Headhunted... flattered... and confused

Icy · 11-29-2012, 01:40 PM

I'm using this thread both as self therapy and asking advice for those with similar experiences.

Background:

I have been working for 10+ years on my own, for my own company and sometimes as freelancer.

A year ago I was approached by the company that was my best customer to join them, as in 6 months i made their sales volume to double (they had the technology and product, and i had the contacts and experience to promote it, was not that hard). It was a great offer, pretty high salary, big and easy to reach (imho) bonus, and a very small % of the company, with a value if we sell them right now of mid $XXX,XXX. It also allowed me to work remotely, just going to the main office once per week or so. The dream job offer so i took it.

I have been happily working with them for a year, the ambience is awesome, the personal relationship with the owners, and the team under my supervision is incredible, and they talk to me like their partner, not an employee, taking big part in the company decisions.

During that time the company growth both in sales volume and personal has been incredible and still shows a very high potential. Again the dream job.

Headhunted:

A few of days ago i get a random guy contacting me in a known business social network about a potential job offer. At first I even thought it was a joke or scam, so I just politely told him i had a job already and no desire to change.

Then i received another message from him, telling me that it was a very lucrative offer in the same sector, to please let him to phone call me about it. I googled about the guy and the company he is working for and discovered it is a known headhunters company and he has also written articles about it etc, so the guy was legit... and i bite and gave him my phone.

Today i got the call, he started saying that he knew i had another job and not looking into moving, etc but that he had a very good offer in behalf another company, and then he launched the bomb.

First the salary, that is double of what i'm getting right now, more than i could ever think i could earn and over the average of a similar job. Then the variable bonus, 3x the salary. The cons are that i would need to relocate to a major city in another country in Europe.

I was obviously shocked, he asked me if i thought it was a good salary and if he could proceed to give me more details. I bite again and said yes, continue.

Then the second bomb, the company is my current biggest rival company, let's say they have been the top one for a while but mine is catching up specially since i joined, and that is probably what caught their attention.

At that point, my initial reaction was ok, no need to continue, i appreciate the offer, say thanks in my behalf to the company owners, but i'm not moving to my rival company.

He answered that he was surprised about my integrity and loyalty (as kissing probably), and that what would be the salary that would need to forget about my feelings.

I took a deep breather, lots of feelings crossed my mind in those few seconds, but again answered that it was not about money, but about being loyal to them and specially to myself.

He looked surprised, but insisted that i should at least let them to explain me the offer and to negotiate, they can pay me the plane, hotel etc to sit with them and discuss, of course under total privacy.

Then i told him about another big problem besides loyalty, i'm going to be a dad for third time anytime in the next month, so relocating would be a big issue by now. He answered that is not a problem, they can wait 4 to 6 months for me to move there.

I told him that I need to think about that meeting, but that by now my answer is no. He asked if the company owner could phone me at least, and i said, ok, he can.

Flattered... and confused

Now i'm totally confused, the offer for sure flattens me, my ego is sky rocketing, the salary and bonus are incredible, enough to not to have to work after a few years if i wanted, and I'm just 37 years old.

On the other hand, i have never in my live betrayed anybody, for any reason, and for sure not for money. If i leave my current company to go to the rival one, it would be a massive hit for them, both personal and business wise.

Of course the rival company knows it, so this would be a double hit, first (or maybe second) to hire me and my proven results, second (and probably first) to slow my current company growth.

I have not talked to my wife yet, as i said, relocating to another country could be a big issue for her (not for me at all). She likes this new city as we have been there for tourism, they would pay us a house, find school for kids etc but it's far from her family and friends, and latin women are all about family and friends.

Also I love living in Spain, the weather, the food, etc (and in this other country it rains a lot you can guess which one it is) but again relocating to another country could enrich my life a lot, my kids would learn that language etc, so i in fact i think i would like the experience.

Anyway for the money it is and with some time working on it, i think my wife would end agreeing to relocating if needed, that wouldn't be the #1 issue.

Again leaving my current company to go to the rival one uff... that is the top issue for me. Also as i said i love working in this company, and the future looks good, while this offer maybe means that the rivals are falling down and this is an step trying to reverse things.

Today I have been reading a lot about headhunters, the whole process, etc and this guy is following "the book" step by step, and has been able to get from me the response headhunters look for with those steps.

It makes me think where are the catches, what is the real purpose of this offer, maybe just to destabilize me or my current company? or do they really want me? Should I at least listen to their offer? visit their city and offices to see if i like it? or just stop it right now before more damage is done?

If i reject it, as i think i'm going to, should i talk about it with my current company owners? maybe i can get a raise or scare them a bit so they value me even more? or to show them how loyal i am? or would that damage for ever my good relationship with them even if i get that raise as it means i'm a mercenary from that moment?

Am i just too used to working on my own so i don't know how the business works at this level? is this common?

Any of you had a similar experience?

I know this is something i'm going to remember my whole life, either for the good or the bad, whatever decision i en taking.

Thanks for reading, just writing this has helped me a lot already

MacroGuru · 11-29-2012, 01:50 PM

Icy,

I want to respond, but I have to head out to a client meeting. I will respond tonight for you, but I have been in your situation before.

finketr · 11-29-2012, 01:59 PM

Icy,

Family comes first. If your wife (and kids) cannot stand where you will end up, then don't move.

I totally get the loyalty to the company you work for and don't forget that you also apparently own a slice of the company you work for. How would that be resolved? Do you have a non-compete clause if you leave your current company? How stable is your current company?

I totally understand about the Latin women and family and friends. My wife is from Peru and talks to her parents nearly every day. This is a concept I cannot imagine in my relationship with my parents.

Skype is a wonderful product.

Will the new company allow you to continue to telecommute? Maybe you can make a 2-3 day trip every other week to the new office? Granted this is probably not ideal in a new company as you need to get to know the people and politics of the new company. What's the cost of living in the new city?

Just my first thoughts.

tim

kcchief19 · 11-29-2012, 02:04 PM

I understand all your feelings ranging from flattered to confused. That's perfectly normal.

First thing I will say is is the thing I say to any of my employees, co-workers or friends looking to make a career move -- the worst reason to take a job is money. Mental health and happiness are much more important than salary. If you have your dream job, what are the chances that you can improve on your dream job? Your happiness, your wife and your family should all come before the money.

That said, exploring a change isn't disloyal. The only reason I could offer you for not hearing the offer out to its conclusion and meeting with them is if you feel it can't be done discretely and your current employer would fire you immediately if they found out. Doesn't sound like that's the case.

