOF2004 (such as too many QB's getting >4,000 yards in a season) that pretty much went away when injuries were cranked up to 200.

[scoman]

Yeah,that kind of puts a halt to my career,untill this can be addressed.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Front Office Midget

Crap. I just bought the game too, thinking it was totally fixed. *Sigh*

If you ever find a game that is totally fixed, please let me know. I'd love to see it.

[Peregrine]

I've definitely seen some guys racking up a ton of rushes and yards with the new patch, but not to this degree yet at least. I'll have to check when I get home.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Hmmmm...with the dynamic nature of AI gameplans in this new version, I certainly wouldn't be shocked by something like that. However, I haven't seen it so far. I've only run three seasons with 6.0b, so take it with a grain of salt, but the highest I've seen is 438 carries, and only two guys in three years have >400 carries. My first guess as to the culprit would be your injury setting. I always use 200, which Jim says is designed to be the most realistic, and there's little question in my mind that even 200 is less than real life. There were some stats issues in FOF2004 (such as too many QB's getting >4,000 yards in a season) that pretty much went away when injuries were cranked up to 200.

If thats the case then,it seems that 200 should be the default setting then, wouldnt you think? Im about ready for bed now,but ill check that out tomorrow on the 200 injury setting.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

If thats the case then,it seems that 200 should be the defualt setting then, wouldnt you think? Im about ready for bed now,but ill check that out tomorrow on the 200 injury setting.

Well, the problem is that it seems that the vast majority people don't want to play with a realistic level of injuries. If I were the developer, I'm not sure what I'd do about this.

Just ran another season. Max carries=413, with only two guys over 350. I'll run the next one at 100, just to see...

[Ben E Lou]

Oh...and here's what Jim said about it recently:

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I recommend using 100 because a higher injury level is frustrating for people who don't run a football team on a full-time basis. I'd prefer to use it myself. But 200 is designed to be more realistic.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...3&postcount=18

Oh, and WELCOME TO THE BOARD!

[scoman]

Are you getting a semi accurate number of 1000 yard receivers per year with the 200 injury setting?

[Front Office Midget]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

If you ever find a game that is totally fixed, please let me know. I'd love to see it.

The only problems I had with 2k4 were late-game AI, a few slight statistical problems (nothing major), and too many teams losing top players too often.

Obviously, the third one has been addressed (which was the most important, and ultimately why I bought the game).... but if there's an overkill of rush attempts, maybe that would ruin it for me.

I've always played at 100 injury setting. Perhaps I should start going 200? It seems like even with 100 I have some seasons where i have 8 guys out for the year.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

Are you getting a semi accurate number of 1000 yard receivers per year with the 200 injury setting?

Had 18 in my latest season.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Had 18 in my latest season.

Im simming a season on 200,lets see what i get.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Front Office Midget

I've always played at 100 injury setting. Perhaps I should start going 200? It seems like even with 100 I have some seasons where i have 8 guys out for the year.

I think it really depends on what matters most to you. I haven't checked, but I doubt that the LEAGUE totals and averages are far off from reality at 100. My guess is that the issue is just that top-tier players are staying on the field at a significant higher rate than reality when injuries are at 100, so there are more chances for a few much-better-than-most guys to put up big-time numbers. The talent distribution in FOF is done on a pretty much logarithmic scale.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by scoman

Im simming a season on 200,lets see what i get.

1-463
2-452
3-390
4-346
5-345
15 1000 yard receivers

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

1-463
2-452
3-390
4-346
5-345
15 1000 yard receivers

Another question: what season are you in, and if you're early in your career, what roster set did you start with? (I'm fairly certain that both make a difference.)

[scoman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Another question: what season are you in, and if you're early in your career, what roster set did you start with? (I'm fairly certain that both make a difference.)

That was the third season of a fictional league.

[scoman]

I could be wrong but it seems the overall pct. of carries by the first string back needs tweeked a little bit.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

That was the third season of a fictional league.

Yeah. Another factor that may be coming into play here: the career I'm looking at is a mature one, with all game-generated draftees. I've always seen some statistical oddities in the first few seasons of new fictional careers, and Jim recently mentioned something about cohesion being lowered and impacting stats some. It's definitely unusual (but good) in that statistics actually seem to become MORE stable and realistic as careers get longer.

That being said, you're probably right about a tweak being needed so that the top endurance backs aren't getting quite as many carries. Running a couple more seasons at Injuries=200, I'm seeing a guy or two every year get over 400. Certainly not a deal-breaker for me or a reason to stop playing my career. It looks like it is only happening with backs with very high endurance, which is certainly much better than what we saw in FOF2K4.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yeah. Another factor that may be coming into play here: the career I'm looking at is a mature one, with all game-generated draftees. I've always seen some statistical oddities in the first few seasons of new fictional careers, and Jim recently mentioned something about cohesion being lowered and impacting stats some. It's definitely unusual (but good) in that statistics actually seem to become MORE stable and realistic as careers get longer.

