Does your MP league have anti-tanking rules?

[Ben E Lou]

If you do, please point me to your rules. I'd love to take a look at how they are worded. Thanks!

[Front Office Midget]

In the eNFL:

* The general rule during the regular season is simple: you must start your starters and, taking into account both the short run and the long run, attempt to put your team in the best position to win. You have discretion in determining your starters, but your decisions must be in good faith and backed by logical football reasoning. You may not "tank" the season simply because you are out of the playoffs. Being out of the playoffs is not license to give up and treat the regular season like the preseason. The League will determine in its discretion whether this rule has been violated and fashion an appropriate remedy, including but not limited to dropping a team in the draft order or taking away draft picks.

* There are two exceptions to this rule:

* A player injured to any degree may be inactivated or benched until fully healed.

* Once a team has definitively clinched a playoff berth, that team may rest its starters if it so chooses.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Front Office Midget

In the eNFL:

* The general rule during the regular season is simple: you must start your starters and, taking into account both the short run and the long run, attempt to put your team in the best position to win. You have discretion in determining your starters, but your decisions must be in good faith and backed by logical football reasoning. You may not "tank" the season simply because you are out of the playoffs. Being out of the playoffs is not license to give up and treat the regular season like the preseason. The League will determine in its discretion whether this rule has been violated and fashion an appropriate remedy, including but not limited to dropping a team in the draft order or taking away draft picks.

That actually doesn't sound simple at all.

[Yoda]

Yep, the eNFL where the league admin tells each owner who their starters are.

[tarcone]

This is the IFL rule:

4c: Catch All Anti-Douchebag Rule:
This is a catch all rule involving tanking, being a dick on the board, etc. Thankfully we've only had 1 or 2 instances guys trying to subvert fairness in the past and they were dealt with swiftly. I have no desire to make up a ton of rules regarding fairness and dickery. If you're trying to subvert fair play or being an asshat I will deal with you.

[sidthelid]

Originally Posted by tarcone

This is the IFL rule:

4c: Catch All Anti-Douchebag Rule:
This is a catch all rule involving tanking, being a dick on the board, etc. Thankfully we've only had 1 or 2 instances guys trying to subvert fairness in the past and they were dealt with swiftly. I have no desire to make up a ton of rules regarding fairness and dickery. If you're trying to subvert fair play or being an asshat I will deal with you.

I like this rule

[Yoda]

While it comes across as a really 'cool' rule, the problem is that something like that is subjective and not objective.

Granted, leagues are in general dictatorships or a benevolent Oligarchy at best.

[Firefly]

Telling you who to start is ridiculous.

I don't see what midget says about the eNFL match what yoda says about it, however. Are we talking about 2 different leagues?

[Subby]

Subjective rules suck, much like leagues that use them.

Yes, your league sucks.

[Groo]

I think FOWL's no draft, FA Frenzy system is the best anti-tanking effort. I wish there were more leagues using this system. I'd join in a heartbeat

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Groo

I think FOWL's no draft, FA Frenzy system is the best anti-tanking effort. I wish there were more leagues using this system. I'd join in a heartbeat

Absolutely - this is easily the best selling point for the league. Unfortunately most people aren't savvy enough to be successful with this approach. They need the spoonfeeding and handholding that an amateur draft provides. Rewarded for being shitty! Awesome!

[Yoda]

While I agree that the no draft system for the FOWL is pretty nice, a HUGE drawback is the fact that missing exports kills you because of the pace of the league.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Yep, the eNFL where the league admin tells each owner who their starters are.

Boy I must have missed all those emails and PMs telling me who to start...

/runs to check inboxes

Nope, nothing there.

[Groo]

Originally Posted by Yoda

While I agree that the no draft system for the FOWL is pretty nice, a HUGE drawback is the fact that missing exports kills you because of the pace of the league.

It is quick... In this case I was talking about a league with a regularly paced schedule and the no draft system. I couldn't handle several leagues moving at the rate FOWL moves. But it IS fun to play in FOWL, though.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Boy I must have missed all those emails and PMs telling me who to start...

/runs to check inboxes

Nope, nothing there.

The eNFL is the only league I have ever quit.

There are plenty of examples of the admin pm'ing owners to tell them to start one player over another. Example- Team A had 2 QB's, one was rated in the low 60's, the 2nd was rated like a 48. The 60's rated QB had high passing bars, but low intangible bars. The 48 rated QB had crappy passing bars and high intangible bars. The team started out like 0-4, the owner started the 48 rated QB and won the next 3 games. He received a PM from the admin telling him he had to start the 60's rated QB.

In my ~3 years in that league it came up at least once a season, if not more. Personally, another one of my favorites was when the admin docked a team a 3rd round pick for trading their 5th RB. (The RB in question was signed that season in FA, and the league had a rule against trading players that were signed in that seasons FA, so instead of reversing the trade or using one of the other similar rated RB's on the teams roster in question, they docked the team a 3rd round pick).

I was on the admin in the eNFL before I quit. I know what I am talking about.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Subby

Subjective rules suck, much like leagues that use them.

