Tim McCarver said what?!?!

[bosshogg23]

So im barely watching the pregame on Fox for the Dodgers vs Mets game. I have a book open and im sorting through old photographs(well im supposed to be doing that). I am hearing the broadcast but not really watching. Kenny Albert initially said the game was between "two historic rivals" or something similar. That caught by ear, seeing as the Mets didn't exist until 1962. I guess he was referring to how the Mets were a NY expansion team after the Dodgers left NY......anyways.....

Tim McCarver said that Jose Reyes is one of the top 10 players of the last 50 years.......my jaw dropped. I know he is prone to say some dumb shit but WOW. Jose Reyes may be great now and all but he is in his 3rd full friggin' year.

So my first reaction was I bet there are 10 Yankees better than Jose Reyes in the last 50 years, let alone all teams combined. So here goes, tell me if im wrong or add your own Yankees, or other teams top 10(I used 4 years as a minimum to play for the Yankees, so no ARod until the year is over).

Whitey Ford
Mickey Mantle
Yogi Berra
Elston Howard
Reggie Jackson
Don Mattingly
Dave Winfield
Rickey Henderson
Derek Jeter
Roger Clemens

[DaddyTorgo]

mrcarver is a boob

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

mrcarver is a boob

""

SI

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

mrcarver is a boob

I love boobs; therefore, I must love Tim McCarver.

[Atocep]

Things Tim McCarver has actually said this season:

I only care about on-base percentage if you can run. If you can't run, I could care less about on-base percentage.

A-Rod just fouls that ball off beautily.

On-base percentage? How about contact percentage?!

In Scrabble, W's are worth 4 points. S's are only worth 1 point. But as far as Papelbon is concerned, S's are worth a lot more than W's.

A Mark Wohlberg fastball. Catch me if you can.

I think if Norman Rockwell were alive the guy that he would paint more than anyone else would be David Eckstein.

[DaddyTorgo]

the point where mccarver really jumped the shark to me was with joe buck in 03/04 with the postseason red sox v. yankees games. mccarver came off as the biggest yankee-homer in the world (which IMO is inexcusable as a national broadcaseter...if he wants to be a yankee homer he should go be a yankee broadcaster and stay off broadcasting other teams)

[st.cronin]

If Tim McCarver could trade places with Phil Rizzuto, I would watch much more baseball.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If Tim McCarver could trade places with Phil Rizzuto, I would watch much more baseball.

but phil rizzuto is....ohhhhhhh...i get it

[Young Drachma]

Baseball commentators are so annoying. But the game is so damn long, you need someone to fill the time in between commercials. But if they're not bored in the booth most days, who is?

[Crapshoot]

Tim McCarver is proof that stupidity can be a blessing for one's career - instead of a curse.

[Chief Rum]

You know, I am thinking this could be the new Max Football thread. After all, we're going to constantly be getting new material.

[DeToxRox]

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

I'm not saying Ramirez is better just yet and I'm not saying Reyes is either. I don't think we'll figure out which one of these guys is better for another 10 years. So many had decided Nomar was so much better than Jeter and I'm pretty sure nobody would say that over their careers.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

I'm not saying Ramirez is better just yet and I'm not saying Reyes is either. I don't think we'll figure out which one of these guys is better for another 10 years. So many had decided Nomar was so much better than Jeter and I'm pretty sure nobody would say that over their careers.

[Desnudo]

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Baseball commentators are so annoying. But the game is so damn long, you need someone to fill the time in between commercials. But if they're not bored in the booth most days, who is?

One great thing about being a Giants fan is that the Giants' broadcasting team (Jon Miller, Duane Kuiper, Mike Krukow) approach covering the game like it's a game, and it's supposed to be fun, rather than something to be overanalyzed. Not that there's no analysis, but you can always count on them to tell a half dozen funny stories per game, and make fun of a few fans. McCarver actually came out to SF and joined the team for a season a few years ago, and the chemistry was awful. Fortunately, he did not stick around.

[jeff061]

Doesn't get better than Jerry Remy. It's painful to watch the national guys.

[MrDNA]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

For my vote, it's Rollins. But... I don't get a vote

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Doesn't get better than Jerry Remy. It's painful to watch the national guys.

remy's losing it though. He spends 90% of the game now talking about his website or shilling all the other crap, the bobblehead dolls, the dating show, red sox nation, all that crap.

IMO it hasn't been the same since it was remy+ sean mcdonough

frankly i'd rather listen on the radio to Castig (even without Trupe)

[Lathum]

For once I agree with McCarver

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Doesn't get better than Jerry Remy. It's painful to watch the national guys.

Yes, yes it does. 3 years of listening to Remy made me yearn for anyone else. Kruk and Kuip are by the best of the 3 sets of broadcasters I've heard (Giants, Padres, Red Sox).

