Well, my baseball life sucks now.

[Toddzilla]

Dola - found the quote...

I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time they’re clogging up the bases for somebody who can run.

[dervack]

Let's not forget putting two CF's in the starting lineup.

[dime]

apparently reds ownership/management is stunned at the negative reaction to the baker hire...they thought it would be scene as a smart move and a bold commitment to winning.

funny and sad.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by rowech

I'm sorry guys....as a Reds fan, there were other names out there that I might want a little more but this is EXACTLY what the Reds need. It's been a revolving door of crap managers who have no experience managing. They keep hiring the interim guys and history (not only with the Reds) shows interim guys will almost always turn a team around to finish out a season. Then they give them a big contract and they've tanked.

They needed someone who is older, has real experience, and won't let some of these guys get by with what they've been doing. They don't have a pitching staff for him to mismanage unless he can't figure out to keep Harang in there as long as possible. They needed someone who was coming 100% from outside the orginization.

Oester would have been just another like the ones before. MacKannin would have been just like ones before. Torre and LaRussa simply weren't coming.

The only other possible hires would have been Brenly (who I would have wanted more than anyone) and Girardi who I think would have kept putting them on hold to see if he could get the Yankees job.

You're nuts. Baker shreds young arms, treats young players as if they're lepers, and has the tactical nous of a crack whore. He's a good fit for an underachieving veteran bunch, not a young team that needs not to let "know how to win" crowd. Watch Joey Votto sit on the bench for Hattenberg next year, or Jay Bruce play 4th OF all year. Horrible, horrible decision.

[RendeR]

Baker sucks ass.


Nuf said

[Toddzilla]

Oh shi....

I forgot about the rookies. I've got Bruce and Bailey on my fantasy team's minor league roster. Time to dump them for 10-cents on the dollar

[korme]

I am thoroughly unhappy.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You're nuts. Baker shreds young arms, treats young players as if they're lepers, and has the tactical nous of a crack whore. He's a good fit for an underachieving veteran bunch, not a young team that needs not to let "know how to win" crowd. Watch Joey Votto sit on the bench for Hattenberg next year, or Jay Bruce play 4th OF all year. Horrible, horrible decision.

Sorry....do you think their two 10 million dollar OFers are going to sit? DO you think they'll sit Hamilton for Bruce? In addition, you may disagree but Hatterberg is the best pure hitter on that team and is probably the best guy to teach these young ones how to play. Hatteberg should start at 1b and Votto should be eased into it playing 1b/LF until about the trading deadline.

In addition, Prior and Wood were done before he ever did anything to them. Management kept holding out hope they would turn the corner when those guys got healthy and they just kept sitting around waiting for it to happen and of course it hasn't. Finally, they decided they had to do something.

Perhaps he's learned from mistakes...I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sorry....do you think their two 10 million dollar OFers are going to sit? DO you think they'll sit Hamilton for Bruce? In addition, you may disagree but Hatterberg is the best pure hitter on that team and is probably the best guy to teach these young ones how to play. Hatteberg should start at 1b and Votto should be eased into it playing 1b/LF until about the trading deadline.

In addition, Prior and Wood were done before he ever did anything to them. Management kept holding out hope they would turn the corner when those guys got healthy and they just kept sitting around waiting for it to happen and of course it hasn't. Finally, they decided they had to do something.

Perhaps he's learned from mistakes...I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Oh dear god, lets stop with this "pure hitter" bullcrap. Scott Hattenberg ranked 15th in the NL amongst 1b in Runs Created - among regulars, only Ryan Klesko and Mike Jacobs were worse. Him playing next year does nothing for the Reds. As for the abuse he inflicted on Prior and Wood - just look at their pitch counts with Baker - Prior was a considered a model par excellence before Baker. Dusty also has absolutely no tactical brain power whatsoever - when in doubt, he will always go to the old fart over the young guy. Again, if you're a team on the cusp with a bunch of old talent, by all means go for him - a team on the transition should not. Expect to see Adam Dunn told to "strike out less" and concentrate more on "putting the ball into play", and lots of utility infielders who "play the right way." The Reds have 3 genuine top 50 talents, with perhaps the best prospect in baseball - I can't think of anyone I'd want less nurturing them than Dusty Baker. Seriously - I feel for Shorty and Cougarfreak, but if you're looking forward to Dusty - you'll reap what you sow.

