PING: People who know anything about the analog/digital cable conversion

[oliegirl]

My father is president of the homeowners association for their building...they currently have one cable line going into the building and then some sort of splitter that sends the line to all 32 units. He called their cable company to ask about having that one moved (long story) and they told him that because of the analog to digital conversion they are going to have to run individual lines to each of the units, which is going to cost about $8000.00 - and the reason for this is so that all the units can have the $40 converter box. When he was telling me about this I got confused because I was under the impression that as long as you had a "cable ready" tv, you would not need the converter box once the conversion was done.

Does anyone know more about this and can help clarify this for us? Thanks!!!!

[cartman]

"Cable ready" means that the TV can receive unencrypted signals just fine. But almost all of the premium content (PPV, HBO, Showtime, etc.) is encrypted. The set top box is needed to decrypt these signals.

Another possibility is that the cable that is in place now might not have enough capacity to bring HD and all the new content into the homes.

[oliegirl]

They don't want premium channels, only basic cable...the vast majority of the owners rent out their condos and don't want to worry about someone running up a bill with PPV, etc...that is where the confusion is coming from.

If they need the new higher capacity cable, can they keep the setup the way it is - with one main cable coming into the building and then a splitter? It seems like a scam to get all new wiring and 32 of the $40 boxes when they aren't going to be subscribing to the upgraded services...

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

If they need the new higher capacity cable, can they keep the setup the way it is - with one main cable coming into the building and then a splitter? It seems like a scam to get all new wiring and 32 of the $40 boxes when they aren't going to be subscribing to the upgraded services...

There are potential variables with something like this...but on the surface, you are correct. A couple of questions I would need to know about first:
1) Where/who provides your cable service? Is this from a CATV company, Dish company, Verizon, AT&T, or just an antenna setup on this building?

2) If it is not just an antenna on the building...what level of service is presently available? For example, is this an analog-only service...or analog with digital video available(i.e. with a settop box).

3) When you say "cable ready"...you might mean "Digital Cable Ready"(or DCR)...but the 2 are different terms and the latter is what is needed to receive and view digital CATV signals.

"Cable ready" refers to the more widespread typical TV's which can tune from Ch.2 thru 99(and many beyond that). But these are tuning to analog channels...hence why you would need a digital settop box to view digital services.

4) Were your father's community members(the one's with DCR TV's) viewing the local HD services previously?

5) Is your father's HOA requesting, wanting, or trying to get more advanced services available to the community? For instance, Video on Demand, PPV, or High Speed Internet? I know you said no to this already...but it's the only realistic reason i can see. Even then...it may not be necessary...but it is much more plausible.

There are many potential reasons for why new cable could be necessary for that type of building (Multi-Dwelling unit, or MDU), but analog to digital transition for local broadcasters is not really one of them. Unless they are using Verizon...or possibly have competing video providers in the building.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

There are potential variables with something like this...but on the surface, you are correct. A couple of questions I would need to know about first:
1) Where/who provides your cable service? Is this from a CATV company, Dish company, Verizon, AT&T, or just an antenna setup on this building?

2) If it is not just an antenna on the building...what level of service is presently available? For example, is this an analog-only service...or analog with digital video available(i.e. with a settop box).

3) When you say "cable ready"...you might mean "Digital Cable Ready"(or DCR)...but the 2 are different terms and the latter is what is needed to receive and view digital CATV signals.

"Cable ready" refers to the more widespread typical TV's which can tune from Ch.2 thru 99(and many beyond that). But these are tuning to analog channels...hence why you would need a digital settop box to view digital services.

4) Were your father's community members(the one's with DCR TV's) viewing the local HD services previously?

5) Is your father's HOA requesting, wanting, or trying to get more advanced services available to the community? For instance, Video on Demand, PPV, or High Speed Internet? I know you said no to this already...but it's the only realistic reason i can see. Even then...it may not be necessary...but it is much more plausible.

There are many potential reasons for why new cable could be necessary for that type of building (Multi-Dwelling unit, or MDU), but analog to digital transition for local broadcasters is not really one of them. Unless they are using Verizon...or possibly have competing video providers in the building.

Wow Here goes...

1. Cable co is MediaCom, in AL...they are now also providing phone and internet services as well, not sure if that means anything. They are going to be getting wireless installed for the bldg through MediaCom as well, not sure if that matter...

