Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Yes, this is the same argument they were using before the Palin pick, and I think it is a fine position to take. My whole point - again - is not that experience matters, or that experience is good, or that experience is bad. My point is that I don't think the Republican position on attacking Obama on experience necessarily has to change because of the Palin pick. They can remain intellectually consistent with that argument. I'll leave it to the individual voters to decide if the argument is valid.

I'm not trying to make a case for the validity of experience, although reading my own posts does seem to go against it. I agree with your posts now, I was just pointing out how democratic politicians will spin it if, experience is brought back to the forefront.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I hate to bring this up, but I find the notion that McCain's pick is more important due to his age to be a bit off. There are enough nut jobs in the U.S. to make me just as concerned that Obama could fall to an assassin's bullet due to his race, leaving Biden as our president. The thought of Biden in charge is just as alarming to some people given his lack of verbal control at times.

I think it goes without saying that I'd never wish that kind of a tragedy on Obama or the country, but we all know that one of the main reasons Colin Powell is not running for president is his family's concerns that fate may befall him if he were to take office. It's definitely a consideration.

I would hope that U.S. has come far enough that the probability of Obama being shot is not nearly on the order of the probability of death for a 72-year old, 2-time cancer patient. If not, we've really got a problem around here.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by lungs

Here, I'll save some time for folks when it comes to analyzing the Republican speeches in the next few days:

McCain supporters:
"Wow! That was a great speech! Obama is done for!"

Obama supporters:
"Horrible speech! Obama has this thing locked down!"

And there you go...

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I'm not trying to make a case for the validity of experience, although reading my own posts does seem to go against it. I agree with your posts now, I was just pointing out how democratic politicians will spin it if, experience is brought back to the forefront.

I agree with your comments on the validity of experience. For me personally, experience isn't high on my list of Presidential requirements, and it won't provide much of a deciding factor in my vote. I think I'm back to looking at who will screw up the country less.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

well clearly you should just leave this thread if you have little to no respect for others, than. The crazy thing is I dont feel like Im asking much:

Allow the troopergate thing to be resolved before assuming she did right or wrong.

Allow the Biden's son thing the same.

Look at polling data for what it is.

Understand that Palin is for abstinence only education in schools to help prevent teenage pregnancy.

Dont tell lies, either side.




Now you tell me, what of the above is partisan?

Originally Posted by Flasch186

im glad you said it.

More things I want:

Keep the pregnant daughter out of the spotlight if they want it to be a private thing (bringing Levi to the stage doesnt help keep this private or a family affair but what do I know). If they want it to be a public thing than so be it, but I just disagree that that's the way to treat something as Private if that's what youve stated you want.

Forgive people for their past affiliations if they left that affiliation and the affiliation wasn't something awful like the Nazi party or KKK.

Keep 527's off the air.

Dont lie (a lot of statements from both sides can get hammered here and this is generally what gets me the most riled up even in this thread)

understand that Palin is not pro-choice in cases of rape and incest while Obama is Pro-choice.

If Palin went to Iraq and met with soldiers, thats a good thing. Its a good thing for anyone to go try to lift up the spirit of our soldiers.

Neither side is more patriotic than the other and neither side wants Al Qaeda to win.



Beyond that when we analyze the race and reactions of events I dont think that that's the place to be partisan....if someone gets a pop, like McCain did from the religious right when picking Palin than that's that and both sides should be able to admit that. If a skeleton comes out of a closet than so be it and we can talk about it and debate it but how that shit ends up being partisan Ill never know. If Palin was commander in chief of the Alaskan National Guard and was responsible for their strategic planning and deployment than great...it should be talked about. If she wasn't than great, that should be talked about. Sometimes I think some people are too busy spinning to be able to just handle an issue for what it is and somehow want to guide the sailboat with their hands.

sweet jesus flasch - you just encapsulated everything i have wanted to say like all thread long. are you like...in my brain?

[SFL Cat]

Just curious, if McCain had switched parties and had been running as a Democrat this time around, does anyone think he would be the nominee?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Just curious, if McCain had switched parties and had been running as a Democrat this time around, does anyone think he would be the nominee?

No way in hell.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Just curious, if McCain had switched parties and had been running as a Democrat this time around, does anyone think he would be the nominee?

LOL

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Just curious, if McCain had switched parties and had been running as a Democrat this time around, does anyone think he would be the nominee?

hmmm, not sure. I didnt think Hillary would blow it as poorly as she did to lose the nomination so I was definitely off there.

