Fire Zone Blitz, 3-5-3, 3-3-5: Anyone know much about these defenses?

[Poli]

Last year, thanks to BYU 14, I was able to sit in with his coaching staff at a coaching clinic. One of the collegiate coaches presented the 3-5-3 defense, and it looked...interesting. He said more than once that if he went back to the high school ranks that it would be the defense he would use. I really liked a lot of what he did with giving the players 'freedom' to move around pre-snap.

It appears I'll be rejoining the coaching ranks this year (thankfully!)...so now I'm looking at potential defenses, concepts, and the like. I just figured I'd ask if anyone out there's seen these type of defenses in action and what to expect.

[cartman]

Would you be able to have the depth at LB in high school to run a 3-5-3? I see a lot of high schools in Texas moving to the 3-3-5, because there are a lot more DB types to hit the field than LB or DL.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by cartman

Would you be able to have the depth at LB in high school to run a 3-5-3? I see a lot of high schools in Texas moving to the 3-3-5, because there are a lot more DB types to hit the field than LB or DL.

Our kids aren't that big to begin with...so LB's are almost the same size as DB's, just a little slower. The lack of big guys for the defensive line is definitely a reason I'm looking at these defenses, though.

[Dr. Sak]

Is the 3-5-3 what West Virginia has run the past few years? If so, I think my old high school uses that as a base defense.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bsak16

Is the 3-5-3 what West Virginia has run the past few years? If so, I think my old high school uses that as a base defense.

They've been running the 3-3-5.

[Poli]

I've seen them referred to as essentially the same defense, which is why I lumped them together.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Fair warning: this is way outside my area of expertise, but I'm going to think out loud for a moment or two.

-- Doing some online reading, I keep seeing the 3-5-3 described as being born as a response to the increased use of the spread offense. While it doesn't seem to be exclusive to that use, I have to think that the origin might indicate one of the areas of strength. So are you likely to encounter a lot of spread (or similar offenses?

-- Considering the reason behind you looking at this, I suspect this article might be useful (if you haven't seen it already)

-- And this more general article seems like a decent basic read for anybody who find this interesting but isn't particularly familiar with the scheme

-- Finally, here's a hard to read ramble from what appears to be a HS level coach but there might be a useful nugget or two in there somewhere for you.

[MacroGuru]

Well, I can cover it for you to see, but I am talking to you now on IM...however, I will post my experiences with this and the 4-2-5 and what I have found has been the best for both.

[chesapeake]

My HS football coach was the dad of SF QB Alex Smith. He was a great high school coach. My junior year, his wife got a job in another state, so he was leaving and the school started interviewing his successor. Somehow, I ended up being the student rep on the search panel.

Short story long, I asked him for help as to what offensive/defensive philosophy we should be looking for in a candidate. He told me that, if someone comes in at this level with a great O and D scheme, throw away their resume. You pick the scheme that fits your talent that season.

I'm sure he had schemes he preferred over others, but since your talent pool is so limited, even at a moderately big high school like mine, you have to go with what you have. So, ultimately, my question is -- do you have a lot of talent at DB? Or maybe a bunch of big kids?

[MacroGuru]

Ok, in the HS and college ranks running the 3-3-5, we had the following.

DE - Long and Lean, quick off the ball, good at getting into the QB, disrupting things. However, has to be able to drop back into zone coverage on a Zone Blitz

NT - Has to be a big guy, he needs to be able to plug the middle up, usually ends up forcing the double team so it opens a gap for a LB or SS to shoot.

DE - Long and Lean, quick off the ball, good at getting into the QB, disrupting things.
However, has to be able to drop back into zone coverage on a Zone Blitz

OLB
MLB
OLB

All three LB's have to be fast, speed is the essence with these guys, your MLB is generally a run stuffer as he is crashing up the middle area, taking the open gap.

Your OLB's if they aren't blitzing, they are dropping into zone coverage, but as with any LB they are reading run first, then dropping.

CB's
Your two corners are almost always in a zone type defense. They do not blitz a lot, unless you know you can sneak one in.

SS
He is a blitzer, run stopper, but also has to cover. He is almost like having a 4th LB out there with speed.

FS
Your general, he is running the show with the secondary, ensuring that he is never beat deep, and if anyone comes in the middle, he eats them.

Katback (Or whatever you want to call them)
Hybrid FS/SS role, he is a blitzer as well, in the cover three he is a roamer if he isn't blitzing, in a cover 4, he has his half of the field.

The whole goal of this defense is disruption and confusion. Your opposing QB is not knowing where the blitz is coming from, he just knows it is coming. Your masking coverages, and bringing them from all over.

