WW LXVI: Money Money Money (Game Over!)

[SnDvls]

Alan - who is your guess who the conversion was then?

name a player...do it now!!!

Call them out

[claphamsa]

I was giving blood....

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

Alan - who is your guess who the conversion was then?

name a player...do it now!!!

Call them out

I already said that my guess is Mr.Wednesday was the conversion. It makes the most sense, who was the best person to convert that night? The Thief obviously.. not only would you then not be afraid of him stealing from you, but you get his money if he went elsewhere.

I scanned Mr.W that evening, he turned up good, but we figured out that the wolf actions occur after our services, so Mr.W being the conversion makes the absolutely most sense. It makes far more sense than me being converted. If they wanted to quiet me, they would have just killed me.. They were more afraid of the thief that night than me since I had planned on scanning either Chief or Mr.W and not one of them.

[SnDvls]

and then who is the original wolf then?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

and then who is the original wolf then?

Thats a good question, I am a little stumped on that. I felt that I had methodically removed people in my mind on who it could be along the way, and actually ran out of people left to blame there.

I gave reasons why I felt it impossible for the jackal to be the wolf for the last few days. His financial totals just doesn't show how he could be the wolf.

I felt good about DaddyTorgo because he went with me to help me lynch Passacaglia, and I still feel that Passacaglia tried to save himself and just messed up. That wouldn't have been necessary if DaddyTorgo hadn't voted with me there.

I felt for most of the game that Pass tried to set you up earlier in the game and the timing of when he did it just didn't feel like a wolf vs wolf ploy to me.. It felt like he honestly was trying to get people to go after you.

And Schmidty's answers the past two days just doesn't seem wolf like to me. His finances match up correctly, and I just don't get a wolf feel..

So if one of you all are the original wolf, then I think you did well in fooling me. The only other option that I can think is that the wolves started with only two people + the conversion but started with a huge financial advantage....

Either way, no matter who's scenerio you believe Chief's gut instincts, my gut instincts, or whatever.. Mr.Wednesday ends up looking guilty in ALL of them... He is the right choice to vote today, not me.

[SnDvls]

Alan that just leaves you then as the original...the financial advantage would be too great for only 2 wolves with a conversion to overcome if one got found out early or made a mistake and would be a huge imballance in the game.

Also given that Arles & in a way Swaggs were both free rich kills for them I don't belive Barkeep would have put them so shorthanded.

[The Jackal]

I missed three votes? Crap, I thought it was only two. Anyways, I have a little over 80k at my disposal. I'll hold off on a vote today until at least Mr. W gets around.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

Alan that just leaves you then as the original...the financial advantage would be too great for only 2 wolves with a conversion to overcome if one got found out early or made a mistake and would be a huge imballance in the game.

Also given that Arles & in a way Swaggs were both free rich kills for them I don't belive Barkeep would have put them so shorthanded.

Well.. I guess if you think that I am the original wolf, then I guess that is less crazy than the idea Chief had that they converted me rather than just flat out killing me that night. The only way I can combat that is my actions that I have taken this game. I haven't gotten everything right along the way, but I feel my voting record and the actions that I have taken with my money stands up just as well as any other villager.

I have no plans on throwing you or DT or The Jackal under the bus since I honestly feel you all are good guys too. However I feel what I have tried to do this game has been just as unlikely to be a wolf either. All I am asking for is that people ask questions regarding the actions I took or how I used my money or what I chose to do with my services.. It all should add up as I had nothing to hide and I still have nothing to hide.

It makes no sense to lynch me today when all of the lines point back to Mr.W no matter who's logic you follow. What about me makes you feel that I am more of a wolf than Mr.W?

[SnDvls]

all this scrambling makes me think you are the money wolf right now and are afraid to go down with it all in hand.

You say you trust DT, Jackal & myself then prove it start moving money

I think that is the best way to prove to those that haven't voted you are who you say you are.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

all this scrambling makes me think you are the money wolf right now and are afraid to go down with it all in hand.

