05-26-2003, 02:37 AM | #1 | ||
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The Indy 500 was today?
Holy crap, I had no clue that it was today. I remember when the Indy 500 used to be a HUGE deal. I don't know that I heard a single thing about it coming up this weekend.
What happened? Is this due to NASCAR's popularity? Or because of the IRL/CART split? Or is it something else? Geez, it used to be that my family used to have people over to watch the race and make a whole day event out of it, kind of like Super Bowl Sunday. And now no one talks about it... Talk about the winds of change...
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05-26-2003, 03:32 AM | #2 |
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Yeah, I totally forgot. I always seem to think it is held on Memorial Day itself.
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05-26-2003, 04:09 AM | #3 |
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I enjoyed the part I watched (the last 30ish laps). It's my one race of the year to watch since I'm not a NASCAR person, tho I got up a bit late this year. There were two cautions on the last ten laps which led to lots of excitement.
SI
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05-26-2003, 06:44 AM | #4 | |
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Re: The Indy 500 was today?
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It is totally down to the IRL/CART split (which has been one of the big reasons behind NASCAR's massive gain in popularity over the last 10 years) The Indy 500 used to be a great race, and it always makes me sad to see it now, with half the field made up of drivers who should not be out there, driving those hideously ugly, slow IRL cars. Screwed up finishes like last year do not help the credibility of the race either. Sad to say, but I kind of hope the Indy 500 dies completely in the next few years. |
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05-26-2003, 09:14 AM | #5 | |
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Re: Re: The Indy 500 was today?
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This is the single greatest statement anybody has ever made on this board. Screw the EARL...... and screw Tony George..... TLK |
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05-26-2003, 10:31 AM | #6 |
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It's probably because Average Joe racing fan is someone who wants to relate to the races. NASCAR is the All-American racing faction, and people like that. The cars aren't Honda, they are Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. Hell, the cars look like the ones we drive to work. The racers are all good ole boys who are willing to talk to the media. The rivalries are more intense. I'm not a racing fan, but its not hard to see that's why NASCAR is king, and the IRL and CARTs of the world need to be fixed or will die.
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05-26-2003, 11:03 AM | #7 |
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However, nascar has no international following, while I know CART is popular out here (though not as much as F1).
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05-26-2003, 11:36 AM | #8 |
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I don't think NASCAR wants or cares about an international following, and I don't think the manufacturers care, since the Big 3 automakers don't market the same cars overseas that they sell here. Go to Europe, and you'll see cars made by Ford and GM, but they're not the same models as here, and in the case of GM, they have their own makes (like Vauxhall in the UK and Opel in Germany). Chevrolet is name that doesn't mean a whole lot there.
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05-26-2003, 11:40 AM | #9 |
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It is true that NASCAR doesn't care about international following. My point is that at least cart does have a big international following and is in no danger of dying.
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05-26-2003, 11:50 AM | #10 |
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I thought CART was the best racing series in the world until Tony George decided to try to kill it. There's one and only one person who is responsible for the decline of American open wheel racing, and unfortunately, he owns the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
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05-26-2003, 12:30 PM | #11 |
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Personally, I love Indy racing, and think it's a shame what George did to the sport here in the US.
Remember when it was fun to watch qualifying, let alone the race? Now they only have as many entrants as there are qualifying spots. No intrigue. The sad thing is, CART was just hitting it's peak when George killed it. Remember that season when Unser and Fittipaldi ran with the Mercedes-Benz engines and just demolished the field? http://www.bjwor.com/980514.html |
05-26-2003, 04:19 PM | #12 |
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Not so sure about some statements about the lack of international following for NASCAR...
We get a lot of CART / IRL / NASCAR on SKY TV (subscription sat. dish service) here. I love NASCAR because of the insanity involved. A huge number of cars in two or more columns screaming around Talledega (sp?) at high speeds with the slightest wrong move causing pandemonium. Brilliant entertainment. Can't say that I am very into CART / IRL, but I support Scott Dixon like crazy in the IRL (currently 8th in the standings). The Indy 500 was on live when we were at the gym yesterday morning. kiwiDE57
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05-26-2003, 06:54 PM | #13 |
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Actually, if you follow racing, almost all of the top openwheel drivers that are not in F1 are in the IRL now. The Unser, Andretti, and Foyt names are still racing there.
