WW LXXXVII Terror at the University :Game over, Wolves win!

[jeff061]

Reading along, it seemed like you got a little bit derailed when arguing with Heinz about RPI, when in fact that that would have been the one time it would have been good to listen to the wolves.

From my view if that argument hadn't taken place and I hadn't gone overboard on the votes I wouldnt have pinned Rum.

A lot of the time I was trying to provoke situations, any type of situation that people have to react to and we can read later.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Still think that was the right move . If he was protected by Danny the worst that could happen is we get another seer view or he gets killed by a roomate incriminating them.

Still, I could see it being funny since it was all for naught .

Not casting judgement on the move, just enjoyed watching the reactions.

[Telle]

Gah. I TOLD you guys it was Chief. But no, you had to go and lynch me instead!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Telle

Gah. I TOLD you guys it was Chief. But no, you had to go and lynch me instead!

FWIW I was wavering between the two of you. Just thought we'd go Chief the next day - in fact my vote was there already in the morning.

Just didn't assume that RPI was an AWOL-villager. That really fucked us over.

Lathum - any reason why he wasn't replaced in the game? That gave a pretty shitty advantage to the wolves.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Lathum - any reason why he wasn't replaced in the game? That gave a pretty shitty advantage to the wolves.

I honestly was pretty short on time and never really got around to it.

By the time it became an issue it had turned into a strategic part of the game so I just ran with it.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That gave a pretty shitty advantage to the wolves.

Really though? I mean he had ample opportunities to get lynched. But since everyone presumed he was the janitor, no one wanted to. He didn't avoid lynch really due to inactivity.

[jeheinz72]

Speaking of RPI, here's the 1st PM, which I'll likely never understand...

Originally Posted by RPI-fan

Guys, just wanted to check in and say hello (and make it easy to do reply-all for future PM's, etc.).

Anyways I am a student and have a special role and want to get some feedback on it, but not sure how much info to give up to you guys or to the whole group... what are your guys thoughts?"

[Hannibal Lecter]

wow, trez wierd

the special role of...... viilegar!

[Danny]

I had a feeling Jeheinz was bad! Not sure what RPI was thinking. Chief played great, I didn't have a read on him even after I knew he was a wolf.

[Hannibal Lecter]

next time i see heinze im gonna kick him in the balls!

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Just didn't assume that RPI was an AWOL-villager. That really fucked us over.

Lathum - any reason why he wasn't replaced in the game? That gave a pretty shitty advantage to the wolves.

Dude, you sound like a Patriots fan...

Honestly though, there were plenty of chances to lynch him earlier and you happened to let the real janitor lead the way. If he had been lynched it probably would have pointed the village to the win at that point. Granted he was AWOL and could have been removed but where is the cutoff for that? One day? Two days? Even then does he get removed or replaced? If he is removed it puts the village down yet another man and that becomes an issue (if someone other than CR gets lynched the day he is removed the rguemtns is "the wolves basically had three kills that day"). If he is replaced that brings up issues of it's own.... someone who has nothing yet invested in the game, someone with no voting history, someone who has not had a chance to really get a feel for the game.

By the time the cutoff of replacing or removig him would have hit he was already mentioned as a primary lynch target being mentioned. In that case it makes more sense to either have no lynch that day and just remove RPI or hope everyone carries through with lynching him.

If whatever the last day was that he was here he said "I won't be here for X number of days." and then wasn't replaced that would be an issue.


I do think that this does bring up a rule that should become part of the games which says that you need to check into a thread at leas every X number of days to remain in a game. It needs to be a rule that is the same for everyone so there is no advantage to one side or the other. While we understand that RL issues take priority over a WW game we should still implement a rule like this to keep the issue from becoming something that makes the community implode (not saying it is that bad now but we should cut this off before it even has a chance to get there).

[EagleFan]

Oh, for the record I thought Telle was the janitor right up until she was lynched. With her going after CR I thought that move had just given us a chance to win if she did come back what I thought for sure she was. I had actually stopped reading into anyone else's posts and actions since I was so hard headed at thinking she was the janitor.

After that I just latched onto the RPI must be the janitor feeling and kept thinking that CR was shooting himself in the foot when he started going after RPI today. Wasn't sure if he was doing so because he picked up on jeheinz or if he was trying to throw people off his trail (with the whole "why would the wolf want to see the janitor killed" logic).

[hoopsguy]

Chief, I see you in the thread. Congrats on taking it down with Heinz.

[Chief Rum]

Man, this game was a ton of fun.

I'll take some due credit for playing effectively to keep alive, but, honestly, I made as many mistakes as anyone would, and other than remaining inscrutable and trying to stay out of the way of myself, I don't think my play was better than anyone else in the game.

The guy who should get the gold star is heinz. Wow, the janitor.

