Football Officiating - Career Progression

[Dr. Sak]

I decided to start a little question of the day (or few times a week) where I ask a question pertaining to NFHS High School Football Rules and those on the board can chime in with their answers.

This will also help me keep sharp with the rules since the season is quickly approaching. Here is a key to some of the shortcuts I will use.

EZ = End Zone, FC = Fair Catch, FG = Field Goal, GL = Goal Line, KO = Kick Off, LOS = Line of Scrimmage, NZ = Neutral Zone, PSK = Post scrimmage Kick (Punt), OB = Out Of Bounds, TD = Touchdown, YD = Yardline, TO = Time out.

The letter [A] will represent the offense, [b] will represent the defense, [K] is the kicking team, [R] is the receiving team.

[Dr. Sak]

Today's question...

It is 3rd and 20 on A's 4 where A1 fumbles. The ball is motionless on the 3 yard line when B2 tries to recover it, but instead he muffs it into A's EZ,. The ball is recovered there by A9 who begins to advance. B4 tackles A9 by the facemask in the EZ.

The final result of the play is __________. B's foul is enforced from the basic spot which is ________yard line. Where will the ball finally be placed?

[Suburban Rhythm]

we answering here, or in a PM?

[Dr. Sak]

You can just answer here.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I'll say

-Result of the play Touchback. Fall fumbled into the EZ and recovered there.

-Original spot is 20 yard line due to touchback.
-Final spot is the 35 yard line once 15 yard facemask penalty is added.

[albionmoonlight]

Result of the play is a safety, so the offense will accept the penalty.

The basic spot is the four.

The ball will finally be placed on the 19.

[Passacaglia]

I'll say:
Safety
Zero
5 or 15

[stevew]

3R, bf, fi

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Result of the play is a safety, so the offense will accept the penalty.

The basic spot is the four.

The ball will finally be placed on the 19.

This matches what I thought.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Result of the play is a safety, so the offense will accept the penalty.

The basic spot is the four.

The ball will finally be placed on the 19.

This is what I was thinking, with the assumption that it is a personal foul face mask rather than a five yard face mask.

I believe penalties against the defense that occur behind the LOS are enforced from the LOS.

[Dr. Sak]

I'll give the answer around lunchtime (as well as why that answer is correct) and ask another after lunch. The correct answer has been given, but which one is it??

[Celeval]

I'm going to go with dead ball when it comes to rest at the 3-yard line. A retains possession, foul is after the play and enforced from the 3, 4th and 6 at the 18 yard line.

[Celeval]

Well, I guess not. :-D

[albionmoonlight]

BTW, this feature is an awesome idea, Dr. Sak.

I can't be the only person here who, in the 80s, looked forward to the "IBM Presents: You Make the Call" commercials as much as the actual MNF games.

At least, I hope that I'm not. FOFC is not one of those places where you want to end up being on the geeky side of the bell curve.

[Passacaglia]

No worries, albion -- I dug that, too.

[Surtt]

I agree with Passacaglia.

I think the face mask is enforced at the spot of the foul; or in this case at the goal line.

[BrianD]

For future reference, does the NFHS make their rule book available online anywhere? I keep toying with the idea of becoming certified to do high school football games, but I would really need to study up first.

[Dr. Sak]

A little hint...some of you are overlooking what "force" put that ball into the endzone.

[st.cronin]

I think albion got it right.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

For future reference, does the NFHS make their rule book available online anywhere? I keep toying with the idea of becoming certified to do high school football games, but I would really need to study up first.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/08/football.aspx

That's not the rule book but if you go to your state officiating site you can apply for a small fee to take the test and be sent the rule book. I just got my 2008 copy last night at my rules interpretation meeting.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I'll say

-Result of the play Touchback. Fall fumbled into the EZ and recovered there.

-Original spot is 20 yard line due to touchback.
-Final spot is the 35 yard line once 15 yard facemask penalty is added.

I'm agree.

[Dr. Sak]

Question: It is 3rd and 20 on A's 4 where A1 fumbles. The ball is motionless on the 3 yard line when B2 tries to recover it, but instead he muffs it into A's EZ,. The ball is recovered there by A9 who begins to advance. B4 tackles A9 by the facemask in the EZ.

The final result of the play is __________. B's foul is enforced from the basic spot which is ________yard line. Where will the ball finally be placed?

