OT - Texas Hold'em blunder

[AnalBumCover]

Oh, what could've been...

I was at playing Hold'em at Excalibur last weekend. $2-6 spread-limit tables. Most of the night, the table was somewhat tight, for such a low-limit table.

Pre-flop, I had JJ in early position, and I raise the blind, $2 + $2. Several players are scared away. One from the button raises $6. Button re-raises $6. Blind folds, leaving me with $12 to call.

The two raisers have been aggressive most of the night, so I put them on at least a QQ or AK. So that scared me off, and I folded.

Flop comes: X-X-J. I would've flopped a set. The two players bet and raise max $6 and cap it. Turn comes up blank, as does the river. Each betting round is capped. There is clearly over $120 in chips in the pot, and they showdown.

One player had the QQ and the other AJ.

I was mentally smacking myself in the head for folding the JJ pre-flop.

How would you have played against two re-raises behind you in early position?

[primelord]

You played your hand right. If a player who you know is a solid player re-raises an early position raiser then it is absolutely reasonable to assume they are sitting on AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK. And then with another raise behind it (although the guy with AJ was stupid to re-raise he should have mucked that hand against an early position raiser) certainly should be enough to drive you out.

You made the right call. You were a huge underdog to those Q's. So despite the fact you caught your set it was the right call to make.

[Bee]

primelord is probably right, but I'd have had trouble mucking the JJ's. I'm weak that way.

[cthomer5000]

You definitely played it right. I would have assumed Q pair or higher, or AK suited there. Given the re-raise, you had to figure you were up against two tough hands. Think about it this way, if you knew they were holding those cards, would you have called?

[primelord]

Originally posted by Bee
primelord is probably right, but I'd have had trouble mucking the JJ's. I'm weak that way.

A lot of people seem to have that problem. Especially when you have gone 40 straight hands without getting anything playable it can be touhg to let things like J's and 10's go. My favorite is the party poker fishys that will cap out the betting pre flop with any pair. They read things like that a pair dueces is a slight favorite to win over AKs and think they should play it hard. They don't realize that if there are 3 other people in the pot that no matter what they are holding they aren't the favorites.

I usually limp in with Jacks from early position. And I will only raise them if I am in middle position and am the first one on or if I am in late position and there haven't been many callers. With as often as people at low limit tables play Ax and Kx you don't want to coomit a lot of money to the pot pre flop against a lot of players. It ends up becoming very easy to make the second best hand. Plus limping in from early position better disguises your hand when you flop your set.

[Bee]

Originally posted by primelord
A lot of people seem to have that problem. Especially when you have gone 40 straight hands without getting anything playable it can be touhg to let things like J's and 10's go. My favorite is the party poker fishys that will cap out the betting pre flop with any pair. They read things like that a pair dueces is a slight favorite to win over AKs and think they should play it hard. They don't realize that if there are 3 other people in the pot that no matter what they are holding they aren't the favorites.

I usually limp in with Jacks from early position. And I will only raise them if I am in middle position and am the first one on or if I am in late position and there haven't been many callers. With as often as people at low limit tables play Ax and Kx you don't want to coomit a lot of money to the pot pre flop against a lot of players. It ends up becoming very easy to make the second best hand. Plus limping in from early position better disguises your hand when you flop your set.

I agree and it's something I've been working on. I wouldn't have played anything less than JJ in that situation, but I probably would have played the JJ's to the flop. I know it doesn't make sense, but I don't always play the odds. I sometimes go on instinct and hope.

[AnalBumCover]

Switching gears, yet remaining on the topic of "blunders"

Next day, same limits. I had AhTs and limped in late position, making a 5 handed table into the flop. I can't remember the flop nor the turn, but I do remember there were three hearts on the board. I had an ace-high flush draw. But I didn't realize it after I folded my hand to a bet and several calls on the turn.... pot odds were in my favor.

Lo and behold, river was a heart. The nuts. Oh well... maybe I shouldn't have diverted my attention to the UCLA/USC game.

[sabotai]

I wouldn't call that a big blunder. I mean, it's not like you lost half your stac (I did a few times in my early playing days ). Just keep playing and it'll start becoming second nature to you.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by primelord
I usually limp in with Jacks from early position.

In a tight game, it's best to raise with JJ from an early position. In a loose game, it's best to treat them as a middle pair and limp in.

What you're looking for with JJ is to

(a) get heads up, or maybe 3-way
(b) multiway (>6), if you flop your set you're good; otherwise you lay it down if an overcard flops.

The WORST possible scenerio with JJ is to be against 4 opponents.

[Ufer]

Originally posted by primelord
A lot of people seem to have that problem. Especially when you have gone 40 straight hands without getting anything playable it can be touhg to let things like J's and 10's go. My favorite is the party poker fishys that will cap out the betting pre flop with any pair. They read things like that a pair dueces is a slight favorite to win over AKs and think they should play it hard.

