Heaven and Hell

[Sun Tzu]

No, not the 1980 Black Sabbath album.

I know it's been a while since we've had a discussion revolving around religion, and I also know that there's a 50/50 shot that any time I bring up religion I'm going to be tarred and feathered, regardless of how or why I bring it up. I would, however, like to bring it up today for a very specific, non-inflammatory reason.

My thoughts on religion are constantly evolving. I think it's been well-documented that I'm Jewish, but my thoughts on God/s, heaven, hell, and scripture change almost monthly.

I'm curious to hear if you believe you are going to your respective religions heaven/hell, and why you believe this. Additionally, what do you think your heaven/hell will look like, and why?

Again, I'd like to keep this thread somewhat civilized. I know our little community has opinions that span from one end of the spectrum to the other, but lets not let those differences in opinion keep us from being civilized...eh?

[sabotai]

[Sun Tzu]

With all sincerity, I am in no way trying to "stir the pot" here. I think I'm asking a very honest question, and for those here who are devout in their beliefs, I would very much like to hear their views on this subject.

[cougarfreak]

The much lauded Creation Museum is about 2 miles from my house if anyone is up for a visit.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

hell is for children

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

hell is for children

and heaven isn't too far away...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

No, not the 1980 Black Sabbath album.

Well crap.

And not even the reunited lineup that toured under the same name either

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

and heaven isn't too far away...

I hear there is a stairway there...

[MizzouCowboy]

So, so you think you can tell?

[Sun Tzu]

You know what I like most about this thread?

Irony.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Everyone is trying to get to the bar
The name of the bar, the bar is called heaven

[Marc Vaughan]

Personally, my views are that I "don't know" - I live my life to the best of my ability trying to improve those of the people around me when possible.

I have no idea about 'who God is' (or if there is one) or whether there is a heaven or hell ... tbh to me it makes no difference really, everyone decides how to act and behave and what legacy they want to leave behind them - I'd like to think that the ripples from my life will be positive, that it basically.

(if there is a God however me and he will be having a few words before he sends me up or down, as there is much in this life which seems a tad screwy to me and I'd like some answers about it )

[MizzouCowboy]

My views are pretty much the same as Marc. I don't know and I'd really like some type of proof.

I've had some people tell me that I will go to hell since I don't go to church and I don't believe in God. My response to them is usually that we're already in hell, we just don't realize it. I point out the murders, wars, rapes, and who knows what else, and figure it couldn't be much worse. Of course, they let me know that is the work of the devil. Besides, I really like to freak 'em out since they take it so serious.

[BillJasper]

I think there's something more to us than we know, I think some part of us survives when our body dies. But I don't believe in heaven or hell, seems a bit too simplistic.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by MizzouCowboy

So, so you think you can tell?

It isn't too hard to see...

[MizzouCowboy]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

It isn't too hard to see...

I'm findin' it hard to believe...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I hear there is a stairway there...

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by MizzouCowboy

I'm findin' it hard to believe...

Ooh baby do you know what thats worth?

[molson]

I believe that organized religion, and most of the symbols within it like heaven and hell, are crude human interpretations of very real things in what you can broadly call "spirituality", but is really just everything we don't understand about everything - nature, astronomy, psychology, physiology, biology, evolution. I believe we comprehend such a tiny tiny part of the universe and religion is one of the ways we can make sense of some of the spillover stuff that we can only get glimpses of. I also believe that when human beings make such religions and religious icons so important to their spiritual selves, and to their culture, it can take on a life of its own and actually become a part of that universe we don't really understand. Or to state that another way, I believe that if the universe started with bacteria and literally nothing else, the evolution of the universe and the living things in it would actually create not just religion but a reality behind the religion. For example, I believe that if 6 billion humans worshiped a lake monster, and then 99% of the of the humans died and nobody talked about lake monsters for generations, there would still be something in our universe that collected or preserved that lake monster icon, that monster would have some kind of reality in the universe that could be tapped into. I think all of this certainly could be explained with what we think of as "science", though a full understanding of it is so far beyond the capability of the human brain, all we can do is scratch the surface of it with "religion."

What I really feel strongly about is how little we can know about the human brain and DNA and astronomy. One of the reasons I get so annoyed by full-on religion-bashing atheists, is to me, they're saying that human beings have figured out everything there is to know about the universe (and the human brain/DNA/astronomy/etc.), Because to me, it's ultimately all the same thing, an attempt to understand more. Our brains are very limited, and to limit your search for understanding with the "science" that's within the immediate understanding of our limited brains is like staring down a tunnel but never looking up or down or left or right. Prayer/meditation/religion, to me, is looking for understanding in some of those other directions. It's just that what you learn looking in those other directions comes back in a different language, but I believe it's just as real.