If you meet with the company and get an offer and feel like it's something you want to do, the loyal thing to do is go to your current employer and give them an opportunity to keep you. If you love your job as much as it sounds, it seems like they wouldn't have to match the offer to keep you. If they offered you a bump in salary and ownership, would you take that and stay? That's as much loyalty as any company can ask.

Whatever you decide to do, don't feel bad about considering it. If your current employer likes you as much as it sounds, they would think you would be crazy not to listen. I bet the only think they want is a chance to keep you. But from a negotiation stand point, I wouldn't say anything until you have a firm offer in hand.

GrantDawg · 11-29-2012, 02:14 PM

You know more about your situation, and your work climate, but I will give you one bit of warning. If this company feels you are important enough to your current company to make you such a huge offer, they will have no qualms about sabotaging your relationship with your current company. In others words, if they can't get you they'll be just as happy to get fired. If you really aren't interested, I'd let my company know what has happened. If they learned you discussed leaving, it could get ugly.

gstelmack · 11-29-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

You know more about your situation, and your work climate, but I will give you one bit of warning. If this company feels you are important enough to your current company to make you such a huge offer, they will have no qualms about sabotaging your relationship with your current company. In others words, if they can't get you they'll be just as happy to get fired. If you really aren't interested, I'd let my company know what has happened. If they learned you discussed leaving, it could get ugly.

My thought as well, along with security at the new company. They might hire you away, get you to move, then just let you go, all to sabotage the old company.

Suburban Rhythm · 11-29-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

You know more about your situation, and your work climate, but I will give you one bit of warning. If this company feels you are important enough to your current company to make you such a huge offer, they will have no qualms about sabotaging your relationship with your current company. In others words, if they can't get you they'll be just as happy to get fired. If you really aren't interested, I'd let my company know what has happened. If they learned you discussed leaving, it could get ugly.

Not the exact words, but I was thinking similar.

If you have the relationship with the current employer you described above, maybe an up front "warning" is in order? Tell them what happened, tell them that while you are thrilled with your current arrangements, you feel like you need to at least hear out everything the other employer has to say.

Again, if the current relationship is as strong as you've described above, they should be grateful you put everything on the table, rather than springing it on them later. And they should trust that, while you are listening to offer #2, you wouldn't up and leave them immediately, or without discussing the full offer with them.

jeff061 · 11-29-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

My thought as well, along with security at the new company. They might hire you away, get you to move, then just let you go, all to sabotage the old company.

This is what I was thinking.

jeff061 · 11-29-2012, 02:28 PM

I don't know where you are financially right now, but it sounds like you do pretty well. I wouldn't sabotage a real nice spot for some gravy dollars.

But like I said, I don't know your situation.

spleen1015 · 11-29-2012, 02:39 PM

I don't have any advice that would be any different than what you've already gotten.

I congratulate you on all of it though!!

jeff061 · 11-29-2012, 02:46 PM

For what it's worth I had a client willing to double my base pay, with a 100-300 percent performance based yearly bonus on top of that(this is Wall Street folks, it was an eye opener).

I had no interest. I'd have to relocate, the company was very high pressure with excessive hours. The extra money wasn't worth it, I'm happy where I am.

BYU 14 · 11-29-2012, 02:48 PM

Seems like you have something most people never get to enjoy. A great job that makes you happy, affords you a comfortable living and a peace of mind that is invaluable.

It was mentioned by others, but money should never be the reason. money comes and goes, but if you lose the other things that make your life complete they are hard to replace and sometimes can not be replaced.

I took a 35K per year pay cut almost 5 years ago because the job I had was destroying me emotionally and physically. People thought I was crazy, but I am happy now, no stress, also get to work remote 4 days a week and feel like respected and appreciated by my current company. I have made up most of the salary lost in the past 5 years and am comfortable again after a year or so of living a little tighter then I was used to, but I wouldn't do any different.

Two other things, think about the way this company is going about getting you? I know it really isn't unethical, but it seems they are driven by more than loyalty and what happens to you if they find another 'hotshot' down the road. Will they have your back ike you current employer does?

I would also tell your current employer if you don't plan on leaving. It will increase your standing in their eyes even more and prove your loyalty and integrity, two things that are highly valued in business. I believe doing so will make your current job even more enjoyable.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

sterlingice · 11-29-2012, 03:33 PM

I would say "I don't envy you" but, yeah, in a way I do a little

Good luck with what you decide but from the way you laid it out, it sounds like your current situation is too good to give up.

SI

MacroGuru · 11-29-2012, 03:46 PM

Icy,

Alright, back from my client meeting and ready to relay thoughts.

I have been approached by headhunters before, jumped at one offer due to the increase in pay, went to the competition. I was lured by 2 things, the position and the pay increase. It turned into a horrible situation pretty quickly, I burnt bridges at the company I had left and I couldn't go back if I tried. It ended up forcing me to take a job traveling again and it's why I went back out on the road.

Que the 2nd time (Yeah I should have learned right). This time it wasn't for a competitor, it was a jump this ship for a chance at growing a company and making a ton of $. I moved my family across the country for this, paid a lot of money out of pocket and 9 months later I was without a job as the investors asked all partners to not take a paycheck and told them where to go, I needed $ to survive. I ended back at the company I had left and back out on the road.

The first decision didn't hurt me as much as the last one. I think if I would have stayed in Utah, things would have panned out one way or the other but the stress of everything blew my life up. 5 years later and I am still picking up the pieces but it is slowly coming back together.

I will basically tell you this, if you are happy and paid well where you are at, stay...money isn't everything and I will testify to that. On top of that, I will also suggest you going into your current employer and let them know you were approached by a headhunter, and that when everything came out, it was the rival trying to snatch you and you told them where to go...loyalty at times is rewarded and looked at strongly, and I think it will be with where you are at.

tyketime · 11-29-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

...I have been happily working with them for a year, the ambience is awesome, the personal relationship with the owners, and the team under my supervision is incredible, and they talk to me like their partner, not an employee, taking big part in the company decisions.

First and foremost - THIS! Everything else must be carefully considered based on what you know you have, not what might be...

I agree that if you decide to take the offer, do NOT take it for the money. As others have said, it will only go so far towards you & your family's happiness. Take the other offer if it will provide you a different experience that will benefit you professionally and personally.