In yesterday's 500, you saw Helio Castroneves, Michael Andretti, Al Unser Jr, Kenny Brack, Gil de Ferran, Tony Kanaan, A.J. Foyt IV, Thomas Scheckter, Sam Hornish, Scott Sharp, and top rookies Scott Dixon and Dan Wheldon. You also had Robby Gordon and Jimmy Vasser from other circuits trying to win the greatest race of the year. There is also a Japanese contingent that gives the race an important international flare (Roger Yasukawa, Shinji Nakano, and Tora Takagi). While it's still not back to the popularity that it had before the split, the IRL has already gone around the CART in terms of drivers and appeal to racing fans. The CART will die before the IRL does if they don't get back together (which could happen in the future). As for the speed of the cars, 230 mph is not that slow, in my opinion. |
05-26-2003, 07:39 PM | #14 | |
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Sadly the only thing going now for some of these drivers is their name. Andretti has now retired, Unser is past it, and the less said about the latest Foyt generation the better (The NASCAR racing Foyt is not doing much better) I concede that there are a several big name drivers in IRL right now, but I also know that some of them can't wait to leave. The European and Brazilian drivers were brought up on a diet of road courses, and many of the drivers are not excited about spending the rest of their career turning left. Even Nascar drivers get to turn right twice a season! |
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05-26-2003, 08:06 PM | #15 |
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I really dont know what the big deal is with road courses ....sure they are a change of pace but I want to see passing and bumping not single file racing .
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05-26-2003, 08:55 PM | #16 |
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NASCAR is larger than IRL because NASCAR is more competitive, has more stars, and more competitive tracks. Even the Coca Cola 600 is more popular than the Indy 500 now.
Back to my point. NASCAR has the stars, it has Dale Earnhardt Jr., Kevin Harvick, Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon; these guys are very popular in American society and the racing world. People know more about these four people than they do about Michael Andretti or Helio Castroneves. Indy is losing popularity and not all the stands were filled at the Indy 500 and because of lack of new talent, however there are some like A.J Foyt IV and Sam Hornish Jr., however you only hear about em once a year. Here are some points as to Indy's destruction. - NASCAR's Daytona 500 has surpassed it in popularity - The split between IRL and CART - The lack of stars (obviously) - They're going too damn fast. Who can see something at 220 mph? - No Marketing - Lack of American Manufacturers, sure Chevy is one, but wheres everyone else ? |
05-26-2003, 09:17 PM | #17 |
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It is the CART/IRL split and the incompetents running both series (with the CART management being the more incompetent of the two) that has caused the decline in popularity. Nothing else. It would still be as big as it was if not for the split. Indy car racing has changed engine and chassis manufacturers so often over its recent history than fan loyalty toward manufacturers was never factor like it has been in NASCAR.
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05-26-2003, 11:40 PM | #18 |
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Its sad that I only saw Indy 500 coverage once . I guess ABC didnt care for it that much .
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06-07-2003, 06:47 PM | #19 |
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06-07-2003, 07:54 PM | #20 |
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I love CART's series, because I like road coarse racing, but they have the most "diverse" schedule with ovals, street circuits and road coarses. Road racing on regular road coarses offer plenty of passing options, with tracks such as Portland, Elkhart Lake, and I am sure their are other "good" circuts. Street Racing offers perheps the most difficult driving of any, where skill is really needed. F1's only street circut, and crown jewel, Monanco, is a very, very hard track. While Passing may be limited, I don't doubt the best driver is the best driver when that races concludes. IRL is actually "coming to life".
Could you see a new open-wheel series form, with 1/3 ovals, 1/3 road coarses and 1/3 street circuits. I think the key is to make sure you pick the right tracks and market them right, (with festivals going on in the city), and also develop a "training ground" for American drivers, such at F1's Formula 3000 series. Nascar is going to lose that "All-American" appeal as it appears Toyoto is looking to enter the field. They are entering trucks next year. |
06-07-2003, 09:51 PM | #21 |
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NASCAR wont lose that all-american appeal. I sure hope Toyota doesnt enter, but it looks like they will, they'll end up blowing away the competition like they do in Indy Racing League and it'll be unfair for the guys at Chevy, Ford, Pontiac and Dodge. However, through it all, I think NASCAR will still be the dominant racing league in America. Like CHEMICAL said, no one wants to see road course races like in CART or F1 because you can only see the cars on one portion of the track. That's how American Racing goes and that's how it will be fought, it'll be fought on oval tracks like Talladega or Chicagoland.