Edit: Though I find the preachy atheists quite annoying, I'm getting better at not caring and I've always been good at keeping it to myself (which is helpful, since I have a lot of preachy atheist friends who would be pretty shocked if they knew my dark secret - I pray, I meditate, I try to connect to nature and people through these tools, and, most sinister of all - I actually am starting to understand the benefits of man-made organized religion, and I appreciate and learn from all of them, though I am not a member of any and I don't attend church.)

[MizzouCowboy]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Ooh baby do you know what thats worth?

They say in Heaven love comes first.

Don't need reason, don't need rhyme.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

and heaven isn't too far away...

and hairspray and mascara aren't too far from THIS...

[Sun Tzu]

I'm equally irked by anyone who claims they know X to be true under the umbrella of religion. I subscribe to the Socrates belief system when it comes to the spiritual world.

I know one thing, that I know nothing.

I have a lot of thoughts, ideas, and theories, but the folks that claim to have an absolute knowledge of any one thing (or the lack of any one thing), and then call you a douche for disagreeing/not sharing that belief with them? Not my favorite people.

[fortheglory]

I would like to think I am going to heaven, but I know I don't always do the right things in life...mainly because I have a drinking problem. Therefore I feel my line with god and to the holy spirit is often disrupted. I believe in god (and Jesus for that matter) with all of my heart. They say you can't get to heaven on good deeds alone. Well I know if that's the qualification (all good deeds) I'm in big trouble. I know once I really stop drinking as much, I'll be a better person in that regard though. I used to be, but somehow when drinking gets the best of you, It can make you into a person you never were. Anyway, I've been doing a better job of laying off the sauce lately, so hopefully things will turn around in my spiritual life as well. Making a big move from the northeast to South Carolina, so I am looking forward to a new chapter in life...sometimes getting stuck in a rut can be the worst thing for you physically, mentally and spiritually. I think once I turn the page on my life, it will help me to get back to me being me...which spiritually is a good thing.

[AENeuman]

The shift to an eternal reward for faith was perhaps the most brilliant and successful move by the early Christians. Nearly every religion/cult since has mimicked this approach. So much so one could argue that the age of nations and political theories came out of the void left by the ancient utopian religions.

Before, faith in Yahweh or Zeus or Ra was put to an often immediate an unsuccessful test. By embracing the suffering now, Christianity was able to prevent proof that theirs was not the best god.

Where this questions gets difficult theologically is: is the personal decision to believe in order to reap the eternal reward selfish, and thus immoral?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I believe there has to be more out there. Is it what we have been described through the Bible? Probably not exactly.

Getting down to a basicness, we tend to paint God to be basically a big, mystical human male with feelings, thoughtfulness and the caring of a human. How can we really know what God thinks, feels and cares about? We are not God. I think that any superior being/entity would be more likely to have an attitude that may be a bit like we view other species. Look at an ant farm. Do you find it interesting how they handle life together, or do you look at each individual? That's the only way I can explain to myself how extremely fucked up things happen to innocent people. It's more interesting to see how the society as a whole handles things than getting down & influencing/stopping individuals.

As for the Bible, I see that more as a tool of man. Is it the absolute word of God? Well, it is a collection chosen by men. The ignored some books & anointed others as the word of God. A good handbook to live by? Sure. Could God have influenced the authors? Sure. But man selected it and man is very good at doing things for their own benefit.

It's a tough subject to have absolutes. Many of faith will say that God exists absolutely, but that actually counters the idea of faith in the first place. Hold a brick in your hand. You don't have faith there is a brick there. You know it. It's there. Faith in God is a belief that there is something out there that you cannot put your hands on, see or hear.

Man on the other hand is something you can have no faith in, as they show you time and again how untrustworthy they can be. You can see that. It's real.

[Grover]

I am an Atheist.

I believe we are set into the ground and that's it. The neurons stop firing through the synpases. Without those electrical impulses we cease to be. We are merely the byproduct of evolution on one of the rare (as far as we know) planets that is in position to house some sort of intelligent life.

It should not matter if there is/isn't an afterlife. Folks should be concerned about living the best life they can. Follow those principles and the ducks will row up any way you'd like them. Deeply religious or an atheist like myself, be a good person... that's all I ask.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Grover

I am an Atheist.

