Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

How exactly would that work?

The government already is doing this here and there with the existing and disparate Medicare/Medicade/SCHIP/TRICARE programs. My hope is that those get scrapped and a single entity emerges. There is little to no coordination between these programs today. There is a lot of overlap and waste (imagine that) in these programs. A streamlining would do wonders.

I'd imagine that it would work much like the relationship people have with their insurance agencies today if universal health care becomes a reality. Instead of calling a BCBS employee about coverage, you'll be calling a US government employee. Medical practitioners would have a new place to send their claims.

At least that is what I observed in my exposures to UHC in Italy and the UK.

[Buccaneer]

GrantDawg, I can see that. I also believe he will be on a short leash (or should be, depending how many people pay attention instead of being sheep), like in regards to Israel. There is a perception like we never had before - not with Carter, Reagan, Bushes or Clinton - but people are willing to believe what he said (esp. some of the bigger Jewish groups that are advocating his election). If he steps away from his "hard-line support" statements regarding Israel, esp. if he brings in some of the Carter protegees or Albright's), then some will turn against him sooner versus later.

People will be willing to accept more socialistic legislation (I'm a libertarian, so I'm allowed to use that word ) because, frankly, that's not much different that what have seen over the past 8-16 years (particularly recently with the govt give-aways-damn-the-deficits legislations). I have no allusions that it will be better, just different and that might be ok, generally.

One of the things I'll be curious about is the commander-in-chief role. I distinctly recall Clinton's loathing of the military and the intelligence community. We knew that going in and it showed up during his presidency in many ways (from cutbacks to using them as an ego-boosting tool to devastating many intelligence roles in the diplomatic community). I don't get that sense of loathing from Obama. But I also don't get a sense of confidence either, esp. knowing that he will have some close anti-militarists advisors. I would like to see something other than the extended, over-use that we've seen recently but not over-compensating to the other extreme. Who knows, he may get lucky on the natural events of change in geopolitics. Iran could lose its leader and a different one could bring changes. That's what history has shown us - constant changes in geopolitical affairs, predicted and unpredicted.

[Fidatelo]

I don't know the minds of many really, really, really, ridiculously rich entrepreneurs, but this one doesn't seem to feel any of the proposed tax plans will stifle the drive of the great American entrepreneurial spirit:

Entrepreneurs who create something out of nothing don’t care what tax rates are. Bill Gates didn’t monitor the marginal tax rate when he dropped out of Harvard and started MicroSoft (btw, it was a ton higher than it is today). Michael Dell didn’t wonder what the capital gains tax was when he started PC’s Limited, and then grew it into Dell Computer. I doubt that any great business or invention started with a discussion or even a consideration of what the current or projected income or capital gains tax was or would be.

The impact of tax rates on productivity and development is something economists masterbate about, enterpreneurs don’t waste their time thinking about it. We have business to do.

Entrepreneurs live to be entrepreneurs. I have never had a discussion with anyone about starting a business that included tax rates. Ever. If anyone that wanted an investment from me made a point of discussing tax rates as an impact on their business, I wouldnt invest in them. Ever.

http://blogmaverick.com/2008/10/23/t...omic-problems/

But what does he know, maybe he just isn't rich enough yet to have bothered researching a better place to roll around in money.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

GrantDawg, I can see that. I also believe he will be on a short leash (or should be, depending how many people pay attention instead of being sheep), like in regards to Israel. There is a perception like we never had before - not with Carter, Reagan, Bushes or Clinton - but people are willing to believe what he said (esp. some of the bigger Jewish groups that are advocating his election). If he steps away from his "hard-line support" statements regarding Israel, esp. if he brings in some of the Carter protegees or Albright's), then some will turn against him sooner versus later.

People will be willing to accept more socialistic legislation (I'm a libertarian, so I'm allowed to use that word ) because, frankly, that's not much different that what have seen over the past 8-16 years (particularly recently with the govt give-aways-damn-the-deficits legislations). I have no allusions that it will be better, just different and that might be ok, generally.