2. I know the newer tv in their unit doesn't have a cable box, but the older tv does...and they both get the same channels, just standard basic cable

3. No idea...that one confused me

4. As far as we know, no one in the bldg has HDTV's as of now, they've been told by the rental agencies that as their TV's need to be replaced they need to get HDTV's, but no one (condo owner) has requested HDTV service or said anything about it in the discussions they've had.

5. No, they all agree that keeping just basic cable is the best thing to do b/c of the renters. They don't want to change the cable service they are currently receiving at all.

Thanks!!!

[jbergey22]

A lot of cable companies are moving towards getting rid of Analog completely within in a few years. They are probably just trying to force your father into getting this service switched early so the rentors will have access to this other stuff. I am not certain cable companies will get their wish in the time frame they wanted but it seems that Analog may be all but disappearing within 2-5 years.

[cartman]

The analog to digital switch for broadcasting is slated to occur on Feb. 17th, 2009. But that really only affects people still using antennas to receive their broadcasts. Here is the site the FCC has put up with the info regarding the switchover.

http://www.dtv.gov/index.html

[cartman]

This part from the FAQs on the site might be the answer:

Will cable customers with analog TVs have to buy or rent a set-top box from their cable company? If so, how much will it cost?

First, it's important to know that the February 17, 2009 deadline for the digital television transition only applies to full-power broadcast stations. Cable companies are not required by the government to transition their systems to digital, and can continue to deliver channels to their customers in analog. Cable companies are actually required by FCC rules to continue offering local broadcast stations to their customers in analog as long as they offer any analog service. This requirement will continue for at least three years after February 17, 2009. The Commission will decide in 2011 whether the requirement should be continued beyond February 17, 2012. This means that customers who receive analog cable service (without a cable set-top box) will be able to continue to do so.

However, for business reasons (among other things, digital is much more efficient than analog), cable companies may be interested in transitioning their systems from analog delivery to digital delivery. If a cable company makes the business decision to go all-digital (meaning it will stop offering any channels to its customers in analog), it must ensure that its analog customers can continue to watch their local broadcast stations. This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box. If the cable company provides the customer with a set-top box, any costs related to it will be determined by the cable company. Therefore, it is recommended that analog cable customers contact their cable company to ask if a set-top box will be needed, when it will be needed, and if there will be a cost.

It is also important to note that a cable set-top box is different from a digital-to-analog converter box. A digital-to-analog converter box is necessary only for analog televisions that receive their programming over-the-air using a rooftop antenna or "rabbit ears" connected to the set. A digital-to-analog converter box is not necessary for a TV connected to a paid television service such as a cable or satellite TV provider. Information on any set-top boxes needed for a paid service such as cable or satellite should be obtained from the service provider.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

1. Cable co is MediaCom, in AL...they are now also providing phone and internet services as well, not sure if that means anything. They are going to be getting wireless installed for the bldg through MediaCom as well, not sure if that matter...

This is definitely no reason to run new cable. It's wireless after all.

Quite possible the building could require some sort of additional trunk line ran into it(pending what exists today)...but it certainly wouldnt require new lines to each unit.

5. No, they all agree that keeping just basic cable is the best thing to do b/c of the renters. They don't want to change the cable service they are currently receiving at all.

Do you have a rough idea how many units(individual condos) are in this building? Do you know happen to have an idea how old the building is?

This makes me think that they want to run the new cable in order to encourage more advanced services like VOD or PPV. I suspect there are components (like splitters & amplifiers) in the building which cannot pass frequencies that are needed to support the advanced services. But again...this is not a "cable" problem...it is a component problem. And does not sound like an $8000 component problem.

Did they send somebody out to survey the building? Did this person have a Mediacom van, truck, etc? Or did the person appear to be a contractor(i.e. personal truck/van)? Contractors make a lot more running new lines to units than they do just replacing some splitters.

All in all...it has nothing to do with local OTA broadcaster analog-to-digital migration. It sounds like either (a) Mediacom trying to prep the building for advanced services(VOD, PPV, etc.) or (b) Some contractor trying to get some extra work that isn't necessary.

