What cap will he wear in the HOF? II

[Lathum]

This weeks participant is Ken Griffey Jr.

Last week was Roger Clemens who according to FOFC will wear a Red Sox hat with a 58.51% margin. Link below

http://fof.sportplanet.gamespy.com/f...&highlight=cap

[JPhillips]

I'm not sure he's got three years left, so service time with the Mariners probably wins out. If he ends with eleven years for each team it will be very interesting. Most of his stats will have been with the Mariners, but all the milestones, 500 hr, 600 hr, 3000 hits, will have come with the Reds.

[Young Drachma]

He'd be the first Mariner in the Hall of famer? The HoF will send him in as a Mariner, no doubt.

[Atocep]

Does the DL have a hat?


This one really isn't close. Griffey has hit just 165 of his homers with the Reds and nearly 400 with the Mariners. He had also already deteriorated to the point where he was one of the worst CF in baseball by the time he got to Cincinnati, although he was never really much better than average according to every fielding metric.

Griffey has had a largely overrated career. He was a great hitter, especially as a CF, for about a 10 year period but never really was the all-time great some made him out to be.

[stevew]

Very much one of the greatest dissapointments of our generation. Dude should be breaking Hank Aaron's record, and not Barry Bonds. He could be sitting at around 650 Homers right now if he didn't have the injury issues. One of my favorite players of all time though, he was awesome when he was younger.

[stevew]

Very much should go in as a Mariner though. It will be interesting to see what happens with the other two parts of their trio, Arod and Big Unit.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Griffey has had a largely overrated career. He was a great hitter, especially as a CF, for about a 10 year period but never really was the all-time great some made him out to be.

Oh, I beg to differ. Those first five years were magical, and the next five weren't far behind. One of my favorite players to watch ever.

[path12]

Originally Posted by stevew

Very much should go in as a Mariner though. It will be interesting to see what happens with the other two parts of their trio, Arod and Big Unit.

I don't think either of them will (go in as a Mariner, that is). Johnson was pissed at the organization when he left because they were balking at an extension (dipshits), and the majority of fans here still boo A-Rod every chance they get thanks to the bad taste he left......

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by path12

Oh, I beg to differ. Those first five years were magical, and the next five weren't far behind. One of my favorite players to watch ever.

I don't debate the fact that he's one of the best CF to play, but never was in the class of the best players ever. I've seen many argue one of the top 5 ever to play "if he stayed healthy". He had 2 fantastic years and several great years, but he still probably falls outside the top 5 for his position.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by stevew

Very much one of the greatest dissapointments of our generation. Dude should be breaking Hank Aaron's record, and not Barry Bonds. He could be sitting at around 650 Homers right now if he didn't have the injury issues. One of my favorite players of all time though, he was awesome when he was younger.

You look at his career stats and career trajectory, he's about as dissappointing as Mickey Mantle was. Could have been the best ever, instead had to settle for just being a baseball immortal. The main difference being Mickey was a victim of his own making, Junior was just unlucky.

[JPhillips]

With the exception of 1995 when he was injured his 1993-2000 run was magical.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/griffke02.shtml

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by stevew

Very much should go in as a Mariner though. It will be interesting to see what happens with the other two parts of their trio, Arod and Big Unit.

A-Rod has so many more years of his career left. And I really can't see him staying in New York after this year. Sure they love him now in April, but when he chokes up another post-season, they'll be calling for his head. From there, he'll maybe end his career as a Cub for the next decade or so. I think he's mindful of legacy and doesn't want to be bouncing around much more than he already has (not that 3 teams is bouncing around..but still, he's in his prime.)

The Unit? He'll be an interesting one. I have an idea of where it'll be, but..I'll wait for that thread to come out.

[path12]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

With the exception of 1995 when he was injured his 1993-2000 run was magical.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/griffke02.shtml

Yeah, I would put him in the best ever category for the first half of his career without a second thought.

And a sweeping pronouncement like that is what I love best about talking baseball......

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

With the exception of 1995 when he was injured his 1993-2000 run was magical.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/griffke02.shtml

Yes, look at his OPS+ and you see that '93-'94 were absolultely fantastic years. Outside of that he's had a career run that looks like Jim Edmonds run from 2000-2005.

[MikeVic]

He was one of my favourite non-Blue Jay players when I first started watching baseball (around 92-93). One of the earliest stats I can recall hearing was the consecutive-game HR record he had. 8 straight games with a HR, breaking someone's record of 7 games.

[JeeberD]

I feel less bad about trading a Griffey rookie card for an Eric Anthony and Luis Gonzalez now than I did five or six years ago...

[Pyser]

as a casual baseball fan, what the hell has griffey done in cincy? even i remember watching him beat the yanks almost single-handed in the mid 90s with seattle.

mariners cap, no question at all.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by Pyser

as a casual baseball fan, what the hell has griffey done in cincy? even i remember watching him beat the yanks almost single-handed in the mid 90s with seattle.

mariners cap, no question at all.

