Were they wrong v1: Alex Rodriguez vs Toronto

[DeToxRox]

Was A-Rod wrong for yelling as he rounded the bases vs Toronto?

Truthfully, I don't think so because those guys on Toronto should know each others voices and you should know a guy is rounding right by you.

His past history aside, was A-Rod wrong doing what he did?

[MikeVic]

I don't see a problem. I think it's smart actually.

[Karlifornia]

Toronto got punked. They lose.

[sabotai]

Welcome to Hollywood.

[Jas_lov]

We had this dicussion in the baseball thread. The Toronto fans thought it was Bush League but I think it's a good play. The Toronto 3rd baseman has been a career minor leaguer and I can now see why. He was duped easily, took his frustrations out on A-Rod and his teammates backed him. The only reason there's any criticism is because it's A-Rod. Anyone else does this and it's a non story or praised.

[Blade6119]

Anyone want to give a more detailed account of what he did?

[Travis]

It's a bush league play and shows a lack of respect by A-Rod not only for the other players but the game itself. Sure he *shouldn't* have fallen for it, but if you're in his position, given the fact that he's not an established major leaguer and you think your SS has just called you off the ball, you get out of the way. You can bet if this happened to A-Rod and he was the one duped on the play, he'd be right pissed off about the whole thing and not just making comments like, "we were desperate for a win"

My two cents, and yes, there is certainly worse out there, but well, this thread isn't about those things

[DeToxRox]

The baisc jist:

A pop up third with two outs. Runners are going on contact. A-Rod is behind the SS and 3B when he yells "HA" or something along those lines. The 3B backs off the ball which drops in. Matsui scores and the runners all are safe.

[Sweed]

I think it's bush league and don't think he should have done it though I don't really see a reason to make such a big deal out of it. Seems to me the next time A-Rod bats against the Jays that their pitcher can and should take care of the situation.

If you want to pull that shit no problem, just be ready for one in the ribs the next time you bat. 10-1 you don't yell next time you are circling the bases.
Simple baseball justice.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Anyone want to give a more detailed account of what he did?

with 2 outs a runner on second and ARod on first, posada popped up about 2 miles into the air...the third baseman for toronto moved in under near the edge of the grass between third and short....the ball was high enough in the air that by the time it came down, Arod was almost right behind the third baseman....according to Arod he yelled "hot", according to Toronto he yelled "I got it"....end result was the third baseman jumped out of the way because he though the yell was from his shortstop and the ball fell in for a run scoring hit


i thought it was a bush league move by Arod...for a team that is supposed to be as good as the yankees to have to resort to sandlot tactics to get runs across is pretty weak...between this and the Dustin Pedroia thing from last week, i am really starting to lose alot of respect for Arod.

[molson]

Do people calling this "Bush League" have similar opinions about the Hidden Ball Trick or Stealing Signs?

[LloydLungs]

I think Slappy's free to do anything he wants along that line. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and when fielders deke baserunners, which happens allllllll the time.

However, the bush league part, and the reason everyone hates this little twerp, is his post-incident reaction which was along the lines of "Who, me? I just said Ha. What do you mean? I wasn't trying to fool anyone." Just own up to it, say "Of course I did it, and if they don't know each others' voices it's their own damn fault" and be done with it.

Same thing as after he did his purse slap on the Red Sox in 2004 and the umps caught him and called him out. Instead of tipping his hat and going "alright, you got me" he argued and whined like a little bitch. He knew damn well what he did.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

We had this dicussion in the baseball thread. The Toronto fans thought it was Bush League but I think it's a good play. The Toronto 3rd baseman has been a career minor leaguer and I can now see why. He was duped easily, took his frustrations out on A-Rod and his teammates backed him. The only reason there's any criticism is because it's A-Rod. Anyone else does this and it's a non story or praised.

I know we went back and forth on this earlier, but just to clarify, I would consider myself an A-Rod fan. I do hate the Yankees with a passion, but I actually like A-Rod.