Answer:

Spoiler

The force that put the ball on the 3 yard line was A fumbling the ball, but it was B's attempt to pick up the ball and being muffed is the force that put the ball into the endzone. Therefore, it is not a safety, it is a touchback.

The penalty on the play was an unsportmanlike facemask which is a 15 yard penalty as most of you know, but with this penalty it is enforced from the succeeding spot. In this case the basic spot for this foul is the succeeding spot, or the 20 yardline after the touchback.

The ball will be placed on A's 35 where A will have it 1st and 10.

Suburban Rhythm and Poli got it correct.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'll say:
Safety
Zero
5 or 15

I would agree with this. Since the player tried to gain yardage off of the play I do not believe it would result in a touchback. Then since he tackled him by his facemask it would be a 15 yard automatic first down penalty taken from the spot which is the GL so it would be spotted at the 15 yard-line.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

I would agree with this. Since the player tried to gain yardage off of the play I do not believe it would result in a touchback. Then since he tackled him by his facemask it would be a 15 yard automatic first down penalty taken from the spot which is the GL so it would be spotted at the 15 yard-line.

It doesn't matter if you attempt to gain yardage as long as you don't leave the end zone.

[albionmoonlight]

My mistake was thinking that the attempt to leave the endzone turned a possible touchback into a safety.

Dr. Sak, what would have happened had there been no facemask? It would have been a touchback, but what would the down and distance have been?

[Dr. Sak]

Next question:

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Dr. Sak, what would have happened had there been no facemask? It would have been a touchback, but what would the down and distance have been?

If no facemask it still would be a touchback with the ball being placed on the 20, 1st and 10 for A.

[jeheinz72]

Defenses ball since the INT happened before the penalty.

I think in either case it's 1st and 10 at B's 10 yard line (with B having the ball)

[digamma]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

My mistake was thinking that the attempt to leave the endzone turned a possible touchback into a safety.

Dr. Sak, what would have happened had there been no facemask? It would have been a touchback, but what would the down and distance have been?

In looking back at the question, the key is that the ball was motionless at the 3. The initial "impetus" of the fumble is stopped at that point and the muff gives it new "impetus" and results in the touchback. Motionless is the key word in the question and one that I didn't pick up on in my first reading.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question: It is 3rd and 20 on A's 4 where A1 fumbles. The ball is motionless on the 3 yard line when B2 tries to recover it, but instead he muffs it into A's EZ,. The ball is recovered there by A9 who begins to advance. B4 tackles A9 by the facemask in the EZ.

The final result of the play is __________. B's foul is enforced from the basic spot which is ________yard line. Where will the ball finally be placed?

Answer:

Spoiler

The force that put the ball on the 3 yard line was A fumbling the ball, but it was B's attempt to pick up the ball and being muffed is the force that put the ball into the endzone. Therefore, it is not a safety, it is a touchback.

The penalty on the play was an unsportmanlike facemask which is a 15 yard penalty as most of you know, but with this penalty it is enforced from the succeeding spot. In this case the basic spot for this foul is the succeeding spot, or the 20 yardline after the touchback.

The ball will be placed on A's 35 where A will have it 1st and 10.

Suburban Rhythm and Poli got it correct.

Is this different in the NFL?

[Dr. Sak]

I can't vouch for the NFL. But in another year I'll be able to do this for the NCAA

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Next question:

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?

A) B's ball on B 10 yard line - Touchback out to the 20, half the distance penalty (I believe the illegal block is a 15 yarder)

B) B's ball on B 2 yard line- B2 still tackled in the EZ, but thinking the call will be, much like on a kick/punt return, a spot foul, and marked off half the distance from the spot of the foul.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

BTW, this feature is an awesome idea, Dr. Sak.

I can't be the only person here who, in the 80s, looked forward to the "IBM Presents: You Make the Call" commercials as much as the actual MNF games.

At least, I hope that I'm not. FOFC is not one of those places where you want to end up being on the geeky side of the bell curve.

Someone photoshop Dr. Sak's face onto this guy

[Dr. Sak]

Look in the background.

[albionmoonlight]

Let's see. The play, sans penalty, would be a touchback for the reasons explained above in the first example.

I would say that both penalties would be enforced from the 20 yard line, so it would be first and ten for team B from their own ten in example A and example B.

It seems strange to me that the spot of the foul would matter on an interception return when the play ends up being a touchback.

[larrymcg421]

a) Safety
b) 2 yard line

[Poli]

a) 10 yard line.
b) 2 yard line.

