Has anyone encountered this

[Fritz]

Has anyone encountered having to buy two seats?

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http://www.newsday.com/news/local/lo...news-headlines

Discomfort in the Sky
Weight policy doesn't sit well with all

By Carrie Levine
STAFF WRITER; Staff writer Kristopher Banks contributed to this story.

August 8, 2003

It was bad enough when the Southwest ticket agent told 333-pound Mike Pollack he was too big to fit on the plane and needed to buy an extra ticket.

But the last straw, he says, is when the man pointed to his stomach and started laughing.

"It was a miracle I didn't kill him, but I can't do my job from jail," said Pollack, 35, who works for DSA Community Publishing, a subsidiary of Newsday. "I'm dieting, and this didn't help my morale."

Pollack, of Farmingdale, tried to redeem a voucher for a free flight at the ticket counter at Long Island MacArthur Airport on June 14. He is taking a trip to Baltimore later this month and wanted to use the voucher to book the flight.

Instead, he bought his ticket on the Internet to avoid a similar situation at the ticket counter, and is hoping the gate agent doesn't make him buy a second seat to accommodate his 6-foot, now 290-pound frame before he gets on the flight.

Pollack is the latest to complain about a Southwest Airline policy that requires heavy customers to purchase two seats, but does not provide a weight limit or standard guidelines to apply the long-standing policy, which the airline announced a year ago it would start enforcing.

Many overweight frequent fliers say that over the past few years, airlines have begun aggressively discriminating against fat people, and since the number of available flights offered by troubled airlines has been shrinking, overcrowding is worsening the problem.

Frances White, a board member and spokeswoman for the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, said she expects to hear horror stories as the group's members squeeze into 17- to 20-inch wide seats and fly from all over the country to a convention this month in Los Angeles.

"It didn't used to be this bad when there were all kinds of flights every time of the day and night," she said. "Now that flights have been reduced and fill up faster, you have problems with people dealing with spatial issues."

Whitney Eichinger, a spokeswoman for Southwest Airlines, said the policy affects less than 5 percent of Southwest's customers.

"For both sides, it's a sensitive subject," she said, adding that employees are supposed to discuss the issue privately with customers.

"It's just handled as well as it can be because it's a very difficult situation for the customer and Southwest Airlines," she said. "We see how the customer will best fit and make a judgment."

But some advocates for the overweight say the judgment of gate attendants and untrained airline employees is inconsistent, resulting in uncertainty and fear of humiliation every time an overweight passenger checks in for a flight.

"It's a huge problem," said Sondra Solovay, an Oakland-based attorney who has written a book on what she terms "fat prejudice."

Solovay said she has looked into representing passengers in weight-discrimination cases against airlines and "this is a very hard situation to combat. There's no protection in the Constitution or in most federal regulations that prohibits weight-based discrimination. The general public has to become aware of just how unfair the treatment is."

White said part of the problem is uneven application of Southwest's policy. "If you get someone who doesn't like fat folks, you're going to get hassled. If you get someone who loves their fat mother, they'll go out of their way," she said.

Airlines have yet to coalesce around a single industry standard on the issue. For instance, a spokeswoman for Atlanta-based Delta Airlines said the airline tries to provide a second seat free when needed, and provides frequent-flier miles for the second seat when a customer decides to purchase one - something Southwest says it does not do.

But David Stempler, the president of the Air Travelers Association, an industry watchdog group, said the problem is two-sided. "I represent all the passengers, and a lot of times fairly heavy people are trying to get in these seats by raising the armrests and encroaching on the space of the other passenger," Stempler said.

Stempler said he believes it is fair for passengers to buy the extra seat when they cannot fit in the confines of the armrests.

He acknowledged that standardizing the way the regulation is applied is important, but said it is extremely difficult. "Unless you want to get a tape measure out and measure people's [behinds], I don't know how you're going to do it," he said.

Stempler said that to be fair, airlines should award double frequent-flier miles to people forced to buy a second seat - currently a bone of contention - and be as courteous as possible when enforcing the policy.

"Maybe there's an opportunity for some entrepreneurial airline to have extrawide seats," he said.

Staff writer Kristopher Banks contributed to this story.
Copyright © 2003, Newsday, Inc.

[Ksyrup]

This was an issue a while back, if I recall. I don't know of anyone who has had to buy two seats, although this story mirrors those from when the story first came out (minus the pointing and laughing, I assume).