[SFL Cat]

He was certainly a media darling back when he was regularly bashing on Bush during the 2000 primaries. And I seem to recall rumors that he was so pissed at Bush after he won the nomination that he was thinking of switching party allegiance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

And I seem to recall rumors that he was so pissed at Bush after he won the nomination that he was thinking of switching party allegiance.

Considering his RINO'ism, that wouldn't have been much of a switch IMO. The only reason he has a chance to win in November as it stands now is, well, how things stand now. He's still got an (R) by his name and he isn't Obama.

The former (R) would have hurt him in the primary (takes time to get over those things) as would not being Obama apparently (see: Clinton, Hillary). He would have finished a poor third at best running as a Dem this time around.

[SFL Cat]

You're probably right. But I was thinking since the whole Dem strategy seems to be running against the Bush legacy, and McCain had already duked it out with the Dubya, and even today isn't a big fan of the pres, that might be a plus in his corner.

Plus, he does have the military record, and unlike Kerry, he never came back from Vietnam bad mouthing his fellow soldiers...plus, who in their right mind would try to Swift Boat a POW?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Considering his RINO'ism, that wouldn't have been much of a switch IMO. The only reason he has a chance to win in November as it stands now is, well, how things stand now. He's still got an (R) by his name and he isn't Obama.

The former (R) would have hurt him in the primary (takes time to get over those things) as would not being Obama apparently (see: Clinton, Hillary). He would have finished a poor third at best running as a Dem this time around.

Seems like a fair assessment. Ask yourself which sounds better to a Democrat...a Republican who is way to the left of his party, or a Democrat who is way to the right of his party? The first sounds like a potential ally while the second sounds like a potential problem.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

You're probably right. But I was thinking since the whole Dem strategy seems to be running against the Bush legacy, and McCain had already duked it out with the Dubya, and even today isn't a big fan of the pres, that might be a plus in his corner.

Plus, he does have the military record, and unlike Kerry, he never came back from Vietnam bad mouthing his fellow soldiers...plus, who in their right mind would try to Swift Boat a POW?

Uh, the same people that did it in 2000?

[Flasch186]

Well it seems even one of the Republican talking heads echoed my sentiment that they shouldnt have brought Levi out after saying it's a private matter....Who knows but Im glad to see my speculative opinion wasn't a sole one.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

... plus, who in their right mind would try to Swift Boat a POW?

You do whatever is necessary to win, don't kid yourself to think anything would be considered off limits (if it was needed/exploitable in some way).

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Well it seems even one of the Republican talking heads echoed my sentiment that they shouldnt have brought Levi out after saying it's a private matter....Who knows but Im glad to see my speculative opinion wasn't a sole one.

I would like to hope that everyone would agree with you here. This should be a private matter and it shouldn't be talked about. If they bring the father along to sit in silent support of his soon-to-be wife, I think that is fine. If they let him talk or campaign anywhere, they are asking for this to be made public.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by larry

Uh, the same people that did it in 2000?

Considering what Kerry did when he came back from 'Nam to bolster his political career, he got what he deserved, IMO, especially since he was now touting that experience during the campaign.

I think the public would have reacted differently if something similar had been tried against someone who had done hard time at a POW camp.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Considering what Kerry did when he came back from 'Nam to bolster his political career, he got what he deserved, IMO, especially since he was now touting that experience during the campaign.

but what about the retort about how W handled McCain in SC? I didnt see your retort in here to that matter.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

but what about the retort about how W handled McCain in SC? I didnt see your retort in here to that matter.

What? That McCain fathered a black baby? Crappy, dirty politics. But then, its similar to what's going on now with Palin. Any rumor or half-truth that can be dug up is being thrown out for public consumption.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

What? That McCain fathered a black baby? Crappy, dirty politics. But then, its similar to what's going on now with Palin. Any rumor or half-truth that can be dug up is being thrown out for public consumption.

ok, we agree then...crappy dirty politics. I hate it and have been consistent in calling the garbage, garbage. I think I slipped in a "Horsecrap" somewhere too.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I tend to agree with MBBF on this one for a couple of reasons.
1) Great oratory /= debate skills, as we saw in many of the Dem debates where Hillary's better grasp of national issues generally gave her the edge. Speaking from a prepared text is a lot different that responding to questions.