Here's the bombshell. I figured out heinz was the janitor...when Lathum told me today in the email after the game ended! That's right, never carped to it. I bought the RPI Fan as janitor theory hook, line and sinker (least I wasn't alone).

Here's the path to how heinz remained alive, despite being ostensibly cleared, and at one point, thought to be the seer (and other decisions we made as wolves).

Day One, as hoops pointed out, Danny actually blocked our attempt to kill heinz.

Day Two, JE seemed an obvious role player to us (although we leaned seer again), so heinz didn't get much attention.

Day Three, hoops was lynched at the end of this one, so I was essentially on my own. This was the key "who is Danny protecting?" sim. I actually put in a kill request for Danny, and hoops tossed out the possibility of going for The Jackal (he wasn't lynched yet, as we discussed it). I changed my mind and went with The Jackal. So kudos to hoops there, an excellent contribution on his way out.

Day Four, this was the RPI versus Gramm day, and the first day it really became clear that RPI was AWOL for sure (and the first time he became a strategic element in the game). BTW, to this point (or Day Three), I think we were leaning toward Telle being the janitor, until heinz came out with RPI's posts and The Jackal confirmed it. I wasn't too worried at this point, because I knew there were a ton of people who were not cleared. It was an easy decision to vote for Gramm and put that one vote to bed, since I had already started to argue the virtues of lynching RPI (but later, not then). The harder decision for me was at night--I kept getting paranoid and wondering if Danny really protected himself on Night Three, or if he protected a cleared player like Barkeep (who I could have killed anyway, he was my roomie), and would be on himself Night Four. In the end, Danny's own lesson became mine--KISS. Danny got tricky and The Jackal bought it. So I stayed simple and went after Danny. Who also protected heinz that night, giving the unofficial "clear" more weight.

On Day Five, At this point, I was like everyone else, assuming RPI was the janitor. Really, hard to figure otherwise with The Jackal confirming heinz's posts. Although I felt he was the janitor, I was thinking "free lynch". Any day I wasn't lynched was another day the game could last. So I started pushing the RPI lynch. It helped that Hannibal also was still looking bad from his Day One vote. I was starting to get some talk, particularly from Jeff, but Hannibal was on everyone's list. Hoops says here he thought I would go after Jeff that night actually, but I didn't for two reasons--BK was the only one definitely cleared, and I thought taking out Jeff (also uncleared himself at that point) would point the finger at me. Heinz still wasn't a consideration from the wolf perspective, because BK was more cleared. Keep in mind, at this time, I thought heinz was the second most cleared player in the game and one of the more dangerous players for me to keep around.

Yesterday, Day Six, was critical. With candidates disappearing, and Telle and Jeff coming hot and heavy, it seemed like I was the candidate. The move of the game, in fact, was Heinz (again) switching from me to Telle and swinging momentum. This did two things. Not only did it end up getting Telle lynched, it sent a message to me that Heinz could be swayed. Heinz was going to be my night kill last night until he did that. But I was looking at end game and asking myself who I could convince to side with me against DT or Abe, and I decided Heinz was being the most "open". I probably should have put two and two together at that point. So I took out Jeff instead, figuring if anyone came after me I could play that off as kinda "obvious", so not true.

BTW, Heinz' analysis on Day Six made the best case for Telle, but also made the second best case for me. Thanks for making me sweat there, guy.

Today (or last night, Day Seven), I was hoping we would finally take RPI down, and set up a showdown with me trying to swing Heinz to vote for Abe or DT, whichever I left alive (I hadn't decided yet, but ended up leaning toward DT). So despite Heinz being "cleared", I was still inclined to leave him around. I thought I had a better chance of swinging Heinz to DT than to Abe, so I killed Abe after we lynched RPI (finally).

Everything else you all know. Great game, heinz (and Lathum)!

[Danny]

Wow, too bad I didn't let Heinz die

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

After that I just latched onto the RPI must be the janitor feeling and kept thinking that CR was shooting himself in the foot when he started going after RPI today. Wasn't sure if he was doing so because he picked up on jeheinz or if he was trying to throw people off his trail (with the whole "why would the wolf want to see the janitor killed" logic).

Yup, EF, by this time, I was convinced RPI was a lost cause. The only way he was going to help me (and I was certain he was the janitor) was by being another guy to lynch, and so keeping me alive.

Remember, Hannibal was the last guy who was really on everyone's distrust lists, so after he was lynched Day Five, I needed to latch onto another shiny target before everyone came after me. And seeing that coming in advance, I started to campaign for RPI's "eventual lynching" as early as shortly after hoops bought it on Day Three.

So I went after RPI fully thinking he was the janitor and only using him to try to keep me alive for one more day, and then I would try to figure something else out.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Chief, I see you in the thread. Congrats on taking it down with Heinz.

Really, I had a lot of help, from you, and especially from Heinz. Even buying it so early, Eaglefan was a critical part of the game. And my hat's off to the mystery contribution that was RPI Fan.