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

Hanley is having a great year but

1. He plays for a team no one cares about with zero expectations
2. I watch a ton of Mets games and baseball in general. no one changes the complexion of a game when he gets on the bases more then Reyes. The effect he has is so unique.

[Lathum]

lol,

I am watching the replay of the game and as we I was typing the last post he stole second

[Lathum]

and third. and Wright singles him home proving my point

[stevew]

Originally Posted by bosshogg23

Whitey Ford
Mickey Mantle
Yogi Berra
Elston Howard
Reggie Jackson
Don Mattingly
Dave Winfield
Rickey Henderson
Derek Jeter
Roger Clemens

Mariano Rivera
Catfish Hunter

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Hanley is having a great year but

1. He plays for a team no one cares about with zero expectations
2. I watch a ton of Mets games and baseball in general. no one changes the complexion of a game when he gets on the bases more then Reyes. The effect he has is so unique.

That's no excuse, and a ridiculous attitude. Ramirez is today at least as good as Reyes, and quite possibly better. The "complexion of the game" and "knows how to win with pressure" arguments have no bearing on value.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

That's no excuse, and a ridiculous attitude. Ramirez is today at least as good as Reyes, and quite possibly better. The "complexion of the game" and "knows how to win with pressure" arguments have no bearing on value.

How can you seriously say that?

You don't think the ability to disrupt a game when on the basepaths contibutes to a players value?


Watch a Mets game sometime, when Reyes is on base the game changes drasticly. But if you want to sell his 70 stolen bases short thats your buisness.

[Lathum]

dola- and don't undersell the expectation to win effecting a players performance.

How many guys have gone to the Yankees and turned to shit because they can't handle the pressure.

[sterlingice]

Maybe McCarver has him on his fantasy team

SI

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes will be compared until Florida decides they can't afford Ramirez and he ends up playing for Boston or some other big market club. They were neck and neck last year in production and this year even though Ramirez has the edge offensively, its still just as close.

However, Ramirez is not a good shortstop defensively. He's actually not even an average SS at this stage of his career while Reyes is quite possibly the best in NL.

Both players are among the best in the NL. Both players are still young and improving. When you factor in defense I'd give Reyes and edge, but not a big one.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How can you seriously say that?

You don't think the ability to disrupt a game when on the basepaths contibutes to a players value?


Watch a Mets game sometime, when Reyes is on base the game changes drasticly. But if you want to sell his 70 stolen bases short thats your buisness.

Yes, and Hanley Ramirez is hitting .332/.390/.561 , while Reyes is hitting .301/.374/.445. Reyes 69 SB's are great and all (and Ramirez has 41 this year at roughly the same rate), but it takes an impressive Mets-tinted view to assume Reyes is anywhere close to the offensive player Ramirez is. Reyes is better defensively, but Ramirez has the 3rd highest VORP in baseball - he's roughly 20 runs better offensively than Reyes.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola- and don't undersell the expectation to win effecting a players performance.

How many guys have gone to the Yankees and turned to shit because they can't handle the pressure.

Oh god - how appropriate that you're tossing out these cliches in a McCarver thread. Ironic, but appropriate.

[EagleFan]

Bah!!! My favorite announcer line was Joe Morgan ponsering why the Braves first baseman was playing behind Pat Burrell at first and not holding him on with the follow up quote of "Pat Burrell can run".

Ironically two batters later Burrell was thrown out trying to score from second on a two out single, and thrown out by a whole city block.

Yeah Joe, Pat can run...just not at a pace much quicker than a brisk walk.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes will be compared until Florida decides they can't afford Ramirez and he ends up playing for Boston or some other big market club. They were neck and neck last year in production and this year even though Ramirez has the edge offensively, its still just as close.

However, Ramirez is not a good shortstop defensively. He's actually not even an average SS at this stage of his career while Reyes is quite possibly the best in NL.

Both players are among the best in the NL. Both players are still young and improving. When you factor in defense I'd give Reyes and edge, but not a big one.

man I miss hanley. I hope the sox can get him back. Don't get me wrong though...beckett/lowell was a great return for him.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by rowech

I'm not saying Ramirez is better just yet and I'm not saying Reyes is either. I don't think we'll figure out which one of these guys is better for another 10 years. So many had decided Nomar was so much better than Jeter and I'm pretty sure nobody would say that over their careers.

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I'm not saying Ramirez is better just yet and I'm not saying Reyes is either. I don't think we'll figure out which one of these guys is better for another 10 years. So many had decided Nomar was so much better than Jeter and I'm pretty sure nobody would say that over their careers.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Best part is Reyes isn't even the best SS in the NL East.