2) Expectations will be significantly different for each candidate. Because Obama is such a great speechmaker, the pre-debate talk will raise expectations to the point where, if he doesn't move the entire audience to laugh and cry and feel deeply moved, he will have failed. Since McCain, on the other hand, is known to be a very average speaker, when he shows a good grasp of policy and peppers his replies with official actions he has done that have some relevance to the question, he will probably be generally seen as having succeeded.

The Obama campaign has to do a better job than did the Gore and Kerry campaigns of managing the expectations going into the debates to ensure that the bar that is set by the media is one that their guy can comfortably clear.

Bush's folks were able to get the media to bury the bar 3 feet underground, so as long as their guy didn't stand at the podium and drool, the night was a huge success. Those guys were good.

I wonder if this is why Obama keeps turning down McCain's request for no moderator, town hall debates (as well as his very vague "plans" for change). However, this thread has become so partisan and personal, I think that real political debate has left the station quite a few pages ago.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I would hope that U.S. has come far enough that the probability of Obama being shot is not nearly on the order of the probability of death for a 72-year old, 2-time cancer patient. If not, we've really got a problem around here.

Perhaps not comparable in same probability, but most people are fully aware that there are still a lot of people who will prejudge or harm someone strictly based on race. Hell, the poll numbers I saw were that 11% of likely voters would not vote for Obama because of his race. That may be a shock to some people, but it's likely not a shock to most people.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Seems like a fair assessment. Ask yourself which sounds better to a Democrat...a Republican who is way to the left of his party, or a Democrat who is way to the right of his party? The first sounds like a potential ally while the second sounds like a potential problem.

Though, aside from a handful of positions, McCain ain't that left to the rest of his party. And aside from one position (national security), Liebermann isn't that right of his party either. It's more of a perception thing not based on the facts.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I wonder if this is why Obama keeps turning down McCain's request for no moderator, town hall debates (as well as his very vague "plans" for change). However, this thread has become so partisan and personal, I think that real political debate has left the station quite a few pages ago.

Don't they have 3 nationally televised debates? Plus, if you know your opponent is stronger in one area, why on earth would you play him on his home turf if you don't have to?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Don't they have 3 nationally televised debates? Plus, if you know your opponent is stronger in one area, why on earth would you play him on his home turf if you don't have to?

So, I guess Obama wasn't being honest when he said this in his speech:

And just as we keep our keep our promise to the next generation here at home, so must we keep America's promise abroad. If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, that's a debate I'm ready to have.

What Obama should have said is:

If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, provided the debate is moderated, pre-screened with teleprompters and not a town hall, that's a debate I'm ready to have.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I would hope that U.S. has come far enough that the probability of Obama being shot is not nearly on the order of the probability of death for a 72-year old, 2-time cancer patient. If not, we've really got a problem around here.

Skin Cancer. That's like the Washington Generals of Cancer.

[Flasch186]

that's so disingenuous again. He was honest, he said debate and a debate they'll have times 3.

Now if you want to drop the word "honest" from the above you can make your statement and be genuine. Can't you see that it's those little spins that bely your ability to analyze and debate evenly and level headed? Just stop pulling that crap and you'll have more credibility or maybe I hold the word "honesty" too high of, in esteem.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by molson

Skin Cancer. That's like the Washington Generals of Cancer.

ugh, I couldnt disagree more. Skin Cancer kills with the best of them and is nothing to make light of and Im bringing it up as something on McCain alone but it is not something to make light of.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Arles

So, I guess Obama wasn't being honest when he said this in his speech:



What Obama should have said is:

Hey that's actually pretty funny.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Arles

So, I guess Obama wasn't being honest when he said this in his speech:



What Obama should have said is:

Plus why would Obama want to give McCain any EXTRA and FREE press. I sure as hell wouldn't.

I'd say, " Get your ass out there and raise your own campaign funds to get your name out there, Senator."

[albionmoonlight]

Personally, I would have loved a mix of town halls (McCain's strength) with Lincoln/Douglas style debates (Obama's strength).

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Do you really not think that the Reps could have made a bigger play on the experience issue if they had selected Romney.

Do you mean for President? I do wonder why the Republicans didn't nominate Romney, Giuliani, or Huckabee for President since executive experience is so important.

[Flasch186]

...or a duel.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Hell, the poll numbers I saw were that 11% of likely voters would not vote for Obama because of his race.