[oliegirl]

The building has 32 units, and I'm not sure if someone has been out there. Part of the problem is that he lives in Atlanta and is trying to handle this remotely via phone calls, and also - he's 65 years old and doesn't understand alot of what they are talking about, so then he comes to me, and I come here

I'll definitely pass along all the info you guys have given me and will post more questions if we have them. Thanks so much! This is a huge help!

[SteveMax58]

32 units??? I thought you were going to say at least 75 for that price. There are some definite variables that can make a small job difficult...but that does not sound right at all. I engineer and consult for companies like Mediacom and rebuild their facility systems for a living. If that is typical for a 32 unit rewire...I think I'm in the wrong side of the business.

Yeah...sounds like a contractor trying to get rich on him.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

32 units??? I thought you were going to say at least 75 for that price. There are some definite variables that can make a small job difficult...but that does not sound right at all. I engineer and consult for companies like Mediacom and rebuild their facility systems for a living. If that is typical for a 32 unit rewire...I think I'm in the wrong side of the business.

Yeah...sounds like a contractor trying to get rich on him.

Nope, 8 floors, 4 units per floor...and each unit is the same, 2+2 mirror images of each other. The bldg isn't that old either, it was built in 1980 (or around there) and had a LOT of reconstruction after Hurricane Ivan came through...that is why they want the main line moved, they ran it through the garbage chute in order to get their CO and now want it moved back to the "covered tunnel" that is set up on the outside of the bldg.

Anyway, I'm going to share all this info with him tonight...I'll definitely let you know if we need any more help...thanks Steve!

[Synovia]

Are there standard coax jacks in each unit? (RG59 IIRC)?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Are there standard coax jacks in each unit? (RG59 IIRC)?

If a coax jack is the port/connection where the cable connects from the tv to the wall, then yes. Each unit has 3 - one in the family/living room, and one in each bedroom.

[stevew]

I guess 250 a unit is expensive, but that could easily be recouped over a year or two, anyways by passing the costs down to the tenants. I also think that it could probably be bid out? I'm not sure the cable company has to do it, rg59 is rg59, no real reason why someone else couldn't wire it appropriately. At least from the units to the base.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by stevew

I guess 250 a unit is expensive, but that could easily be recouped over a year or two, anyways by passing the costs down to the tenants. I also think that it could probably be bid out? I'm not sure the cable company has to do it, rg59 is rg59, no real reason why someone else couldn't wire it appropriately. At least from the units to the base.

They can pay it if they have to, the association has the money, but if they are paying for stuff they don't need, well - that is stupid...and if you knew my dad, you'd know that he won't do it unless that is the only way to get cable to the building after the conversion in 09.

Anyway, I'm sending him an email tonight with all this info...we'll see how it goes.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

A lot of cable companies are moving towards getting rid of Analog completely within in a few years. They are probably just trying to force your father into getting this service switched early so the rentors will have access to this other stuff. I am not certain cable companies will get their wish in the time frame they wanted but it seems that Analog may be all but disappearing within 2-5 years.

Analog will remain on Cable till at least 2012. Which honestly sucks. I would prefer we would change over to digital in 2009 like everything else, we (the cable company) could really use the wasted frequencies that analog currently resides on.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

This is definitely no reason to run new cable. It's wireless after all.

Quite possible the building could require some sort of additional trunk line ran into it(pending what exists today)...but it certainly wouldnt require new lines to each unit.

That depends, if they cable company came out and did a survey, and they saw that the cable running into the units was RG59 with old splitters they might require that the building is rewired, because when they change from analog to digital (in a few years) it will affect the service a little differently (instead of fuzzy picture, you will get digital breakup or just a black picture). It all sort of depends on what exactly the cable company is trying to do with this rewire.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by stevew

I guess 250 a unit is expensive, but that could easily be recouped over a year or two, anyways by passing the costs down to the tenants. I also think that it could probably be bid out? I'm not sure the cable company has to do it, rg59 is rg59, no real reason why someone else couldn't wire it appropriately. At least from the units to the base.

Of course they should be using RG6...

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by dangarion

That depends, if they cable company came out and did a survey, and they saw that the cable running into the units was RG59 with old splitters they might require that the building is rewired, because when they change from analog to digital (in a few years) it will affect the service a little differently (instead of fuzzy picture, you will get digital breakup or just a black picture). It all sort of depends on what exactly the cable company is trying to do with this rewire.