Last edited by Happy29 : 06-07-2003 at 09:53 PM. |
06-08-2003, 12:13 AM | #22 | |
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Tell that to the hundreds of thousands that pack all of CART's road and street courses. Also explain to me why the EARL can't attract flies to any of there events outside on Indy and Texas. Kansas and Chicago "sell out", but that's only because they're packaged with NASCAR events in a season ticket program. Sorry to rant, just a disgruntled CART fan...... TLK |
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06-08-2003, 12:21 AM | #23 | |
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As much as I'd hate to see a merger of the IRL and CART, the only way Open-wheel racing is going to return to it's glory, would be something like you proposed. Even half oval and half road/street courses would be fine with me. Tony George needs to realize that his vision of what he wanted the IRL to be, never happened and will never happen. Chris Pook and company, need to realize they need George, Penske, Ganassi and company to survive. With both groups putting between 19-22 cars on the track, think about a series with 30 cars, 24 to 26 tracks. It all makes to much sense to me, but that is why it'll never happen.... TLK |
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06-08-2003, 01:19 AM | #24 |
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TheLionKing, I respect your views but I don't agree with them. I see fans go to NASCAR's Talladega Superspeedway in Alabama (The EA Sports 500 in the fall) and it's a single event with no Busch or Truck race prior to it, and it sells out. Lots of events in NASCAR sell out with Busch races like Pocono, why ? Fans can see the whole track and they see their favorite stars. I cant really answer for the fact that IRL attracts fans to Texas and Indy, and NASCAR attracts fans to the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400, maybe they're distinguished events and CART simply lacks those distinguished events. I have to admit, I am not a road racing fan even though NASCAR has races at Sonoma and Watkins Glen, I think whether you're more of an oval racing fan or road course fan, your views on this issue can differ.
Last edited by Happy29 : 06-08-2003 at 01:22 AM. |
06-13-2003, 01:47 PM | #25 |
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I been wondering about the developmental series of the IRL and the other open-wheel series, and part of the lack of American Drivers is the lack of a quality developmental series. I though CART, reading the series lacks a quality "training" program, had the Dayton Indy Lights and Toyota Atlantic Series. What makes F3000, F1's program, so well, and what does it take for a good developmental series?
Also, if a new series was to launch, do you think a CART-like series such with a first-year schedule of perheps 5 ovals, 4 road corses and 3 street circuts. The focus of the series to go to US and get up to 3 Mexican races and 4 Canadian circuits. CART was successful, just management ran it into the ground. |
06-13-2003, 02:11 PM | #26 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by TLK : 06-13-2003 at 03:32 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 03:17 PM | #27 |
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I hate Tony George! Too bad some CART racers and teams took the bait and jumped ... initially just for Indy, but then for the whole kit'n'kaboodle. CART is trying (the night race at The Mile was cool), but I just don't see IRL and CART mending any fences to save their sport.