[lighthousekeeper]

Given that it was Toronto versus the Yankees, I think it was very Homer Bush league.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by molson

Do people calling this "Bush League" have similar opinions about the Hidden Ball Trick or Stealing Signs?

hidden ball trick - yes - it belongs on the playground

stealing signs - no - because you have the opportunity to defend against it by using different strategies for different situations.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I know we went back and forth on this earlier, but just to clarify, I would consider myself an A-Rod fan. I do hate the Yankees with a passion, but I actually like A-Rod.

i have always liked Arod, but like I said earlier...this is the second time in as many weeks that he has been the subject of a conversation about his being cheap or dirty...he is making it hard to stay a member of his fan club.

[larrymcg421]

How is this worse than the Knoblauch trick against Lonnie Smith in the 1991 WS? Because he made a sound?

[Dekanth]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

Same thing as after he did his purse slap on the Red Sox in 2004 and the umps caught him and called him out. Instead of tipping his hat and going "alright, you got me" he argued and whined like a little bitch. He knew damn well what he did.

I never understood the reaction to this play. If I was Arod, and the Red Sox's pigtailed pitcher was in the basepath, I wouldn't have slapped at the glove, I would have lowered my shoulder into him and sent him flying 20 feet down the line. The way I saw it, Arod didn't really want to cause the collision and did the only other thing he could have other than just accept the tag out.

The Pedroia play was a dirty, but not excessively so. The Red Sox make a living out of beaning the Yankee hitters, so I don't think Pedroia should get too upset over a little payback for many years of beanball.

I don't know if the Toronto play was bush league or not, but I laughed my ass off at the whole incident, so I enjoyed it.

[miami_fan]

I have no problem with it. Then again, I have no problem with most of the unwritten rules in sports that others have a problem with.

[Celeval]

Bush league. Especially because it was what, 9-5 at the time?

[st.cronin]

Totally bush league. The hidden ball trick and other deke plays are ok because there's a baserunning coach that the runner's supposed to pay attention to.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

I think Slappy's free to do anything he wants along that line. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and when fielders deke baserunners, which happens allllllll the time.

However, the bush league part, and the reason everyone hates this little twerp, is his post-incident reaction which was along the lines of "Who, me? I just said Ha. What do you mean? I wasn't trying to fool anyone." Just own up to it, say "Of course I did it, and if they don't know each others' voices it's their own damn fault" and be done with it.

Same thing as after he did his purse slap on the Red Sox in 2004 and the umps caught him and called him out. Instead of tipping his hat and going "alright, you got me" he argued and whined like a little bitch. He knew damn well what he did.

Agreed on all counts. The other day I watched Damion Easley nearly get faked into leaving 2nd base after he stole it on a very high and wide throw from the catcher. The SS jumped up and snagged it, but turned around as he came down as if he was following the ball into the outfield and faked chasing after it (it was actually a very athletic play). Easley took a quick glance, leaned to go off the base, but realized what was going on and thankfully stayed there. A couple games back Beltran deked a guy into staying close enough to 2nd so he couldn't score when he finally realized he wasn't going to catch it. Great play.

It's just always something with A-Rod, like he refuses to give up the fight.

"Hey A-Rod, no one likes you...tell us why."
"Uh, probably because I'm rich and so attractive."

Someone mentioned, either in this thread or the MLB one, that if it was someone else that did this it wouldn't be a story. But can you really picture any other player besides A-Rod committing the following offenses: screaming "HA," slapping the ball out of a glove in a very faggoty way, and trying to forearm another guy in the nuts. Honestly, who would do that besides A-Rod and maybe Carmelo Anthony?

Originally Posted by saldana

hidden ball trick - yes - it belongs on the playground

No fucking way. If a guy isn't focused and paying attention and gets caught, he deserves the public humiliation that comes with getting burned by it.

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Given that it was Toronto versus the Yankees, I think it was very Homer Bush league.

Winner!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Bush league. Especially because it was what, 9-5 at the time?