Yeah...but the premise of the cable co coming out was to relocate the drop to the building to a different location. It wasnt a trouble call or a service upgrade. Basically...the analog service(possibly digital, she mentioned some STB's in some units) works one day...HOA asks cable co to relocate the drop...cable co's rep(possibly an MDU contractor) says he needs to rewire the building now because of OTA A/D migration. Either the story is wrong, or the diagnosis is BS. It's quite possible 'something' needs to be done to account for the distance of the old drop location to the new drop location...but this should be the cost of an amp(potentially) and some additional cable & labor.

Besides...this cable company already serves digital video, VOD, and HSD. When you add these advanced services to an existing network...you dont go out and rebalance RF levels in every MDU, necessarily. Not if the OSP was engineered properly, that is. The splitters are a definite candidate to be replaced...but not if the HOA does not want the advanced services.

I cannot think of a scenario, all things considered, where a complete rewire is necessary...given the HOA's desires and the fact that the service was(and probably is right now) operational.

[oliegirl]

Service is totally operational at this point...there is NO problem with their current service. It all started when he called to ask about having the line relocated, and to inquire about getting wireless for the building. He told me that they said he needed a "new" cable that had tv/internet/phone "all in one", that it was 3 different cables "bundled" together, so even if they aren't going to use MediaCom's phone service (which they aren't), they will still be wired for it. Same with the internet, even though the individual units don't need it because they are going wireless, they will still be wired for it...that combined with the cable conversion started the confusion and curiosity as to why they needed to pay $8k...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Y

I cannot think of a scenario, all things considered, where a complete rewire is necessary...given the HOA's desires and the fact that the service was(and probably is right now) operational.

I agree with you, it sounds sort of fishy. But then I don't work on that side as much, I'm just a Regional Technical Trainer for our Technical Operations department.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Service is totally operational at this point...there is NO problem with their current service. It all started when he called to ask about having the line relocated, and to inquire about getting wireless for the building. He told me that they said he needed a "new" cable that had tv/internet/phone "all in one", that it was 3 different cables "bundled" together, so even if they aren't going to use MediaCom's phone service (which they aren't), they will still be wired for it. Same with the internet, even though the individual units don't need it because they are going wireless, they will still be wired for it...that combined with the cable conversion started the confusion and curiosity as to why they needed to pay $8k...

Sounds to me like the contractor thinks you want all the units rewired (coax, ethernet, and phone wires), not that you just want the main line to the building moved (IMO).

[stevew]

Originally Posted by dangarion

Of course they should be using RG6...

yeah, i had that the first time, but then I decided to edit.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by dangarion

I agree with you, it sounds sort of fishy. But then I don't work on that side as much, I'm just a Regional Technical Trainer for our Technical Operations department.

Yeah I havent been on that side of things myself in quite a few years now...so my sticker shock at $8000 might be a little dated. But I do have to account these types of setups when looking at a system network upgrade, addition, etc.

As stevew mentioned, $250/unit, ~$83 per new line(assuming just 3 coax runs, less per cable if also adding cat 5) may not be a bad price to do the work...but is the work really necessary just to move a drop...sounds a little off.

If I'm not mistaken, I think CU Tiger on this board has his own Home A/V integrations company, or some sort of A/V integrations company...he might be able to better comment on whether the price is inflated.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

32 units??? I thought you were going to say at least 75 for that price. There are some definite variables that can make a small job difficult...but that does not sound right at all. I engineer and consult for companies like Mediacom and rebuild their facility systems for a living. If that is typical for a 32 unit rewire...I think I'm in the wrong side of the business.

Yeah...sounds like a contractor trying to get rich on him.

If we are not fishing walls and pop and drop (exposed wire on outside of building) $50/line is normal. Of course Id work out a package deal for this size.

Hell Ill start Monday for 5k site unseen and save ya 3k
We got a deal?


They definitely dont unerstand what you want. Sounds like they are talking about running a "tech wire"


which is quite expensive, I currently pay .80/ft for bulk spools.

This cable runs to one location and gives cable, phone and even audio wires in one jacket, if they are pulling 32 runs of that (1 to each building) JUMP ON IT AND DONT LET THEM BACK OUT.

PM me if you like and Ill send you my number, Id be glad to talk to your dad and see what he is looking for and be an intermediary (or conference in) with his local cable company rep.