Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Arles]

Larry King is still on the air? I thought he was given a mercy removal 5-10 years ago.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I don't this inexperienced thing with Sarah and if McCain happens to unable to lead. How is Obama better when it comes to experience? Is it because Obama is "well-known"? How does that make him better to lead? I'm not taking sides, just asking a general question.

My personal take on it is that he's been the head of a campaign that went mano y mano against the Clinton political machine and was able to come out on top. It wasn't blind luck that happened. Plus he has demonstrated an effective leadership style during the post-convention campaign. He seems to put thoughts behind his decisions, and isn't afraid to explain how he arrived at a decision.

I haven't seen anything like that from the Palin camp.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by cartman

My personal take on it is that he's been the head of a campaign that went mano y mano against the Clinton political machine and was able to come out on top. It wasn't blind luck that happened. Plus he has demonstrated an effective leadership style during the post-convention campaign. He seems to put thoughts behind his decisions, and isn't afraid to explain how he arrived at a decision.

I haven't seen anything like that from the Palin camp.

Thanks.

[Tigercat]

Add to that, for decades Obama has been involved in politics affecting thousands of people. Community organizer in large cities could easily be seen as more relevant to national politics than small-town Alaskan mayor..

Fair or not, many also see Governor of Alaska as a job far less relevant to the rest of the nations politics than other governorships. (And to Congress...)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

that's absurd. there shouldn't be anyone not paying federal income tax (who makes above minimum wage)

From 2005: The Tax Foundation - Number of Americans Outside the Income Tax System Continues to Grow

When all of the dependents of these income-producing people are counted, roughly 120 million Americans – 40 percent of the U.S. population – are outside of the federal income tax system.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

From 2005: The Tax Foundation - Number of Americans Outside the Income Tax System Continues to Grow

The 40% number is kind of silly since it counts kids (who obviously aren't earning income and aren't paying taxes). By the Tax Foundation's estimate, 15 million households don't have tax liability (and the Tax Foundation is not exactly a neutral source on this). The unemployed obviously don't pay taxes, but are counted in the number. The number also doesn't include other taxes (FICA, sales tax, etc.). When you look at the IRS's numbers, over 90% of the non-paying households earn less than 20,000 a year. I think it is reasonable that those people don't pay federal income taxes, but maybe I'm just crazy that way.

[NoMyths]

For those who missed it: the 30-minute spot, minus the live feed at the end of the original.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by John Galt

The 40% number is kind of silly since it counts kids (who obviously aren't earning income and aren't paying taxes). By the Tax Foundation's estimate, 15 million households don't have tax liability (and the Tax Foundation is not exactly a neutral source on this). The unemployed obviously don't pay taxes, but are counted in the number. The number also doesn't include other taxes (FICA, sales tax, etc.). When you look at the IRS's numbers, over 90% of the non-paying households earn less than 20,000 a year. I think it is reasonable that those people don't pay federal income taxes, but maybe I'm just crazy that way.

when you put it that way i don't really have any problems with it JG

[albionmoonlight]

A John Galt sighting!

[DaddyTorgo]

wow scary palin in this clip i just saw on cnn (i'm paraphrasing):

"we need more energy from here in America. And we can do that, because God in his wisdom has seen fit to give us that energy."

uhhhh...keep your god-shit out of the political arena whackjob. god had nothing to do with it.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

uhhhh...keep your god-shit out of the political arena whackjob. god had nothing to do with it.

Past Presidents and political figures from Washington to Lincoln would take great offense at your rant.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by John Galt

The 40% number is kind of silly since it counts kids (who obviously aren't earning income and aren't paying taxes). By the Tax Foundation's estimate, 15 million households don't have tax liability (and the Tax Foundation is not exactly a neutral source on this). The unemployed obviously don't pay taxes, but are counted in the number. The number also doesn't include other taxes (FICA, sales tax, etc.). When you look at the IRS's numbers, over 90% of the non-paying households earn less than 20,000 a year. I think it is reasonable that those people don't pay federal income taxes, but maybe I'm just crazy that way.

It was the first thing google gave me when I asked how many americans payed income tax, I was just trying to help DT out. I am not interested, nor have I ever been, in a flat or regressive tax system.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I thought that 40% was the amount of people that didn't pay federal income tax but there were still payroll taxes, state taxes, etc.