Yes, your league sucks.

Oh how the jealous lash out against the great. Funny stuff.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Yoda

While I agree that the no draft system for the FOWL is pretty nice, a HUGE drawback is the fact that missing exports kills you because of the pace of the league.

But it's only a few short weeks before that mistake is washed away and made up for. In another league if you miss the draft you're screwed for months...

[Subby]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Oh how the jealous lash out against the great. Funny stuff.

Hah. Not a chance I am jealous, trust me.

[Hoya1]

Originally Posted by Subby

Hah. Not a chance I am jealous, trust me.

that's not very nice.

[RedKingGold]

I bet Subby's man-boobs are better lookin' than tarcones

[Kodos]

Saaaaaaaaaay. How's Iowa's undefeated season going, budday?

[Subby]

My manboobs are love. Tarcone's are not.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Saaaaaaaaaay. How's Iowa's undefeated season going, budday?

Badly, but most of the team returns. And it looks like we will be in the Fiesta bowl. How is your team doing?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Subby

My manboobs are love. Tarcone's are not.

Luckily I dont have manboobs, so you win.

[TheMeat]

Really the ideal house rules would try not to even deal with consequences for tanking as that seems to be subjective at best and instead look to make tanking of very little strategic value. Without any house rule it's just too valuable a strategy, straight up. It's the best way to get better draft picks, which is the best way to build your team. And far too tempting once you've missed the playoffs and get frustrated.

Draft Lottery, some kind of crazy draft alternative (read: FOWL).....

A league I ran with a friend we each got "points" at the end of the season relative to various statistical categories but no actual picks, I deleted our picks and let the CPU teams draft, grabbed a draft log from the html output but just reloaded to before the draft and we took turns "buying" players off the draft using the NFL pick value chart. We used a message board to post our choices. It was fun but the points reward for finishing last in our championship points race weren't a huge difference from 1st to last. Also, and this is probably more important, we had injuries off and did the season in one day so starters didn't get changed

Upon convincing him to join FOWL with me, we no longer play that league

[Firefly]

The new vNFL Edge will use a lottery system.

vNFLEdge - Reimagining, Innovating & Trailblazing FOF2K7

[Hammer]

I can't believe the vNFL's 3rd league has filled up 28 out of 32 spots in a matter of days. Both the others are also full, and with a waiting list. Wow.

[Yoda]

vNFL is a great community. Beargrowlz and the vNFL admin have done a great job.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Badly, but most of the team returns. And it looks like we will be in the Fiesta bowl. How is your team doing?

My team sucks beyond belief and will continue to do so indefinitely.

[Leprechaun]

i think tanking is one of the biggest problems that the game engine cant do anything about. and within that prolbem, the biggest problem is so many people dont want to acknowledge it. im glad someone is looking into the issue and trying to find some ways to resolve it.

maybe the best place for me is the vnfl. they seem to be trying to improve the game there by looking at problems, acknowledging them, and finding a way to overcome the problems.

fowl seems nice too, but there are so few players. maybe you should try to fill the league and start over, it seems like joining now would put you at a disadvantage for at least 5-6 seasons. might be interesting for new players trying to get the mp experience.

[Disturbed]

I have only heard two complaints really with the FOWL.

1. The pace of the league.

2. Many people feel that the draft is the most fun part of the game for them.

I personally dropped the FOWL because I was having a hard time keeping up due to medical issues, but it was a fun experience.

It would be interesting to see a new league form that used the same no draft concept but ran at a slower, normal league pace.

[Groo]

You can add lack of trading for problems with FOWL. Without draft picks, plus the speed of the league, there is very little trading.

My personal opinion is that it's much more competitive than most leagues I've taken the time to check out, simply because you have to compete for every player you want. Tanking is completely useless in the league. Financial management is a huge challenge when you first start... I'll be in my 3rd season, and it will be a very difficult one.

The pace of the league is also a positive. You will have a few average years to start off, but they will go by very quickly.

As far as restarting the league, all that history would just be washed away. I can't see that as a good thing. I think everyone should come over and join FOWL. See if you like it. A season is run in 2 weeks, so you aren't using up a lot of your time to test it out for a season or two. I think it's a great concept in MP technology

Getting back to the original premise of this thread. I like what vNFL Edge is doing. I can't wait until we have a few seasons under our belt to see how their ideas work out. The no draft idea in FOWL is, in my estimation, the BEST way to deal with tanking. Obviously, this won't fit everyone. As Disturbed said, some people like the draft. A slower paced no draft league would not fit everyone's interest in the game, but I'd love to see it just to see how well it works overall. The 'traders' and 'drafters' would not like it, but guys like me who like the financial element should love it, as it can be very challenging to play within the cap. Also, I think strategy purists should like this as well, as finding alternate strategies would become a must, since most people would be using the same strategy, and the QB/WR combos could become ultra expensive, where a new strategy, like Ben's 2 TE strategy, would really give someone an edge... if only temporarily. I can't see a more pure strategical form of MP FOF, honestly. But then, I don't have the experience of so many others here.