[cuervo72]

What they need is a sizing apparatus similar to the one they use to measure carry-on bags.

"Maybe there's an opportunity for some entrepreneurial airline to have extrawide seats," he said.

Hmm, now there's an idea. Basically roomier, more comfortable seats would cost more. Though, first-class seats are already pretty roomy and comfortable.

[QuikSand]

"It's a huge problem," said Sondra Solovay, an Oakland-based attorney who has written a book on what she terms "fat prejudice."

Regrettable word choice.

[Mustang]

Originally posted by cuervo72
What they need is a sizing apparatus similar to the one they use to measure carry-on bags.

Hmm, now there's an idea. Basically roomier, more comfortable seats would cost more. Though, first-class seats are already pretty roomy and comfortable.

Midwest/Midwest Express out of Milwaukee has this. First class seating throughout. Pay a bit more but, I won't fly anything else If I have a choice.

[CamEdwards]

Fritz,

As you were posting this, I was talking about it on the air.

I actually had the NAAFA spokeswoman quoted in the story (Frances White) on the show last week. She tried to compare the plight of fat people to that of black people during the civil rights movement.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Fritz,

As you were posting this, I was talking about it on the air.

Yea, well we read the same websites...

[albionmoonlight]

One difference is that it is unconstitutional to discriminate against people based on race, but not on size. On that level, I would say that the two "plights" are different.

You can't force people to be nice. People are going to make fun of overweight people, and that is their right.

It is also my right to have less than no respect for people who make fat jokes.

As to the airline policy . . . I think that if they are going to charge overweight people extra, I don't see why it should stop at body weight. Jet fuel is expensive. When someone gets on a plane, weigh them and their luggage together and charge by the pound. Or just keep doing it like it has been working for the last 50 years or so.

And actually enforce the carry on policy. I dislike those women who get onto flights around Christmas with a huge overcoat, a purse, two carry on bags, and a couple of shopping bags. When challenged, they will claim that they only have two carry-ons and some "small personal bags." Those people, to me, take up more space than anyone in the cabin.

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Fritz,

As you were posting this, I was talking about it on the air.

I actually had the NAAFA spokeswoman quoted in the story (Frances White) on the show last week. She tried to compare the plight of fat people to that of black people during the civil rights movement.

And the reaction to this obvious hyperbole was...? I make a comparison to smoking on flights and the discomfort it caused others (color of ones skin should not cause discomfort). I fully agree that there should be a standardized, consistently enforceable policy, whether it be Southwest's or a more lenient one.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Fritz
Yea, well we read the same websites...

Actually, if you read my website, you would have learned about this on Friday.

Originally posted by Buccaneer
And the reaction to this obvious hyperbole was...? I make a comparison to smoking on flights and the discomfort it caused others (color of ones skin should not cause discomfort). I fully agree that there should be a standardized, consistently enforceable policy, whether it be Southwest's or a more lenient one.

My reaction was "When was the last time a fat person was lynched? When was the last time a fat person was sent to the back of the bus because of their weight? As the parent of two black children, I'm really offended that you would compare what their grandparents went through with being fat."

She apologized.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Actually, if you read my website, you would have learned about this on Friday.

I do read your site, just not every day.

My reaction was "When was the last time a fat person was lynched? When was the last time a fat person was sent to the back of the bus because of their weight? As the parent of two black children, I'm really offended that you would compare what their grandparents went through with being fat."

Your wife's parents were lynched?

[CamEdwards]

Fritz,

Actually, my wife is white as well. So, no... her parents weren't lynched.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Fritz,

Actually, my wife is white as well. So, no... her parents weren't lynched.

so much assumptions....

But your kid's grandparents were lynched?

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Fritz
so much assumptions....

But your kid's grandparents were lynched?

Yes.








Okay, actually... no. But they were sent to the back of the bus, and denied a seat in restaurants, told they couldn't stay in certain hotels because of the color of their skin, had to drink from different water fountains, use different bathrooms, etc. because of the color of their skin.

[Fritz]

then why say lynched?

[Radii]

At my highest weight ever(an extremely embarrasing 6'3" 330) I flew from Atlanta to Arkansas without any issues at all, that was a bit over a year ago or so though, it sounds like this is a newer policy than that. I weigh signifigantly less than that now and don't expect any problems when I fly next week (6'3" 285 and still falling fast).