One of the things I'll be curious about is the commander-in-chief role. I distinctly recall Clinton's loathing of the military and the intelligence community. We knew that going in and it showed up during his presidency in many ways (from cutbacks to using them as an ego-boosting tool to devastating many intelligence roles in the diplomatic community). I don't get that sense of loathing from Obama. But I also don't get a sense of confidence either, esp. knowing that he will have some close anti-militarists advisors. I would like to see something other than the extended, over-use that we've seen recently but not over-compensating to the other extreme. Who knows, he may get lucky on the natural events of change in geopolitics. Iran could lose its leader and a different one could bring changes. That's what history has shown us - constant changes in geopolitical affairs, predicted and unpredicted.

ugh...fuck israel. i'm so fucking sick of hearing about it. since when did our foreign policy with regard to one bumpkiss-tiny lil country become a litmus-test for all politicians? Why should Israel have a special place, a guarentee that we will be supporting them no matter what, even if it's no longer in our interest from a realpolitik-standpoint??

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

But what does he know, maybe he just isn't rich enough yet to have bothered researching a better place to roll around in money.

Or maybe he just knows he's got his sheltered well enough to avoid the worst of the blow. Or maybe he's just a f'n idiot after all.

[DaddyTorgo]

dola - that wasn't a slam on you either Bucc - I know you're just stating an opinion - i'm just sick of Israel having some like...sacred-place in our foreign policy decisions

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

ugh...fuck israel. i'm so fucking sick of hearing about it. since when did our foreign policy with regard to one bumpkiss-tiny lil country become a litmus-test for all politicians? Why should Israel have a special place, a guarentee that we will be supporting them no matter what, even if it's no longer in our interest from a realpolitik-standpoint??

Welp, we disagree here DT

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm so pissed off with the sacred-cow that is israel and the pro-israel lobby that i actually wouldn't mind if the Arabs took it over and booted all the Jewish-folk out.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's cool Flasch.

And just let me state - I'm not anti-Jewish or anything. And I understand the connection that Jewish folk here in America have with Israel. I'm just sick of it being a litmus-test for politicians and having a sacred-status within our foreign policy decision-making such that it has ramifications far beyond US-Israel relations (it's a massive reason the Arab nations dislike us obviously). Relations with Israel ought to be no different than relations with any other country, that's all I'm saying.

edit: just wanted to make this clear, because i can see how some of my other posts could easily make me look bad.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Why should Israel have a special place, a guarentee that we will be supporting them no matter what, even if it's no longer in our interest from a realpolitik-standpoint??

Rant all you like, but if you don't can't see that they're one of the few nations worth the name in the region and one of even fewer worthy of our support then you're already past the point of redemption anyway & trying to explain it to you would be wasted anyway.

You want to talk about realpolitik? Then why not start with the reality that the US/any non-Muslim nation will never be allowed to peacefully co-exist with the Muslim dominated nation-states? The Israeli's seem to have figured that out a lot better than most.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or maybe he just knows he's got his sheltered well enough to avoid the worst of the blow. Or maybe he's just a f'n idiot after all.

Or maybe he's in league with the Muslims too???

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Rant all you like, but if you don't can't see that they're one of the few nations worth the name in the region and one of even fewer worthy of our support then you're already past the point of redemption anyway & trying to explain it to you would be wasted anyway.

You want to talk about realpolitik? Then why not start with the reality that the US/any non-Muslim nation will never be allowed to peacefully co-exist with the Muslim dominated nation-states? The Israeli's seem to have figured that out a lot better than most.

Oh I agree with you there Jon. I'm a firm-believer in Huntington-style "Clash of Civilizations" / bloody-borders and all that.

I just don't think that our support ought to be blank-check and tie our hands with regards to other options. Or if that's truly what we believe, we ought to go in there and clear shit out along with Israel, take the whole fucking region over.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Rant all you like, but if you don't can't see that they're one of the few nations worth the name in the region and one of even fewer worthy of our support then you're already past the point of redemption anyway & trying to explain it to you would be wasted anyway.

Yep. Leaving aside its religious or strategic importance, Israel is the good guys. The world needs more countries like Israel, not fewer.

If you want to get all outraged about our choice of allies, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia would be much better choices.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

that's cool Flasch.