Dunn is the anti-thesis of a Dusty Baker player, and I guarantee he'll continue to get more crap from the old farts (Brenneman and co) for the Reds problems, while Dusty deflects all blame.

[Crapshoot]

Dola,
I realize Hattenberg was platooned, so he is not as bad as I made him out to be. He's a perfectly useful complementary part, but what the Reds gain by playing him over Votto is unclear.

[Bearcat729]

If I am not wrong Hatteberg is a free agent anyways so Votto is the only real option the Reds have at 1st except for Dunn. I'm not really happy about the Baker hiring either, but I'm not worried about Votto and Bruce more than I am about Bailey who is the first pitcher the Reds have developed who would look to be any good since Tom Browning.

[Logan]

Come on, Hatteberg got an entire chapter devoted to him in Moneyball. He's good.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Logan

Come on, Hatteberg got an entire chapter devoted to him in Moneyball. He's good.

Yeah, he's a perfectly decent player when cheap. I don't mean to disparage Hattenberg at all - but for the Reds, he makes no sense whatsoever.

[ISiddiqui]

I laugh at the Reds. And I'm not drafting any young Reds players for my fantasy team (and the one who picks Homer Bailey is going to be in for a treat, LOL).

[clintl]

You guys are delusional. Things may not have worked out in Chicago, but Baker was a damn good manager in San Francisco.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by clintl

You guys are delusional. Things may not have worked out in Chicago, but Baker was a damn good manager in San Francisco.

If by damn good you mean he put Barry Bonds in the lineup and rode his coattails then, yes, he was damn good.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by clintl

You guys are delusional. Things may not have worked out in Chicago, but Baker was a damn good manager in San Francisco.

Man... I can't wait for the rude awakening. Shall we tell him about Pitcher Abuse Points now, or wait until Harang and Bailey go on the DL?

[clintl]

I watched Baker run the Giants for 10 years. He did not burn out pitchers with the Giants. In fact, from what I remember, the Giants had a lot more injuries to starting pitchers in the Roger Craig era than in the Dusty Baker era.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by clintl

You guys are delusional. Things may not have worked out in Chicago, but Baker was a damn good manager in San Francisco.

I'm a Giants fan. Baker got gifted talent - he had the greatest player in baseball. Yes, he was very good at getting better than expected performance out of his vets, but his tactical skills were not exactly well regarded then either. His distrust of young players follows through here - ask Rich Aurillia how long it takes to earn Baker's "veteran" shine.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by clintl

I watched Baker run the Giants for 10 years. He did not burn out pitchers with the Giants. In fact, from what I remember, the Giants had a lot more injuries to starting pitchers in the Roger Craig era than in the Dusty Baker era.

He didn't have any young players to burn out!

[clintl]

Let's be fair here. Aurilia didn't exactly shine in his first opportunity as a starter (1996), and he did get the job for good in 1998. And Baker had no problem using Bill Mueller right away when he came up.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by clintl

I watched Baker run the Giants for 10 years. He did not burn out pitchers with the Giants. In fact, from what I remember, the Giants had a lot more injuries to starting pitchers in the Roger Craig era than in the Dusty Baker era.

I believe that the pitcher abuse angle is a bit overplayed here, but the non-development of young players in general, and the preposterous overemphasis on veterans at all costs (hope you like Neifi Perez, Reds fans) is not. Nor is the total permissiveness/no discipline angle. Dusty is an idiot.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

He didn't have any young players to burn out!

Russ Ortiz? Shawn Estes? Kirk Reuter?

I was looking over those Cubs injuries. Wood had Tommy John surgery four years before Baker even got there, and it's hard for me to see, given the timing and details of Prior's injuries, how Baker could be blamed for them. Most of them were either in the preseason or didn't involve his arm.

[Neuqua]

I'm just genuinely baffled people are still defending Dusty.

I was listening to sportsradio here and learned about the Cincinnati fans being overwhelmingly dissapointed and grew a level of respect for their fanbase.

[Crapshoot]

http://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/

Check out the Baker entry.

[dime]

the best part of his interview was when he crowed about how he is already getting phone calls from guys who want to come and play for him.

...get ready for your newest reds, todd walker, shawn estes and neifi perez!

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by clintl

Russ Ortiz? Shawn Estes? Kirk Reuter?

I was looking over those Cubs injuries. Wood had Tommy John surgery four years before Baker even got there, and it's hard for me to see, given the timing and details of Prior's injuries, how Baker could be blamed for them. Most of them were either in the preseason or didn't involve his arm.

