Siege in Sydney CBD

[Groundhog]

At about 9.30 am this morning it seems 1 gunman took a Lindt chocolate store siege, and has 14 or more people trapped inside with him, holding Islamic (not ISIS as was first reported) flags up against the glass. Scary stuff, it's about 10 mins away from my office and most of Sydney is on lockdown right now. Hopefully it's just the one crazy guy involved and the talk of bombs is BS, and the people inside get out OK.

[miami_fan]

Stay safe GH

[JPhillips]

Yeah, keep your head down. That's some scarey shit.

[EagleFan]

Hoping all is well and they get that insane MF.

[Kodos]

Update?

[Groundhog]

5 people have escaped/were released... unclear how many are left in there - "less than 30" is all we've heard. It's been about 14 hours now. Lights are off and it's approaching midnight. Police have revealed very little and now all special unit police and paramedics are away from the cameras. Nobody injured as far as we know.

Only one gunman so I really wonder what's going to happen as we go through the night... been a long day for everyone involved, including him.

[Lathum]

man, hope everyone stays safe.

[BYU 14]

Scary, hoping everyone gets out safely, thanks for the update

[JPhillips]

I swear Uber has meetings to determin the worst PR moves. From Uber's Australian twitter account:

We are all concerned with events in CBD. Fares have increased to encourage more drivers to come online & pick up passengers in the area.

Apparently fare went up by four times to as much as 80$. After taking a beating on-line, Uber reversed and offered free rides.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I swear Uber has meetings to determin the worst PR moves. From Uber's Australian twitter account:



Apparently fare went up by four times to as much as 80$. After taking a beating on-line, Uber reversed and offered free rides.

Not the thread for this, but this is yet another example of why I'm against Uber monopolizing the taxi market at the expense of fare-regulated providers.

"Only those without money deserve the right to lower their risk of being shot."

[BYU 14]

News outlets reporting Police have ended the siege, reports coming in are sketchy, but it looks like no hostages lost their lives, lets hope this bears out!

[RainMaker]

Someone should start an Uber thread. Fascinating company. I love the service but that tweet was a head scratcher.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Someone should start an Uber thread. Fascinating company. I love the service but that tweet was a head scratcher.

Anyone here use Uber or other ride-hailing services? - Front Office Football Central

Glad to hear the situation seems to be resolved.

[HarryLime]

2 hostages are reported dead and the gunman also killed in the assault..

the gunman was known to police and was on bail for accessory to murder, and was a self styled islamic preacher.

thoughts go to the family of the 2 innocent people.

[Kodos]

Ugh.

[RainMaker]

Religion of peace

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Religion of peace

I'm sure there are many people that look at Christians the same way. This man was simply fucked in the head, like many, many other folks who have committed horrific crimes.

[timmae]

This hits fairly close to home as my wife has a close friend that works across the street. The friend is ok but a bit shaken... I'll fight like hell to give everyone the right to think and do what they want to as long as it does not affect anyone else. Stuff like this is downright absurd.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I'm sure there are many people that look at Christians the same way. This man was simply fucked in the head, like many, many other folks who have committed horrific crimes.

Christians are not in the same league as Islam when it comes to violence and lack of human rights. No comparison at all.

[Illini Boy]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I'm sure there are many people that look at Christians the same way. This man was simply fucked in the head, like many, many other folks who have committed horrific crimes.

I forgot that in the past five years, Christian pastors have been known to hold hostages and kill civilians.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Christians are not in the same league as Islam when it comes to violence and lack of human rights. No comparison at all.

So nobody who takes hostages in this country is Christian? No abortion clinic bombings? No active/mass shooters were raised Christian?

[sterlingice]

I mean, it's been a whole 5 years since one I can name off the top of my head:

Assassination of George Tiller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And lets not even talk about history before, say, 100 years ago.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Australians' Amazingly Compassionate Response To Horrific Religious Extremism | ThinkProgress

Sunday evening, a gunman calling himself “The Brother” stormed a Sydney cafe and took several hostages, beginning an ongoing siege with local law enforcement and making several demands — including that officials bring him the black flag of ISIS, an infamously violent jihadist group in Iraq and Syria also known as the Islamic State. Within hours of the incident, however, a coalition of 50 Muslim organizations quickly released a statement condemning the militant’s actions and urging their fellow Australians not to conflate the attack with all of Islam.
“We reject any attempt to take the innocent life of any human being, or to instill fear and terror into their hearts,” the letter read. “Any such despicable act only serves to play into the agendas of those who seek to destroy the goodwill of the people of Australia and to further damage, and ridicule the religion of Islam, and Australian Muslims throughout this country.”

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Australians' Amazingly Compassionate Response To Horrific Religious Extremism | ThinkProgress

They're all EVILLLLL!!!1!

