Trade frustration

[wishbone]

My SP careers in 2k7 have been frustrating, I don't seem to be able to get a lot of talent on my team, especially at QB. So I seem to get 3-4 guys that are real stars and build the rest around them. Most recently I started a career as the 49ers with 6.0e. In 5 years, Alex Smith is a 56/56, solid QB, throws for 3500yds, 30 TDs and 15 INTs per year. Frank Gore has rushed for 1600+yds 2 of the last 3 years and we have been to the NFC championship game (and lost) 2 times in 3 years.

In free agency the top talent is just not there, a lot of role players, generally 50/50 journeyman players. Most of these are very strong in one or 2 skills and play very well when used correctly, but I'm just not seeing any gameplan players.

The Titans have Vince Young (65/65) playing very well and also drafted Brady Quinn who looks like a star (40/70) but won't trade either one. The last 2 seasons I tried to trade for either one and was told that there would be to much dead cap space. This year both Quinn and Young had one-year deals but were both resigned by the Titans, no when I trade to trade for Young, it says that they can't trade away a fan favorite and when I try to trade for Quinn, they say that they can't trade their best QB without getting a comparable player in return. I tried offering Smith, 3 #1s and a #2, same message.

Meanwhile I keep getting offers to trade Frank Gore for a #3 and 3rd string C. Mostly just venting but has anyone else seen similar issues with acquiring talent? It just feels like there are no marquee players to sign, making me taking bigger risks on guys in the draft and tinkering more trying to eke a little more out of my lineup.

[Kodos]

So lots of problems acquiring a top QB, eh? You're not playing as the Dolphins, are you?

[stevew]

I get a lot of "HA" type offers for my guys. 6th round picks for my top TE(maybe like the 3rd or 4th best one in the league), 5ths for a 65/65 OLB. That type of stuff. It's almost laughable right now in this particular career I'm playing. I'll look at the player they're trying to trade for, and try to guess how crappy their offer will be.

And yeah, it's frustrating when they have 2 QB's, and you pull out the stops, only to be told some frustrating message. I'd think almost anyone in the league would be available for 3 #1's, especially if they have another QB with similar skills.

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by Kodos

So lots of problems acquiring a top QB, eh? You're not playing as the Dolphins, are you?

No, I'm trying to a QB that is still on the way up and is injury free. It's totally different...

[Sgran]

Next time you get an offer for a trade, try this experiment: remove the pick they offer, then put the exact same pick back on the table. Half the time the CPU will reject the trade.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Next time you get an offer for a trade, try this experiment: remove the pick they offer, then put the exact same pick back on the table. Half the time the CPU will reject the trade.

Imagine that.

Originally Posted by Help File

If the offered trade is the direct result of an EMail message from the opposing general manager, it will be accepted automatically. As soon as you change the players involved in the trade, however, the trade is considered a new offer, and may be rejected.

Often, the trades offered by an opposing general manager through EMail are better than any trade you could negotiate yourself.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Imagine that.

And I thought you were going to slam me for not being able to prove it happens exactly 50% of the time.

[Passacaglia]

While it's well known that a trade *may* be rejected, it does seem surprising that it happens half the time. You would think that more often than not, the CPU would accept the trade.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Next time you get an offer for a trade, try this experiment: remove the pick they offer, then put the exact same pick back on the table. Half the time the CPU will reject the trade.

You can always then just cancel, go back to the trade offer they sent you originally and they will accept again. It's lucky AI GM's have terrible short term memories!

[wishbone]

I played another season, we went 8-8 going 3-7 in games decided by a touchdown or less. Alex Smith won the MVP and I try to trade him and 3 #1s for Brady Quinn, still reports "Your opponent will not trade it's best QB without getting a comparable QB in return". Quinn has been in the league for 5 seasons after being drafted 1/1 and is 11/17 for 81 yards, 0TDs, 0INTS and just signed a 2 year $2.06m deal. I've played FOF4, FOF2004 and FOF2007 and never seen a team hold onto a guy like this, not play him, not trade him and have him re-sign.

In other news, this game is one a of a few that makes care enough to be aggravated...

[Chubby]

You're not going to build a winner through trades. It's all draft, draft, draft in FOF. Occaisionally a FA will help but you will likely way overpay

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Chubby

You're not going to build a winner through trades. It's all draft, draft, draft in FOF. Occaisionally a FA will help but you will likely way overpay

...and can you (or anyone) explain how this is any different from the NFL?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

...and can you (or anyone) explain how this is any different from the NFL?

It's not, I think it differs from what the thread starter expects.

It also differs from what you usually get in video games. You can usually bend the computer teams over 6 ways from sunday on trades and easily build a monster team that way. In FOF it's all about the draft (and keeping the team together through cap management)

[Bisbo]

In my SP game, I tried to trade a pretty decent RB to several teams who had RB as their #1 need. My RB had a 1 year, $700,000 contract. Every single response I received was the same: the team didn't want to take on his salary. I don't mind a strong bias towards building through the draft, but a better trading model (perhaps allowing you to block the player and see what is offered) would make the SP game more enjoyable.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Often, the trades offered by an opposing general manager through EMail are better than any trade you could negotiate yourself.

Wow. Given the quality of trades I get offered through email... that's depressing...