Speaking of RPI, I know some have complained about that, but I think that aspect of the game made this whole thing much more interesting. The question of RPI added a different element to the game that we hadn't seen much before. I don't think it helped the wolves, really, or at least not until the end. RPI's absence and odd PMs were a wildcard, there to be used by either side. Early on, it would have helped the village. As the days went by, the wildcard swung to a wolf advantage.

This is easier to point out in hindsight, of course.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

Wow, too bad I didn't let Heinz die

It's hard to fault you, really. You made the "correct" play, protecting a guy who claimed to be the seer. Keep in mind, you caught EF that night. Maybe Heinz dies otherwise, but EF would still be alive, and that whole element would have completely changed the game (and who knows how that would have ended up).

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yup, EF, by this time, I was convinced RPI was a lost cause. The only way he was going to help me (and I was certain he was the janitor) was by being another guy to lynch, and so keeping me alive.

Remember, Hannibal was the last guy who was really on everyone's distrust lists, so after he was lynched Day Five, I needed to latch onto another shiny target before everyone came after me. And seeing that coming in advance, I started to campaign for RPI's "eventual lynching" as early as shortly after hoops bought it on Day Three.

So I went after RPI fully thinking he was the janitor and only using him to try to keep me alive for one more day, and then I would try to figure something else out.

When I saw what was going on today I had PM'd hoops basically saying "it's a shame CR can't find a way to keep RPI alive as it will be game over at that point". That is when he actually dropped the bombshell on me that RPI wasn't the janitor. My jaw dropped but I did have jeheinz at the top of my list for janitor possibilities since it wasn't RPI.

Actually I had initially misread hoops PM today and missed the NOT part. When I re-read the PM is when my jaw dropped.

Very well played CR. You got placed in survival mode after the first two lynches and did a very good job of surviving.

[Grammaticus]

The RPI situation demonstrates three things that should be golden rules or best practices at best:

1. If a player goes MIA, you lynch them period. It always works better for the villagers. The worst thing that can happen is you get to then end with a useless player.

2. When you have some evidence a player may be bad, always lynch them. Dont wait around. We did it correctly on Hoops, but not on RPI. Taking what you think is the Janitor is better than a blind shot at a wolf.

3. As a vanilla villager, never lie about having a role. It has the greatest chance of screwing the village. Let the power roles doe their thing and leave the lies to the wolves. It is always easier to catch them that way.

Also, dang it I knew something was not right with heinz. I can't figure out why you guys lynched me. After my day one antics, I thought it was pretty obvious I was not a wolf. I guess you guys just wanted to roll the dice or maybe it was because I was gunning for heinz.

[The Jackal]

Gram said basically everything I wanted to say. Way to persevere CR.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

The RPI situation demonstrates three things that should be golden rules or best practices at best:

1. If a player goes MIA, you lynch them period. It always works better for the villagers. The worst thing that can happen is you get to then end with a useless player.

2. When you have some evidence a player may be bad, always lynch them. Dont wait around. We did it correctly on Hoops, but not on RPI. Taking what you think is the Janitor is better than a blind shot at a wolf.

3. As a vanilla villager, never lie about having a role. It has the greatest chance of screwing the village. Let the power roles doe their thing and leave the lies to the wolves. It is always easier to catch them that way.

Also, dang it I knew something was not right with heinz. I can't figure out why you guys lynched me. After my day one antics, I thought it was pretty obvious I was not a wolf. I guess you guys just wanted to roll the dice or maybe it was because I was gunning for heinz.

This post should be added to the Werewolf Primer thread. Can't argue with anything listed here at all.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

The RPI situation demonstrates three things that should be golden rules or best practices at best:

1. If a player goes MIA, you lynch them period. It always works better for the villagers. The worst thing that can happen is you get to then end with a useless player.

2. When you have some evidence a player may be bad, always lynch them. Dont wait around. We did it correctly on Hoops, but not on RPI. Taking what you think is the Janitor is better than a blind shot at a wolf.

3. As a vanilla villager, never lie about having a role. It has the greatest chance of screwing the village. Let the power roles doe their thing and leave the lies to the wolves. It is always easier to catch them that way.

Also, dang it I knew something was not right with heinz. I can't figure out why you guys lynched me. After my day one antics, I thought it was pretty obvious I was not a wolf. I guess you guys just wanted to roll the dice or maybe it was because I was gunning for heinz.

Agreed on all 3 counts. Really, going against those is not a long-term beneficial play for the village. Yeah, you may get lucky now and again, but the house will eventually win.

And yeah, Gramm, you were a big time thorn in my side.

[jeheinz72]

Ha, that's crazy that you didn't know I was the janitor until the end CR. I thought I was pretty good at not wanting to vote for you, aside for that hour I switched back to make myself seem impartial.