At the end of the day, the decision needs to be made on what is best for you & your family. Not for the money. Not for the loyalty.

stevew · 11-29-2012, 06:35 PM

Congrats on the imminent expansion of your family.

cartman · 11-29-2012, 07:15 PM

Moving from where you are now to the place where it always rains would be around a doubling or tripling of your living expenses, so the financial gains would be minimal. If my company wasn't paying for my room and board when I was living there, no way I would have done it out of my own pocket. £800/week for a 1 bedroom apartment? No thank you.

SteveMax58 · 11-29-2012, 07:42 PM

Congrats on the highly desirable position of having a competitor not only recognize you for your impact, but to also take action to pry you away & bring you aboard.

While its impossible to know your situation & circumstances, as well as what type of company/people the competitors are....I have to say that such a lucrative offer would give me serious pause as to their intentions & how ruthless they might be. Perhaps they truly see you as a critical need for them but take an honest stock of your situation. I dont know if your line of work is very niche with only a few people/companies or very large with a lot of people/companies in it...but I think my decision to pursue it further would take that into account as you never want to burn 1 of the only 2 or 3 bridges available to you if things don't go well with the new company.

I do think its worthwhile to mention to your current employer. The approach to it might depend on your relationship with them & how you normally interact. Such as...you could bring it up as a "you are never going to guess what happened to me" type of approach if you are accustomed to being informal & half-joking. Or if its a more professional approach, you could simply ask for a minute to discuss something & explain what happened. You could also play up your loyalty a bit here by saying "and guess how much they said they would compensate me? can you believe that? we must have them right where we want them"...that would also put a bug in their mind on re-evaluating what your worth to them is & make them panic at the shear thought of you leaving. But if your relationship is as good as you say it is (or as I'm interpreting), I dont think I would broach the subject of your compensation(with your current company) unless you truly feel like you are underpaid. If thats the case though, I'd create an"office meme" approach about how you are struggling because of your pay (i.e. "I have to go grab lunch from the dumpster today" or "I can't afford to pay attention"...whatever works for you but something along those lines).

But if curiosity gets the better of you as its certainly eye-opening money & opportunity/recognition....make sure you are guaranteed some amount of money or time or something should you jump ship. You should also have an attorney (maybe 2 or 3 for that matter) review whatever arrangement you come to. And realize that 2 things will likely happen....1) you will never rekindle the situation you have now. Its possible to go back, get the same/better money, etc. depending on how things pan out & how you leave off with your current company but you can never go back to the way things were. 2) the new company, if they are right about your value to them, may overtake your old company & put them out of business or into irrelevance anyway. This might leave you with 1 less industry option if you help eliminate the competition (and perhaps the only competition).

cadmus2166 · 11-29-2012, 08:00 PM

My personal take on the situation is that if you are already at your dream job, you are able to support your family, and everyone is happy with the way things are, why are you even considering this? I think you have made your own argument for yourself staying with your current job.

bhlloy · 11-29-2012, 08:20 PM

Yeah, I generally agree with the sentiment here. Assuming you are comfortable now I don't know if there's an amount of money that I'd be willing to trade for the chance that they aren't as interested in you as they are in hurting your current employer and the chance you might be looking for another job down the road and wishing for your old job back. Especially if they are throwing around silly money for the position.

Balldog · 11-29-2012, 08:24 PM

If you like where you at I would stay. The grass isn't always greener. If I were in your shoes I would consider letting your immediate boss know, perhaps over lunch. You could play this into a bigger salary/bonus at your current company. Could back fire though....

Izulde · 11-29-2012, 08:46 PM

I would be one of those who let your current company be aware of the situation and what happened. It's better that they know what's going on, rather than, as someone else pointed out, running the risk of the competition leaking this to your company and sabotaging your relationship with you current company.

Agreed with those that if this is your dream job and things are as good there as you say, I would definitely stay. There really is no price for happiness and peace of mind you currently have, and you would have to start life all over again.

Desnudo · 11-29-2012, 08:58 PM

You know studies show that money is related to job happiness, peaking at about 400-450k (us). If you're talking about a life changing amount where you can retire in a few years I would absolutely consider it even if it means more stress in the short term.

jeff061 · 11-29-2012, 09:04 PM

Pretty sure I've read similar studies that peak at 75-100k, depending on where you live.

Desnudo · 11-29-2012, 09:15 PM

It doesn't peak - that's the threshold to cross to be happy.

Your marginal return after that is lower

How Your Salary Level Affects Your Happiness - Forbes

Icy · 11-30-2012, 05:11 AM

Thanks for your advice guys, i really appreciate it and has been of a big help.

After taking with my wife and consulting the pillow later, I have decided to not to take it and not even to keep toying with the offer or with the headhunter.

As i said, I love my current job, how valued I am by my current company, the close relationship (friendship i would say) with the main owners, taking a big part in the strategic decision for the company like if my share % was same as the main owners. Having their full confidence, that means full freedom on doing what i think is for the good of the company no matter the cost, working on a no set schedule, telecommuting, can take days/hours off when i want (as long as nothing important is needed that day), etc.

The company is also growing a lot as i said before (it's in the mobile internet marketing/publishing/apps sector, that is booming), and has big expansion plans, that have me involved. We have the funds and team to keep growing without problems for a while and in fact we have been hiring people non stop for the last year. So in resume, it doesn't look that i'm going to be jobless in the short term, but you never know in the online industry and this new bubble.

Then there is also the move to another country and city (yeah it was London, UK no hard to guess). The price of living there would also be way higher than in Spain, I have not talked about it as this was just an initial contact, but I guess I would have to go to the office daily, that could mean transport costs, plus lack of the freedom i have now.

Then besides the money, would be my family happiness specially my wife's, as my kid is just 5 years old and the new one will be born in a month, so it wouldn't be a problem for them to move or maybe even a good thing to learn another language. As I said and Finketr confirmed, latin women in general are all about the family and friends, mine calls and/or meet her parents and friends every day and is very social, so moving to another city far from them, taking care of two small kids while i'm the whole day away working, in a country with very bad weather compared to Spain, that means less life outside home, would be far from ideal.

As i re-read what i just wrote, i'm thinking about why did i even consider it. The only incentive is higher salary, but i'm paid well enough now and anyway we are not big expenders, in fact 2/3 of my current salary is saved every month as we have a pretty standard mid class life and are happy with it.

I guess I understand now a question I always made myself about sport players, free agency etc, (with the huge differences of course). I always asked myself, why do they move to another team for more money when they earn more already that can expend ever in the lives? and the answer i guess is, that earnings could be sometimes looked just at the high scores or virtual coins when you play games, the higher the better you think you are even if you really don't need them.