I believe we are set into the ground and that's it. The neurons stop firing through the synpases. Without those electrical impulses we cease to be. We are merely the byproduct of evolution on one of the rare (as far as we know) planets that is in position to house some sort of intelligent life.

It should not matter if there is/isn't an afterlife. Folks should be concerned about living the best life they can. Follow those principles and the ducks will row up any way you'd like them. Deeply religious or an atheist like myself, be a good person... that's all I ask.

The "problems" that I see with the idea of Atheism is that there becomes no reason to even give a damn about anything. If there isn't anything out there after death then f*** it, take some a-holes with you.

That is why I am more in the agnostic camp. I don't know and neither does anyone else. We'll find out at some point. So for that reason live the best way possible and hope for the best when all is said and done.

The only thing that I can say with 100% certainty is that there are not 72 virgins waiting for achmasamad after blowing himself up.

[korme]

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The "problems" that I see with the idea of Atheism is that there becomes no reason to even give a damn about anything. If there isn't anything out there after death then f*** it, take some a-holes with you.

I don't see atheism that way at all - yes the fact there might not be a God might seem depressing, but its a possibility I live with.

My stance is purely from the perspective that I don't worry about what I was doing before I was born, therefore I'm not going to worry about what happens after I die - what will be will be.

If there is no God then I pass on my finger prints through my ripples of actions to others, especially my children and friends - that is a worthwhile purpose in itself imho.

[molson]

What always gets lost in these discussions to is that it's possible to believe either in god, a broader concept of spirituality, or just an deeply expansive universe that we haven't figured out yet AND ALSO not bank on any kind of literal afterlife where you see your dead relatives and pets. There's just so many more angles to it than that. You only need a second-grade education to scientifically "rule out" some of the concepts of organized religion if taken literally, and some very public atheists like Ricky Gervais and Bill Mahr never get past that and ridicule the beliefs and thoughts of millions (billions?) of people without getting past that second-grade level of debunking. Which I think is just silly, because obviously there's people far more brilliant than that who have thought about and theorized about these kinds of topics. That being said, of course you can also go further than that and make convincing, educated, and philosophical arguments for atheism, and those are valid as anyone else's belief about anything we don't know.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Additionally, what do you think your heaven/hell will look like, and why?

The C.S. Lewis quote makes sense to me: "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." If that's the case, then it follows that you're still the same once you pass on -- same sense of humor, etc. Just that in heaven, it's the perfect version of you. No fear, no jealousy, no hate. Just a being of love, if you will.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by molson

What always gets lost in these discussions to is that it's possible to believe either in god, a broader concept of spirituality, or just an deeply expansive universe that we haven't figured out yet AND ALSO not bank on any kind of literal afterlife where you see your dead relatives and pets. There's just so many more angles to it than that.

Being a computer geek I've always been quite fond of the simulation/computer alternative approach ..

Theory being -

(1) Computers are getting more powerful all the time.
(2) Current day computers can simulate small aspects of the universe
(3) If this continues one day computers will be able to simulate the universe

If this occurs then it is incredibly likely that there will be more than one computer doing this - thus the chance of any particular 'existence' being real and not a computer simulation is 1 (the real world) in 'x' million (number of simulations being run) ... or in other words chances are us and our entire universe isn't real and is just a computer simulation.

In that case 'God' very much exists, however how benign he is is debatable as he's whoever is in control of the simulation ....

[Toddiec]

I believe in heaven and hell simply because I believe it to be true. I believe I am going to heaven because I have given my life to God and He has promised it to me as a reward for doing so. I don't know exactly what it will be like or look like, I just know it is dramatically better than the alternative and that my wife will be there as well when she dies.

Everyone has their own beliefs and their own path to walk. I believe that my choice is the correct one for me and that is all I can effect. Do I wish that everyone followed the same beliefs I do? Absolutely. But God doesn't force us to believe in Him, it is our own personal choice. I believe that if God allows us a choice, then why would I ever think I should go against that and try to force others to choose my beliefs? Every day I try to walk my path and follow my beliefs and that is all I can do. I just hope that if God does decide to use me as an influence to direct others to Him that it isn't during one of the times when I screw up.

I believe that God has an open invitation to everyone to accept him, but at the end of the day everyone looks in the mirror and makes their own decisions when it comes to faith. Nobody can or should make the decision for you.

[CrimsonFox]

Another interesting sidequestion is...how do you view/explain/debunk demonic possession, ghosts, paranormal activity?