[Illini Boy]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Australians' Amazingly Compassionate Response To Horrific Religious Extremism | ThinkProgress

Which was the same response Christian organizations and churches had after the George Tiller murder. Additionally, Scott Roeder was not a Christian pastor.

[BYU 14]

Sympathy to the victims of this tragedy at the hands of an unstable human, regardless of the banner he committed the crime under.

Not getting involved in a debate in the history of violence in name of God as no religion is without blood on their hands. Obviously the extremists among the Muslim faith are behind a majority of the current religious violence, but the larger problem is just the sheer number of people with SMI's in this world that perpetrate these acts.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Illini Boy

Which was the same response Christian organizations and churches had after the George Tiller murder. Additionally, Scott Roeder was not a Christian pastor.

And Scott Roeder was obviously fucked in the head. Someone likely with violent tendencies who used religion as a reason to do horrible things.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Illini Boy

Which was the same response Christian organizations and churches had after the George Tiller murder. Additionally, Scott Roeder was not a Christian pastor.

Sure - not arguing that.

My post wasn't to try to come down on one side or another - personally I find virtually all religions distasteful, in no small part because of (as Chris Rock's character says in Dogma) "the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."

[Illini Boy]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

And Scott Roeder was obviously fucked in the head. Someone likely with violent tendencies who used religion as a reason to do horrible things.

Agreed, but I would have to question whether the American population sees Christians == Muslims as you stated earlier.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

So nobody who takes hostages in this country is Christian? No abortion clinic bombings? No active/mass shooters were raised Christian?

They are considered extremists in that religion and their behavior is rare. That is not the case with Islam.

All religions have good and bad people associated. Islam just happens to have a lot more of the bad ones.

[Illini Boy]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Sure - not arguing that.

My post wasn't to try to come down on one side or another - personally I find virtually all religions distasteful, in no small part because of (as Chris Rock's character says in Dogma) "the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."

And I wasn't directing my statement at you, my apologies for not being clear. I was just using the link to indicate that in the George Tiller case, it wasn't like Christians were all pumped up about killing an abortion doctor. Just like the majority of Muslims aren't thrilled about holding hostages and killing civilians. In my experience with people (no numbers to back this up), generally people do not see Christians and Muslims the same in regards to violence which is what I thought BillJasper was saying. Typically, the response is similar to RainMakers. But once again, no numbers or reports to back that up.

[Groundhog]

As soon as I saw the guy's name I recognized him as the guy that sent letters to the families of dead soldiers in Afghanistan. As the guy's former lawyer said this morning, this guy was on the fringe of the fringe... The fact that one of his requests was an ISIS flag - something you would assume a "terrorist" would have easy access to - tells you all you need to know about his affiliations...

The real question is why he was even out on bail given the things he has done over the past several years, including sexual assaults, and involvement in the murder of his ex-wife. We've had a string of horrific crimes committed by people out on bail over the past few years, and something has to change.

I don't want to get too much into the Islam debate outside of saying that I live right in the middle of the biggest Islamic population in Australia. Look at some of the countries these people emigrated from. I'm not excusing anything that they do, but that's the reality of the situation - it has a lot less to do with the holy book of any religion than it does the situation of the people following the religion.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Sure - not arguing that.

My post wasn't to try to come down on one side or another - personally I find virtually all religions distasteful, in no small part because of (as Chris Rock's character says in Dogma) "the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."

Most Christians don't murder abortion doctors, and most Muslims aren't terrorists. And hell, most police officers don't shoot unarmed black people, or anyone. If one has an axe to grind though, these things are super fun ways to group people they don't like. You can almost feel the excitement when people are killed - time to break out the soap box about disfavored groups! Same thing racists do with black people and violent crime.

[RainMaker]

Most countries that are predominately Christian don't stone rape victims, execute people for committing adultery, force women to conceal themselves at all times, consider women legal property of their husband, arrange child brides, don't allow women to drive, and so on.

These are not rare cases either. These are the law of the lands in many countries that are predominately Muslim. Countries that base their laws on their religion. At some point we have to stop making excuses and point out that there are some major issues with that religion compared to others.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Most countries that are predominately Christian don't stone rape victims, execute people for committing adultery, force women to conceal themselves at all times, consider women legal property of their husband, arrange child brides, don't allow women to drive, and so on.

Not anymore, no.

These are not rare cases either. These are the law of the lands in many countries that are predominately Muslim. Countries that base their laws on their religion. At some point we have to stop making excuses and point out that there are some major issues with that religion compared to others.

Have you noticed that - religion aside - there's a pretty significant divide between the predominately Christian and Muslim countries? One that has little to do with actual religion.....

[RainMaker]

Application of sharia law by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lot of countries still applying backwards criminal.

And lets talk about child brides. The majority of women married in the Middle East and Muslim Asian countries are under the age of 18. 70% in Pakistan marry before 16. In the Northwest part of the country that has the strongest Islamic beliefs, over half the girls married are under 13.

