Need some advice - Possible Children Safety Concern

CU Tiger · 10-10-2014, 04:50 PM

I am going to try and keep this semi-short but it is going to be a losing battle because of the complexity of the situation. Really hoping for some advice from the collective group think and you guys have been a tremendous help before. I have some concerns for my next door neighbor's children and would like some advice on how others would respond.

The family next door moved in about 2.5 years ago and has been renting the house since. The neighbor wife and my wife have gotten to be pretty good friends...well the neighbor wife hangs around our place a lot and my wife tolerates her is probably more accurate. Anyway to keep this as simple as possible I am going to basically do a character run down.

Husband - Mid to late 30s. 2nd marriage. 3 kids from previous marriage 1 from this one. Very shy and socially awkard. Despite numerous attempts to converse with him from lots of folks in the neigborhood basically no success. He supposedly has a job (assembling office cubicles) that requires him to work ~100 hours per week. Is never home stays overnight frequently. Changed jobs about 6 months ago to another office cubicle company and same hours. Yet no money to show for the work, very old vehciles rarely running etc. The most dealings Ive ever had with him, not long after they moved in his wife asked if I'd ride with him to look at a used riding mower as he had never owned one and this place had too much grass to push mow. I drove as I knew the rural area better. As soon as we got there the seller came out greeted us showed us the mower and dude looked at me and said, "Should I buy it?"...I pointed out what I thought was wrong and what it might cost to fix, but overlal it was cheap enough and seemed decent. He told the seller "I'll come back later and buy it." Then insisted on riding home in the back (bed) of my truck.

Wife - 25(so was 22 when they moved in) . 1st marriage. Seems like a bright girl. Good mom to all the kids despite the oldest 3 of them rebelling against her. Seems way over her head with some of the issues. Never complains about hubby working all the time. Stay at home mom like my wife.

[Children's names changed to protect identity just in case]
Youngest Daughter - Charlie. Turns 4 in December. Happy and personable child. Very attentive and perceptive for her age and has been since she moved in. Seems like your typical normal happy little girl. Will run across the yard to give me or my wife a hug anytime she sees us, etc.

Youngest son - Pete. 8. Severe behavior issues. Has been diagnosed 3 or 4 different times/way in the time they have lived there. Most recent "working diagnosis" is Asperger's. Has had several high profile lash outs (we live in a small community so nothing is secret around here) involving throwing a desk, stabbing a teacher with a pencil, biting both the teacher and him mom(separate incidents) so severly that stitches were required/ took a chunck out of them. Etc.

Oldest Daughter - Sam. Age 12. My daughter is 11 so they initially hit it off. When they moved in my duaghter was dancing so she started doing that. When my daughter quit and started softball she followed. Good student. Very "awkward" in any social settings. CRAVES attention. All last year my wife took her to and from school as she takes our children and her and our daughter were in the same school. Not the case this year. Pretty reasonably adapted but just odd. Cant carry on a covnersation. When she tried to play softball would just walk off the field mid inning because "I got tired of standing out there". When they tried to teach her to hold a bat or whatever she would reply "Sorry I dont speak softball you will have to use another language".

Oldest Son - Justin. 15. My son is 13 like with the girls above initially when they moved in him and my son were friends but my son quickly tired of him because of his behavior. Kid has been in so much trouble it isnt funny. Right after they moved in was caught stealing from a local convenience store. Was caught peeping in a neighbors window. Has been expelled from school the last 2 years for various things. Last year it was hording school cafeteria butter knives in his locker and supposedly threatening to decapitate a teacher. Has punched and tackled the "step mom". When his ipod was taken away as punishment he first broke in the room and recovered it (breaking the door off the hinges) then the next time putting the mom and dad's phones and ipod/ipad into the toilet to "teach them what its like". Dad wont intervene when he assaults the step mom. Not long after they moved in there was an incident that led to him and my son stopping being friends. My son is a couple years younger but physically much bigger than him. At a neighborhood party he hurt several girls in the neighborhood all much younger than him by grabbing their arms and digging his fingernails into them and a couple by pushing them down. The first couple times it happened no one was around but him and the other girl. And the stories never matched. From play wrestling, to playing tag and she tripped/he shoved me down from behind and I wasnt even playing with him. Each time it got reported to a different parent (this all happened in a 20-30 minute window and we were between like 4 houses) finally my son saw him clawing one of the other neighbors and holding her down while she cried stop. My son broke it up, slammed the kid down and told the girl to come get me. Of course that drew attention to everything and he was taken home by the stepmom.