[bhlloy]

I would put myself in the category of agnostic/vaguely believing in a christian kinda god, I was raised very strict evangelical and there are a number of things with that teaching I have a hard time with.

One thing I pretty strongly don't believe in (and I don't mean to sound arrogant here - I know that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what I believe in if it's true ) is a concept of a Hell. I could probably write for pages on this but if we start with god is love, and god wants people to be saved and spend eternity with him, but if you don't believe in this pieced together book from two thousand years ago and some version of man's interpretation of it you're going to burn in eternal damnation, well that makes no sense to me. And that's very simplistic, but what about theological questions like the guy in the rainforest who has never heard about the Bible? What about infants or children who may or may not have the comprehension to understand? What if I've heard the message a couple of times but it was a really crappy preacher or a heretic and I dismiss it out of hand? And that's even before we get into predestination, which boggles my tiny little mind.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I'm equally irked by anyone who claims they know X to be true under the umbrella of religion. I subscribe to the Socrates belief system when it comes to the spiritual world.

I know one thing, that I know nothing.

All this makes perfect sense ... if Jesus wasn't who he claimed to be - "Before Abraham was, I AM" - in other words, the God of Exodus and Genesis, the Creator of the universe.

But if he really is that, then ... I guess he would know, wouldn't he?

I believe what I believe about heaven, hell, the afterlife, etc., because I believe Jesus is who he said he was. And in this case, he is the one and only person in all of history who I can't be irked about saying he knows all truth ... because he would.

Ultimately, all of Christianity hinges on this point. Not the behavior and misbehavior of the church through the centuries, not the errors within or the inerrancy of the Bible, not even whether Christianity as a religion makes sense - but is Jesus the one and only God and creator of the universe or not?

I believe he is. Therefore, what he taught about heaven and hell, I take as truth. Because he'd be the only person in all of history supremely qualified to speak on the subject.

[ISiddiqui]

My view of Heaven and Hell is slightly more "nuanced" than simply the evangelical Christian view of them being two different spheres - one with all the good and one with all the bad (I saw 'evangelical' there because most mainline Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox views on both places are far more nuanced that the stereotype that all Christians believe in the evangelical view).

Heaven is the sphere in which God lives. It's God's plane of existence. In Celtic Christianity, there is a concept of 'thin places' - basically Heaven is 3 feet away from Earth but in some parts there are thin places where Heaven and Earth are even closer (and miraculous things happen). I see Heaven in that way - it exists beyond but right beside Earth, as if a cosmic curtain is drawn. And God remains there, though likes to lift the curtain from time to time (and is constantly speaking to us and beckoning to us - directly to our souls).

However, I also know that Jesus speaks of the resurrection of the dead, as Jesus was the firstfruits of the resurrection - and Jesus wasn't resurrected as a spirit. He had a body; it was touched by Thomas to show it to be flesh and blood. The Earthly journey had an effect - as the scars of His life were carried through into Jesus's resurrected body. He had a body, but it was redeemed and reclaimed as God's perfected body (recall in Genesis that humans are both body and spirit - man does not exist without either the clay or the breath of God). Therefore to claim that we are merely spirits are missing the mark, IMO.

I agree with N.T. Wright (former Anglican Bishop of Durham and New Testament Theologian) that our final destination is as resurrected bodies in a New Heaven and New Earth at the end of time (Revelations 21).

Therefore if anything, a disembodied soul existence in Heaven is simply a holding place and we need to wait for 'life after life after death' (a term Wright coined).

As for Hell, that's more interesting. Catholic theology holds (at least today) that Hell is simply separation from God's love & that is the eternal torment, not fire and brimstone.

However, tradition teaches that Jesus descended into Hell on Holy Saturday to clear it out. And I believe that if any plane of Hell existed, it remains cleared out this day - only holding in the Devil and any demons (though the Devil, aka the Accuser in Hebrew, can still implant thoughts in our heads to make us doubt ourselves and not work in the ways God wants us to, in order to cause pain and misery on Earth and prevent us from preparing for the Kingdom - when Jesus comes again to completely establish the Kingdom He started on his resurrection).

I have thought, back and forth, about perhaps there is instead a Purgatory, where the sins of those on Earth are burned away though judgement and reflection before being fully admitted into the Kingdom where no sin resides. Though I'm tending towards abandonment of such ideas.