So this morning i sent an email to the headhunter (he phoned me with hidden number, so i can't return the call) telling him on a very polite way to let the doors open for the future, that i had no interest on the position and that the main reason was loyalty and that i'm enjoying my position in that company, so no need to offer me more money as that won't be the deciding factor nor i was trying to get a counter offer. I gave him thanks for contacting me, and to tell the company owners thanks in my name too, that they could call me if they wanted and i would talk out of respect, but that my answer would be the same i'm giving him.

I didn't say anything about the moving abroad issue, just in case in the future he calls my door again for this or another company and moving away is an option for us or just a must.

Scared with what you said and read online in this long little sleep night, about that they might try to unsettle me in my current company, I have also called my current company owners this morning and told the whole story like you guys suggested, "you know what happened yesterday? it proves we are growing and the competition is scared of us". They were shocked but at the same time thanked me big time for being straight, and started to talk me about more plans, the future they have for me and about how good i was for them and that the offer came because the competition has seen my value for them, that they really appreciate.

At last this has served as a warning and i feel they value me even more after this. Salary raise shouldn't be an issue in the future, in fact during the first negotiation when i joined them a year ago, they offered me more than my initial request as they thought it was low for the responsibilities i would have, and i have seen the same later in more job interviews for new personal where i have been involved, so it's not that they are trying to bargain their workers as this is an high competitive new business and workers with experience are hunted all the time as it has been just proved.

Thanks guys, hope i won't regret, it's been a really valuable experience to think about my current way of life and what do i value the most.

I will update this mini-dynasty if they counter offer, but my answer will be the same, family, happiness and freedom once you have the basic necessities covered (that are different for each individual), do not have any price.

PilotMan · 11-30-2012, 05:56 AM

Nice choice. We are all jealous of the opportunity to even have to make one. You did good, and congrats.

sterlingice · 11-30-2012, 07:37 AM

Nicely done

SI

DaddyTorgo · 11-30-2012, 08:04 AM

Sounds like you had your head on straight and handled it great Icy. Nicely done!

WSUCougar · 11-30-2012, 08:46 AM

Way to go, Icy. I think you made the right choice.

By the way, this scenario has all the trappings of It's A Wonderful Life, where Mr. Potter tries to lure Jimmy Stewart into his evil clutches.

Sun Tzu · 11-30-2012, 09:02 AM

Congrats on doing what makes you happy.

FWIW, I'm from the Silicon Valley, and loyalty is non-existent out here. In fact, people don't even expect you to be loyal to them, and if you jump ship from company to company every 18 months, it isn't even frowned upon. I know several VP's at very reputable companies...places everyone here has heard of and has likely used in the past week, that have worked at 3 different companies since 2008.

Re: Headhunters, I wouldn't judge this new company based on the aggressiveness of this headhunter. All recruiters (well, the good ones at least) are like this. They get minimal information from their employer - along the lines of "we like this guy, and we're willing to pay him $X for the right fit" and the recruiter then has the freedom to say anything outside of that.

If it were me, I would probably have taken the job. Enough money to retire in a few years? Living in Europe? What if this new job was *even better* than your job now? I should say that I've always been one to welcome change. In my line of work, stagnancy leads to bankruptcy. If you have any fear of change, you're only cheating yourself out of an even brighter future.

I'm in no position to judge you, and I'm not doing that here. I'm just giving you some insight on what things are like "where I come from." You had to make the decision that was best for you, and it sounds like you feel you did that. So...yay!

JPhillips · 11-30-2012, 09:04 AM

That sounds like the perfect ending for you.

Abe Sargent · 11-30-2012, 09:08 AM

Awesome!

Desnudo · 11-30-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Congrats on doing what makes you happy.

FWIW, I'm from the Silicon Valley, and loyalty is non-existent out here. In fact, people don't even expect you to be loyal to them, and if you jump ship from company to company every 18 months, it isn't even frowned upon. I know several VP's at very reputable companies...places everyone here has heard of and has likely used in the past week, that have worked at 3 different companies since 2008.

Re: Headhunters, I wouldn't judge this new company based on the aggressiveness of this headhunter. All recruiters (well, the good ones at least) are like this. They get minimal information from their employer - along the lines of "we like this guy, and we're willing to pay him $X for the right fit" and the recruiter then has the freedom to say anything outside of that.

If it were me, I would probably have taken the job. Enough money to retire in a few years? Living in Europe? What if this new job was *even better* than your job now? I should say that I've always been one to welcome change. In my line of work, stagnancy leads to bankruptcy. If you have any fear of change, you're only cheating yourself out of an even brighter future.

I'm in no position to judge you, and I'm not doing that here. I'm just giving you some insight on what things are like "where I come from." You had to make the decision that was best for you, and it sounds like you feel you did that. So...yay!

That's the point of view I'm coming from. I'll admit I'm envious that Icy is able to take such a well balanced perspective. I don't think that kind of loyalty exists in the US anymore.

BYU 14 · 11-30-2012, 09:45 AM

Think you made the right choice for sure and I am pretty sure your loyalty will pay dividends down the road.

Congrats!!

SteveMax58 · 11-30-2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

That's the point of view I'm coming from. I'll admit I'm envious that Icy is able to take such a well balanced perspective. I don't think that kind of loyalty exists in the US anymore.

I'm not sure its "pure loyalty" though really.

His current company provides him the right balance of work & life, flexibility, a place his family loves, and the career opportunity & salary he wants. Plus the owners are exceptional towards him & it is (presumably) important that he feels like a partial owner in decisions & strategy (if not also financially). So while loyalty might be the appearance here...its conditional loyalty just like any other relationship.

People dont (typically) stay with their spouse because of loyalty alone. Its conditional loyalty because they are treated the way they want & reciprocate...which continues to feed the relationship.

I say congrats to Icy for identifying & having the self-awareness to know what makes him happy. Sometimes the change is worth it, other times it is not. But change for the sake of change is a big reason people end up unhappy as they simply don't know what they want.

Icy · 11-30-2012, 10:04 AM

I see your points Sun Tzu and Desnudo.

I guess that besides loyalty, that might be just my issue as I have not been exposed to more aggressive practices as you have, and have never experienced it against me, so maybe i'm too "virgin", we have a big difference between USA and Europe, specially at the south of Europe, that is that USA is a huge country, with differences for sure from state to state, but a single country.

On the other hand, Europe is a weird mix of lot different countries, with totally different cultures, history, tradition and of course language (besides the economical union, i don't really see the point in "Europe" as an hypothetical country), so the moves from one country to another are not that common as it could be to move states in USA, where you at least speak the same language and more common things.