You say you trust DT, Jackal & myself then prove it start moving money

I think that is the best way to prove to those that haven't voted you are who you say you are.

If I was the money wolf, I could easily pass money elsewhere behind the scenes before death.. no reason to scramble unless I was the last wolf. Even in Chief's scenerio he says Mr.W AND I both are wolves.. I am denying that, but I do agree Mr.W is a wolf, and gave reasons that I felt were very logical reasons why.

Anyways, like you say. Money talks I guess.

Gift 20,000 to Sndvls
Gift 20,000 to The Jackal
Gift 20,000 to DaddyTorgo

I do think at this point you have already made your vote, I don't see any benefitial reason to use it to try to save me Sndvls if you have a change of heart. However I do wish that the Jackal and DaddyTorgo think through their vote choice before they make it and see the only logical choice today for a vote is to vote Mr.W.

[SnDvls]

There is nothing stopping me from putting in a negating vote if I feel you are being up front and honest with us.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

There is nothing stopping me from putting in a negating vote if I feel you are being up front and honest with us.

With Chief's huge bid the other night, I think we're a bit behind as far as money goes. So I would rather not see that money go to my defense so to speak unless a good reason for it comes up. I'm hoping that those who have not bid yet will consider all of the evidence on the table first before making their vote is all.

Chief was good as I suggested he was for a few days. He died good, but that doesn't mean he died 100% correct. I think he put together alot of good data for us, most of which points directly at Mr.Wednesday, not me. His reasons for suspecting me is more of a gut instinct than anything else. All I am saying is the correct vote today is Mr.Wednesday. If I'm wrong about him, then just lynch me tommorrow. Even if I'm right about him, its fine if you want to suspect me again tommorrow (if the game isn't over), but if you plan on doing so, at least bring forward your thoughts and reasons why so I can address them. I feel confident that I can reply to any questions given me in a truthful manner and make people feel better about me.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

Alan that just leaves you then as the original...the financial advantage would be too great for only 2 wolves with a conversion to overcome if one got found out early or made a mistake and would be a huge imballance in the game.

Also given that Arles & in a way Swaggs were both free rich kills for them I don't belive Barkeep would have put them so shorthanded.

I must say that I agree with this. It's either someone who's pulled the wool over quite well or this is a case of one wolf hanging the other wolf out to dry to buy trust.

I don't recall how things worked out, but could Alan have been converted BEFORE winning the seer and scanning Mr. W? That would give you a scenario where he basically could just waste the seer scan and claim W was rich. And didn't we have an awful lot of wins of services early in the game, thus indicating that perhaps the wolves converted early using a bunch of their cash?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

It makes no sense to lynch me today when all of the lines point back to Mr.W no matter who's logic you follow. What about me makes you feel that I am more of a wolf than Mr.W?

this i feel is true. if alan is indeed throwing mr. w under the bus to buy trust, then i say we take the gift

[DaddyTorgo]

although I reserve the right to make a negating vote (well so that'd be 2 votes) later based on what Mr. W says, for now I

VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

[SnDvls]

Well that ties it and puts the pressure on The Jackal as Mr. W will be voting Alan I'm sure.

[DaddyTorgo]

SnDvls - are you going to be around at deadline?
Anyone else planning to be around at deadline?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

SnDvls - are you going to be around at deadline?
Anyone else planning to be around at deadline?

Valentine's Day. My wife has other ideas for me besides Werewolf for tonight.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

this i feel is true. if alan is indeed throwing mr. w under the bus to buy trust, then i say we take the gift

Not throwing Mr.W under the bus to buy trust. My actions this entire game should be enough to warrant trust. I've done as much as anyone that is left to help the villagers out. I'm pointing people to Mr.W because I feel it is the move that makes the mose sense to us.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I must say that I agree with this. It's either someone who's pulled the wool over quite well or this is a case of one wolf hanging the other wolf out to dry to buy trust.