But in the end, who on Earth is really to know. My path is just to work for God's purposes and prepare the way for His final Kingdom by working for love and grace.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Toddiec

I believe in heaven and hell simply because I believe it to be true. I believe I am going to heaven because I have given my life to God and He has promised it to me as a reward for doing so. I don't know exactly what it will be like or look like, I just know it is dramatically better than the alternative and that my wife will be there as well when she dies.

What if something happens to you and your wife remarries? Will dude be waiting in Heaven for you as well? Will there be some hot man-woman-man action going on?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

What if something happens to you and your wife remarries? Will dude be waiting in Heaven for you as well? Will there be some hot man-woman-man action going on?

I think the concept is that much of the physical side of things and jealousy etc. will be absent in Heaven - more spiritual stuff etc.

Personally I'm intrigued by the way Jesus is mentioned in the vast majority of remaining religions in the world and he does appear to have had a huge influence on the world, more so than any other person .... that being said I think he'd be very disappointed by 'Christianity' today as I personally don't feel its what was intended (looking at the Jesus in the bible embracing the outcasts, hated races, prostitutes etc. ... and then how many Christians persecute gay people and vote against looking after the less fortunate in society).

Originally Posted by Ghandi

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”

[panerd]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The "problems" that I see with the idea of Atheism is that there becomes no reason to even give a damn about anything. If there isn't anything out there after death then f*** it, take some a-holes with you.
.

Sounds more like a description of militant religious people than atheists. An atheist would value that you have one life to live and no afterlife waiting to reward you for a blaze of glory wouldn't they?

[MacroGuru]

I usually stay out of debates of religion unless there is some sort of bashing going on. I come from a background of being raised Roman Catholic, converting to Mormonism at the age of 18 and then straying from the religion due to me having issues with the Word of Wisdom and how and why it (The word of wisdom) was created.

As for my beliefs, I will leave at this. There is a heaven(s), and there is a hell (Spiritual Prison) where you go is how you live your life and how you choose to live it.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by revrew

I believe what I believe about heaven, hell, the afterlife, etc., because I believe Jesus is who he said he was. And in this case, he is the one and only person in all of history who I can't be irked about saying he knows all truth ... because he would.

...

I believe he is. Therefore, what he taught about heaven and hell, I take as truth. Because he'd be the only person in all of history supremely qualified to speak on the subject.

Understood. Now, correct me if I'm wrong here (I may very well be), but aren't there two things that are slightly off about the whole "Jesus is who he said he was" idea?

1.) Wasn't the bible written several generations after Jesus had died? Wouldn't this eliminate any authenticity to supposed eye witness accounts?

2.) Weren't there countless "saviors" selling themselves during the years that Jesus lived? If so, why is this bearded, skinny fellow the only one that was right, thereby making everyone else in the world wrong/crazy? I think what I'm getting at here is, with all of the religions out there...why is Christianity "right" in your eyes?

Thanks for taking the time out to respond, btw.

[Blackadar]

I dunno. I'll find out someday.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

1.) Wasn't the bible written several generations after Jesus had died? Wouldn't this eliminate any authenticity to supposed eye witness accounts?

How long is a "generation" (I'm not entirely sure). However, Paul's letters were written from the late 30s AD until 50s AD and the Gospel texts were written between 70-95 AD.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Understood. Now, correct me if I'm wrong here (I may very well be), but aren't there two things that are slightly off about the whole "Jesus is who he said he was" idea?

1.) Wasn't the bible written several generations after Jesus had died? Wouldn't this eliminate any authenticity to supposed eye witness accounts?

2.) Weren't there countless "saviors" selling themselves during the years that Jesus lived? If so, why is this bearded, skinny fellow the only one that was right, thereby making everyone else in the world wrong/crazy? I think what I'm getting at here is, with all of the religions out there...why is Christianity "right" in your eyes?

Thanks for taking the time out to respond, btw.

1. No. The books of Matthew and John were written by eyewitnesses, and Luke, by a man who interviewed the eyewitnesses. Most of the remaining books were written by Paul, a man who met and knew the eyewitnesses, from roughly 50-60 A.D. Hebrews is a little more iffy, but the final books of the New Testament - those of Revelation - were written near the year 100, by the last surviving disciple, John, who lived until roughly 103.

I know there are scholars who have tried desperately to convince the world the New Testament wasn't written until decades after the original witnesses were dead, but they are, frankly, misled at best and misleading at worst.

2. Yes, there were and have been many false Messiahs, including others during Jesus' day. The Jewish leaders at the time even argued, "If this guy wasn't of God, he'll just fade away like all the others." Of course, he hasn't faded away, as hundreds of generation since have continued to testify that his words, his teachings, his presence is true.