No other religion matches the human rights record.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Application of sharia law by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lot of countries still applying backwards criminal.

And lets talk about child brides. The majority of women married in the Middle East and Muslim Asian countries are under the age of 18. 70% in Pakistan marry before 16. In the Northwest part of the country that has the strongest Islamic beliefs, over half the girls married are under 13.

No other religion matches the human rights record.

And do you think this is due to the actual religion of Islam, or due to the fact that these are poor, tribal-based societies with poor-to-no education. A lot like the Christian societies in the past where things like this also took place regularly.

As an Atheist I'm glad I don't live in a country that is under any kind of religious rule - be it Muslim or Christian. We've seen what happens when that's the case - with Islam it's now in the middle East, with Christianity the not-so-distant past.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No other religion matches the human rights record.

Take a look at the map in the Wikipedia link, shall we? (We'll discount for now the reliability issues with Wikipedia). By and large, these are countries that are either very poor, very unstable, or both - or, as Groundhog points out, social and economic issues play a major role.

The fact of the matter is that almost every society has a history of blood on its hands. To blame it on religions is myopic at best, in my opinion, and frequently ignores the true underlying causes of the strife - for example, I would posit the repeated foreign intervention by rapacious imperial powers as a central cause of the current problems with extremism and *not* Islam itself.

[Izulde]

I should also add that unlike the atheists on the board and DT, I generally have a positive view of religion, so long as universal tolerance and acceptance of others' religious paths is part of the creed.

Those who want to blame religion for a lot of bad shit done in the name of God/Goddess/The Divine/Insertpersonaldeitynameanddepictionhere forget that religion is merely a pretext. Absent religion, the people intent on causing harm to others for some sort of gain will find some other justification for it (Bolsheviks, anyone?)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Take a look at the map in the Wikipedia link, shall we? (We'll discount for now the reliability issues with Wikipedia). By and large, these are countries that are either very poor, very unstable, or both - or, as Groundhog points out, social and economic issues play a major role.

The fact of the matter is that almost every society has a history of blood on its hands. To blame it on religions is myopic at best, in my opinion, and frequently ignores the true underlying causes of the strife - for example, I would posit the repeated foreign intervention by rapacious imperial powers as a central cause of the current problems with extremism and *not* Islam itself.

Which comes first though? Yes many of those countries are poor and unstable. But is religion the reason they are? There seems to be a ton of fighting between groups based on religion. It seems to be their primary focus.

I mean these countries didn't get unlucky geographically. Most sit on piles of natural resources. The amount of oil in many of these countries should allow for a vibrant economy. Yet they are unable to capitalize on that. Is it because they are more concerned about their faith than their prosperity?

And I understand there may be other reasons. But I do know when they murder each other or innocent people in other countries, they say it's because of their religion. I'll take them at their word on that.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I mean these countries didn't get unlucky geographically. Most sit on piles of natural resources. The amount of oil in many of these countries should allow for a vibrant economy. Yet they are unable to capitalize on that. Is it because they are more concerned about their faith than their prosperity?

I'll bow out of the conversation here because I find life much more enjoyable when I'm not engaging in political/religious debates online, but this underlined part of your comment is indeed the billion dollar question, isn't it.

[JPhillips]

Economies built on a single resource gathering operation tend not to do very well. One, that single resource's price is too volatile for long term planning. Just look at the price of oil and the Russian economy. Two, the wealth from that single resource tends not to be evenly distributed. The oil rich Gulf states are perfect examples of states with an extremely wealthy minority and an impoverished majority.

But this is hardly limited to oil. Look at Appalachia and coal extraction and you'll see the same thing.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Which comes first though? Yes many of those countries are poor and unstable. But is religion the reason they are? There seems to be a ton of fighting between groups based on religion. It seems to be their primary focus.

I mean these countries didn't get unlucky geographically. Most sit on piles of natural resources. The amount of oil in many of these countries should allow for a vibrant economy. Yet they are unable to capitalize on that. Is it because they are more concerned about their faith than their prosperity?

And I understand there may be other reasons. But I do know when they murder each other or innocent people in other countries, they say it's because of their religion. I'll take them at their word on that.

In addition to what JPhillips said, any time you have a singular resource economy, you're going to be highly susceptible to boom/bust cycles. Furthermore, from my understanding of oil, it's not like you can just pull out of the ground and magic money appears. It takes a lot of money and resources to extract and refine it. That means the wealth isn't going to trickle down (Trickle down economies never work, but that's another matter entirely).

To turn your scenario around, American companies have experienced record profits over the last couple decades, yet unemployment and loss of real income in wages continue to be major problems that plague the economy. Clearly, the US isn't able to capitalize on the wealth of their major corporations. Is that because they're more concerned about their faith than their prosperity?

[whomario]

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