We often hear that sort of statement here (Australia) and what they mean is that many people pay taxes out of their income but also receive payments from government in various forms (rebate on child care sort of thing, health insurance etc) and the net result is that 40% (or whatever) receive more or equal to what they pay in taxes and therefore have a net tax rate of zero or less.

So, taxes are paid but cancelled out by various rebates.

Most other countries, certainly Britain and Australia, have reformed the tax system so that a "consumption tax" (value added tax in Britain, a goods and services tax in Australia) have taken over much of the tax burden from income tax. Such a tax avoids the arguments over "income redistribution", everybody (including the unemployed and pensioners) pay tax when they "consume" and the rich's efforts to avoid tax with their various schemes are countered.

At first this seems to load the tax burden on the lower end of society because it's a flat rate tax but because the rich's schemes are to some extent foiled the figures have seemingly worked out that the bottom end doesn't in fact take on any greater share of the burden. There is still a graduated income tax but it's no longer as onerous as it was.

It also has the advantage of being a far less painful way of paying tax (without affecting the amount paid). As a self-employed worker I know the pain of having to write out a cheque for several thousand dollars whereas paying an extra 3 dollars on a restaurant bill, an extra ten on a food bill, a couple of extra for a haircut doesn't hurt nearly as much. In fact it quickly blends in into the accepted cost of living.

Even in the recent US debates I have seen it suggested the US should follow suit, remove state sales taxes and cut federal income taxes and replace with a federal consumption tax.

[JPhillips]

Any state with a sales tax will not agree to turning it over to the Feds.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Past Presidents and political figures from Washington to Lincoln would take great offense at your rant.

see - i have no problem with invoking it in places where it makes more sense "god bless you all and god bless america" is fine. "god put the oil here so that america would be great" is just intellectually vapid

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Any state with a sales tax will not agree to turning it over to the Feds.

The states here were convinced because the federal system hands over from the consumption tax an amount equal to the loss in sales tax. It took a lot of negotiations but it happened in the end.

[st.cronin]

I don't think there is much pressure to change the US tax code in any dramatic way.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

For those who missed it: the 30-minute spot, minus the live feed at the end of the original.

And, for those who missed his unscripted views on redistribution of wealth and the courts:

[panerd]

The You Tube clip has some damning audio evidence of Barrack Obama saying some really radical things and they choose to end it with a 10-second clip of Joe the Plumber? Are you fucking kidding me?

[NoMyths]

You're drinking the wrong Kool-Aid, Vic. Obama's doesn't have poison in it.

I'm enjoying feeling positive about a candidate for the first time in my voting history. I can likewise sympathize with those voters who feel mostly as if they are opposing a candidate, rather than supporting their own, from my own experience in the last two elections.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

And, for those who missed his unscripted views on redistribution of wealth and the courts:

The video says not available to me. Assuming it is the same video that has been making the rounds about Obama's statements about the courts and redistribution, I'm completely baffled why he said anything radical. A variety of blogs seem to be reading in between the lines. Even with the odd editing, Obama is simply restating a common argument that courts were a trap for civil rights groups (see The Hollow Hope). And he stated that civil rights groups failed in many ways. Nowhere did he advocate a normative argument for redistribution through the courts. Drudge started this strange interpretation, but I just don't get it.

If you actually posted a different video, then ignore my comments.

[larrymcg421]

That lovely little part at the end was just random audio from someone else. It is not Kay Hagan. In fact, it would be very surprising if it was Kay Hagan, considering she is deeply religious and even used to be a Sunday School teacher.

This is disgusting and sickening, and Dole is amazingly standing by it. (Even Chambliss eventually backed away from his Cleland ad.) Stuff like this absolutely infuriates me. I'm giving the max I can afford to Kay Hagan.

[Big Fo]

Anyone happen to know why both Wyoming and Mississippi are voting on both their Senators in the same year?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That lovely little part at the end was just random audio from someone else. It is not Kay Hagan. In fact, it would be very surprising if it was Kay Hagan, considering she is deeply religious and even used to be a Sunday School teacher.

This is disgusting and sickening, and Dole is amazingly standing by it. (Even Chambliss eventually backed away from his Cleland ad.) Stuff like this absolutely infuriates me. I'm giving the max I can afford to Kay Hagan.

yeah, I brought this ad up a page or two ago. Absolutely sickening.

[GrantDawg]

Missed the Obama variety hour/half hour last night, so I watched it this morning. That was very well done. I didn't know what to expect, but it was good.