[Atocep]

I think some people really like to get involved in their teams roster and trades are big way of really making your imprint on a team. I've seen some players that like to make multiple trades in order to build a great team and feel like that really built the team. Not saying thats the OPs intent, just explaining what I've seen from a lot of text sim players.

Players want balanced trading in text sims, which is nearly impossible. What most games will do is shoot for balance, but they usually end up having a lot of holes in the trade AI because they have to make trades possible because players like to make trades. However, the NFL doesn't have many trades at all. As Jim as been working to close AI trading flaws its made trading harder and harder with each version of the game. Even what would normally be considered an even trade or one that greatly favors the computer AI gets rejected a lot of times in 2k7, but you have to realize that its this way to keep other AI trading flaws from creeping in.

When I look at the situation with Brady Quinn posted above, personally the biggest issue I see isn't with the Titans roster management or the trade AI. I see a problem in the way Quinn values himself. As a QB with decent ability and very good upside he should be "thinking" about getting a starting job somewhere, not resigning with the Titans for 2 years and just over $2 mil.

In free agency the top talent is just not there, a lot of role players, generally 50/50 journeyman players. Most of these are very strong in one or 2 skills and play very well when used correctly, but I'm just not seeing any gameplan players.

I'm not trying to make excuses or cover up possible problems with the game, but isn't this more or less the case with the NFL? Its rare that you see a big name free agent actually hit the open market. I think a lot of times we tend to overvalue a player's ability in the NFL because he's the best in a free agent class and signs a big contract. Most often these are guys that succeeded in a system and need a similar system to thrive.

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by Chubby

You're not going to build a winner through trades. It's all draft, draft, draft in FOF. Occaisionally a FA will help but you will likely way overpay

I agree, and I don't try to do a lot of trading, but when I see a team with 2 young, good QBs there should be a way to make a move on that. My frustration is that I am unable to get backup QB Brady Quinn for MVP Alex Smith, 3 #1s (#14 this year) and this year's #2 or the same picks and 1st team RB Frank Gore.

I think that the draft is the best way to maintain a franchise in FOF, but FA and trades can play the biggest role in turning a team around quickly or filling needs. FAs are, in general, known quantities that you can plan around in week 1. Draftees are more expensive (for early picks) and you must wait to see what they can do. With the veteran discount in FOF, alot of times you are left hoping for a guy to outplay his ratings or be a boom player.

Originally Posted by Atocep

When I look at the situation with Brady Quinn posted above, personally the biggest issue I see isn't with the Titans roster management or the trade AI. I see a problem in the way Quinn values himself. As a QB with decent ability and very good upside he should be "thinking" about getting a starting job somewhere, not resigning with the Titans for 2 years and just over $2 mil.

I'd agree with that as well, if this was a human player I could understand why they would want to keep Quinn, but would think that one of my offers would really make him think.

[sandybroon]

I realise this thread is old but my own trade gripe seems to fit best in here.
So I've got an AI team offering me a trade. They are offering fifth overall pick and a 41 rated, 31 year old, linebacker with a salary of close to 1m on a 1 year contract. In return they want my QB.
I'd happily take the pick for my QB but don't want their linebacker, so I remove him from the trade and offer QB for 5th pick. That doesn't bring in enough talent in return....
So I'm asking for less than they offered... and it's not enough?
I can only assume that players are sometimes valued negatively in trades. So I'm doing them a favour by taking this linebacker off their hands?

Of course I could accept the trade as originally offered then just release the guy, but it does raise questions about the trading system for me.

In my experience of trying to trade away my own players, it does seem that the player sometimes has a negative effect on the trade value, even if the AI team is willing to take them. That seems very unrealistic. When would a team ever take a player that they didn't want?

I feel like the feedback from rejected trades could be better, or maybe include counter offers.

[sandybroon]

P.S. I could hardly believe they offered me 5th overall pick. My QB is decent but not amazing. Normally the AI would offer a 6th round pick and a 38 year old poor rated punter with a limp.

[QuikSand]

First - the game's AI for trading is so-so. It's not tremendous, it's not terrible.

For a long time, serious FOFers would (justifiably) complain that the trade AI was too easy to rip off - the developer took that seriously and added in some more "weighting" so when we offer trades to the AI teams, it's pretty tough to get them done. That does lead to some absurd situations, especially when trading within a draft, but it's sort of the price we pay for things being a little better.

As a programming observation (I am not one, but we can all pretend a little) - it's clear that the game-generated trade offer (like the one you received there) is somehow "hard coded" to be accepted if unchanged, even if it doesn't pass the game's overall weighing process. Again, imperfect - you're seeing the warts a bit there.

That said...remember that in football, contracts are not guaranteed. And the team trading a player away eats his bonus completely. So, in the very worst case (unless the player is injured) you receive the LB you don't want and you immediately cut him without consequences.

In the generic, it's dumb that teams object to taking on overpaid veterans this was (unlike in baseball or basketball, where guaranteed salaries make this a totally different thing). But it is what it is. IN your case, sounds like you ought to take the deal, get you early draft pick, cut the LB, and move on -- counting yourself lucky that the dice rolls came up in your favor as the AI generated the trade offer.


Hope that helps.

[Ben E Lou]

If trading is a big interest for you, you should join a MP league.

[sandybroon]

That's what I ended up doing Quiksand - took the deal and cut the player.

I think you're right Ben.