That being said, you're probably right about a tweak being needed so that the top endurance backs aren't getting quite as many carries. Running a couple more seasons at Injuries=200, I'm seeing a guy or two every year get over 400. Certainly not a deal-breaker for me or a reason to stop playing my career. It looks like it is only happening with backs with very high endurance, which is certainly much better than what we saw in FOF2K4.

So you think the 200 setting doesnt equal the real life injury numbers? If not what injury number do you think would immulate the real number of injurys?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

So you think the 200 setting doesnt equal the real life injury numbers? If not what injury number do you think would immulate the real number of injurys?

My opinion is that it would probably be somewhere in the 230-260 range. I believe that Jim himself has said that 200 is probably a little below real life. I don't know if you've read this board much before posting, or if you just got here. If you just got here, trust me when I say that injuries have been a long-discussed issue. It seems that the great majority of the people here don't want injuries to be as high as they are in real life.

EDIT: And the group here probably represents the more "hard-core" contingent of Jim's customer base. My best guess is that there's a higher percentage of people here than in Jim's customer base as a whole who would want to play with injuries above 200.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

My opinion is that it would probably be somewhere in the 230-260 range. I believe that Jim himself has said that 200 is probably a little below real life. I don't know if you've read this board much before posting, or if you just got here. If you just got here, trust me when I say that injuries have been a long-discussed issue. It seems that the great majority of the people here don't want injuries to be as high as they are in real life.

Well as far as im concerned,my goal with this game is to immulate the pro game as close as possible and that would include injurys. Ill try simming one on 260 and see what happens.

[JeffW]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

My first guess as to the culprit would be your injury setting. I always use 200, which Jim says is designed to be the most realistic, and there's little question in my mind that even 200 is less than real life.

I agree that 200 is realistic as far as total number of injuries and I used to play with 200 injury level exclusively, but would you agree that there are too many career-threatening injuries(injuries where a player loses substantial ratings) at 200?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by scoman

Well as far as im concerned,my goal with this game is to immulate the pro game as close as possible and that would include injurys. Ill try simming one on 260 and see what happens.

260 isn't an option.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JeffW

I agree that 200 is realistic as far as total number of injuries and I used to play with 200 injury level exclusively, but would you agree that there are too many career-threatening injuries at 200?

Distribution may have been a bit off in the past. I don't have a full feel for it in this version. What's interesting is that with the ability to equalize stadiums at the start of a career, injuries as a whole seem lowered from FOF2K4, even at 200. Every team is starting with "Very Good" turf in my league, which is what I believe is causing the change.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

260 isn't an option.

Lol.yeah i just figured that out,well it seems there needs to be a few tweaks then,ill just wait and see what jim has to say about it,thanks for the help,and glad to be a part of the board.

[JeffW]

Originally Posted by scoman

Well as far as im concerned,my goal with this game is to immulate the pro game as close as possible and that would include injurys. Ill try simming one on 260 and see what happens.

It only goes up to 200, right?

In Single Player mode, I think 200 is fine, but in MP I think it's best to go with a lower injury setting--otherwise I think you end up with high attrition and disgruntled owners.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JeffW

It only goes up to 200, right?

In Single Player mode, I think 200 is fine, but in MP I think it's best to go with a lower injury setting--otherwise I think you end up with players quitting or at least ruining their fun.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that many people use 200 for SP, at least not in the past. If I'm correct about lowered injuries due to better stadiums in this version, I could see more people using it now for SP as time goes on...

[Ben E Lou]

This thread got me curious. Poll posted about injuries:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=54363

[Front Office Midget]

HOLY CRAP!!!

First season I simmed, Shaun Alexander had 550 carries for 2399 yards!!!!!

One other guy over 400 carries, 6 guys over 345. I don't follow the NFL close enough to know how many guys are supposed to be over 345... but I know for a fact 550 carries shatters the record. :P On the other hand, it's good to see a lot more RBs with over 10 TDs.

[JeffW]

Originally Posted by Front Office Midget

One other guy over 400 carries, 6 guys over 345. I don't follow the NFL close enough to know how many guys are supposed to be over 345... but I know for a fact 550 carries shatters the record. :P On the other hand, it's good to see a lot more RBs with over 10 TDs.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...eaders2005.htm

About 3-5 guys/year break 345.

550 is patently ridiculous, though. This was a problem in FOF 2k4 as well--in an MP league someone had 640 carries with TJ Duckett.

I think FOF RBs should have residual effects from running the ball a lot--as the season goes on they should perform more and more poorly relative to their ratings and their chance of injury should increase. To compensate the AI would have to run less with RB1, though.