[Raiders Army]

I watched the first 15 minutes or so and thought it was well done as well. Very Hollywood-ish (and I'm not saying that in a bad way). I liked the fact that what I saw of it, he didn't attack McCain...he laid out his plans and built himself up.

That being said, I didn't feel sorry at all for the people whom they showed going through hard times.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That lovely little part at the end was just random audio from someone else. It is not Kay Hagan. In fact, it would be very surprising if it was Kay Hagan, considering she is deeply religious and even used to be a Sunday School teacher.

This is disgusting and sickening, and Dole is amazingly standing by it. (Even Chambliss eventually backed away from his Cleland ad.) Stuff like this absolutely infuriates me. I'm giving the max I can afford to Kay Hagan.

A fascinating video. It raises the question (though perhaps for another thread considering its scope) as to whether it would in any way be possible for an atheist/agnostic to be elected president/senator/congressman - or, indeed, anyone but a mainstream christian.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Anyone happen to know why both Wyoming and Mississippi are voting on both their Senators in the same year?

They each had one seat up for re-election and then lost the other senators (who were replaced by appointment in Wyoming and special election in Miss.).

Sen. Thomas of Wyoming passed away and Sen. Lott of Mississippi resigned.

[Neon_Chaos]

It's interesting that most foreigners (like me? ) consider Obama to be the better candidate of the two, despite Obama's plan to reduce outsourcing jobs to third world counties (like my job? ).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Man, what is it with Florida and elections?

How do you not know who you voted for? Hopefully that was just those people's way of saying "mind your own business."

Two points you failed to mention regarding those polling numbers in Florida and Ohio.....

1. McCain is leading in those Florida numbers despite the majority of those votes coming from Democratic voters.

2. The early vote in Ohio was largely driven by ACORN. It shouldn't be shocking at all that it is leaning Democrat at this point. Also, anyone who compares early voting this year to early voting in years past is making a mistake. The requirements in many states to vote early have changed quite a bit from past years. The demographic of those votes is likely to be significantly different.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

It's interesting that most foreigners (like me? ) consider Obama to be the better candidate of the two, despite Obama's plan to reduce outsourcing jobs to third world counties (like my job? ).

Interesting? I'd say that's more like predictable (in a broad global sense, not you specifically).

I mean, hell, I'd like to see Colonel Klink in charge of Al-Qaida. Seems only natural that you don't want anyone competent in charge of the opposition or even a competitor.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The Obama campaign has got to be hoping that the LA Times holds its ground and does not release the Obama tape. From someone who has seen the tape, there's an election-altering comment from Obama on that tape. It makes complete sense why the LA Times won't provide a transcript now given this information. Obviously, he wasn't thinking that he'd ever be running for president when he made these comments...........

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...t-release.html

Saw a clip from the tape. Reason we can't release it is because statements Obama said to rile audience up during toast. He congratulates Khalidi for his work saying "Israel has no God-given right to occupy Palestine" plus there's been "genocide against the Palestinian people by Israelis."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

there's an election-altering comment from Obama on that tape.

You really think so? I'd say he could rape a goat with a pitchfork at this point & still win. It's not as though there's a shortage of fools in this country who agree with his general sentiment in that quote.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting article from Time. They discuss the lengths that the Obama campaign has to in regards to restraining Biden's gaffes.....

Hidin' Biden: Reining In a Voluble No. 2 - TIME

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You really think so? I'd say he could rape a goat with a pitchfork at this point & still win. It's not as though there's a shortage of fools in this country who agree with his general sentiment in that quote.

After attending several Jewish parties/functions while on the East Coast, I can tell you with great certainty that hell hath no fury like a Jewish woman scorned.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Interesting? I'd say that's more like predictable (in a broad global sense, not you specifically).

I mean, hell, I'd like to see Colonel Klink in charge of Al-Qaida. Seems only natural that you don't want anyone competent in charge of the opposition or even a competitor.

Wow. That is just the "us against them" mindset that Bush has been cultivating since the invasion of Iraq that has alienated the citizens of countries that are staunch allies of the US.

I really am glad that Obama seems to have this election wrapped up.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I really am glad that Obama seems to have this election wrapped up.

We need more comments like this in this thread.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I really am glad that Obama seems to have this election wrapped up.

Like I said, nothing surprising about that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

We need more comments like this in this thread.