Ok that is all the back story.

Late last school year Justin moved out and moved back in with biological mom. Things stabilized and from the outside seemed to get much better. Pete became an honor roll student, still taking medication for the Asperger's but seemingly adjusting well. Sam seemed to come out of her shell some without the older brother around. Softball was still a fiasco but outside that she seemed "normalish". And Charlie, well Charlie was her normal cheerful childish self.

During a school ride last year Sam had conveyed to my wife and daughter that she was glad Justin had moved out because she slept better because when he was there he would come into her room at night and "watch her sleep". My wife asked if he ever woke her up and she said "no, just watch me sleep but I know he is there". Odd. Mentioned it to step mom and filed it away.

Later it came out from step mom that at least some of the lash outs from Pete were all related to needing to go to the bathroom. Even at 8 he would poop himself and get violent when anyone mentioned cleaning him up and that is when he bit and stabbed the teacher (2 separate incidents).

Fast forward to 4 weeks ago. Justin has now moved back in next door because bio mom kicked him out. His weirdness continues. He will creep around the yard like he is sneaking up on somthing in broad day light. When I've seen him ouside I will say hello and he will just stare but not respond...nothing major. Just "kid aint right".

Then earlier this week I came home to find my daughter, Sam and Charlie playing at my house. First time I had seen Charlie in probably a month. Like I said early on this is a little girl who for a solid year runs up jumps into my arms for a hug everytime she sees me. Screams hello Mr. Ron when she is leaving and I am outside...always tells me she loves me. Ive frequently joked that she is my 3rd child. Well this week when I came home from work instead of the jumping hug it seemed like she almost shied away from me. I thought this was odd, but chalked it up to it had been a month or so since Id seen her and a month is forever in a 3+ year olds life. But when I tried to talk to her, I got the sense that she was almost timidly shrinking away from me. And in fact within minutes of me coming home she left and went home. Normally her mom has to come get her kicking and screaming to leave.

I had my wife inquire if she had been normal to her mom and the mom said "yeah everythings fine...Justin being home adds stress to everyone because of space but other than that all is well".

I'm not a psychologist and will never pretend to be. But the behavior issues were undeniably much worse before Justin moved out. Maybe they are unrelated but between the coming into the bedroom story and the whole deal with Pete and being scared of anyone getting near him to clean up a mess and just maybe darned ole intuition...I fear that the oldest child may be abusing the younger children. The three oldest are visibly "broken" in how they carry themselves. The bio mom is supposeduly "psycho" but of course we only hear one side of that story. Maybe she is the reason for the kids trauma. But none of them have spent any significant time around her, except Justin, in years. Besides "just" a divorce doesnt leave kids this dysfunctional. Heck I was the product of a mom who went through a half dozen husbands before I was 12.

The situation is weird enough that my daughter isnt allowed in their house if either the oldest son or the dad are there. Just because I dont feel comfortable.

I dont know what to do. On one hand I want to protect the kids if anything is happening. On the other hand with the two boys both being "in the system" I would think antennas would already be raised by the professionals to look out for any of this. (I know for example that both of the boys have mandatory regular counseling sessions). Plus with the challenges these kids have already faced I would feel horrible if I am reading the whole situation wrong and cause them any undo harm or strife.

If I even want to intervene I dont know how or where to even start. Who to contact. DSS?

So enough rambling...what sage advice can you offer, FOFC.

Cap Ologist · 10-10-2014, 05:24 PM

I think you should call Child Protective Services (or its' equivalent in your state) and report your concerns. There are a lot of indicators for sexual abuse: coming into the room late at night, a kid with pooping issues that age is usually done of out self-defense. Something isn't right there.

JAG · 10-10-2014, 06:39 PM

I'm not qualified to speak on this, but I would be very concerned about Justin's previous behavior and the ancillary evidence you provided. I think Cap's suggestion is a good one.

dawgfan · 10-10-2014, 07:10 PM

Contacting CPS is definitely an option you should consider. But you might want to leverage the "small community" situation first to see if you can gather more info. Do you know the counselors for the schools the neighbor kids attend? While anything they are told by the kids about their home life is supposed to stay confidential, they might be willing to talk with you about them in a general sense, especially if you express your own observations and concerns. Doing so might give you a little more insight as to whether it's advisable to get CPS involved.

The downside to a CPS call is not knowing how effective they are in your area, and the danger of some level of backlash from contacting them especially if the neighbors suspect you were the person reporting them.

Has your wife attempting to delve into any of this with neighbor mom?