At what point did baseball make a grand slam illegal? A 4 run lead is insurmountable? I mean, it's not like the Yankees put up a 4 spot in the top of the 9th or anything. Keep grasping at straws.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by Dekanth

I never understood the reaction to this play. If I was Arod, and the Red Sox's pigtailed pitcher was in the basepath, I wouldn't have slapped at the glove, I would have lowered my shoulder into him and sent him flying 20 feet down the line. The way I saw it, Arod didn't really want to cause the collision and did the only other thing he could have other than just accept the tag out.

Well, sometimes you have to just accept the tagout rather than do something that is not legal. But if you do something that is not legal, avoid whining like a baby when they call you out for it.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

How is this worse than the Knoblauch trick against Lonnie Smith in the 1991 WS? Because he made a sound?

How? Simple.

With the deke play, it's up to the player to have awareness of what is going on around him. Lonnie Smith should have been running with his head up. The entire play was in front of him. With ARod's stunt, the guy is only looking up at a pop up and has been trained to back off when he hears a sound from inside the field of play. The two are very different actions.

The other part of this is the danger factor. If everyone starts yelling, the chances of players colliding is much, much higher.

I'm a fan of ARod. I think he gets to much crap from the Yankee fans and would love it if he hit 50+ HR and the Yankees still lost so they could find a way to rationalize it. But as someone else said above, ARod is making it very hard for me to continue to be a fan.

That's a bush league, pathetic play. As was his hitting the ball out of the glove and then crying about it trick in the Boston series. I hate the Yankees with a passion, but a majority of their players are tough to hate. (Pettite, Jeter, Posada, Matsui, Rivera, Bernie Williams, etc.)

It's becoming more and more apparent that ARod isn't half the person those other guys are. He's starting to gather a good collection of plays that I'd make sure my kid understood were BS. That's not a good thing.

[Maple Leafs]

Pretty bush league, especially since it's a Hall of Famer pulling it on some kid trying to stay in the big leagues. But it's still a pretty minor offense. I hope guys don't start doing this all over the league, but I'm sure I'll have forgotten it by next week.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by molson

Do people calling this "Bush League" have similar opinions about the Hidden Ball Trick or Stealing Signs?

Hidden ball trick no, stealing signs yes, depending on who's doing it. Stealing signs is fine if the guy at second base is doing it, wrong if someguy in the scoreboard is doing it. What Arod did is one of those things, while not against the rules per say, is against the honour code of baseball. It's just a jerk move, that you shouldn't do, but some do it.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by nilodor

Hidden ball trick no, stealing signs yes, depending on who's doing it. Stealing signs is fine if the guy at second base is doing it, wrong if someguy in the scoreboard is doing it. What Arod did is one of those things, while not against the rules per say, is against the honour code of baseball. It's just a jerk move, that you shouldn't do, but some do it.

eff the so called baseball honor code. If I were running a team, I'd pull all this crap and sell it as "taking the game into the 21st century."

- I'd force my players to get special cochlear implants that broadcast the opposing catcher's signs into their brain
- I'd pretend to start a LHP but then secretly have a RHP start the game
- I'd sign Verne to pinch hit in bases-loaded situations.
- On road games I'd instruct my pitcher to throw to first base 500 consecutive times, in order to incite a riot, thus forcing my competitors to spend money on increased security.
- I'd spit on the lineup card before exchanging it with the other team
- I'd sign A.J. Pierzinski
- I'd have my pitching coach teach our pitchers to pitch with a 50 ft arc, so that the ball would land on the plate, but still pass through the strike zone.
- I'd install a device under the pitcher's mound that could generate earthquake-like tremors while the opposing pitcher pitched
- I'd equip all my fielders (except 1B) with heavy duty armor and have them all stand in a 3 ft diameter circle around home plate, so when the batter swung at the 50ft arc pitch coming straight down at him, the batted ball would deflect off the fielders. The fielders would also be instructed to wave their arms wildly as the pitch came in, creating a huge distraction for the hitters.
- I'd convince one of my pitchers to get a cannon for an arm - an actual cannon that could shoot baseballs at 150mph.