[CamEdwards]

Because while my kids grandparents weren't lynched for being black, others were. I have yet to see a fat person lynched for being fat.

Imagine the rope they'd have to use.

[Daimyo]

"National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance"

Perhaps this is part of the problem? I assume there are people who suffer from medical conditions, disease, or genetics that cause them to be fat and these people should be afforded all the protections and acceptance given to all disabled. However, the vast majority of vastly overweight people are such because of a choice on their part.

That's not to say they should be mocked or laughed at. Being vastly overweight is a very difficult thing to deal with and I'm sure most of them don't really want to be fat and just don't understand how their choices lead them to the condition.

Part of the problem may lie with this "fat acceptance" movement. Its one thing to tell people to be confident and being overly fat doesn't mean you're a bad person, but its quite another to tell them they should accept that they are vastly overweight and thus imply they should be content in their situation. IMO, no one should be content to be vastly overweight... for one it is an obvious health risk and for two it inconviences everyone around you (as in this airline example). But if you tell someone they should accept their condition and it is perfectly alright to be vastly overweight something that should even be celebrated, what incentive do they have to try to lose weight?

I don't think it is nearly too much to ask for someone to pay for two seats if they are so big that they require two seats. Why make the airline eat a loss on that second seat if you're the reason they can't sell it?

NOTE: I say this as someone who is currently overweight and who was a year ago vastly overweight - I lost over 100 points between last July and this Janruary. I used to buy into the whole "accept it" lies and it wasn't until I realized I didn't have to just accept my condition, but could actually work to improve it that I made any headway at all. Now it annoys me to death whenever I hear people propigate that "fat acceptance" BS.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Because while my kids grandparents weren't lynched for being black, others were. I have yet to see a fat person lynched for being fat.

Imagine the rope they'd have to use.

Hmm, none of the fat people I see on the evening news have heads - what would hold the ropes on?

[detroit_fan]

Oh we have heads, just no neck. The chins keep getting in the way.

[mckerney]

I'm far from overweight, and I've had trouble fitting in seats on planes for the duration of a flight. I'm 5'11" and around 180 pounds at about 11-15% bodyfat and on a flight from Orlando to Minneapolis and the seat seemed too small, there was no where near enough leg room and my legs cramped up to the point where I could hardly walk after getting off the plane, so I could understand how a larger person could require two seats. Of course, I should mention that I for this trip I had to go on my I had the vast displeasure of flying on Omni Air (I'd never heard of them either before that). Thier planes are total shit. If they were to put a coach section in the plane they'd be able to see the tickets as first class.

[Butter]

In a related story, I think it's actually unconstitutional for morbidly obese people to be hanged, because the weight would tear the head completely from the body.

I forget where I read this, and am too lazy to provide a link. So nyah.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
As to the airline policy . . . I think that if they are going to charge overweight people extra, I don't see why it should stop at body weight. Jet fuel is expensive. When someone gets on a plane, weigh them and their luggage together and charge by the pound. Or just keep doing it like it has been working for the last 50 years or so.

I think this is more of a size issue than that of weight. Now, if we could have people stop looking at it from a 'discrimination' point of view, lets look at it from a business point of view from the airlines:

Now, if someone is of the size that they take up two seats, that's one less seat that the airline is able to sell on the flight. Is it that unreasonable to ask them to pay for another seat then? Also I believe I've heard that if a flight is not sold out or overbooked, those who were required to purchase a second ticket were given a refund. As the industry has not exactly doing that great as a whole, is what their doing really so long all things considered?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by mckerney
Of course, I should mention that I for this trip I had to go on my I had the vast displeasure of flying on Omni Air (I'd never heard of them either before that). Thier planes are total shit. If they were to put a coach section in the plane they'd be able to see the tickets as first class.

Hmm, I couldn't even imagine flying in one of these.

[Buccaneer]

Daimyo, perhaps you could publish an open letter to NAAFA on what you said?

As one who is functionally disabled, there is never a reason for mockery. However, there are limitations that have to be accepted. NAAFA's agenda, right or wrong, is get businesses to conform to wide girths (on airplanes, in theatres, etc.). Knowing that less seats = less revenues or more accurately, less seats = higher prices, to what extent should they be accomodating? My point earlier was that airlines rightly discriminated against smokers by banning smoking in-flight, does this fall into the same category and if so, why would it be a problem?