Right now, I think the way it works is that you have X% chance of NOT getting injured on a play, Y total plays and your chance of NOT getting injured over a season is X^Y. Thus, chance of getting injured at least once is 1-(X^Y).

[Rizon]

I've simmed 6 seasons so far with vB and have had 11 400+ runners, the highest being 462, 2nd highest being 443. 4 of those 11 were in the last year. Injury setting at 100. I'm going to change it to 200 and sim some more, and I'll bet it ends up being close to normal.

[wade moore]

Ok, I decided to finally really dig into FOF2k7... One of the first things I wanted to look at was this...

I really do think this is an injuries/endurance issue.. Here is my reasoning..

Just in my most recent season... Here are the top 10 carries in my league compared to the NFL last season (Note, this is on 100 Injury Setting):

NFL:
1. 370
2. 360
3. 357
4. 352
5. 339
6. 337
7. 336
8. 325
9. 314
10. 309

My League:

1. 473
2. 428
3. 422
4. 417
5. 404
6. 397
7. 364
8. 354
9. 349
10. 334

Pretty out of whack, right?

Look at this...

Team Carries:

NFL:

1. 549
2. 542
3. 531
4. 525
5. 521
6. 520
7. 519
8. 502
9. 488
10. 487

My Season:

1. 575
2. 560
3. 547
4. 541
5. 522
6. 520
7. 517
8. 515
9. 511
10. 493





So...

That's not a lot of average data, but put those two team carries next to each other and it seems very reasonable... this leads me to believe that this revolves around Endurance and/or Injuries. I would tend to think endurance. There was a lot of clamor around not being able to get your RB's carries close to 100% in last version. Well, looks like now you can. People will like that in MP leagues. Is it realistic? Doesn't appear so, but it is what people wanted.

So... I'm not 100% sure whether this is something Jim should "fix" or not. If the goal is to be model to the NFL as close to possible, I'd say it's way too easy for a single RB to get carries. If the goal is for it to be fun and give you control, this may be just right.

I'm going to try this with 200 injuries and see if it is dramatically different.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Ok, I decided to finally really dig into FOF2k7... One of the first things I wanted to look at was this...

I really do think this is an injuries/endurance issue.. Here is my reasoning..

Just in my most recent season... Here are the top 10 carries in my league compared to the NFL last season (Note, this is on 100 Injury Setting):

NFL:
1. 370
2. 360
3. 357
4. 352
5. 339
6. 337
7. 336
8. 325
9. 314
10. 309

My League:

1. 473
2. 428
3. 422
4. 417
5. 404
6. 397
7. 364
8. 354
9. 349
10. 334

Pretty out of whack, right?

Look at this...

Team Carries:

NFL:

1. 549
2. 542
3. 531
4. 525
5. 521
6. 520
7. 519
8. 502
9. 488
10. 487

My Season:

1. 575
2. 560
3. 547
4. 541
5. 522
6. 520
7. 517
8. 515
9. 511
10. 493





So...

That's not a lot of average data, but put those two team carries next to each other and it seems very reasonable... this leads me to believe that this revolves around Endurance and/or Injuries. I would tend to think endurance. There was a lot of clamor around not being able to get your RB's carries close to 100% in last version. Well, looks like now you can. People will like that in MP leagues. Is it realistic? Doesn't appear so, but it is what people wanted.

So... I'm not 100% sure whether this is something Jim should "fix" or not. If the goal is to be model to the NFL as close to possible, I'd say it's way too easy for a single RB to get carries. If the goal is for it to be fun and give you control, this may be just right.

I'm going to try this with 200 injuries and see if it is dramatically different.

I beleive its something that needs to be fixed,although the team attempts seem about right,it seems this is a endurance issue,that needs to be tweaked a little bit.With the setting at 200 the rb's are still getting too many carries.

[jbmagic]

So you think the RB endurance bug in fof 2k4 has been fix in fof 2k7?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

So you think the RB endurance bug in fof 2k4 has been fix in fof 2k7?

Oh this should be fun...

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by scoman

I beleive its something that needs to be fixed,although the team attempts seem about right,it seems this is a endurance issue,that needs to be tweaked a little bit.With the setting at 200 the rb's are still getting too many carries.

Like I was saying, the only reason I say maybe it doesn't need to be fixed is that fixing it might actually make people unhappy. I think you run into a tough situation here where people want THEIR stud RB to carry 100% of the time, but they don't want everyone else's too .

So. Yeah, I'm saying this definitely needs tweaking in order to model what the NFL does. But that some people might be happy that they can now give as many carries to their stud as they want, so maybe from a game perspective it should not be fixed.

If I had my preference as a gamer, it would be fixed, but I side pretty heavily with realism.

Originally Posted by jbmagic

So you think the RB endurance bug in fof 2k4 has been fix in fof 2k7?

I'll go easy on you jb.