Guys like Prior that have a series of non-arm injuries are usually hiding an arm injury, which we saw was clearly the case when they found out he had massive damage to his shoulder. It was clear that Prior had been hiding an arm injury for quite some time.

Wood did have Tommy John surgery 4 years before Dusty arrived, but that means Dusty should have known to be more careful with him than he was.



Look at this. These are Prior and Wood's starts in Sep/Oct of '03:

MARK PRIOR
  
DATE    OPP    IP  H  R ER HR BB SO GB FB PIT 
Sep. 1  STL   8.0  5  0  0  0  3  8  6 10 131  
Sep. 6  @MIL  7.0 10  3  3  1  1  7  9  8 129  
Sep. 11 @WAS  5.2 10  3  3  0  3  8  6  6 110  
Sep. 16 NYM   9.2  8  2  2  1  1 13  7  8 124  
Sep. 21 @PIT  8.2  6  1  1  0  2 14  6  5 131 
Sep. 27 PIT   7.2  7  2  2  1  2 10 10  6 133 
Oct. 3  ATL   9.0  2  1  1  0  4  7 11  8 133 
Oct. 8  FLA   7.0  8  3  2  2  2  5  9  7 116
Oct. 14 FLA   7.1  6  5  3  0  3  6  5 11 119  

KERRY WOOD
  
DATE    OPP    IP  H  R ER HR BB SO GB FB PIT
Sep. 2  STL   7.0  4  2  1  1  2  9  6  7 120
Sep. 7  @MIL  7.0  8  2  2  1  2  6  7 11 122
Sep. 12 CIN   6.0  5  1  1  0  4  9  5  8 114
Sep. 17 NYM   9.0  4  0  0  0  1 11  7  6 125
Sep. 23 @CIN  7.0  1  0  0  0  4 12 10  1 122
Sep. 30 @ATL  7.1  2  2  2  1  5 11  5  6 124
Oct. 5  @ATL  8.0  5  1  1  0  2  7 10  4 117
Oct. 10 @FLA  7.2  7  3  3  0  3  7 10  5 109
Oct. 15 FLA   6.2  7  7  7  1  4  6  4  3 112

Remember that Prior had just come off the DL before that Sep 2nd start.


Here's what they've done since Dusty's first year in Chicago:

MARK PRIOR, 2003-2006
  
Year   G  GS   IP      H    R   ER   HR   BB   SO    ERA 
2003  30  30  211.3  183   67   57   15   50  245   2.43  
2004  21  21  118.7  112   53   53   14   48  139   4.02  
2005  27  27  166.7  143   73   68   25   59  188   3.67  
2006   9   9   43.7   46   39   35    9   28   38   7.21  

KERRY WOOD, 2003-2006
  
Year   G  GS   IP      H    R   ER   HR   BB   SO    ERA 
2003  32  32  211.0  152   77   75   24  100  266   3.20  
2004  22  22  140.3  127   62   58   16   51  144   3.72  
2005  21  10   66.0   52   32   31   14   26   77   4.23  
2006   4   4   19.7   19   13    9    5    8   13   4.12  

Coincidence?

[dervack]

Ugh, Seeing those 130's up there give me nightmares. Anybody who doesn't think Dusty is mostly to blame for Prior's injuries is delusional.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I laugh at the Reds. And I'm not drafting any young Reds players for my fantasy team (and the one who picks Homer Bailey is going to be in for a treat, LOL).

Not just Bailey. Kills Bruce, Encarnacion, Votto and Cueto.... which all of those guys save Cueto should be on the field in April but, they won't because they will stick Freel at 3rd (who can't stay healthy), some 38 year old vet at 1st and sign some other career 5+ ERA pitcher.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by clintl

Russ Ortiz? Shawn Estes? Kirk Reuter?

You are using these three pitchers to bolster your claim?!

Estes is actually a very interesting case. He had a great year in 1997, with an ERA+ of 130. And since has not come close. His best seasons since 97 have been two years of an ERA+ of 100. Yikes!!

Reuter as well had a good 1997, with an ERA+ of 120. Since then he's only had two seasons of ERA+ over 100.

And Ortiz has been an average pitcher (but recently much worse than that) aside from his 2001 season, where he had an ERA+ of 122.