I don't recall how things worked out, but could Alan have been converted BEFORE winning the seer and scanning Mr. W? That would give you a scenario where he basically could just waste the seer scan and claim W was rich. And didn't we have an awful lot of wins of services early in the game, thus indicating that perhaps the wolves converted early using a bunch of their cash?

The conversion we assume happened the night there was no night kill. I won the seer bid before that. The conversion happened on the night that I made my second seer scan. The first night I cleared Hoops when several people wanted to hang him.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Not throwing Mr.W under the bus to buy trust. My actions this entire game should be enough to warrant trust. I've done as much as anyone that is left to help the villagers out. I'm pointing people to Mr.W because I feel it is the move that makes the mose sense to us.

i said "IF"

I lean towards believing you, but I think people have an inherent bias towards trusting you, so I'm trying to remain conscious of that.

Well, I will be around at deadline to hopefully prevent any funny-business

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

The conversion we assume happened the night there was no night kill. I won the seer bid before that. The conversion happened on the night that I made my second seer scan. The first night I cleared Hoops when several people wanted to hang him.

fair nuff. i couldn't remember the exact order of actions, i haven't been taking great notes this game

[DaddyTorgo]

BARKEEP

WILL YOU DO A VOTE COUNT SOMETIME BEFORE 9PM IN-THREAD?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i said "IF"

I lean towards believing you, but I think people have an inherent bias towards trusting you, so I'm trying to remain conscious of that.

Well, I will be around at deadline to hopefully prevent any funny-business

I actually have always felt the opposite. Schmidty actually even said such this game.. That he was voting me because of past games and not trusting me as a player in WW.. Not as much anything to do with this game.

I actually feel that Hoopsguy (who also usually has a real hard time trusting me) put me through the ringer earlier this game, and by the end of that he felt pretty good about me as well. I usually feel I have to work harder for trust in these games than people like Path or Swaggs or Hoopsguy for whatever reason. (Case in point, I bet no one in this game had me as their beneficiary to start this game). Probably one of those things that we won't find out until the game is over, but I bet people only started making me their beneficiary after I started gaining more trust by doing things like Push people to vote for Passacaglia or Claphasma, or my bidding on services to help the villagers.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I actually have always felt the opposite. Schmidty actually even said such this game.. That he was voting me because of past games and not trusting me as a player in WW.. Not as much anything to do with this game.

I actually feel that Hoopsguy (who also usually has a real hard time trusting me) put me through the ringer earlier this game, and by the end of that he felt pretty good about me as well. I usually feel I have to work harder for trust in these games than people like Path or Swaggs or Hoopsguy for whatever reason. (Case in point, I bet no one in this game had me as their beneficiary to start this game). Probably one of those things that we won't find out until the game is over, but I bet people only started making me their beneficiary after I started gaining more trust by doing things like Push people to vote for Passacaglia or Claphasma, or my bidding on services to help the villagers.

Actually I will say this: I had you as my beneficiary to start the game. Not anymore, but I did to start.

[DaddyTorgo]

Mr. W, Pass & Schmidty in-thread

[DaddyTorgo]

I submit that if W dies and is a wolf, this then looks VERY bad for Schmidty

[DaddyTorgo]

case in point - schmidty just fled out of the thread quickly

[DaddyTorgo]

Mr. W - interested to hear your thoughts since you are primarily on-the-block at the moment it seems

[DaddyTorgo]

there are now 3 members and 1 guest viewing the thread - Mr. W, Pass, myself, and a guest.

I know I'm good. I know Pass was bad. Mr. W & the guest (maybe Schmidty?) I don't know.

[DaddyTorgo]

surprise surprise. Mr. W left without defending himself or acknowledging anything I said.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Guys, we are getting the wool pulled over our eyes by two of the best-- Alan T and Mr. Wednesday.