Then in South Europe it is even more extreme, as roots and the ties with family are too strong, so people usually change city once or even never in their whole life. For the same reason, loyalty feelings might be stronger here.

All that might change now with the huge crisis and the 30% unemployment rate we have in Spain now and similar numbers for Italy, Portugal and Greece, that is forcing families to split to find a way to survive.

In my case, to move to UK wouldn't be that big issue as I have been exposed to English speaking cultures for a long time, mainly due to my hobbies (see FOFC) and because i have been working on internet stuff since 1998.

If I were single instead of married and with kids, and the offer didn't come from a rival company but from a different sector of the same industry so I wouldn't have felt like betraying, I would have given it a longer thought and maybe i would have taken it to have a new experience in another country.

Having a family depending 100% on me, and having a confortable position already, my desire to take risks in my life is way lower.

Again now that i'm cold and seeing what i'm writing, i wonder how did i even consider it.

DaddyTorgo · 11-30-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

Again now that i'm cold and seeing what i'm writing, i wonder how did i even consider it.

You gotta consider everything in life...give it at least a good thought. Otherwise you never know what you could be missing.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 11-30-2012, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

Again now that i'm cold and seeing what i'm writing, i wonder how did i even consider it.

Oh, you should always consider it. Even if you don't entertain the offer, it can bode well within your current position when you prove your loyalty to a position. It also helps your own company to know that they need to be a bit more on their toes if they want to remain in a competitive position because the other side is always ready to deliver a solid body blow at any cost.

Galaxy · 11-30-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

I see your points Sun Tzu and Desnudo.

I guess that besides loyalty, that might be just my issue as I have not been exposed to more aggressive practices as you have, and have never experienced it against me, so maybe i'm too "virgin", we have a big difference between USA and Europe, specially at the south of Europe, that is that USA is a huge country, with differences for sure from state to state, but a single country.

On the other hand, Europe is a weird mix of lot different countries, with totally different cultures, history, tradition and of course language (besides the economical union, i don't really see the point in "Europe" as an hypothetical country), so the moves from one country to another are not that common as it could be to move states in USA, where you at least speak the same language and more common things.

Then in South Europe it is even more extreme, as roots and the ties with family are too strong, so people usually change city once or even never in their whole life. For the same reason, loyalty feelings might be stronger here.

All that might change now with the huge crisis and the 30% unemployment rate we have in Spain now and similar numbers for Italy, Portugal and Greece, that is forcing families to split to find a way to survive.

In my case, to move to UK wouldn't be that big issue as I have been exposed to English speaking cultures for a long time, mainly due to my hobbies (see FOFC) and because i have been working on internet stuff since 1998.

If I were single instead of married and with kids, and the offer didn't come from a rival company but from a different sector of the same industry so I wouldn't have felt like betraying, I would have given it a longer thought and maybe i would have taken it to have a new experience in another country.

Having a family depending 100% on me, and having a confortable position already, my desire to take risks in my life is way lower.

Again now that i'm cold and seeing what i'm writing, i wonder how did i even consider it.

Could your potential equity stake with the current company be a trump card in all this, depending on its valuation?

Icy · 11-30-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

You gotta consider everything in life...give it at least a good thought. Otherwise you never know what you could be missing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Oh, you should always consider it. Even if you don't entertain the offer, it can bode well within your current position when you prove your loyalty to a position. It also helps your own company to know that they need to be a bit more on their toes if they want to remain in a competitive position because the other side is always ready to deliver a solid body blow at any cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Could your potential equity stake with the current company be a trump card in all this, depending on its valuation?

Oh yes, what i meant was not that i shouldn't have listened to it, as you said it's a good thing for sure to be aware of new opportunities, and can lead to more recognition or salary at my current company.

What i meant is that despite that, now I know that i wouldn't have taken it for sure given my whole current situation, but at first i was considering it a bit just because the money and because my ego was boosted.

Icy · 11-30-2012, 11:05 AM

Another question, in case the other company owner doesn't call me, and I guess he wont, should i contact him just to say thanks? What about next time i meet with him in a business event? For sure i'll meet him at the GDC in San Francisco in March if not before.

Just crossed my mind that maybe the headhunter will tell him just whatever he wants to say, and not my real reasons for not taking the job, that could lead to misunderstandings or worse feelings that knowing my real reasons.

I have been reading a lot in the past 24 hours about how dirty could headhunters be, so i might be paranoid now.

Alf · 11-30-2012, 11:06 AM

London transportation sucks. That can ruin one's life.

SteveMax58 · 11-30-2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

Just crossed my mind that maybe the headhunter will tell him just whatever he wants to say, and not my real reasons for not taking the job, that could lead to misunderstandings or worse feelings that knowing my real reasons.

I'm sure there are always horror stories but I would find it hard to believe the HH would make up anything or purposely disparage your reasons or story. Not if he/she wants to maintain their reputation with (presumably) powerful people such as the competitor. This HH works in your industry & clearly should understand the potential fallout for him/her should you ever cross paths with this owner.

If the HH is as good as his clientele...then he/she should be smart enough not to BS around with them. Or if thats not a good enough reason...what benefit would the HH have for making up or disparaging you? Clearly the HH would also see you as a potential asset at some point as well.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 11-30-2012, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Clearly the HH would also see you as a potential asset at some point as well.

This. He's going to keep in good graces because he feels like he developed a good working relationship and that he might be able to hit you up again at some time in the future if another opportunity comes along.

In regards to the other owner, just be yourself. The 'keep your enemies closer' theory always plays well here and may even benefit your company at some point.

DaddyTorgo · 11-30-2012, 12:39 PM

Yeah - I wouldn't see a problem with mentioning to the other company owner the next time you see him at a conference or whatever, something along the lines of "I spoke with HH X about a position at your company...while I was (pick your adjective) to hear of your serious interest in me it wasn't the right move for me for several reasons: (list whatever you want) . Be polite and gracious about it, "kiss their butt" a little for thinking so highly of you (without putting yourself down and saying "i'm not worth it").

11-29-2012, 02:28 PM	#9
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	I don't know where you are financially right now, but it sounds like you do pretty well. I wouldn't sabotage a real nice spot for some gravy dollars. But like I said, I don't know your situation. __________________ Last edited by jeff061 : 11-29-2012 at 02:35 PM.