[Calis]

It's ok I guess, but you can't expect people to not think you're a douche for doing it. So you just live with that. I'm definitely not going to applaud him for it, I think it was lame.

I do however kind of like it for the simple fact that this is what it's coming to for the Yankees this season.

[Fouts]

I think its bush league, but its the Yankees. They need all the help they can get.

[Huckleberry]

Wow. This thread is hilarious.

If this weren't A-Rod it would never have been mentioned. It's not bush league. It's a legal play that helped his team win. The glove slap was illegal.

It wasn't cheating and it wasn't bush league. What a bunch of babies around here. There might be an argument if he'd yelled "mine" or "I got it" or something similar. He just yelled at the guy.

I still can't believe the crying in this thread. Amazing. Stuff worse than this happens every day. Ty Cobb probably would have stabbed the guy. Then there's the argument someone made that he's a superstar that did it to a fringe player. So what? He's supposed to not do this because he makes more money than the other guy? Are you serious? He shouldn't try as hard as normal to get a hit when he faces journeymen relievers. That would be so special. Everyone is a winner!

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

It wasn't cheating and it wasn't bush league. What a bunch of babies around here. There might be an argument if he'd yelled "mine" or "I got it" or something similar. He just yelled at the guy.

I thought he had said mine, at least that was in a couple of reports I saw. I would agree if he just yelled or grunted or something, it may be odd but not really something wrong. Did they update this to say he didn't call for the ball?

[Desnudo]

Its lame, but he's certainly within his rights to yell. That doesn't change the fact that it makes you look like an overcompetitive twit.

[Huckleberry]

Overcompetitive. Ha.

There goes A-Rod, being too competitive and trying to win too much.

Let's recap. A-Rod either isn't trying hard enough and should try harder because he makes so much money or else he's overcompetitive and is trying too hard and should be nicer to lower-paid players instead of doing everything legal to help his team win.

This entire topic is a joke. My personal opinion of the guy is that he's a great player and a gigantic assclown. But this is ridiculous. Find something reasonable to criticize him for if you must.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Its lame, but he's certainly within his rights to yell. That doesn't change the fact that it makes you look like an overcompetitive twit.

Overcompetitive? This isn't Little League.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

I'd equip all my fielders (except 1B) with heavy duty armor and have them all stand in a 3 ft diameter circle around home plate, so when the batter swung at the 50ft arc pitch coming straight down at him, the batted ball would deflect off the fielders. The fielders would also be instructed to wave their arms wildly as the pitch came in, creating a huge distraction for the hitters.

This one is pretty damn funny.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Overcompetitive. Ha.

There goes A-Rod, being too competitive and trying to win too much.

Let's recap. A-Rod either isn't trying hard enough and should try harder because he makes so much money or else he's overcompetitive and is trying too hard and should be nicer to lower-paid players instead of doing everything legal to help his team win.

This entire topic is a joke. My personal opinion of the guy is that he's a great player and a gigantic assclown. But this is ridiculous. Find something reasonable to criticize him for if you must.

This is quite reasonable. It was a bush league play. It was a pathetic play. It has no place in the game. And my guess is if it were to continue, there would be a rule put into place to prevent serious injury to players not knowing who was calling them off.

It isn't illegal. That's why nothing was called. But it was bush league. Which is why the Blue Jays called him out on it and even his own team was incredulous to it.

I'm with Sweed. It's baseball justice on this one. Wait until it's a blowout one way or the other. Let ARod come up and put one in his rib cage. And as he's crying about it and starting a bench clearing brawl, make sure someone tells him that if he ever does it again, it'll go between his eyes.

That'll be the end of him pulling that trick. He doesn't have the balls to continue it after that.