So.. you were saying?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by rowech

In addition, Prior and Wood were done before he ever did anything to them. Management kept holding out hope they would turn the corner when those guys got healthy and they just kept sitting around waiting for it to happen and of course it hasn't. Finally, they decided they had to do something.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is true that both Prior and Wood had physical/mechanical difficulties that would have prevented either from pitching injury-free, but Baker abused both of them when they were able to pitch to a degree that it was inevitable that they would break down long-term. Had either pitcher been able to (a) limit their pitch counts, (b) extend their periods of rehab, or (c) be brought back to pitch in a long-relief or mop-up role to work their arms back to strength, it isn't out of the question that either or both Prior and Wood would be pitching effectively today.

Did Dusty Baker flush Prior's and Wood's careers down the shitter? Yes. Could you prove it in a court of law? Probably not.

[Toddzilla]

On a different note, as a Cubs fan I can only hope that this means Larry Rothschild is headed out of town.

[korme]

Originally Posted by Bearcat729

If I am not wrong Hatteberg is a free agent anyways so Votto is the only real option the Reds have at 1st except for Dunn. I'm not really happy about the Baker hiring either, but I'm not worried about Votto and Bruce more than I am about Bailey who is the first pitcher the Reds have developed who would look to be any good since Tom Browning.

JORGE CANTU

[korme]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Not just Bailey. Kills Bruce, Encarnacion, Votto and Cueto.... which all of those guys save Cueto should be on the field in April but, they won't because they will stick Freel at 3rd (who can't stay healthy), some 38 year old vet at 1st and sign some other career 5+ ERA pitcher.

In all fairness, Dusty will be CRAZY if Ed Encarnacion is not starting at 3B on opening day -- he's 24, yes, but he's been our starting 3B since 2006, so there is no reason he won't continue in that role.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

In all fairness, Dusty will be CRAZY if Ed Encarnacion is not starting at 3B on opening day -- he's 24, yes, but he's been our starting 3B since 2006, so there is no reason he won't continue in that role.

Encarnacion gets yanked around more than a 13 year old boy yanks his own penis. Hell, he was even sent down to the minors early this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think he should be playing but, seems at times they don't want him to play.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by dime

...get ready for your newest reds, todd walker, shawn estes and neifi perez!

The Reds have already been through a tour of Todd Walker and Shawn Estes. I'll pass.

[dime]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

The Reds have already been through a tour of Todd Walker and Shawn Estes. I'll pass.

I was gonna say "tom goodwin" but I'm pretty sure he's been a red as well. no wonder dusty wanted to go to cincy!

[Butter]

I think the Reds had Curtis Goodwin, but not Tom.

But I'm sure someone can go to some baseball stat geek site and prove me wrong.

[dervack]

Curtis. However, the Cubs have had both.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You are using these three pitchers to bolster your claim?!

Estes is actually a very interesting case. He had a great year in 1997, with an ERA+ of 130. And since has not come close. His best seasons since 97 have been two years of an ERA+ of 100. Yikes!!

Reuter as well had a good 1997, with an ERA+ of 120. Since then he's only had two seasons of ERA+ over 100.

And Ortiz has been an average pitcher (but recently much worse than that) aside from his 2001 season, where he had an ERA+ of 122.

So.. you were saying?

What I'm saying is that they were young starting pitchers who Baker didn't burn out. Not that they were great pitchers.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by clintl

What I'm saying is that they were young starting pitchers who Baker didn't burn out. Not that they were great pitchers.

Um... There is a reason he wouldn't burn out the average or mediocre young pitchers... because they aren't any better than the bullpen would be. But a good starting pitcher is usually better than bullpen arms... at least until they get injured. And it appears that Estes and Reuter may have had promising careers derailed by Baker's abuse on their arms... as their best seasons (by far) were early in their careers.

Look at the pitch counts Prior, Wood, and Zambrano have dealt with. Only Zambrano seems to have not been destroyed by it.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Um... There is a reason he wouldn't burn out the average or mediocre young pitchers... because they aren't any better than the bullpen would be. But a good starting pitcher is usually better than bullpen arms... at least until they get injured. And it appears that Estes and Reuter may have had promising careers derailed by Baker's abuse on their arms... as their best seasons (by far) were early in their careers.

In Reuter's case, at least, that's not plausible. He was never a strikeout pitcher, had good control, and was notorious for lasting about 6 innings, but no more, in a typical outing. His pitch counts were not very high. There might be a case for saying that about Estes - he threw hard and didn't always have great control. And certainly Ortiz in his Giants days was the type of pitcher who would often have high pitch counts.