JonInMiddleGA · 10-10-2014, 07:21 PM

Something ain't right, and it sure sounds like more than just "kid ain't right".

Can I, or even I presume to, tell you what to do? Nope.

But I will tell you that your concerns seem wholly & totally reasonable. What you've described is downright creepy on a number of levels.

flere-imsaho · 10-10-2014, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Something ain't right, and it sure sounds like more than just "kid ain't right".

Can I, or even I presume to, tell you what to do? Nope.

But I will tell you that your concerns seem wholly & totally reasonable. What you've described is downright creepy on a number of levels.

Exactly my thoughts. You're not off base here. Stay tough and good luck.

Solecismic · 10-10-2014, 08:20 PM

You're kind of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Since the father thinks of you as an authority of sorts, you're best off trying to address this directly with him. If he tells you to mind your own business, you have to decide whether a call to CPS is appropriate.

But, yes, it sounds like the kid is a problem, and perhaps a danger to your children as well.

timmae · 10-10-2014, 08:51 PM

Call CPS. They should be the professionals to look over this issue. There is a cause for concern, no doubt.

miked · 10-10-2014, 09:01 PM

With all the issues you've said, it's rather shocking that CPS has not already been called.

dawgfan · 10-10-2014, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked

With all the issues you've said, it's rather shocking that CPS has not already been called.

There's a good chance they have.

Lathum · 10-10-2014, 09:38 PM

Not sure if EF27 would be willing to comment in public, but youmy want to shot him a PM and see if he will give his opinion.

Sounds like there are a ton of red flags if you ask me and the oldest one needs lots of professional help.

ColtCrazy · 10-10-2014, 09:41 PM

I'm in my 17th year of teaching and only once did I know of a child beyond kindergarten pooping himself. And come to find out there were some serious issues in this kids home.
I haven't taught beyond 11, but I've had a handful of those "ain't right" kids and they seem to always turn violent by the time they get to high school.
Without spending any time with the kids, it's impossible to say for sure, but for a girl to completely change her personality around you so quickly is usually a sign something has happened. When I've seen that, at the least I find out there's been a change in medication. The youngest isn't on any, so I would speculate that something has happened.
Call CPS. I sincerely hope they are a bit more diligent than they are around here at times. If your wife has any influence on the step mom, she might want to start dropping hints of what she can do. She's young and may not understand what she needs to do to protect herself and her family.

korme · 10-10-2014, 09:48 PM

This sounds like a scary movie.

JPhillips · 10-10-2014, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Not sure if EF27 would be willing to comment in public, but youmy want to shot him a PM and see if he will give his opinion.

Sounds like there are a ton of red flags if you ask me and the oldest one needs lots of professional help.

My thoughts exactly.

PilotMan · 10-11-2014, 01:27 AM

My thoughts are a little bit different right now. My first thought from what you are saying is that there seems to be some pretty major issues with communication and social development.

Starting with the father right on down to son, the daughter, and the other son. It's quite possible that there is some undiagnosed disorder that has been passed down on some level to the kids. Being in that environment also helps to shape that behavior through behavior reinforcement from the parents.

It's not uncommon for ASD or Aspbergers kids (who can have massive communication issues) to act out or generally have massive meltdowns like you describe. They need massive attention and have significant communication issues. It doesn't seem like that is even possible in that family for him to get what he needs from them.

The little girl may just be realizing what is going on in her family.

The oldest seems like another playing field tbh. He seems like he may have some genuine boderline/schitzo/antisocial type personality disorder. Again he probably isn't getting the treatment that he needs. Frankly I'd be seriously concerned by having him anywhere near my family for any reason.

I'm not sure that going to CPS is really going to amount to anything at this point. Unless you have some pretty strong arguments that something is really going on I don't think that you'll go far with them. What will happen is that it'll stir up a shitstorm and could make things much more difficult for you and your family.

I'd be very observant. I still think based on what you've posted that you just need more information before you really are going to be able to get anywhere. My biggest concern outside of the oldest boy would be for the well being of the women in that house. It seems like they are really in a bad spot with the oldest and the dad being pretty much useless. Above all BE CAREFUL.

Dutch · 10-11-2014, 07:28 AM

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I'm not sure that going to CPS is really going to amount to anything at this point. Unless you have some pretty strong arguments that something is really going on I don't think that you'll go far with them. What will happen is that it'll stir up a shitstorm and could make things much more difficult for you and your family.

