Fast and Furious : Gun Walking

[DougW]

Curious to hear what others think of the scenario, or if this has even made common national news. It's pretty big around my area, but I'm not sure if it's widespread, or if it's because the Border Patrol agent that was killed was from our town (my wife went to high school with him).

Down and dirty is the government dealt weapons to Mexico to track the firearms as they were transferred to higher-level traffickers and key figures in Mexican cartels, with the expectation that this would lead to their arrests and the dismantling of the cartels. Well, they traced the gun that killed the Agent (Brian Terry) was one of the guns that was fed by us into Mexico. A big cover-up has ensued, where no one is taking responsibility for authorizing, or having knowledge of the program.

Due to refusing to disclose internal Justice Department documents in response to a subpoena Attorney General Eric Holder became the first sitting member of the Cabinet to ever be held in criminal contempt of Congress. This was a couple weeks ago.

A fairly lengthy wiki, in case you wanted to read more. :
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JPhillips]

Fortune Magazine on F & F

[JPhillips]

And a followup:

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/...nd-gun-stores/

[Peregrine]

Been pretty big national news from what I've seen - and for quite a while.

[cubboyroy1826]

I think heard somewhere that they actually forgot to put the tracking devices into the guns.

[Chief Rum]

F & F Boss: "Are the guns all packed?"
Agent Six: "Yes."
F & F Boss: "Ammo?"
Agent Six: "Yes."
F & F Boss: "Have we identified the badass crooks we want to send these to?"
Agent Six: "Yes."
F & F Boss: "Great! Is there anything, anything at all that we are missing? Anything we would need to nab the bad guys?"
Agent Six: "I don't think so, sir."
F & F Boss: "Terrific. Deliver the shipment then!"

[Glengoyne]

The fortune piece is a new side, and frankly one that makes more sense than all of the Hyperbole.

Although reconciling that with Holder's "We never should have done this..." type comments is a bit tough.

[sterlingice]

It's no 4 Faster 4 Furiouser

SI

[M GO BLUE!!!]

So the same people who are all up in arms (no pun intended) over gun walking are the same ones who are against any form of gun control, making that it violates the Constitution.

Or is it that by letting guns walk we're actually trying to do something about illegal guns being out there in the first place, thus making this about gun control. If the guns were just spread all willy-nilly out there without the government having been involved it would be ok. The border patrol agent wouldn't have been killed, as the Mexican gang wouldn't have been able to get their hands on any guns and would have just decided to drink a soda and watch a movie instead (or something of that matter.)

Yeah, we screwed up. It's not the first time. Won't be the last. I'd rather make a mistake in attempting to solve a problem than to do nothing at all. It would be nice if the government learned from mistakes though...

[DougW]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

If the guns were just spread all willy-nilly out there without the government having been involved it would be ok. The border patrol agent wouldn't have been killed, as the Mexican gang wouldn't have been able to get their hands on any guns and would have just decided to drink a soda and watch a movie instead (or something of that matter.)

Yeah, we screwed up. It's not the first time. Won't be the last. I'd rather make a mistake in attempting to solve a problem than to do nothing at all.

See, this is exactly where I am thinking in the situation. But, I'd be cut off for years if I said it out loud. I can "hint", and drop subtle "think about it" clue - but I have to tread lightly. My wife, and her fellow classmates (and his family) are completely outraged, to the point where it's the #1 social topic very often. They want someones head. As if there is one dude that was like .. "Here, take this gun, and kill that guy".

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by DougW

See, this is exactly where I am thinking in the situation. But, I'd be cut off for years if I said it out loud. I can "hint", and drop subtle "think about it" clue - but I have to tread lightly. My wife, and her fellow classmates (and his family) are completely outraged, to the point where it's the #1 social topic very often. They want someones head. As if there is one dude that was like .. "Here, take this gun, and kill that guy".

It's as if Barack HUSSEIN Obama pulled the trigger himself. While holding the Quran, cursing America and forcing our children into same-sex marriages.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

It's as if Barack HUSSEIN Obama pulled the trigger himself. While holding the Quran, cursing America and forcing our children into same-sex marriages.

He was also pissing on a Bible made from an American flag. Please stop leaving out important details.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by mckerney

He was also pissing on a Bible made from an American flag. Please stop leaving out important details.

Geez, sorry. Give a guy a break. At least we can't criticize him for continuing 90% of the policies of the previous administration... because that would be too close to the truth.

Anybody with half a toe dipped in the fairness puddle (can't say it's a pool, because there doesn't seem to be a lot of it) would have to admit that the outrage is 99.9% political in nature. It sucks that a man lost his life with a weapon that our government could have prevented from being out there. I would hope everyone involved feels remorse. This is however, a world where things do come back around. Many Americans were killed in WWII by aircraft designed by Americans in peace-time (to us) Germany. We have sold weapons to "friends" that have been in a few short years have been turned against us. Somewhere out there is/was a Marine instructor who trained a man to be a sharpshooter who eventually assassinated a president.