It just became more and more obvious as I went through the money and considered the possibilities and what I would do as a wolf.

Mr. Wednesday is the last original wolf, and Alan T is the convert. Alan T was a full-fledged good villager up until N4!

I haven't read this through carefully yet, but you're wrong about me. I'm not a cutthroat, never have been.

On N3, they finally went after something that could help them--the Thief. Think about it. They just spent two nights checking out who had cash in the Bank, and the Thief could steal from the Bank. Mr. Wednesday bid and won this service. Actually, my guess is he has been the money wolf all along.

I've said all along why I went for the thief: the thief was the one role that could eliminate our ability to limit the wolves' gains at night by stashing all our money in the bank. He was important to the wolves for the same reason: they would be able to steal a large stash from either myself or hoops (or, subsequently, the beneficiary of a new victim with even more in the bank than either of us), or use the threat to compel us to keep more cash on hand, thus providing more fertile hauls from their nightly forays.

If Mr. Wednesday was a villager, why would he come out on the very night he won it with the fact that he had won it? He would suspect he would be killed by the wolves after succeeding in his theft, so they would get his money.

If I were a wolf, why would I announce having won the thief? The benefit to the wolves of having the thief is that they could steal money from the bank, which would otherwise be protected from them except for if they got lucky on a beneficiary (as Passacaglia did). Instead, I announced that I had the thief, which immediately renders him useless to me in the way that he would be helpful to the wolves. Now, I'm forced to announce beforehand that I'm going to steal from someone's on-hand cash... except that a) the wolves already have access to that cash through their night kills and b) nobody except the wolves would be keeping any cash on hand anyway.

The Thief was always going to be a more useful role for the wolves than for the village.

Except that if I had been luckier in my choice of wolves to steal from, I could have gotten a big hit (and a blinking red sign saying "Here's a wolf!") instead of the pittance that I got from claphamsa. It turns out that it was a more useful role for the villagers than I had imagined when I bid on it, although the real usefulness did occur to me at the time that I did win it.

And then the next day, Alan says he carried through on his plan to scan the Thief, Mr. Wednesday. Of course, he probably didn't scan anyone. Or he did just for fun. Didn't really matter. He didn't need to scan Mr.Wednesday to know he is a wolf. But he comes out the next day and says Mr. Wednesday is good! Now we have two wolves in our "COT".

That's post-bribe, though... we can't trust (and shouldn't have trusted) anyone across that event.

Mr. Wednesday, also that night, then steals money from clap, or maybe says that he does. Doesn't really matter--they planned all this. clap says he has been robbed. Mr. Wednesday comes out and says that he did. I doubt it really happened, because clap and Wednesday got their numbers wrong and clap got himself lynched. But that doesn't matter--clap was a loose end anyway, not in the "COT".

It's not my fault that clap screwed up his calculations of how he should have come by the amount of money he had on hand.

Oh, BTW, Mr. Wednesday aka the money wolf has $147,325 in the Bank, by far more than anyone else. (Alan has about $45K, third most).

I most certainly do *NOT* have that amount of money in the bank. And if you do in fact have the Friend at the Bank, you know that.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

There are fewer and fewer of you left. And now ChiefRum is the one who goes. DaddyT inherits his money.

Today's services:
Day 9:
Friend at the Bank: Learn amounts all players have in the bank
Private Investigator: Will learn the side (Cutthroat or Rich) of 1 player. Must be used night 9
Government Insider: May not be bankrupted on the day won and the following day.

Well, I see I'm not going to be able to talk with Chief Rum about my bank balance.

Barkeep, if Chief Rum came by the figure that he posted honestly, could you provide an in-thread correction?