I assume that's the number that admitted it was an issue. If so, doubling the number would not be out of line IMO.

Then again, you can't use that to guesstimate votes much (and I'm pretty sure you weren't, just saying...) since you could wave a magic wand over Obama & turn him into Woody Harrelson and many of those aren't going to vote for him over various positions on issues anyway.

[Flasch186]

although he'd then want to legalize marijuana usage.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

...or a duel.

You read my mind....Now I'd love to watch the 72-year old, POW, ex-Navy officer and all around MAVERICK.....

vs.

The 47 year old black Hawaiian, ex-basketball guy with no government experience that no one, not from Illinois, ever heard........

slice and dice, baby. I'd put my money on Obama for Change...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

although he'd then want to legalize marijuana usage.

Isn't that in the Obama platform somewhere?

[Flasch186]

boy would that change the dynamics.

[JPhillips]

Uhhh, there is a town hall.

The first debate, on foreign policy and national security, will be held Sept. 26 at the University of Mississippi and moderated by Jim Lehrer, host of “The NewsHour” on PBS.

The second one will be a town hall debate moderated by NBC’s Tom Brokaw on Oct. 7 at Belmont University in Nashville. All the questions will come from the audience or the Internet.

The third debate, on domestic and economic policy, will be held Oct. 15 at Hofstra University in New York. CBS’ Bob Schieffer will moderate that one.

[Young Drachma]

They're toting him out like he's part of the family now. I guess he is..but...man, talk about getting "more than you bargained for."

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

They're toting him out like he's part of the family now. I guess he is..but...man, talk about getting "more than you bargained for."

I don't know how else they would use him. I feel bad for him. He gets involved with a girl, and is now in the national spotlight of a huge presidential election. Is this Cindy McCain on the right?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I don't know how else they would use him. I feel bad for him. He gets involved with a girl, and is now in the national spotlight of a huge presidential election. Is this Cindy McCain on the right?

Yes, that's Cindy.

And yes, I feel bad for him too. That was my point. He dates a girl who happens to be the governor's daughter and now he's thrust into the national spotlight in this interesting way.

I do agree with pundits who say this is a "real" family, but heaven help us if we think that if the roles were reversed this wouldn't absolutely torpedo the campaign of Mr. Obama. (Hypothetically...i realize his lil' girls are very little)

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Don't they have 3 nationally televised debates? Plus, if you know your opponent is stronger in one area, why on earth would you play him on his home turf if you don't have to?

Big difference between moderated debates in which you can prepare for, that has limited in time and usually lack in details; in comparison to an open debate posed by average, American voters who can ask you for anything and force the candidates to think quickly.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I'll leave the caption to someone wittier than I.

Hehehe...you sure know how to pick 'em eh? Good work son. You've got good aim and I'd be honored to have you as my wingman.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

in comparison to an open debate posed by average, American voters who can ask you for anything and force the candidates to think quickly.

Umm ... the "average American voter" wouldn't be interested enough to show up for a Town Hall.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I do agree with pundits who say this is a "real" family, but heaven help us if we think that if the roles were reversed this wouldn't absolutely torpedo the campaign of Mr. Obama. (Hypothetically...i realize his lil' girls are very little)

Do you think that is true? Considering Obama is pro-choice, if the family decided to have the child and watch the kids get married, he'd be able to play up to the pro-choice crowd and the pro-life crowd. He'd also be showing family values (after taking the initial family values hit) in a party that doesn't make family values as big a selling point.

Now if he/his family chose the abortion route, that might be rough.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Yes, that's Cindy.

Geez, she looks like Joan Rivers in that picture.

Meanwhile, in the close up of McCain & the boy, to me it looks for all the world like someone is trying to pin a baby toy to his butt.

Yeah, I finally figured out that the white is the other baby's socks & the toy is in hand of the person holding the baby. I thought someone had photoshopped it there for a minute (and chuckled at the notion to be honest).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... the "average American voter" wouldn't be interested enough to show up for a Town Hall.

Agreed. The questions are often even more partisan in the Town Hall debates than the usual debates. I hope they limit the silly internet stuff this year. Some of that stuff from 4 years ago was pretty brutal.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... the "average American voter" wouldn't be interested enough to show up for a Town Hall.

I was going to say that the "average American voter" is far too ignorant and stupid to ask good questions, but yeah, that'd be if they showed up, which they wouldn't.