And just let me state - I'm not anti-Jewish or anything. And I understand the connection that Jewish folk here in America have with Israel. I'm just sick of it being a litmus-test for politicians and having a sacred-status within our foreign policy decision-making such that it has ramifications far beyond US-Israel relations (it's a massive reason the Arab nations dislike us obviously). Relations with Israel ought to be no different than relations with any other country, that's all I'm saying.

edit: just wanted to make this clear, because i can see how some of my other posts could easily make me look bad.

pretty tough to delineate the two. Im Jewish and I believe the Palestinians should have their own state, side by side, with Israel but your statements dont stop the pendulum halfway and you carry over to the side of, well, it's pretty ugly over there. It's not a litmus test for our Pres. in my view but I so believe that they are a very strategic ally for us in a great location for us.

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah - i may have let my frustration get the better of me for a bit there.

I wouldn't HONESTLY want to see Israel gone - but I also don't think we should necessarily back them to-the-hilt without giving it a second thought. Just gets my dander up frankly.

Apologies if it came off as freaky.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The downfall of nations is something that occurs throughout history, even I'm not arrogant enough to believe the US is somehow entirely immune to that. I'm not going to lie, I hoped I wouldn't live to see it but I'm also not going to ignore the possibility either. And in this case, not only the possibility but what I'm convinced is the virtual certainty of it.

It's not just the downfall of the United States. The human race could be in the autumn of its years. Regardless of one's religious persuasion or lack of religious persuasion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, etc.), there are a confluence of global events that suggest the end of our existence could be drawing near. December 21, 2012 doesn't sound so far-fetched to me anymore.

[Radii]

Dead People Voting Throughout Florida - News Story - WFTV Orlando

We're going to be seeing stories like these all over the place from every battleground state in the next week, aren't we?

[digamma]

Wow. End of days shit. This thread has it all.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't have a problem with the honeymoon stage of any Presidency. People will celebrate the end of the Bush-era. People will celebrate the first black President. His initial popularity rating will be in the 60's or 70's I'd imagine. Will it sustaine for 4 years? I doubt it, but I think Obama will be an 8-year President.

Interesting. The general consensus seems to be that a 2 term presidency for either Obama or McCain would be very difficult to pull off. Why do you predict that Obama will be a 2 term president?

[larrymcg421]

Actually I think whoever gets in will be in perfect position to be a two termer. The situation cannot possibly be worse in 4 years than it is now. The incumbent is almost certainly going to be able to claim progress.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually I think whoever gets in will be in perfect position to be a two termer. The situation cannot possibly be worse in 4 years than it is now. The incumbent is almost certainly going to be able to claim progress.

The question I have is the people that are who high on Obama, what exactly are you expecting? Is he going to have to be extremely careful so he doesn't lose those undecided voters (the moderates/independents) going into the 2010 (making decisions that could impact the congressional races) and 2012 elections? What exactly are the rabid Obama supporters expecting? I mean, once he's elected, the "he's not Bush" thing is out the window. It seems like Obama has a much higher bar to clear than McCain would. Am I wrong on this?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Yep. Leaving aside its religious or strategic importance, Israel is the good guys. The world needs more countries like Israel, not fewer.

Wow, tell that to the Palestinians.

I sympathise with Israel on a number of issues, but they have a ton of blood on their hands, just like everybody else - especially in that region.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually I think whoever gets in will be in perfect position to be a two termer. The situation cannot possibly be worse in 4 years than it is now. The incumbent is almost certainly going to be able to claim progress.

That's not unreasonable. The US economy was not exactly out of the woods in the back half of Reagan's 1st term, but it had improved markedly from previous years. Enough to get Reagan elected in a landslide...

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The question I have is the people that are who high on Obama, what exactly are you expecting? Is he going to have to be extremely careful so he doesn't lose those undecided voters (the moderates/independents) going into the 2010 (making decisions that could impact the congressional races) and 2012 elections? What exactly are the rabid Obama supporters expecting? I mean, once he's elected, the "he's not Bush" thing is out the window. It seems like Obama has a much higher bar to clear than McCain would. Am I wrong on this?