The best option to try and prevent guns from illegally crossing the border lies in a solution that neither party seems fond of: Build a "Great Wall" along the southern border. A reinforced, 30-ft wide, 40-ft tall wall staffed with border patrol in HUMVEE's that can be at an area within minutes of any problems shown on the surveillance system.

That won't happen. We don't build any real public works projects anymore. Imagine proposing the Hoover Dam today... We have to spend how much money and force an entire town to move so we can flood the valley?

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The best option to try and prevent guns from illegally crossing the border lies in a solution that neither party seems fond of: Build a "Great Wall" along the southern border. A reinforced, 30-ft wide, 40-ft tall wall staffed with border patrol in HUMVEE's that can be at an area within minutes of any problems shown on the surveillance system.

not sure if serious? that's addressing a symptom. drug prohibition is the problem.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

not sure if serious? that's addressing a symptom. drug prohibition is the problem.

It was serious. I agree with you too.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by DougW

See, this is exactly where I am thinking in the situation. But, I'd be cut off for years if I said it out loud. I can "hint", and drop subtle "think about it" clue - but I have to tread lightly. My wife, and her fellow classmates (and his family) are completely outraged, to the point where it's the #1 social topic very often. They want someones head. As if there is one dude that was like .. "Here, take this gun, and kill that guy".

This is my assessment and situation as well. It is amazing how the political movers and shakers (and not just on the right. Both parties do this) can get the country focused on something pretty minor, and create "outrage."

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

if the violence that's happening in mexico was happening in iran/pakistan it'd lead on cnn every night and we'd be talking about the nuclear option.

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

It was serious. I agree with you too.

i don't think building the northern wall from game of thrones between us and mexico is going to solve anything.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

mexico should join opec. we'd be liberating their peoples tout suite

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

not sure if serious? that's addressing a symptom. drug prohibition is the problem.

If you want to go that route, the problem is actually far too lenient policy toward those who violate drug laws. Put the necessary teeth in it, you'll reduce the problem significantly (and cut the recidivism rate to zero).

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you want to go that route, the problem is actually far too lenient policy toward those who violate drug laws. Put the necessary teeth in it, you'll reduce the problem significantly (and cut the recidivism rate to zero).

i like it. let's start with nicotine

[panerd]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Geez, sorry. Give a guy a break. At least we can't criticize him for continuing 90% of the policies of the previous administration... because that would be too close to the truth.

Anybody with half a toe dipped in the fairness puddle (can't say it's a pool, because there doesn't seem to be a lot of it) would have to admit that the outrage is 99.9% political in nature. It sucks that a man lost his life with a weapon that our government could have prevented from being out there. I would hope everyone involved feels remorse. This is however, a world where things do come back around. Many Americans were killed in WWII by aircraft designed by Americans in peace-time (to us) Germany. We have sold weapons to "friends" that have been in a few short years have been turned against us. Somewhere out there is/was a Marine instructor who trained a man to be a sharpshooter who eventually assassinated a president.

The best option to try and prevent guns from illegally crossing the border lies in a solution that neither party seems fond of: Build a "Great Wall" along the southern border. A reinforced, 30-ft wide, 40-ft tall wall staffed with border patrol in HUMVEE's that can be at an area within minutes of any problems shown on the surveillance system.

That won't happen. We don't build any real public works projects anymore. Imagine proposing the Hoover Dam today... We have to spend how much money and force an entire town to move so we can flood the valley?

Count me as one of the 0.1% then that is upset and doesn't think our government is above being punished for mistakes that kill people and also doesn't think "It's always been this way" is reason enough to just blow it off. Feel the same way about Dick Cheney outing a CIA agent. These "mistakes" cost people their lives. If I knowingly sold the weapons I would be in prison.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

i like it. let's start with nicotine

You see Jon's views only count towards things he doesn't like. Nicotine and alcohol are legal through government corruption but drugs don't have the same lobby so drug users need to have their heads chopped off.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you want to go that route, the problem is actually far too lenient policy toward those who violate drug laws. Put the necessary teeth in it, you'll reduce the problem significantly (and cut the recidivism rate to zero).

While it is true that if you immediately execute people caught with a joint or any sort of illegal drug within 50 yards of them (we have to account for people who may have had it in their possession a few minutes ago) you would eliminate the problem, would it make society better?

We would have to include ALL illegal drugs and drugs that are legal, but obtained illegally. Hope your 15 year old doesn't have a taste for beer...

[M GO BLUE!!!]

PS. Alcohol Prohibition worked pretty well in the 1920's.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

it's all very meme-worthy

mexico: help! dangerous criminals have taken over our country!
usa: sends guns to dangerous criminals
mexico: que?
usa: you're doin' a heckuva job brownie