Would you also like us to add some other earthshaking revelations such as "the sky is blue" and "water is wet"?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The Obama campaign has got to be hoping that the LA Times holds its ground and does not release the Obama tape. From someone who has seen the tape, there's an election-altering comment from Obama on that tape. It makes complete sense why the LA Times won't provide a transcript now given this information. Obviously, he wasn't thinking that he'd ever be running for president when he made these comments...........

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...t-release.html

from that site:

Why believe the tip

? While I receive a lot of tips and links, I seldom publish them. This particular email address has provided accurate and unique information in the past, as I noted above. No one else reported the information and I found it to be accurate in the past. As I said, take it for what it's worth.

Sorry, but you're going to have to show me more than one anonymous source off of a blog to convince me that those are actual quotes.

TBH I think the real reason probably lies somewhere in-between. It wouldn't surprise me if he said something like that - because you know what - Israel has no god-given right to that land (although the genocide quote is a bit over the top). He also however reportedly (reportedly by CNN now mind you) said that Israel + the Palestinians need to find common ground and work out their differences. Is that really such a horrible thing?

Oh, and the Khaledi guy was NEVER a PLO spokesman. He has come out and said that himself - as a scholar he was interviewed about them, and spoke ABOUT them, but never FOR them.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Sorry, but you're going to have to show me more than one anonymous source off of a blog to convince me that those are actual quotes.

TBH I think the real reason probably lies somewhere in-between. It wouldn't surprise me if he said something like that - because you know what - Israel has no god-given right to that land (although the genocide quote is a bit over the top). He also however reportedly (reportedly by CNN now mind you) said that Israel + the Palestinians need to find common ground and work out their differences. Is that really such a horrible thing?

Oh, and the Khaledi guy was NEVER a PLO spokesman. He has come out and said that himself - as a scholar he was interviewed about them, and spoke ABOUT them, but never FOR them.

Absolutely. I put the link up for that reason. With that said, if there's anything even close to that on the tape, we'll find out about it eventually. I posted it for what it was, which is a rumor at this point.

He can say all he wants to CNN, but if these quotes are attributed to him, it's a major problem. You just don't say things like this when running for office.

[Flasch186]

we dont know what he said or didnt say, etc. We can do this all day, perhaps you shouldve made your text in red.

[Butter]

Well, that's it. McCain's sewed up Florida!

Now for those other 8 swing states he needs....

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Interesting? I'd say that's more like predictable (in a broad global sense, not you specifically).

I mean, hell, I'd like to see Colonel Klink in charge of Al-Qaida. Seems only natural that you don't want anyone competent in charge of the opposition or even a competitor.

How is the US Government opposition or a competitor to other countries? We're not talking about sports here.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

We need more comments like this in this thread.

You're the one who's too much of a pansy to put your money or pride where your posts are.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

How is the US Government opposition or a competitor to other countries?

If I need to explain that one to you, we probably aren't going to be finished by election day.

We're not talking about sports here.

Nope. We're talking about matters far more important.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The Obama campaign has got to be hoping that the LA Times holds its ground and does not release the Obama tape. From someone who has seen the tape, there's an election-altering comment from Obama on that tape. It makes complete sense why the LA Times won't provide a transcript now given this information. Obviously, he wasn't thinking that he'd ever be running for president when he made these comments...........

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...t-release.html

If the video of Obama saying "Kill Whitey" didn't sway the electorate I doubt this will.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

You just don't say things like this when running for office.

You do if you believe them ... AND if you can get away with them. Like I said, as much as it sickens me, I don't believe this would affect the outcome one bit.

[DaddyTorgo]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Fact check: Is Columbia professor Khalidi a ‘political ally’ of Barack Obama? « - Blogs from CNN.com

Here's a fact-check on this Khaledi-thing.

[albionmoonlight]

If there is an honest to goodness videotape of Obama saying that Israelis have committed genocide against Palestinian people and that videotape has not gotten out to the media by hook or crook, then the Clinton and McCain campaigns are guilty of gross political malpractice. Hell, that tape would have even made the Alan Keyes senate race competitive.

It is much more likely that someone heard about a secret video tape and, upon realizing that it would not be released, decided to make up some over the top quotes and hope that people ran with the rumor. Maybe even make it a red alert.

And the idea that Obama made these quotes before he thought he would run for President is delightfully naive. Does anyone really beleive that he has not had national political ambitions until the last couple of years? Apparently, he was talking about running for president in kindergarten. Even if Obama hates Israel, he had to know not to say anything about it on the record.