The rabid Obama supporters are very likely Obama '12 supporters no matter what happens anyway. I do believe there will be a subset of voters who have been taken in by the fact that he is a charismatic speaker who will end up being virtually impossible to please, and the republican nominee in 2012 will have a very easy time pointing that out. Its possible that subset of voters ends up being very large. It is purely anecdotal of course but I know normally skeptical, logical people who seem to have elevated Obama to godlike, untouchable status at this point, and the potential for backlash does seem high once it is realized that he's just another politician, either to become jaded and simply not vote in 2012, or for some of the more moderates who are just pissed off about the last 8 years to turn to the right.

[Deattribution]

I think that McCain doesn't go two terms regardless, and Obama could but it will depend on whether things get much worse before they get better. If in 4 years, we're still another 3 or 4 years away from a real turn around then I could see someone else having a chance (although I have no idea who). The downfall talk is crazy, either candidate will have an uphill battle but both have nowhere to go but up eventually if they're given the time. Bush has done a ton of the dirty work to make it easy for someone to sweep in and take credit for an eventual turn around.

[larrymcg421]

Hagan's response to Dole's "Godless" ad:

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by digamma

Wow. End of days shit. This thread has it all.

These people take losing an election HARD. I hated seeing Bush elected (and hated seeing him re-elected even more), but I didn't think it would CAUSE THE WORLD TO END!!1! Talk about scaremongerers! Is that comet coming back to take people away before the Rapture?

[Flasch186]

Wow, nice ad by Hagan there btu I dont know if carries the same 'shock' wight as the Dole ad did.

[Butter]

Always nice to kick off your day reading about how the next Presidential election is one in a series of events signifying the apocalypse.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Hagan's response to Dole's "Godless" ad:

To me it's just like the John McCain "Obama is not an Arab, he's a good man" incident. Why does she have to go on the air and say she is a Christian who taught Sunday school? Why not ask what the godless shit has to do with being a good representative? I guess we aren't as far as a people as we think we are.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Always nice to kick off your day reading about how the next Presidential election is one in a series of events signifying the apocalypse.

Maybe they are on to something...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...167675aa4.html

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It appears that the Obama message is finally reaching the public masses in a real and understandable way as this video demonstrates..........

On Canceling The Informed Vote (Wizbang)

[cartman]

Ah, yes, taking the quotes of a single person and attributing them to all of the supporters of a candidate. It appears that McCain's message also reached "the public masses in a real and understandable way"

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by panerd

To me it's just like the John McCain "Obama is not an Arab, he's a good man" incident. Why does she have to go on the air and say she is a Christian who taught Sunday school? Why not ask what the godless shit has to do with being a good representative? I guess we aren't as far as a people as we think we are.

Hey, it's America. If your political opponent accuses you of being a child molester, you defend yourself and say it isn't true. If they stoop even lower and suggest you might be an atheist, you have to fight back, plain and simple.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ah, yes, taking the quotes of a single person and attributing them to all of the supporters of a candidate. It appears that McCain's message also reached "the public masses".

Ummm, we've been making fun of the extremes of either party in this entire thread. It's OK to drop your partisanship and have fun with the stupidity of others.

Try the other side of the bed tomorrow.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You want to talk about realpolitik? Then why not start with the reality that the US/any non-Muslim nation will never be allowed to peacefully co-exist with the Muslim dominated nation-states? The Israeli's seem to have figured that out a lot better than most.

Why not? In terms of the US this is an awful assumption.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Why not? In terms of the US this is an awful assumption.

I agree to some extent. I think his point should have clarified that peaceful co-existance with a Muslim-dominated country who provides safe harbor/support to terrorists is an impossibility. We could definitely have peace with a non-terrorist Muslim nation.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It appears that the Obama message is finally reaching the public masses in a real and understandable way as this video demonstrates..........

On Canceling The Informed Vote (Wizbang)

I look at it as her vote cancels a white supremacist's. Net zero.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I look at it as her vote cancels a white supremacist's. Net zero.