11-29-2012, 02:39 PM	#10
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	I don't have any advice that would be any different than what you've already gotten. I congratulate you on all of it though!! __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

11-29-2012, 02:46 PM	#11
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	For what it's worth I had a client willing to double my base pay, with a 100-300 percent performance based yearly bonus on top of that(this is Wall Street folks, it was an eye opener). I had no interest. I'd have to relocate, the company was very high pressure with excessive hours. The extra money wasn't worth it, I'm happy where I am. __________________

11-29-2012, 03:33 PM	#13
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	I would say "I don't envy you" but, yeah, in a way I do a little Good luck with what you decide but from the way you laid it out, it sounds like your current situation is too good to give up. SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

11-29-2012, 03:46 PM	#14
MacroGuru Coordinator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Utah	Icy, Alright, back from my client meeting and ready to relay thoughts. I have been approached by headhunters before, jumped at one offer due to the increase in pay, went to the competition. I was lured by 2 things, the position and the pay increase. It turned into a horrible situation pretty quickly, I burnt bridges at the company I had left and I couldn't go back if I tried. It ended up forcing me to take a job traveling again and it's why I went back out on the road. Que the 2nd time (Yeah I should have learned right). This time it wasn't for a competitor, it was a jump this ship for a chance at growing a company and making a ton of $. I moved my family across the country for this, paid a lot of money out of pocket and 9 months later I was without a job as the investors asked all partners to not take a paycheck and told them where to go, I needed $ to survive. I ended back at the company I had left and back out on the road. The first decision didn't hurt me as much as the last one. I think if I would have stayed in Utah, things would have panned out one way or the other but the stress of everything blew my life up. 5 years later and I am still picking up the pieces but it is slowly coming back together. I will basically tell you this, if you are happy and paid well where you are at, stay...money isn't everything and I will testify to that. On top of that, I will also suggest you going into your current employer and let them know you were approached by a headhunter, and that when everything came out, it was the rival trying to snatch you and you told them where to go...loyalty at times is rewarded and looked at strongly, and I think it will be with where you are at. __________________ "forgetting what is in the past, I strive for the future"

11-29-2012, 01:50 PM	#2
MacroGuru Coordinator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Utah	Icy, I want to respond, but I have to head out to a client meeting. I will respond tonight for you, but I have been in your situation before. __________________ "forgetting what is in the past, I strive for the future"

11-29-2012, 01:59 PM	#3
finketr College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inland Empire, PRC	Icy, Family comes first. If your wife (and kids) cannot stand where you will end up, then don't move. I totally get the loyalty to the company you work for and don't forget that you also apparently own a slice of the company you work for. How would that be resolved? Do you have a non-compete clause if you leave your current company? How stable is your current company? I totally understand about the Latin women and family and friends. My wife is from Peru and talks to her parents nearly every day. This is a concept I cannot imagine in my relationship with my parents. Skype is a wonderful product. Will the new company allow you to continue to telecommute? Maybe you can make a 2-3 day trip every other week to the new office? Granted this is probably not ideal in a new company as you need to get to know the people and politics of the new company. What's the cost of living in the new city? Just my first thoughts. tim

11-29-2012, 02:04 PM	#4
kcchief19 Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kansas City, MO	I understand all your feelings ranging from flattered to confused. That's perfectly normal. First thing I will say is is the thing I say to any of my employees, co-workers or friends looking to make a career move -- the worst reason to take a job is money. Mental health and happiness are much more important than salary. If you have your dream job, what are the chances that you can improve on your dream job? Your happiness, your wife and your family should all come before the money. That said, exploring a change isn't disloyal. The only reason I could offer you for not hearing the offer out to its conclusion and meeting with them is if you feel it can't be done discretely and your current employer would fire you immediately if they found out. Doesn't sound like that's the case. If you meet with the company and get an offer and feel like it's something you want to do, the loyal thing to do is go to your current employer and give them an opportunity to keep you. If you love your job as much as it sounds, it seems like they wouldn't have to match the offer to keep you. If they offered you a bump in salary and ownership, would you take that and stay? That's as much loyalty as any company can ask. Whatever you decide to do, don't feel bad about considering it. If your current employer likes you as much as it sounds, they would think you would be crazy not to listen. I bet the only think they want is a chance to keep you. But from a negotiation stand point, I wouldn't say anything until you have a firm offer in hand.

11-29-2012, 02:14 PM	#5
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	You know more about your situation, and your work climate, but I will give you one bit of warning. If this company feels you are important enough to your current company to make you such a huge offer, they will have no qualms about sabotaging your relationship with your current company. In others words, if they can't get you they'll be just as happy to get fired. If you really aren't interested, I'd let my company know what has happened. If they learned you discussed leaving, it could get ugly.

11-29-2012, 02:48 PM	#12
BYU 14 Coordinator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The scorched Desert	Seems like you have something most people never get to enjoy. A great job that makes you happy, affords you a comfortable living and a peace of mind that is invaluable. It was mentioned by others, but money should never be the reason. money comes and goes, but if you lose the other things that make your life complete they are hard to replace and sometimes can not be replaced. I took a 35K per year pay cut almost 5 years ago because the job I had was destroying me emotionally and physically. People thought I was crazy, but I am happy now, no stress, also get to work remote 4 days a week and feel like respected and appreciated by my current company. I have made up most of the salary lost in the past 5 years and am comfortable again after a year or so of living a little tighter then I was used to, but I wouldn't do any different. Two other things, think about the way this company is going about getting you? I know it really isn't unethical, but it seems they are driven by more than loyalty and what happens to you if they find another 'hotshot' down the road. Will they have your back ike you current employer does? I would also tell your current employer if you don't plan on leaving. It will increase your standing in their eyes even more and prove your loyalty and integrity, two things that are highly valued in business. I believe doing so will make your current job even more enjoyable. Best of luck in whatever you decide.

11-29-2012, 06:35 PM	#16
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Congrats on the imminent expansion of your family. Last edited by stevew : 11-29-2012 at 06:35 PM.