[Ryche]

It's amazing how much bitching there has been over this. These things are childs play compared to all the crap they use to pull off in baseball. And it happens all the time, it just so happens that this time it was Arod and the guy fell for it.It would be no issue if 95% of the other players in the league did. If Toronto doesn't like it knock his ass down the next time they face him and move on.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by nilodor

I thought he had said mine, at least that was in a couple of reports I saw. I would agree if he just yelled or grunted or something, it may be odd but not really something wrong. Did they update this to say he didn't call for the ball?

This video has a close-up from ESPN of him saying it at about the twenty second mark. Looks like 'ha'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cakt6bpA4cE

[miked]

Of course it was "Ha" and it just makes the fielder look even sillier. Wah wah wah, no place in baseball, I'm a purist, it's bush, they wouldn't do this 20 years ago, etc. It's all silly. Just part of the game. If you can't figure out at this stage who has a towering pop up to the 3B, then you have more things to worry about than A-Rod. With pitchers throwing at people's heads, runners sliding 5 ft. wide of the bag to break up double plays, people barrelling in to home plate to score runs, A-Rod yelling Ha hardly ranks up there. We put up with a lot more and just say "it's part of the game."

Sheesh, and I don't like the Yanks one bit.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by miked

Of course it was "Ha" and it just makes the fielder look even sillier. Wah wah wah, no place in baseball, I'm a purist, it's bush, they wouldn't do this 20 years ago, etc. It's all silly. Just part of the game. If you can't figure out at this stage who has a towering pop up to the 3B, then you have more things to worry about than A-Rod. With pitchers throwing at people's heads, runners sliding 5 ft. wide of the bag to break up double plays, people barrelling in to home plate to score runs, A-Rod yelling Ha hardly ranks up there. We put up with a lot more and just say "it's part of the game."

Sheesh, and I don't like the Yanks one bit.

I'll just go with Buster Olney on this one:

I've never heard of fielders complaining about a baserunner yelling at them while they're trying to catch a pop-up; I know you don't see it. And in this case, you could understand Clark might be more vulnerable to this kind of thing -- he was just called up, he hasn't played in the big leagues alongside McDonald and probably doesn't know his voice. On the other hand, you see baserunners trying to distract infielders all the time when they're fielding ground balls, working to obstruct their line of vision or their timing. It does jump out at you when McDonald, a veteran player who is not a star but is respected for his professionalism, reacts the way that he did; if McDonald thinks A-Rod crossed some sort of line, well, some line probably was crossed. Matt Stairs had a strong reaction, too, in George King's piece.
This is not the last we will hear about this, because the Blue Jays are a team that tends to keep score on stuff like this. Somewhere down the road, you can bet that A-Rod is probably going to have a fastball bounced off his rib cage for this transgression.

It's amazing how the people saying this isn't a big deal and if it wasn't ARod this wouldn't be a story are different from players who have played the game for years. I've yet to see any major leaguer asked about the situation who said it's a commonplace thing. In fact, most have said they haven't seen anything like it in their entire careers.

For the safety of the players, they'll change this to a written rule. And ARod will take one in the rib cage for it. And it'll all be over with.

[miked]

Well, the piece you pointed out shows it well. How many times do you see players slow down and try to distract the fielder waiting for a ground ball. Or wait and hop over the ball as it's going by them. It happens more frequently than you'd like to admit, just rarely does it work which is why you don't hear anyone bitching about it. When the piece starts talking about the "veteran players respected for their professionalism" BS and totes out McDonald and Stairs, I think it might be from the Onion. What's next, they're going to tell us how Cesar Crespo and Kelly Stinnett feel?

[Huckleberry]

Troy -

You keep getting funnier.

"It's a safety issue so they should throw a fastball at his ribs and threaten to throw one at his head."

Nice.

It was a legal play in a 2-run game. That Buster Olney piece is real convincing. You mean to tell me that two different Blue Jays were pissed off about it? AMAZING! Stop the presses! And I followed the link to discover that the Blue Jays manager was upset, too. I had no idea!