Exactly.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by panerd

To me it's just like the John McCain "Obama is not an Arab, he's a good man" incident. Why does she have to go on the air and say she is a Christian who taught Sunday school? Why not ask what the godless shit has to do with being a good representative? I guess we aren't as far as a people as we think we are.

Because to do what you suggest in that situation would be completely and politically tone deaf.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

To me it's just like the John McCain "Obama is not an Arab, he's a good man" incident. Why does she have to go on the air and say she is a Christian who taught Sunday school? Why not ask what the godless shit has to do with being a good representative? I guess we aren't as far as a people as we think we are.

Well, a couple things:

1) I agree that it shouldn't matter, but she's running in North Carolina, so let's be realistic. An open athiest isn't gonna win in North Carolina. It just won't happen.

2) For the context of the ad, it does matter that she's a Christian. The ad is bad enough for attacking someone for being an athiest. It's worse to do that when the person isn't even an athiest. It's especially bad when you try to make it seem like that person actually said, "There is no God!"

[molson]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The question I have is the people that are who high on Obama, what exactly are you expecting? Is he going to have to be extremely careful so he doesn't lose those undecided voters (the moderates/independents) going into the 2010 (making decisions that could impact the congressional races) and 2012 elections? What exactly are the rabid Obama supporters expecting? I mean, once he's elected, the "he's not Bush" thing is out the window. It seems like Obama has a much higher bar to clear than McCain would. Am I wrong on this?

Didn't you watch the video? They're expecting him to put gas in their car and pay their mortgage.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The question I have is the people that are who high on Obama, what exactly are you expecting? Is he going to have to be extremely careful so he doesn't lose those undecided voters (the moderates/independents) going into the 2010 (making decisions that could impact the congressional races) and 2012 elections? What exactly are the rabid Obama supporters expecting? I mean, once he's elected, the "he's not Bush" thing is out the window. It seems like Obama has a much higher bar to clear than McCain would. Am I wrong on this?

Additionally, the Bush administration could at least place blame on the Democrats if something didn't get done. The Democrats would have control of the legislative and executive branch if Obama wins the election. There's no safety net at that point. Any blame tossed towards the Republicans is going to fall on deaf ear.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Additionally, the Bush administration could at least place blame on the Democrats if something didn't get done. The Democrats would have control of the legislative and executive branch if Obama wins the election. There's no safety net at that point. Any blame tossed towards the Republicans is going to fall on deaf ear.

Like the Republicans blaming Democrats for legislative failures during the 2001-2007 time frame?

[ISiddiqui]

Why not? In terms of the US this is an awful assumption.

Yeah, it's like saying the US can't be friends with Turkey, Kuwait, Egypt, etc., a bunch of countries we've work very closely with in the past.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

Like the Republicans blaming Democrats for legislative failures during the 2001-2007 time frame?

Exactly my point. They got tossed on their ass in favor of the Democrats. People gave the Bush adminstration and the Republican Congress a term to get their stuff in gear. After it became obvious that they weren't doing anything, the tide quickly shifted and resulted in a passing of power in 2006. Obama and the Democrats would get a similar 3-4 year window from the public to make their mark. If they look like the Republican Congress did in 2005, they'll get the same boot.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by molson

Didn't you watch the video? They're expecting him to put gas in their car and pay their mortgage.

Well, I think she's got it part wrong. I'm pretty sure McCain is the one who wants to buy everyone's bad mortgages.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Well, I think she's got it part wrong. I'm pretty sure McCain is the one who wants to buy everyone's bad mortgages.

I hope people have been paying attention to how that bailout/rescue bill has already shown signs of being a waste of time. I also hope that no further stimulus/rescue/bailout bills are forthcoming as a result of that failure.

In related news, I'll likely hold my breath until I die, which would please the partisan masses to no end.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I look at it as her vote cancels a white supremacist's. Net zero.

I prefer to think of it as canceling out Joe the plumber. If this woman was a McCain supporter she'd be the central focus of his campaign and by Tuesday she'd be finalizing her record contract.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The question I have is the people that are who high on Obama, what exactly are you expecting?

Pot in every chicken.

(High. Pot. Get it?)