11-29-2012, 07:15 PM	#17
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	Moving from where you are now to the place where it always rains would be around a doubling or tripling of your living expenses, so the financial gains would be minimal. If my company wasn't paying for my room and board when I was living there, no way I would have done it out of my own pocket. £800/week for a 1 bedroom apartment? No thank you. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

11-29-2012, 07:42 PM	#18
SteveMax58 College Starter Join Date: Dec 2006	Congrats on the highly desirable position of having a competitor not only recognize you for your impact, but to also take action to pry you away & bring you aboard. While its impossible to know your situation & circumstances, as well as what type of company/people the competitors are....I have to say that such a lucrative offer would give me serious pause as to their intentions & how ruthless they might be. Perhaps they truly see you as a critical need for them but take an honest stock of your situation. I dont know if your line of work is very niche with only a few people/companies or very large with a lot of people/companies in it...but I think my decision to pursue it further would take that into account as you never want to burn 1 of the only 2 or 3 bridges available to you if things don't go well with the new company. I do think its worthwhile to mention to your current employer. The approach to it might depend on your relationship with them & how you normally interact. Such as...you could bring it up as a "you are never going to guess what happened to me" type of approach if you are accustomed to being informal & half-joking. Or if its a more professional approach, you could simply ask for a minute to discuss something & explain what happened. You could also play up your loyalty a bit here by saying "and guess how much they said they would compensate me? can you believe that? we must have them right where we want them"...that would also put a bug in their mind on re-evaluating what your worth to them is & make them panic at the shear thought of you leaving. But if your relationship is as good as you say it is (or as I'm interpreting), I dont think I would broach the subject of your compensation(with your current company) unless you truly feel like you are underpaid. If thats the case though, I'd create an"office meme" approach about how you are struggling because of your pay (i.e. "I have to go grab lunch from the dumpster today" or "I can't afford to pay attention"...whatever works for you but something along those lines). But if curiosity gets the better of you as its certainly eye-opening money & opportunity/recognition....make sure you are guaranteed some amount of money or time or something should you jump ship. You should also have an attorney (maybe 2 or 3 for that matter) review whatever arrangement you come to. And realize that 2 things will likely happen....1) you will never rekindle the situation you have now. Its possible to go back, get the same/better money, etc. depending on how things pan out & how you leave off with your current company but you can never go back to the way things were. 2) the new company, if they are right about your value to them, may overtake your old company & put them out of business or into irrelevance anyway. This might leave you with 1 less industry option if you help eliminate the competition (and perhaps the only competition).

11-29-2012, 08:00 PM	#19
cadmus2166 Mascot Join Date: Mar 2012	My personal take on the situation is that if you are already at your dream job, you are able to support your family, and everyone is happy with the way things are, why are you even considering this? I think you have made your own argument for yourself staying with your current job.

11-29-2012, 08:20 PM	#20
bhlloy Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003	Yeah, I generally agree with the sentiment here. Assuming you are comfortable now I don't know if there's an amount of money that I'd be willing to trade for the chance that they aren't as interested in you as they are in hurting your current employer and the chance you might be looking for another job down the road and wishing for your old job back. Especially if they are throwing around silly money for the position.

11-29-2012, 08:24 PM	#21
Balldog Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Macomb, MI	If you like where you at I would stay. The grass isn't always greener. If I were in your shoes I would consider letting your immediate boss know, perhaps over lunch. You could play this into a bigger salary/bonus at your current company. Could back fire though....

11-29-2012, 08:46 PM	#22
Izulde Head Coach Join Date: Sep 2004	I would be one of those who let your current company be aware of the situation and what happened. It's better that they know what's going on, rather than, as someone else pointed out, running the risk of the competition leaking this to your company and sabotaging your relationship with you current company. Agreed with those that if this is your dream job and things are as good there as you say, I would definitely stay. There really is no price for happiness and peace of mind you currently have, and you would have to start life all over again. __________________ 2006 Golden Scribe Nominee 2006 Golden Scribe Winner Best Non-Sport Dynasty: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty) Rookie Writer of the Year Dynasty of the Year: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty)

11-29-2012, 08:58 PM	#23
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	You know studies show that money is related to job happiness, peaking at about 400-450k (us). If you're talking about a life changing amount where you can retire in a few years I would absolutely consider it even if it means more stress in the short term.

11-29-2012, 09:04 PM	#24
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	Pretty sure I've read similar studies that peak at 75-100k, depending on where you live. __________________

11-29-2012, 09:15 PM	#25
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	It doesn't peak - that's the threshold to cross to be happy. Your marginal return after that is lower How Your Salary Level Affects Your Happiness - Forbes

11-30-2012, 05:11 AM	#26
Icy Pro Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toledo - Spain	Thanks for your advice guys, i really appreciate it and has been of a big help. After taking with my wife and consulting the pillow later, I have decided to not to take it and not even to keep toying with the offer or with the headhunter. As i said, I love my current job, how valued I am by my current company, the close relationship (friendship i would say) with the main owners, taking a big part in the strategic decision for the company like if my share % was same as the main owners. Having their full confidence, that means full freedom on doing what i think is for the good of the company no matter the cost, working on a no set schedule, telecommuting, can take days/hours off when i want (as long as nothing important is needed that day), etc. The company is also growing a lot as i said before (it's in the mobile internet marketing/publishing/apps sector, that is booming), and has big expansion plans, that have me involved. We have the funds and team to keep growing without problems for a while and in fact we have been hiring people non stop for the last year. So in resume, it doesn't look that i'm going to be jobless in the short term, but you never know in the online industry and this new bubble. Then there is also the move to another country and city (yeah it was London, UK no hard to guess). The price of living there would also be way higher than in Spain, I have not talked about it as this was just an initial contact, but I guess I would have to go to the office daily, that could mean transport costs, plus lack of the freedom i have now. Then besides the money, would be my family happiness specially my wife's, as my kid is just 5 years old and the new one will be born in a month, so it wouldn't be a problem for them to move or maybe even a good thing to learn another language. As I said and Finketr confirmed, latin women in general are all about the family and friends, mine calls and/or meet her parents and friends every day and is very social, so moving to another city far from them, taking care of two small kids while i'm the whole day away working, in a country with very bad weather compared to Spain, that means less life outside home, would be far from ideal. As i re-read what i just wrote, i'm thinking about why did i even consider it. The only incentive is higher salary, but i'm paid well enough now and anyway we are not big expenders, in fact 2/3 of my current salary is saved every month as we have a pretty standard mid class life and are happy with it. I guess I understand now a question I always made myself about sport players, free agency etc, (with the huge differences of course). I always asked myself, why do they move to another team for more money when they earn more already that can expend ever in the lives? and the answer i guess is, that earnings could be sometimes looked just at the high scores or virtual coins when you play games, the higher the better you think you are even if you really don't need them. So this morning i sent an email to the headhunter (he phoned me with hidden number, so i can't return the call) telling him on a very polite way to let the doors open for the future, that i had no interest on the position and that the main reason was loyalty and that i'm enjoying my position in that company, so no need to offer me more money as that won't be the deciding factor nor i was trying to get a counter offer. I gave him thanks for contacting me, and to tell the company owners thanks in my name too, that they could call me if they wanted and i would talk out of respect, but that my answer would be the same i'm giving him. I didn't say anything about the moving abroad issue, just in case in the future he calls my door again for this or another company and moving away is an option for us or just a must. Scared with what you said and read online in this long little sleep night, about that they might try to unsettle me in my current company, I have also called my current company owners this morning and told the whole story like you guys suggested, "you know what happened yesterday? it proves we are growing and the competition is scared of us". They were shocked but at the same time thanked me big time for being straight, and started to talk me about more plans, the future they have for me and about how good i was for them and that the offer came because the competition has seen my value for them, that they really appreciate. At last this has served as a warning and i feel they value me even more after this. Salary raise shouldn't be an issue in the future, in fact during the first negotiation when i joined them a year ago, they offered me more than my initial request as they thought it was low for the responsibilities i would have, and i have seen the same later in more job interviews for new personal where i have been involved, so it's not that they are trying to bargain their workers as this is an high competitive new business and workers with experience are hunted all the time as it has been just proved. Thanks guys, hope i won't regret, it's been a really valuable experience to think about my current way of life and what do i value the most. I will update this mini-dynasty if they counter offer, but my answer will be the same, family, happiness and freedom once you have the basic necessities covered (that are different for each individual), do not have any price. __________________ Last edited by Icy : 11-30-2012 at 06:02 AM.