He beat the Indians several times by himself as well.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I don't debate the fact that he's one of the best CF to play, but never was in the class of the best players ever. I've seen many argue one of the top 5 ever to play "if he stayed healthy". He had 2 fantastic years and several great years, but he still probably falls outside the top 5 for his position.

just for arguments sake, what 5 were better?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by saldana

just for arguments sake, what 5 were better?

Mays, Mantle, Cobb, and Speaker were better without question. I'd also put DiMaggio ahead of Griffey. Duke Snyder is pretty close to Griffey as a hitter, then there's a big dropoff.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by saldana

just for arguments sake, what 5 were better?

That's not very hard .

Mays, Mantle, Dimaggio, Cobb, Speaker - all by a decent margin over Griffey (Dimaggio is closest, but his career OPS+ and Win Shares per 162 out class Griffey, even if you are just comparing the Seattle years)

Though there is a decent dropoff after that and one can make the argument that a healthy Griffey is easily #6. Right now he has to fight it out with Duke Snider for that spot and perhaps some others.

[path12]

I can live with Griffey at #6 in that position. That's a nice group to be associated with.

[EagleFan]

There's no question here, Mariners. I can't even imagine what kind of arguement there could be for him wearing a Reds cap. The numbers aren't even close.

[ISiddiqui]

I think Griffey today edges out the Duke for #6 because of fielding. If you look at their hitting (especially OPS+) they are AMAZINGLY similar. Both had two back-to-back wonderful years with OPS+ in the low 170s (with another season almost as great, with an OPS+ in the mid 160s) surrounded by a number of good to great seasons and then both started having major injury problems. Interestingly enough in both cases it seemed to start with a change in scenery (Griffey left to go to Cincy, while Snider's Dodgers moved from Brooklyn to LA).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

You look at his career stats and career trajectory, he's about as dissappointing as Mickey Mantle was. Could have been the best ever, instead had to settle for just being a baseball immortal. The main difference being Mickey was a victim of his own making, Junior was just unlucky.

There is a bit of difference there. Griffey, even if continuing on his healthy career path wouldn't have been one of the Top 10 ball players of all time. Mantle is EASILY in that list. I'm not sure if Mantle could have ever surpassed Ruth for best ever, though, no matter how healthy... Hell, I'm not sure if Mantle surpasses Ted Williams (though he would have came a bit closer, not accounting for the fact that Williams lost 5 productive years to WW2 and Korea).

[korme]

Numbers wise it is easy. But does the Hall or player pick?

The reason Griff went to Cincinnati in the first place is because he grew up at Riverfront Stadium watching his Dad play for the BRM... so if he chose he might want to go in as a Redleg, but then he'd still probably be objective and realize he's in the Hall because of his days with Seattle.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Numbers wise it is easy. But does the Hall or player pick?

The reason Griff went to Cincinnati in the first place is because he grew up at Riverfront Stadium watching his Dad play for the BRM... so if he chose he might want to go in as a Redleg, but then he'd still probably be objective and realize he's in the Hall because of his days with Seattle.

I thought after the Wade Boggs fiasco the Hall picks. In which case, he's a Mariner.

[Grammaticus]

Well, if he gets to pick..would you pick to wear a Mariners cap?

The stats were definately in Seattle, which is also where he wanted to kill himself.

I guess it will probably be a Seattle cap, but I would rather see a Cincy cap just because it looks better on him.

[tucker342]

Seattle, no question... he may have reached the milestones as a Red but he put the vast majority of his numbers up as a Mariner

[chesapeake]

It doesn't matter whether Griffey picks the hat or the HoF does. He'll go in as a Red. He sees himself as a Red, just like his father before him. The Hall isn't going to force him to go in as a Mariner, especially when the public story about wanting to come home to Cincy is so media-friendly.

Had he won anything in Seattle, maybe a credible argument could be made to the contrary.

FYI, I think Gaylord Perry is the one and only Mariner in the Hall. As I recall, he had a special jersey made up with all 8 logos of the teams he played for when it happened. Maybe Griffey can have a deerstalker hat made with one logo on ehach side.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Well, if he gets to pick..would you pick to wear a Mariners cap?

I would.

[Grammaticus]

Sorry Path, just taking a shot at the Mariners and well, I'm a Reds fan. So just let Pete in alright?

Actually, I just wish Jr. would have made the trek to Cincy about 5 or 6 years earlier. Oh what could have been.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by stevew

Very much should go in as a Mariner though. It will be interesting to see what happens with the other two parts of their trio, Arod and Big Unit.

This is an interesting question indeed. The Big Unit I'd imagine would go in as a Diamondback. Played with them for almost as long as the Mariners now, it's where the most dominant years of his career happened, the World Series MVP, all those Cy Young Awards, his perfect game. Some of his Seattle years were merely pretty good instead of the four Cy Young seasons he put together in a row in Arizona. So this one is pretty simple.