[gtmarc]

Too bad American football doesn't have relegation and promotion. If you want to see a losing soccer team hustle to win games, threaten them with being kicked down to a lower division. This time of year you can see some amazingly competitive games between weak teams battling to stay out of the 'relegation zone.'

Since you can't do that in FOF, maybe a popular league with a waiting list of new potential owners might say that the GM with the worst record in the league gets fired and a new GM from the waiting list gets that team?

The team would still get the high draft picks from 'tanking'. But the GM that lost so many games would become a TV announcer telling us all how brilliant he is.

Or, a popular MP league might set up two 'divisions'. The top handful (maybe 3 or 4) of the winning-est GMs from the 'B division' get to trade places with the handful of losing-est GMs from the 'A division' each year?

Just a thought.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by gtmarc

Since you can't do that in FOF, maybe a popular league with a waiting list of new potential owners might say that the GM with the worst record in the league gets fired and a new GM from the waiting list gets that team?

This is funny.

[gtmarc]

Or .... another variation on a multi 'league' MP 'association'.

Each GM gets points for their success. Maybe something like

1 pt ... regular season win
1 pt ... wild-card playoff win
2 pt ... division playoff win
3 pt ... conference champ win
4 pt ... super-duper bowl game win

And, maybe pts in the A League get a multiplier of 2 or something. Or maybe not if you like more rotation of GMs in the top league.

At the start of each season, the 32 GMs with the most career points get the 32 teams in the A League. The remainder go to the B League. Or the C League. Or the ....

Maybe the GM who's won 3 A League super-duper bowls can get away with tanking. But for most other GMs, while they are getting maybe 4 pts for their 2-14 #2 draft pick season, someone else is catching their owner's eye by racking up 24 pts for a 15-1 championship season in the B League. Too many tanking seasons, and then other GMs look better to your owner and you get fired.

A little more stable for long-term GMs in an 'association' than simple relegation where one bad season might kick you into the B League. But, it would seem to provide an incentive for most GMs to be concerned about winning games and building their point score in the association.

This would also have the side effect of being 'no waiting list' associations. New players come in to the association taking over an available AI team in the lowest league. You can have as many of these league levels as their is interest in the association.

[gtmarc]

Glad you thought so.... I aim to entertain.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by gtmarc

Glad you thought so.... I aim to entertain.

His point is that most leagues can barely stay full and don't have much if any of a waiting list, so no one would be available to step in. IHOF might have been able to get away with it back in its heyday, but that's about it.

[Surtt]

Has anyone tried a power rating after training camp to determine draft order?
If the draft order is set before the season started there would be no reason to tank.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Has anyone tried a power rating after training camp to determine draft order?
If the draft order is set before the season started there would be no reason to tank.

Wow, I had to do a double take to make sure I was reading that right.

Wow.

Wow.

[jdavidbakr]

In the NFL, teams don't want to have a top-5 or so pick because they're too darn expensive. FOF doesn't really simulate the expense of a high draft pick. What if the top 5 or top 10 (or 15 even) picks in the draft came with a graduated salary cap dead space? Just a thought.

[dunkie23]

I've not ever played in an MP league, so I don't even know if this would logistically be possible, but what about this?

In a 32 team league, you can divide the league into 8 different echelons, if you will, each with 4 teams. The bottom group would be the 4 worst teams from the previous season -- 29, 30, 31 and 32 place teams.

Give the 29th place team first pick, the 30th place team second, 31st third, and 32nd 4th pick.

Rinse and repeat with every 4 team grouping, even so that the champion would get the 29th pick, rather than the 32nd pick, championship loser would have 30th pick, third place would get the 31st pick, and fourth place would get the 32nd pick. Just an added bonus for winning.

Alternatively, the twelve teams that make playoffs -- if you choose -- don't need to be subjected to this system and would pick normally, or any other combination possible. Maybe just the bottom eight teams go through this system.

Setting it up like this, parity would remain in tact, keep teams from purposely tanking, -- because there becomes too much uncertainty where you would pick -- and can even reward the champion, if you decided to.

[azjoe_02]

Originally Posted by dunkie23

I've not ever played in an MP league, so I don't even know if this would logistically be possible, but what about this?

In a 32 team league, you can divide the league into 8 different echelons, if you will, each with 4 teams. The bottom group would be the 4 worst teams from the previous season -- 29, 30, 31 and 32 place teams.

Give the 29th place team first pick, the 30th place team second, 31st third, and 32nd 4th pick.

Rinse and repeat with every 4 team grouping, even so that the champion would get the 29th pick, rather than the 32nd pick, championship loser would have 30th pick, third place would get the 31st pick, and fourth place would get the 32nd pick. Just an added bonus for winning.

Alternatively, the twelve teams that make playoffs -- if you choose -- don't need to be subjected to this system and would pick normally, or any other combination possible. Maybe just the bottom eight teams go through this system.

Setting it up like this, parity would remain in tact, keep teams from purposely tanking, -- because there becomes too much uncertainty where you would pick -- and can even reward the champion, if you decided to.

This is somewhat intriguing...