Rodríguez is a third baseman. Obviously he thought it was alright. I'm sure he'll deal with the same thing at some point and may have already done so. Bunch of crybabies.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I've yet to see any major leaguer asked about the situation who said it's a commonplace thing. In fact, most have said they haven't seen anything like it in their entire careers.

I've heard this thing talked about in the evening local cable news and this morning on local sports talk radio here in Philadelphia. In each case there was one athlete there (Mitch Williams and Steve Jones), and both said it was commonplace and Toronto was upset because they fell for it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Overcompetitive. Ha.

There goes A-Rod, being too competitive and trying to win too much.

Let's recap. A-Rod either isn't trying hard enough and should try harder because he makes so much money or else he's overcompetitive and is trying too hard and should be nicer to lower-paid players instead of doing everything legal to help his team win.

This entire topic is a joke. My personal opinion of the guy is that he's a great player and a gigantic assclown. But this is ridiculous. Find something reasonable to criticize him for if you must.

I guess Joe Torre agrees with me, but what do I know?

And yes, there goes A-Rod being competitive and trying to win too much. He reminds me of guys who back in a ltoo hard in pick-up basketball or break golf clubs over their knees. So I'll critize him as much as Iike and continue to hope that does thing like this in the future.

[Ksyrup]

And I just listened to Jerry Remy talk about how this was commonplace during his career and has been blown out of proportion. It's pretty much 50/50 on the comments from current and former players. Jim Palmer said he had no problem with it, too. I think the thing that got to everyone was (a) it was ARod, and (b) it was the Yankees, since they are supposedly God's gift to baseball and shouldn't need to resort to cheap plays to win games. Well guess what...they suck and needed a win badly.

[Fonzie]

How is it that people are so upset over a practice that: (a) is legal; and (b) might help (and in this case did help) the player's team?

Folks can call it "bush league" all they want, but if I'm the manager I want my players doing everything they can (within the rules) to win games. Maybe there is a risk of player collision with this practice, and if it truly becomes a problem then let the powers that be make a rule. But unless or until there's a rule, I have no problem with this.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

How is it that people are so upset over a practice that: (a) is legal; and (b) might help (and in this case did help) the player's team?

Folks can call it "bush league" all they want, but if I'm the manager I want my players doing everything they can (within the rules) to win games. Maybe there is a risk of player collision with this practice, and if it truly becomes a problem then let the powers that be make a rule. But unless or until there's a rule, I have no problem with this.

Well, A-Rods own manager disagrees. He also said he thought Toronto had a right to be pissed off.

I guess those of us who think the play was bush league truly have no clue. We are just complete morons, like the guy who managed the Yankees to multiple WS titles.

That tells me just about everything I need to know about this. When his own manager doesn't stick up for him, it tells you how ridiculous the play is. Torre believes it won't happen again and something tells me he's right.

Something also tells me we'll find out very quickly if this is really commonplace and if most ballplayers truly don't have a problem with it. The next guy who does it is going to get the same criticism ARod did. Every player in the league knows it. If they believe that it is correct to do and there is nothing wrong with it, that story should come out in the next week to ten days.

My guess is you'll see no story. Again, that'll tell me everything I need to know.

[bbor]

2 teams going nowhere......in a nothing game.

[Fonzie]

First off, I'm not saying folks who are upset "have no clue." I'm simply asking why folks are so upset about something that is legal.

Second, whether it is commonplace or not seems irrelevant. Perhaps the majority of players and managers consider this practice to be "beneath" them and there is an unspoken agreement that they won't do it. Fine, but unspoken, majority-based protocols are not binding, and there should be no outrage when someone "breaks" a non-rule. If such a practice is legal and it can help your team, then why not do it? Another way of thinking about this is: if you have a legal option available to you that might help your team and you do NOT do it, are you really doing what is best for the team?

Maybe I'm the one that's clueless. I just don't get why players doing everything that they can do to legally win is a problem. *shurg*