Because of the Zone Blitz, it allows for less yards gained running, but at times can give up the big pass play, especially if you are going against smart WR's who know how to sit in the zone.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

Somehow, I ended up being the student rep on the search panel.

Wow. Off hand I can't say I've ever heard of such a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see a thing wrong with it or anything, I'm just kind of ... stunned. I can't imagine a student being formally involved in a coaching search/hire at any school I've ever been familiar with.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

My HS football coach was the dad of SF QB Alex Smith. He was a great high school coach. My junior year, his wife got a job in another state, so he was leaving and the school started interviewing his successor. Somehow, I ended up being the student rep on the search panel.

Interestingly enough, I was out at Helix High for my Pop Warner clinics in 2002.

Generally speaking, you want to be flexible enough offensively and defensively to be able to best fit your personnel. If someone's too stubborn to adapt, they're in trouble.

I've been more of a 4-3 and 5-2 Eagle guy in the past. I'd like to think I'm willing to adapt.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wow. Off hand I can't say I've ever heard of such a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see a thing wrong with it or anything, I'm just kind of ... stunned. I can't imagine a student being formally involved in a coaching search/hire at any school I've ever been familiar with.

I was the nominal "voice of the student" on the panel. I guess the thinking was that a school's football coach is really a central figure in the high school community -- more so than a regular teacher -- so having a full panel do the hire was warranted in this case.

In retrospect, all the interviewing panel really did was rubber-stamp the existing football coach's selection of his own successor. I am not a rubber-stamp kind of guy, but our coach at the time was a rare combination of great math teacher and great coach. The work was done on the front end to ensure that the folks we interviewed were qualified teachers, so we looked to the football guy to make the decision on the coaching ability.

I ended up in a pretty awkward position. One of the applicants was the existing defensive coordinator and my history teacher. To his eternal credit, he never held the fact that the school picked someone else against me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I was the nominal "voice of the student" on the panel.

Yeah, I get the intention, I've just never heard of that being part of the process anywhere before.

[Poli]

I've heard of it, never seen it done.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Poli

I've heard of it, never seen it done.

And considering what I know of coaching searches in Georgia, it isn't something you'd want to expose kids to anyway. Cronyism, politics, and more under the table deals than you can shake a stick at. Maybe student involvement should qualify as some sort of Civics or American Government credit?

[st.cronin]

It seems like this defense requires smarter players than your typical 4-3.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

It seems like this defense requires smarter players than your typical 4-3.

Definitely, it requires more than just smash the other side.

You have to understand the different offenses, their schemes and your opponents. Knowing how a WR tends to break their route or settle into the zone.

Also takes faith as a team. A lot of times, you are on an island in coverage and if your DL/LB's don't get the job done up front, then you are it on the coverage. With a FS MAYBE being over the top.

Playing as a FS and SS in this type of defense was definitely a learning experience for me. I actually picked up a ton of knowledge on how an offense can discect a defense just by watching all the game film I had to.

[BrianD]

I always find these discussions interesting as an example of how different High School football is in different areas of the country. Wisconsin teams pretty much never have to worry about how a receiver breaks a route or settles into a zone. Seeing a team pass 5 times in a game is unusual up here.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I always find these discussions interesting as an example of how different High School football is in different areas of the country. Wisconsin teams pretty much never have to worry about how a receiver breaks a route or settles into a zone. Seeing a team pass 5 times in a game is unusual up here.

And most of the defenses you see are probably 5-2 and 4-4 stack.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Seeing a team pass 5 times in a game is unusual up here.

Sounds like Class A & a lot of Class AA (smallest schools) in Georgia, although it's probably more accurate if I say seeing them complete more than three passes in a game is what's unusual.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

And most of the defenses you see are probably 5-2 and 4-4 stack.

I think we always played a 4-4. There was never any discussion of smart players or decisions on the field. Everybody knew what everybody else was going to do, it was just a matter of technique and execution. Heck, our coach started every game of his 24-year (I think) coaching career with the same offensive play.

[Barkeep49]

What kind of coaching situation will you be doing?

[Poli]

Junior high level at the town I'm at. I suspect I'll have the same sort of arrangement with my old coach at his school as well.

He's retired, unretired, retired, and now coaching freshmen instead.

[Poli]

As luck would have it, I'm going to be sitting down with the local high school coach to discuss opportunities there this year.

They've got a nice field!

[Zelig]

I have about 60 playbooks covering this and some info you might like, I will PM you.

[Zelig]

I also have a 100 page Word Document where coaches are discussing the 3-3-5, I think you would find it very interesting and helpful. PM me and I will send you the link.

[Poli]

Thanks, Z! Much appreciated!