I agree. I think JJ and 10-10 play very well heads up, especially NL, or multi-way, but badly versus 2-3 opponents. If more than one opponent is in, I think of these hands as middle-pairs: only play them if implied odds are high and be prepared to muck unless I flop a set or maybe rags.

I like to play J-9s and 10-8s, because they're easy to disguise and can win lots of $$, but I've been punished playing them in early position. Do you think it's worth limping early with these hands and would you see a raise versus 2-3 opponents?

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by Ufer
I like to play J-9s and 10-8s, because they're easy to disguise and can win lots of $$, but I've been punished playing them in early position. Do you think it's worth limping early with these hands and would you see a raise versus 2-3 opponents?

No. You need to be against 5 or 6 opponents to get implied odds. Otherwise, it's a negative EV play. If you limp in with T8 suited early and get raised by the next player, you'll most likely be playing the hand in a short-handed pot out of position. In a loose, passive game, you could limp early with J9s. I would hesitate to do so with T8s.

Now, in mid or late position, it's a different story. If you've already got a couple of limpers, you're good.

[primelord]

Originally posted by Ufer
I like to play J-9s and 10-8s, because they're easy to disguise and can win lots of $$, but I've been punished playing them in early position. Do you think it's worth limping early with these hands and would you see a raise versus 2-3 opponents?

I'll say that if Vic comes behind me and offers advice different from what I say you should follow his advice. He is the pro.

With that being said I wouldn't play J9s or 10-8s at all unless they were in the blinds. You don't have as many straight possibilities as you do when they are connected and you can very easily end up with the second best hand with those cards. If you make top pair and you get several callers there is a good chance you are out kicked. And if you make the flush it's very possible someone has a better flush.

And I would never play them against a raise. You are almost garaunteed to be a huge underdog to any hand someone might raise unless they are just a crazy raiser. Howevre if your in the small blind with one of those hands I think it is worth the half bet to see the flop, but be willing to lay it down if you don't flop a very strong hand.

Edit: See Vic came in with different advice. Go with his.

[Ufer]

Originally posted by Vegas Vic
No. You need to be against 5 or 6 opponents to get implied odds. Otherwise, it's a negative EV play. If you limp in with T8 suited early and get raised by the next player, you'll most likely be playing the hand in a short-handed pot out of position. In a loose, passive game, you could limp early with J9s. I would hesitate to do so with T8s.

Now, in mid or late position, it's a different story. If you've already got a couple of limpers, you're good.

This all makes sense, and that's exactly how I've been punished playing these hands first-in in early position. But to ask a further question: I'm always looking for situations where I can make an unorthodox move (hopefully not too often) to have a chance to win a big pot, and if I've established I'm a tight player, do you think playing these hands (and what other hands) can give that opportunity? I have the suspicion this tactic works better in NL tourneys and have had sucess with it, especially when the blinds are smaller.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by Ufer
This all makes sense, and that's exactly how I've been punished playing these hands first-in in early position. But to ask a further question: I'm always looking for situations where I can make an unorthodox move (hopefully not too often) to have a chance to win a big pot, and if I've established I'm a tight player, do you think playing these hands (and what other hands) can give that opportunity? I have the suspicion this tactic works better in NL tourneys and have had sucess with it, especially when the blinds are smaller.

Ufer, if you're playing against tough, observant opponents, it's a good idea to OCCASIONALLY open raise early with a hand like 98s. They will pick up on this, and say to themselves, "Hmm, this guy doesn't just raise with big pairs and big cards." This will also help you with AK, when rags flop, they won't be as inclined to steal.

As I mentioned, this is against tough, observant opponents. If you're playing against a group of PartyPoker.com idiots who don't pay attention and will call down with anything, it's a waste of time. Just play tight/aggressive and take their money.

[primelord]

Originally posted by Ufer
This all makes sense, and that's exactly how I've been punished playing these hands first-in in early position. But to ask a further question: I'm always looking for situations where I can make an unorthodox move (hopefully not too often) to have a chance to win a big pot, and if I've established I'm a tight player, do you think playing these hands (and what other hands) can give that opportunity? I have the suspicion this tactic works better in NL tourneys and have had sucess with it, especially when the blinds are smaller.

In terms of playing something unorthodox you generally want to still stick to hands that can make big hands. For example if you are concerned that someone has caught on to that you only raise premium hands you should throw in a raise on something like 8-9s from early position. This still gives you the potential of hitting a monster hand, but when you turn your cards over will give the impression that you may have weak raising standards.

However you only want to do this occasionally. Don't get into the habit of raising middle and small suited connectors in early position. A lot of fish do that and a lot of them leave the table with no money.

Edit: Bah Vic beat me to it again. Atleast I gave similar advice.