I'm not saying Ramirez is better just yet and I'm not saying Reyes is either. I don't think we'll figure out which one of these guys is better for another 10 years. So many had decided Nomar was so much better than Jeter and I'm pretty sure nobody would say that over their careers.

[k0ruptr]

Thats a retarded statement by McCarver

[larrymcg421]

What the hell? I don't think I dropped acid before coming in to work this morning?

[rowech]

I originally had double posted and everyone has made me very aware of that.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Yes, and Hanley Ramirez is hitting .332/.390/.561 , while Reyes is hitting .301/.374/.445. Reyes 69 SB's are great and all (and Ramirez has 41 this year at roughly the same rate), but it takes an impressive Mets-tinted view to assume Reyes is anywhere close to the offensive player Ramirez is. Reyes is better defensively, but Ramirez has the 3rd highest VORP in baseball - he's roughly 20 runs better offensively than Reyes.

clearly your not getting my point.

When Ramirez is on base it's just another guy with speed on base, when Reyes is on base the entire game and the way the pitcher goes about it changes.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

clearly your not getting my point.

When Ramirez is on base it's just another guy with speed on base, when Reyes is pon base the entire game and the wat the pitcher goes about it changes.

Can't the pitcher just pretend it's Ramirez on base and go about his normal routine?

[rowech]

This is a pointless argument guys. Both guys are GREAT players but hold this argument for another ten years.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Jose Reyes is so good that he ran from his shortstop position in New York and caught Barry Bonds' 756th home run ball in the outfield seats in San Francisco. Beat that.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Jose Reyes is so good that he ran from his shortstop position in New York and caught Barry Bonds' 756th home run ball in the outfield seats in San Francisco. Beat that.

But he didn't do this in the 9th inning or in a Game 7, therefore he is not "clutch", nor could he ever be a "true Yankee (or Met)".

[Logan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But he didn't do this in the 9th inning or in a Game 7, therefore he is not "clutch", nor could he ever be a "true Yankee (or Met)".

Please don't lump us Met fans in with the moron Yankee fans who love that extremely homosexual "true Yankee" phrase. No one ever says that.

[Logan]

I'm going to agree with Lathum on how Reyes changes the game when he's on the bases. It's just something you have to see on an everyday basis to understand. I know that sounds as bullshit as the "this guy is sooo clutch" arguments, but whatever...

Some thoughts on Reyes from Buster Olney in a recent column:

Jose Reyes should be part of any conversation about the NL MVP. Consider some of these numbers: He became the first NL player since Tony Womack in 1999 to steal 70 bases, and the impact of his baserunning is real. In the games in which he's stolen a base, the Mets have a .625 winning percentage, according to Mark Simon of ESPN research, and when he doesn't steal a base, their winning percentage is .528.

Here's more: When he's been on base during David Wright's at-bats this year, the third baseman is hitting .400, according to the Elias Sports Bureau; when Reyes is not on base, Wright is hitting almost 100 points lower, at .307. Carlos Beltran is hitting .329 with Reyes on base, .260 when he's not. Wright and Beltran are more apt to see fastballs with Reyes on base, of course, because opposing catchers and pitchers must combat Reyes' base-stealing threat.

And, oh by the way, Reyes has the second-highest fielding percentage of any shortstop in baseball. That's a good year.

[Lathum]

great write Logan, thanks.

[DaddyTorgo]

In the games in which he's stolen a base, the Mets have a .625 winning percentage, according to Mark Simon of ESPN research, and when he doesn't steal a base, their winning percentage is .528.

--- I havn't taken statistics since HS but even I can tell you that stat isn't necessarily indicitive of his baserunning and what it does. It's an example of cherry-picking a stat without demonstratable significance that supports one's argument. there are SO MANY other factors that feed into whether they win or lose any given game.

the argument about other batters hitting better...that IMO has some statistical significance.

[Logan]

Agreed...it would be cool to see some analysis on when the steals came, if they resulted in runs, would it have changed the game if he didn't take the base (i.e. someone hitting a double after he stole third), etc. Not that this would necessarily tell the whole story either.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

In the games in which he's stolen a base, the Mets have a .625 winning percentage, according to Mark Simon of ESPN research, and when he doesn't steal a base, their winning percentage is .528.

--- I havn't taken statistics since HS but even I can tell you that stat isn't necessarily indicitive of his baserunning and what it does. It's an example of cherry-picking a stat without demonstratable significance that supports one's argument. there are SO MANY other factors that feed into whether they win or lose any given game.

the argument about other batters hitting better...that IMO has some statistical significance.

what you need to understand about Reyes isn't how many steals he has but the fact that the potential is always there for him to steal that it changes the whole complexion af an at-bat when Reyes is on base.