But the most significant evidence of his divinity was his outrageous claim that he would be killed, then rise from the dead 3 days later. Then ... he did it. No other Messiah has demonstrated the power over life and death that Jesus demonstrated first with Lazarus, then with himself. That stunning claim, IMO, is the linchpin to all religious discussion everywhere: "If Jesus really did do that ... what are YOU going to believe about it?"

And no problem replying to earnest questions about my faith. I actually enjoy the discussions, when they're civil and thoughtful.

[BrianD]

I have long been of the belief that spirituality is something that has to come from within and that organized religions are mostly well-meaning, but flawed organizations. I think they are flawed because of imperfect humans trying to organize something that is beyond their abilities.

The Christian Bible is the only holy book I have read to any great extent, but I see all kinds of human (non-divine) aspects in the book. It very much reads to me like people trying to understand the world they live in and ascribing the unknown to God. The rules and the rituals read like a series of trial-and-error tests where anything that is successful must be approved by God. They may get some things right, but I believe that they are way over-complicating things.

I don't believe that Heaven and Hell exist, but I also don't believe that they need to exist. If this life is all we have, then it makes sense to live it well and try to help others to live their lives well. Peace and harmony are good for all, and I find it much more noble to want peace and harmony for all without the threat of Hell hanging over us.

[spleen1015]

I don't know. I think I am pretty ignorant about religion, but here is my take on it.

I don't know if there is a deity of any sort out there. I think religion was created to give humans a reason for living. In some cases, I think they were created to give humans hope of some kind.

For example, I think Moses created a lot of the message he said come from God to give his people something to believe it and thus they would find back against their suppression.

I think we as humans need to feel like we are living for something. So, the idea of living a good life gets you into heaven gives us something to live for.

I've asked some of my religions friends about this sort of thing before. If I were to live a good life, never commit any sins against God's will but never believe there is a God, would I get into heaven. They all tell me that I wouldn't since I never believed in God. Well, that to me is bullshit. God is supposed to be perfect, right? So, if I don't get into heaven because I don't believe in him but I did everything else right, then that sounds awfully arrogant to me and I don't think God can be arrogant can he?

I also believe that if I started my own religion today that worships potatoes, in 2 thousands years I could have half the world worshiping potatoes.

So, me answer to the original question is 'I don't know'. Anyone who thinks they can answer any other way, IMO is delusional.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

So, me answer to the original question is 'I don't know'. Anyone who thinks they can answer any other way, IMO is delusional.

See my first post in this thread. I'd agree with you completely, unless, of course, that someone was actually God. Then ... well, then I suppose that person could answer another way.

[Lonnie]

get that corn outta my face!

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by revrew

1. No. The books of Matthew and John were written by eyewitnesses, and Luke, by a man who interviewed the eyewitnesses. Most of the remaining books were written by Paul, a man who met and knew the eyewitnesses, from roughly 50-60 A.D. Hebrews is a little more iffy, but the final books of the New Testament - those of Revelation - were written near the year 100, by the last surviving disciple, John, who lived until roughly 103.

This to me isn't frankly reassuring ...

This still indicates that they were written a huge amount of time after the fact, this would tend to indicate a definite chance of inaccuracy and rose tinted glasses coming into play generally in the writings.

(if you doubt this - consider any work project you did a year or more ago and then discuss it with a colleague who also worked upon it ... you'll find the details of it are remembered differently between the two of you, especially regarding areas where you were have an emotional connection or were passionate about)

I know there are scholars who have tried desperately to convince the world the New Testament wasn't written until decades after the original witnesses were dead, but they are, frankly, misled at best and misleading at worst.

This while stated as 'fact' isn't proven one way or another - its 'faith' surely as no one knows who really wrote the biblical texts or when (even the Gospels attributed to various people aren't wholly proven to be theirs surely because its impossible to do so really).

I'm not stating you're incorrect - however I do dispute that your statement is provable.

But the most significant evidence of his divinity was his outrageous claim that he would be killed, then rise from the dead 3 days later. Then ... he did it. No other Messiah has demonstrated the power over life and death that Jesus demonstrated first with Lazarus, then with himself. That stunning claim, IMO, is the linchpin to all religious discussion everywhere: "If Jesus really did do that ... what are YOU going to believe about it?"

My standard problem with the 'rising from the dead' is purely that people believe what they want to believe ... even believing they've seen things or met people.

For recent similar situations consider how many times Elvis has been reported wandering around .. yes I don't think that many people consider him a Messiah