[SnDvls]

FYI

we are on Day 8 not 9 so Barkeep's services are wrong see the 1st page for the correct services

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Mr. W - interested to hear your thoughts since you are primarily on-the-block at the moment it seems

Chief laid out a scenario that revolved around a little bit of speculation about what could have happened with the notary public, what might have been the case with the thief (which I've already discussed), and supposedly had numbers to back this all up, but didn't actually post them. We know he's not a cutthroat, but I'm honestly having a hard time following how he jumped from some stuff that was thinly-reasoned, to the conclusion that Alan and I are bad guys, and on top of that didn't have the amount I have in the bank correct.

Frankly, as useful as his bank information is (and it would have been useful), I question how readily it could turned against the wolves, particularly after the dickering about people not having money there. The wolves don't need to worry about cash on hand, and they can move money freely between themselves. Surely they would be ensuring that the money they would have in the bank could always be accounted-for publicly, with the interesting transactions always occurring out of cash on-hand?

If I'm not a wolf, who is?
* Alan: Argues that he wasn't converted because of low money. That could be a bogus argument. Or he could be an original wolf.
* SnDvls: The argument about voting in lockstep with Pass makes some sense, but that only covers through day 4, and we figure a bribe went down that night. The claphamsa thing could have been a sacrifice to buy trust.
* You: You've been flying low, with the only thing of import at any point being the vote on Pass on day 4. Could be an original wolf or a bribe.

I still think Schmidty's lone ranger act on hoops is that of a misguided villager, not a wolf.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Chief laid out a scenario that revolved around a little bit of speculation about what could have happened with the notary public, what might have been the case with the thief (which I've already discussed), and supposedly had numbers to back this all up, but didn't actually post them. We know he's not a cutthroat, but I'm honestly having a hard time following how he jumped from some stuff that was thinly-reasoned, to the conclusion that Alan and I are bad guys, and on top of that didn't have the amount I have in the bank correct.

Frankly, as useful as his bank information is (and it would have been useful), I question how readily it could turned against the wolves, particularly after the dickering about people not having money there. The wolves don't need to worry about cash on hand, and they can move money freely between themselves. Surely they would be ensuring that the money they would have in the bank could always be accounted-for publicly, with the interesting transactions always occurring out of cash on-hand?

If I'm not a wolf, who is?
* Alan: Argues that he wasn't converted because of low money. That could be a bogus argument. Or he could be an original wolf.
* SnDvls: The argument about voting in lockstep with Pass makes some sense, but that only covers through day 4, and we figure a bribe went down that night. The claphamsa thing could have been a sacrifice to buy trust.
* You: You've been flying low, with the only thing of import at any point being the vote on Pass on day 4. Could be an original wolf or a bribe.

I still think Schmidty's lone ranger act on hoops is that of a misguided villager, not a wolf.

all i can answer for is me: i'm not an original wolf and i wasn't bribed. i've just been flying low, not winning any bids and investing in CD's when possible.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

case in point - schmidty just fled out of the thread quickly

WTF? I'm at home with my 6 year old, and I'm playing WoW at the same time. Deal with it.

[SnDvls]

just to put some pressure out there

vote Mr. W

[Schmidty]

Today's vote is a cluster-something.

[DaddyTorgo]

was just saying schmidty. It's cool

gonna compile a vote-count now

Mr. W - Alan T (1668), DaddyTorgo (1715), SnDvls (1738)

Alan T - SnDvls (1669), Schmidty (1670),

[The Jackal]

vote mr. w

[DaddyTorgo]

I will be here to keep an eye on tomfoolery

[DaddyTorgo]

Mr. W - Alan T (1668), DaddyTorgo (1715), SnDvls (1738), Jackel (1741)

Alan T - SnDvls (1669), Schmidty (1670),

[DaddyTorgo]

hi jackel

[DaddyTorgo]

Jackel remains in-thread with me

[DaddyTorgo]

and now it's just me

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm going to be amazed if i'm the only one in here at deadline and there aren't any hijinks.

[DaddyTorgo]

i've got a guest

[DaddyTorgo]

it's Mr. W!

[DaddyTorgo]

gonna spread the wealth around W? or have you already passed it to the other wolf?