[BrianD]

I believe the first one would spot at the 10 yard line. I don't believe high school has the rule to call a safety on a penalty while the ball is in the end zone. Also, since being tackled in the end zone wouldn't be a safety, a penalty to avoid the tackle shouldn't result in a safety either.

The second one is a bit tougher. With the change of possession, I would put the basic spot at the goal line. Since the foul occurred beyond the basic spot, I think that is where you enforce the penalty. Ball at the 2.

[digamma]

I think 10 yard line is correct for A). I think the basic spot of enforcement for penalties that occur in the end zone after a change of possession (with the new "attacking" team leaving the end zone) is the 20 yard line.

I'm not sure if this changes with B or not.

[Dr. Sak]

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?


Answer:

Spoiler

Blocking below the waste is a spot foul much like holding. So the basic spot is the location where the illegal block occurred.

a) If there was no penalty and B2 was tackled in the Endzone, it would be a touchback and the ball would be placed on the 20. If you think when A has the ball and A commits a penalty in their own endzone, a safety is called. The same rules apply to B. Since B commited a foul in their own endzone, it is considered a safety. Two points are awarded to A and B has a free kick from the 20.

b) The spot of the foul is B's 4 yard line. B would retain the ball 1st and 10 from their own 2 yard line.

Only one person, larrymcg421, got them both correct.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Curiousity question regarding the answer to part A in question 2-

The way you explain it makes sense-- for example a holding call while passing out of the endzone.

Does ANY penalty committed in the EZ by possessing team while the ball is in the EZ result in a safety?

For arguments sake...QB drops back in to EZ, WR trying to beat press coverage grabs the facemask of the CB who pushes him back into the EZ.

[Dr. Sak]

Yes. The facemask would have to occur clearly in the Endzone. If there is any doubt, the spot of the foul is the 1 yard line.

[Poli]

I'd stab you if you made that call against my team, just so you know.

[Dr. Sak]

It's not my fault your team is dirty!

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?


Answer:

Spoiler

Blocking below the waste is a spot foul much like holding. So the basic spot is the location where the illegal block occurred.

a) If there was no penalty and B2 was tackled in the Endzone, it would be a touchback and the ball would be placed on the 20. If you think when A has the ball and A commits a penalty in their own endzone, a safety is called. The same rules apply to B. Since B commited a foul in their own endzone, it is considered a safety. Two points are awarded to A and B has a free kick from the 20.

b) The spot of the foul is B's 4 yard line. B would retain the ball 1st and 10 from their own 2 yard line.

Only one person, larrymcg421, got them both correct.

Interesting. I think this rule is different in college--at least for A.

[BrianD]

My track record isn't very good so far. The penalty in the end zone setup was interesting. In most cases, for this to happen, the offense would have to retreat into the end zone such that a tackle would be a safety. If the defense takes possession of the ball in the end zone, it isn't a safety if they get tackled. Making that the result of the penalty seems oddly harsh. Not that the rule isn't written that way, it just seems harsh.

[Dr. Sak]

Okay here are a few more. To make it easy...quote this post and put your answers underneath. I'm actually enjoying doing this...hopefully you all are too. For the true and false ones, if the answer is false can you explain why?

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?


Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.


Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

Offsetting penalties, replay down.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line..

A's ball, 1st down and goal to go at just outside the 10 yard line

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

False. Because it did not touch the ground, A interfered with B. Penalty on A for interference.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

B's personal foul (clipping) swallows up the other two penalties. Because the clipping occured after the interception, the change of possession counts. I think that A would end up with first and ten after the fumble and have the 15 yard clipping penalty tacked on.

: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

A's ball, 1st and goal from the 10. Take the holding penalty from the spot of the foul--in this case the goal line--and replay the down.

True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

True, I don't think that an onside kick has to hit the ground. And I don't see B having called for a fair catch or anything.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Okay here are a few more. To make it easy...quote this post and put your answers underneath. I'm actually enjoying doing this...hopefully you all are too. For the true and false ones, if the answer is false can you explain why?

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

Not sure if this is reading too much into the question, but wouldn't illegal motion be a pre-snap penalty, therefore the play does not occur?

Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

A's ball, 1st down, goal to go, at the 10 yard line-- 10 yard penalty from the spot of the file, replay the down.

Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

True...agree with albion, i don't think the ball needs to touch the ground, just travel before A can touch.