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06-13-2003, 03:31 PM | #28 | |
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For all the Tony Gerorge haters.......... http://www.crapwagon.com The night race at Cleveland will be great too...... TLK |
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06-13-2003, 03:38 PM | #29 |
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King,
Prolly knowledgable bout open-wheel racing biz. What is a "test drive" that the F3000 winner gets? Aren't usually F3000 winners part of the teams in F1. I actually meant with a new start-up series. I believe that if the series could get a good manufactuor, like Audi, to help it for the first year, and launch with 12 races for its first year, with the formula above, it could be pretty good. By making it an North American series, but still holding the bulk of the series in the states, you have the ability to tap into the Mexican and Canadian corporate market, fan base, television markets as well as talent. I actually drawn it up more in detailed, if you like to hear it out. I believe open-wheel racing can thrive, it's just been hunged down by poor management. I believe F1 could be much bigger here with an American or two on the circuit who can compete. I think Michael Andretti helped carry it here when he raced in the series. Is the Indy Lights series dead? What makes a development series so key, and is could be it a great tool? What makes a great development series? |
06-13-2003, 03:51 PM | #30 | |
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Not always.... F3000 is just as messed up at CART in the prest situation. If you wanted a serious merger.... F3000 and CART would be a good one..... But to answer your question... F3000 Champs: 1998: Juan Montoya (went onto CART with Chip Ganassi for two years before F1) 1999: Nick Heidfeld (went straight to F1 with Prost) 2000: Bruno Junqueira (went onto CART with Chip Ganassi, still in CART with Newman/Hass) 2001: Justin Wilson (in F1 with Minardi, but it took him a few years to get there, raced in Telefonica last year) 2002: Sebastian Bourdais (went onto to CART with Newman/Hass) 2003: Björn Wirdheim (leader as of now, talking to a few CART teams) Last edited by TLK : 06-13-2003 at 03:51 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 04:05 PM | #31 | |
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I think so much damage has been down to open-wheel racing, it would be hard to start an operation from scratch. First, the ISC has a stranglehold on pretty much any oval you'd wanna run in the US (sans Milwaukee). This will be CART's last year at Fontana because of this. The IRL is lucky there in bed with the ISC. You're right on with including Mexico and Canada. Those races are saving CART right now. It mind-blowing to think the race in Mexico City will have more spectators than the Indy 500. I'd love to hear any thoughts on the revitalization of open-wheel racing in America. F1 couldn't care less if there is an American in their series. Nonetheless, I think in a few years there will be an American or two. Bryan Herta had a test-ride with Minardi but nothing came of it. Right now in F3000 there are three Americans. One of them, Phil Geibler is special, although he hasn't excelled in his two F3000 races. Red Bull is also pushing to get an American in F1. They run an "American Idol" of racing for Americans. Red Bull Driver Search Indy Lights was basically merged into Toyota Atlantics at the beginning of last season. Some of the Lights teams went to the Infinity League and some moved on to Atlantics. As stated earlier, the jump from Atlantics is too great to be competitve in CART. The main problem being the car in Atlantics is too easy to drive. Also, a knock on Atlantics is that it is too expensive for a feeder series. I will say they've had some competitive races this year, however. TLK Last edited by TLK : 06-13-2003 at 04:07 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 04:41 PM | #32 |
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Yes, but F1 wouldn't mind tapping the huge American market. They started with the race at Indy, but I think they will move the race to another track after the contract expires.
I never really saw F3000, or barely know much about it, expect it is kinda the Busch series to Nascar as it is to F1. Am I right? Care to give an overview and its problems of this series? Care to explain the series such as Formula 3, Formula Renault. Does Canada and Mexico have a solid"training" program series, that could graduate its top drivers in the developmental series of a series that I would like to see. F1 is even having some problems, and some of the car manufactures are threatening to leave and form its own series. If you like, I propose a series of my own. |
06-13-2003, 04:48 PM | #33 | |
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Shoot- I'd talk about open-wheel racing all day if I could.... TLK |
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06-13-2003, 05:02 PM | #34 | ||
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The Indy Road course is a joke, but there aren't any other road courses that are up to FIA standards and to get say, Road America or Long Beach would take a big investment. If F1 did somehow get in bed with CART as earlier rumored though, I guarantee you, The US Grand Prix would get pulled from Indy. Personally, I'd love to see a F1 Vegas street race. If that doesn't spell money, I don't know what does. Quote:
Essentially you're right, it's the Busch of F1. They run 11 of the event that F1 compete at. The problem being with only a few rides averrable every year, drivers have had to look for other options after placing well in F3000. That lately has been CART, making CART an attractive series to F1 teams. Basically series such as Nissan World Series,Formula Nippon, Euro 3000, and Formula Renault all feed into F3000. If you can ever catch any Nissan World Series, take a second to see some good racing. It's a good mix of drivers and teams. TLK |
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06-13-2003, 05:46 PM | #35 |
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A Vegas street race would be like Monanco. Could they run it at night, along the strip? Could a good circuit be made in the streets? I think a new series could go their and make it ala...daytona 500, Indy 500, Monaco, for its series. My series would call for two Vegas races, a race at Vegas Motor Speedway on the oval, and a Vegas street circuit.