A-Rod....darn. That one is hard. If he stays with the Yankees after this year, one way or another, then he'll probably go in as a Yankee. Only spent 5 full years in Seattle, and 8 or so years in NY putting up 30+ HR a year would allow it to make statistical sense. Plus in New York is where he's gotten the most media attention and really made him the star of the game of baseball. This all assumes that he gets over the playoff hump and the city of New York doesn't hate him when he retires. But if he moves on...it really depends on where he goes and how good he is from here on out. If he plays 8 good years somewhere else -- he's only going to be 32 this winter, and these days players are lasting forever -- he could easily wind up going in as whatever team that is (Anaheim? I refuse to call them by their new name). This would be especially likely if he breaks Barry Bonds's all time HR record whenever he hits number 800-whatever. But if his career farts out in four or five more years...then you'd have a giant mess.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I thought after the Wade Boggs fiasco the Hall picks. In which case, he's a Mariner.

Yup, that's when it all changed. When he was going to go in as a Devil Ray, they stepped in and said "umm..no." That was the final straw, because before..it was all of the horse trading that teams were offering jobs and stuff for players to go in wearing their cap.

Seems kinda silly that they can't choose anymore. But given that the HoF is a museum, it makes sense that they would go ahead and do the choosing, rather than deferring to the player.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

It doesn't matter whether Griffey picks the hat or the HoF does. He'll go in as a Red. He sees himself as a Red, just like his father before him. The Hall isn't going to force him to go in as a Mariner, especially when the public story about wanting to come home to Cincy is so media-friendly.

Had he won anything in Seattle, maybe a credible argument could be made to the contrary.

FYI, I think Gaylord Perry is the one and only Mariner in the Hall. As I recall, he had a special jersey made up with all 8 logos of the teams he played for when it happened. Maybe Griffey can have a deerstalker hat made with one logo on ehach side.

He's not in the Hall as a Mariner. He's the only guy who played for them who is in the Hall. But..he's not wearing a Mariners cap in the Hall of Fame.

There are no Mariners in the Hall. All the more reason why Junior will go in as a Mariner. If he'd won something as a Red, that would make sense. But the work they did to keep that team there and all of the memories we have of him on that team...there is no doubt that he'll bury the hatchet and that he'll go in a as a Mariner.

The player's desire means nothing. Gary Carter wanted to go in as a Met, because it was around the time that the Expos were on the chopping block.

And it didn't matter. The Hall sent him in as an Expo.

[Young Drachma]

Gaylord Perry is in the Hall as a Giant.



http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...ts/players.htm

[Schmidty]

I'm still pissed off at Sparky Anderson for picking the Cincy hat when he was inducted.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The player's desire means nothing. Gary Carter wanted to go in as a Met, because it was around the time that the Expos were on the chopping block.

Interesting point. Neither franchise looks to be at risk of going belly-up like l'Equipe was at the time, but your point is well taken.

I suppose it depends on how MLB wants to sell tickets to this event. Both stories can be (somewhat) compelling. Griffey, Jr. can be the first inductee from a franchise that has none and has deserved fewer (and this is written by a lifelong Mariner fan); or he can be inducted as part of an equally underperforming franchise (in the Griffey, Jr. era), but one for which his well-known father played his most meaningful years, thus making it a nice, family-friendly affair.

Either scenario will get the ink that the HoF likes to get with an induction. Personally, I think the family angle will win out.

[path12]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

Griffey, Jr. can be the first inductee from a franchise that has none and has deserved fewer (and this is written by a lifelong Mariner fan)

God, that is so true. We need an entirely new front office so bad.

[MikeVic]

When I think Mariners baseball, the following names come in to my head:

Randy Johnson
Ken Griffey Jr.
Jay Buhner

[path12]

I loved Jay Buhner. And don't forget the greatest DH of all time, Edgar Martinez. There's your Mariner Hall of Famer IMO.

[Pyser]

mariner fans will get ichiro some day, regardless of their "big 3".

also debatable: edgar martinez

[MikeVic]

Ah, Edgar Martinez. Yeah he screams Mariner too. ARod, not so much (for me personally).

Funny about Edgar... in one of the Baseball Mogul leagues I was in a while back, I picked up Edgar as my 1B even though he was 40 and had a defensive rating D- or something horrible like that. He ended up getting a respectable fielding pct., but his range was horrible. He also had a great offensive season. Hit above .300, OBP above .350, and had 20-something SBs! That was my defining Edgar moment. lol.

[path12]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Ah, Edgar Martinez. Yeah he screams Mariner too. ARod, not so much (for me personally).

Funny about Edgar... in one of the Baseball Mogul leagues I was in a while back, I picked up Edgar as my 1B even though he was 40 and had a defensive rating D- or something horrible like that. He ended up getting a respectable fielding pct., but his range was horrible. He also had a great offensive season. Hit above .300, OBP above .350, and had 20-something SBs! That was my defining Edgar moment. lol.

He wasn't bad at third base until he got hurt and his range went away. Then they rightly decided his bat was worth far more than the risk of getting reinjured.