11-30-2012, 05:56 AM	#27
PilotMan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seven miles up	Nice choice. We are all jealous of the opportunity to even have to make one. You did good, and congrats. __________________ He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops. Like Steam? Join the FOFC Steam group here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/FOFConSteam

11-30-2012, 07:37 AM	#28
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Nicely done SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

11-30-2012, 08:04 AM	#29
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	Sounds like you had your head on straight and handled it great Icy. Nicely done!

11-30-2012, 08:46 AM	#30
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Way to go, Icy. I think you made the right choice. By the way, this scenario has all the trappings of It's A Wonderful Life, where Mr. Potter tries to lure Jimmy Stewart into his evil clutches. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

11-30-2012, 09:02 AM	#31
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	Congrats on doing what makes you happy. FWIW, I'm from the Silicon Valley, and loyalty is non-existent out here. In fact, people don't even expect you to be loyal to them, and if you jump ship from company to company every 18 months, it isn't even frowned upon. I know several VP's at very reputable companies...places everyone here has heard of and has likely used in the past week, that have worked at 3 different companies since 2008. Re: Headhunters, I wouldn't judge this new company based on the aggressiveness of this headhunter. All recruiters (well, the good ones at least) are like this. They get minimal information from their employer - along the lines of "we like this guy, and we're willing to pay him $X for the right fit" and the recruiter then has the freedom to say anything outside of that. If it were me, I would probably have taken the job. Enough money to retire in a few years? Living in Europe? What if this new job was even better than your job now? I should say that I've always been one to welcome change. In my line of work, stagnancy leads to bankruptcy. If you have any fear of change, you're only cheating yourself out of an even brighter future. I'm in no position to judge you, and I'm not doing that here. I'm just giving you some insight on what things are like "where I come from." You had to make the decision that was best for you, and it sounds like you feel you did that. So...yay! __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon. Last edited by Sun Tzu : 11-30-2012 at 09:06 AM.

11-30-2012, 09:04 AM	#32
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	That sounds like the perfect ending for you. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

11-30-2012, 09:08 AM	#33
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Awesome! __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

11-30-2012, 09:45 AM	#35
BYU 14 Coordinator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The scorched Desert	Think you made the right choice for sure and I am pretty sure your loyalty will pay dividends down the road. Congrats!!

11-30-2012, 10:04 AM	#37
Icy Pro Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toledo - Spain	I see your points Sun Tzu and Desnudo. I guess that besides loyalty, that might be just my issue as I have not been exposed to more aggressive practices as you have, and have never experienced it against me, so maybe i'm too "virgin", we have a big difference between USA and Europe, specially at the south of Europe, that is that USA is a huge country, with differences for sure from state to state, but a single country. On the other hand, Europe is a weird mix of lot different countries, with totally different cultures, history, tradition and of course language (besides the economical union, i don't really see the point in "Europe" as an hypothetical country), so the moves from one country to another are not that common as it could be to move states in USA, where you at least speak the same language and more common things. Then in South Europe it is even more extreme, as roots and the ties with family are too strong, so people usually change city once or even never in their whole life. For the same reason, loyalty feelings might be stronger here. All that might change now with the huge crisis and the 30% unemployment rate we have in Spain now and similar numbers for Italy, Portugal and Greece, that is forcing families to split to find a way to survive. In my case, to move to UK wouldn't be that big issue as I have been exposed to English speaking cultures for a long time, mainly due to my hobbies (see FOFC) and because i have been working on internet stuff since 1998. If I were single instead of married and with kids, and the offer didn't come from a rival company but from a different sector of the same industry so I wouldn't have felt like betraying, I would have given it a longer thought and maybe i would have taken it to have a new experience in another country. Having a family depending 100% on me, and having a confortable position already, my desire to take risks in my life is way lower. Again now that i'm cold and seeing what i'm writing, i wonder how did i even consider it. __________________

11-30-2012, 11:05 AM	#42
Icy Pro Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toledo - Spain	Another question, in case the other company owner doesn't call me, and I guess he wont, should i contact him just to say thanks? What about next time i meet with him in a business event? For sure i'll meet him at the GDC in San Francisco in March if not before. Just crossed my mind that maybe the headhunter will tell him just whatever he wants to say, and not my real reasons for not taking the job, that could lead to misunderstandings or worse feelings that knowing my real reasons. I have been reading a lot in the past 24 hours about how dirty could headhunters be, so i might be paranoid now. __________________ Last edited by Icy : 11-30-2012 at 11:09 AM.

11-30-2012, 11:06 AM	#43
Alf Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Rennes, France	London transportation sucks. That can ruin one's life. __________________ FOFL - GML - IHOF - FranceStats

11-30-2012, 12:39 PM	#46
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	Yeah - I wouldn't see a problem with mentioning to the other company owner the next time you see him at a conference or whatever, something along the lines of "I spoke with HH X about a position at your company...while I was (pick your adjective) to hear of your serious interest in me it wasn't the right move for me for several reasons: (list whatever you want) . Be polite and gracious about it, "kiss their butt" a little for thinking so highly of you (without putting yourself down and saying "i'm not worth it"). __________________ Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature.

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