Yes, it has been fixed.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by wade moore

If I had my preference as a gamer, it would be fixed, but I side pretty heavily with realism.

To me this fix is a no brainer,as im a real stickler on accurate stats all around the board. I havent seen Jim address this issue yet,but i have too beleive he will want to fix it.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

This thread got me curious. Poll posted about injuries:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=54363

That's all well and good, Ben, but it has recently come to my attention that maybe human polls aren't so credible.

[Northwood_DK]

well played

[scoman]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

That's all well and good, Ben, but it has recently come to my attention that maybe human polls aren't so credible.

Thats a whole other issue,polls have no meaning ,only if they were to have 100% of the vote,which no poll ever does,thats what sucks about college football.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by scoman

Thats a whole other issue,polls have no meaning ,only if they were to have 100% of the vote,which no poll ever does,thats what sucks about college football.

And a Hello, Tim Duncan to you, too.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

That's all well and good, Ben, but it has recently come to my attention that maybe human polls aren't so credible.

I give this a perfect score of 10. Bravo!

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by scoman

To me this fix is a no brainer,as im a real stickler on accurate stats all around the board. I havent seen Jim address this issue yet,but i have too beleive he will want to fix it.

Just by post count I'm guessing you haven't been around for FOF2k4 Discussion..

There was a lot of consternation around RB Endurance in 2k4. A lot of it revolved around people wanting to get their 90+ Endurance RB around 95-100% of the carries. That's what would cause these numbers. Is it realistic? No. But people wanted it.

Anyway, like I said, I'd like to see it more realistic personally.

And, FWIW, as I sim ahead seasons and the league gets more mature, these numbers start to look better. Still off, but better. I have to believe this revolves around talent distributin.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Just by post count I'm guessing you haven't been around for FOF2k4 Discussion..

There was a lot of consternation around RB Endurance in 2k4. A lot of it revolved around people wanting to get their 90+ Endurance RB around 95-100% of the carries. That's what would cause these numbers. Is it realistic? No. But people wanted it.

Anyway, like I said, I'd like to see it more realistic personally.

And, FWIW, as I sim ahead seasons and the league gets more mature, these numbers start to look better. Still off, but better. I have to believe this revolves around talent distributin.

Well to me then,the easy fix would be to have a adjustable endurance setting like the injury setting,have the default setting at the NFL norm,then each user could adjust it ,to get there desired overall stats.That should satisfy all users.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by scoman

Well to me then,the easy fix would be to have a adjustable endurance setting like the injury setting,have the default setting at the NFL norm,then each user could adjust it ,to get there desired overall stats.That should satisfy all users.

Yeah, not a bad idea, but one I don't see happening any time soon... Just from an ease of implementation at this stage. Not trying to speak for Jim, I'm just sayin...

[dubb93]

This strikes me as something that will bother me more at the end of a season than from game to game. And I think I can deal with that actually. The problem may stem from the improved game planning by the AI. I must say, some of my better seasons in FOF2K4 were when I had a young QB surrounded by alot of talent, especially at RB and OL.

In that situation I would run the ball 60-70% of the time and my RB would end up with 2,000+ yard years until the QB developed, but we would still be a playoff team during that run without a real QB. The % of carries a main back is getting aside, it just seems to me that the AI has begun to catch up to the human, and as far a difficulty goes I believe this to be a good thing rather than a bad.

[CraigSca]

In my 11 years with 6.0b, I've had 21 guys with over 400+ rushing attempts. The great majority are in the 400-410 range, and the highest was 468 (and was the highest, by far). While it may need to be tempered a bit, I am not seeing the astronomical numbers in the inital post at all.

One thing I will reiterate, the game-planning by the AI in 6.0b has been eye-poppingly awesome. For SP, it adds a lot as teams have distinctive personalities.

I think it's time to rev up the ol' 40 Years of NFL Music.

[scoman]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

In my 11 years with 6.0b, I've had 21 guys with over 400+ rushing attempts. The great majority are in the 400-410 range, and the highest was 468 (and was the highest, by far). While it may need to be tempered a bit, I am not seeing the astronomical numbers in the inital post at all.

One thing I will reiterate, the game-planning by the AI in 6.0b has been eye-poppingly awesome. For SP, it adds a lot as teams have distinctive personalities.

I think it's time to rev up the ol' 40 Years of NFL Music.

I started my initial season as a fictional league with the injury setting on 100,not sure if thats the difference or not.

[scoman]

I restarted a fictional league ,this time with the injury setting at 200,and ran 5 seasons.First year i had 3 over 400 with a high of 501,then seasons 2-4 there was one guy over 400 each year with 427,434,420,respectively,then season 5 there were 2 over 400 with 422 and 418,so i think the 200 injury setting is much better for me personally,and thats not to far off the norm in the nfl,but i would like to see it tweaked down a little bit,but for now i can live with it.