I guess I'm missing the difference between CPS and say...the cops, then. Isn't CPS designed to be a little less criminal and a lot more proactive in helping/saving the kids before the damage is done? I would call CPS to let them evaluate the situation and make sure everything is okay because neighbors aren't psychologists...but typically are aware enough to know that something "ain't right". I think it's worth the call...relationship between neighbors be damned.

timmae · 10-11-2014, 10:05 AM

I am seriously hoping I don't see the oldest son on the news about another incident of things gone wrong. We just had a whack job shoot off a few rounds from a rifle on a subway train here this last week. The crazy part is that he had 50 rounds with him but no one got hurt. May be best to use everyone's judgement to stop these kind of things. Not saying that this case is to that level but...

PilotMan · 10-11-2014, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch

I guess I'm missing the difference between CPS and say...the cops, then. Isn't CPS designed to be a little less criminal and a lot more proactive in helping/saving the kids before the damage is done? I would call CPS to let them evaluate the situation and make sure everything is okay because neighbors aren't psychologists...but typically are aware enough to know that something "ain't right". I think it's worth the call...relationship between neighbors be damned.

The thing is that CPS is a government agency. They do frequently work closely with the police when they have to remove kids from homes. They have very strict rules and regulations that they are only allowed to work within. Meaning that unless the case hits a number of points on a checklist they won't be able to do anything. Being weird still isn't against the law.

I think the biggest support for some action taking place is the violence against the girls and step mom. It seems like an entry to a broader realm of more violent behaviors. If most of the incidents are occurring within the family and the family isn't doing anything or willing to do anything it's a major roadblock.

I'd be ready to call the cops in an instant if I heard anything out of the ordinary and concerning coming from their house though.

PilotMan · 10-11-2014, 10:45 AM

So I chatted with my lovely wife who has some serious firsthand experience with childhood abuse. She thinks that you have to call CPS. She disagrees with me about CPS. She says that the behavior of the youngest is the strongest barometer that there is something seriously wrong in the house.

She says that a visit from a social worker who is trained to see such things and knows how to observe is necessary. The fact that the oldest already has a history of documented behavior is enough to qualify a visit if you suspect that something else it going on.

I don't bet against my wife. She has an incredible intuition and insight into these types of situations. I defer my position and state that it's in the kids best interests for you to act asap.

CU Tiger · 10-13-2014, 04:44 PM

Update
So after thinking this over all weekend at the expense of a not insignificant amount of sleep, I finally decided to call the Department of Social Services (DSS serves the role of Child Protective Services) this morning.

That turned into a bit of an adventure. First you have to leave your name and phone number on a voice mail for someone to call you back to file the report. Then they explained for 5 minutes why I would be anonymous as the reporter. Then spent 5 minutes getting my info. (seriously all the way down to my place of employment and my wife's and then explaining wy she was a SAHM...)finally he listened to my report. I basically detailed what I said above.

He then asked me to spell the children's names. And asked if I wanted a follow up call to advise me whether it would proceed with an investigation or be a closed one call resolution and explained if they called me back all they could say was whether they would follow up or if they were closed. Then 10 minutes after we got off the phone they called me back, I was on the other line they left no message so...who knows.

But in some way I feel like I at least did my part, while in another that isnt very reassuring.

Eaglesfan27 · 10-13-2014, 05:00 PM

I think calling the DSS was a very good move. The quality of those types of departments varies widely from state to state and unfortunately depends a lot upon the luck of the draw of which worker it gets assigned to. Good luck moving forward.

Toddzilla · 10-13-2014, 06:04 PM

Bravo, sir. Too many cases like this go unreported where it could have saved a kid or two.

Follow up tomorrow and see if they need anything.

Sweed · 10-13-2014, 06:47 PM

Good for you CU Tiger making the call. Not an easy situation and one I hope I'm never in. But if I were I'd like to think I'd do what you just did.

saldana · 10-14-2014, 10:02 AM

im late to the party, but i think you did absolutely the right thing by calling CPS...while i was reading your descriptions of the kids, i was already recognizing behaviors that look like some kind of abuse has occured...it was really just a question of whether it was the father or the older brother that was the actor...(it may likely be both)

hats' off to you for caring enough to try to help

JonInMiddleGA · 10-14-2014, 11:07 AM

Bandwagoning the "right call to make the call" chorus.

You done good Tiger, afaic.

Dreghorn2 · 10-14-2014, 12:17 PM

What i like about this community, and why i have lurked here for so long (well before join date), is the genuine level of concern and support for all posters here.

In addition, most advice and discussion is well thought out and generally not 'from the hip' when the situation is a serious one.

Well done and carry on.

lighthousekeeper · 10-14-2014, 12:51 PM

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