Seems the F1 and CART course are very differenet. F1 course seem to have more long straights and more challenging turns. |
06-13-2003, 09:07 PM | #36 | |
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Finance is also a factor, sometimes more important than skill. Ralph Firman got the Jordan drive this season ahead of seemingly better qualified drivers because, as reigning Nippon champion, he was able to bring money to the cash-strapped team rather than them paying someone else. I don't know much about NASCAR, but the "Tradin' Paint" stunt that happened this week seemed to show that Jeff Gordon might have what it takes to succeed in F1. He'd need to avoid the Michael Andretti "only turn up for the races" approach though!
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06-13-2003, 09:26 PM | #37 | |
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Yeah, I meant in theory, but like you said it doesn't always happen that way. As seen in CART this year, finances are becoming huge. At least four rides are being bought, and those are usually the four guys at the bottom of the scoresheet. As neat as it would be to see Jeff Gordon in F1 (it'd be funny, just like Andretti) he will never leave NASCAR. I think the best shot is either A.J. Allmendinger or Phil Giebler. Either way if one makes it there, I hope it's not for the sake of having an American there. AEJ- Just wondering what the view on American open-wheel racing is, in your part of the world. TLK |
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06-13-2003, 09:34 PM | #38 |
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Anyone know of a website which compares the specs and techs of each series to another?
Their is a debate over CART going to V8/v10 (can't remeber). I not a tech person, can anyone explain the reaction over such a move. |
06-13-2003, 09:58 PM | #39 |
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As with most things, some people love it and some hate it.
We had unedited CART races for a couple of seasons on one of our terrestrial channels and I used to enjoy the street races and hated the Handford wing ovals. Now they show NASCAR Busch and IRL and it's real yawn-a-minute stuff! They still show CART and Winston Cup on cable and there are people that love those and have no interest in F1 or 'Euro-domestic' series. CART are having as much trouble getting settled in Europe as F1 is in the USA with Germany's Lausitzring oval being in financial trouble and our Rockingham oval race being replaced by one on the Brands Hatch road circuit. I speak as someone who has had varying levels of interest in USAC/CART since Lotus were trying to break in, in the mid-60s, while Mario Andretti was trying to break out. Trivia notes: The Brands Hatch race was run on the short Indy Circuit and I was at the USAC race which caused the name change in the 70s. In the 60s Europe was way behind the US in sponsorship terms and I thought the Dean Van Lines Special was a car built by someone with Dutch ancestry.
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06-13-2003, 10:07 PM | #40 |
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06-13-2003, 10:56 PM | #41 |
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Lion, I'll post my "proposal" unless you want to post yours, and I'll respond.
Or co-do one. Why is it tough for CART guys to make the jump to F1, but its pretty easy for F1 guys to jump to CART. Also, whatever happen to nigel Mansell. |
06-13-2003, 11:09 PM | #42 |
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Post yours and i'll come up with one also.... then we can merge them and see if can come up with something better than the current state.....
TLK |
06-13-2003, 11:21 PM | #43 |
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And I dont get why lots of CART and IRL drivers are jumpin to NASCAR either? Cant they stay there? We already have Tony Stewart and Christian Fitttipaldi !
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06-13-2003, 11:23 PM | #44 | |
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Mansell went back to F1 after his second year in CART. He ran part-time for McLaren-Mercedes in 1995. Actually, I think he only ran two races and was in a test role then. Recently, he was seen at a few CART events. It'd be nice to see him in an ownership role in CART, but I think it's just wishful thinking. TLK |
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06-16-2003, 11:11 AM | #45 |
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If anybody has any extra money laying around, CART just got put up for sale...... Rumor is the Bernie Eccelstone will buy 51% as early as today.....
TLK |
06-16-2003, 11:13 AM | #46 |
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Well, we did try getting an FOFC pool of money together to buy Brett Favre's house and an aircraft carrier, so why not CART? I've got $100 if I can drive the pace car at the races.
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09-10-2003, 09:14 PM | #47 | |
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It's a great day in the TLK household...... CART is saved...
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Amazing to me that a stock that was traded at $17, ended up getting sold for .56. Oh well, time to start over...... |
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09-10-2003, 09:35 PM | #48 |
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Sweet! Down with EARL!!!
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09-10-2003, 10:16 PM | #49 | |
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Craptacular gets it |
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09-11-2003, 01:32 AM | #50 |
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