What will the punishment from the NCAA be to UNC?

[chesapeake]

The death penalty is not nearly enough punishment for Carolina.

____________________________
Duke University, Class of '92

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Two, way too many people are attached to their college team and wouldn't ever give up the college sports experience.

Isn't that exactly what I said? We don't want that to happen because we love college sports, but we want the right to act outraged and howl for punishment when these athletes who are essentially forced to pretend to be students are pretending to be students. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Isn't that exactly what I said? We don't want that to happen because we love college sports, but we want the right to act outraged and howl for punishment when these athletes who are essentially forced to pretend to be students are pretending to be students. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

The age limits are collectively bargained for by the leagues and the unions. They want to protect jobs of their existing union members and not lose them to future members before they absolutely have to. That's your bigger obstacle on age limits.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Isn't that exactly what I said? We don't want that to happen because we love college sports, but we want the right to act outraged and howl for punishment when these athletes who are essentially forced to pretend to be students are pretending to be students. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

I'll only speak for myself. I don't want the kids punished. I would love if those who wanted to pursue a degree could do so while the others could spend their time training while also spending a few hours a week focused on learning about basic financial planning and "life after sports/if sports don't work out" type knowledge.

But I want the coaches and administrators punished. Painting with a very broad brush here, they don't want these kids to get degrees so they can do something after college. They want them to remain eligible, so they could play, so the coaches and schools can win, so they can keep the money train going.

edit: I was out of the country for a couple weeks and only did some skimming when I got home. Were there a lot of people here who wanted the book thrown at Gurley because he made some money signing autographs?

[Dutch]

Oh, I see how it is...Mississippi State is finally relevant and we want to trash the whole system.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Isn't the obvious answer that we stop the practice of stopping kids working in the NFL and NBA at the age of 18 like they could in almost any other industry in the US?

We don't like that because we feel it dilutes the pro product and we like seeing the best athletes go to our alma maters, but the problem of fake student athletes goes away almost immediately. Let the kids who want to earn a degree earn a degree and the kids who want a shot at getting paid getting paid.

I don't think that is the case at all.

It isn't as if the only dumb ones are the really talented ones. There are plenty of players who will never sniff a pro career who skate along because they play a sport. Those guys will still attend school and skate on by with or without the Fab Melos of the world.

[flounder]

They may not make a university student out of an athlete, but if they can teach him to read and write, maybe he can work at the post office rather than as a garbageman when he gets through with his athletic career.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

But I want the coaches and administrators punished. Painting with a very broad brush here, they don't want these kids to get degrees so they can do something after college. They want them to remain eligible, so they could play, so the coaches and schools can win, so they can keep the money train going.

And some professors/admins want classes like those at UNC to exist/continue so they can justify their own spot on the payroll.

This did not begin as some sort of "hey, let's help Roy Williams" scheme.

[Solecismic]

It's a bizarre system where we suspend a kid for a year because he signed autographs for money, but we do nothing about eligibility maintained for taking imaginary classes.

The NCAA is an easy target because it's an institution designed to grant credibility to a system that lacks credibility.

We want the image of college athletics as some sort of noble amateur production. Students could be one of us. And often, they are, though it's unlikely in the major sports.

But television expanded football and basketball into billion-dollar territory. Recruiting is sophisticated and relentless. No one is going to tell a football coach who spent weeks of work attracting a 17-year-old half-way across the country who can run a 4.3 and break countless tackles that the kid is just a little bit shy of meeting the university's academic standards.

UNC stopped playing the game and allowed an administrator to do whatever was necessary to maintain paper eligibility. When Minnesota did this on a smaller scale (limited to one sport), the Golden Gophers had to forfeit six years' worth of games.

Part of me is sympathetic to Ben's argument. I was a sportswriter in college, and I knew kids who were recruited for athletics, knew they weren't quite good enough for the pros, and took the opportunity to get a degree and set themselves up for life. Good people. Stories that make you proud of the system.

But why athletics, then? Why should athletics replace a scholarship system designed specifically to find intelligent kids struggling in difficult environments?

As much as I love sports and find that the block M from Michigan is somewhat imprinted on my DNA, I can't rationalize what the NCAA has become.

The NCAA has come down harshly on kids for signing autographs and trading memorabilia for tattoos, of all things. We look at these examples as somehow related to integrity.

What UNC did makes the 1980s SMU violations look like nothing by comparison. And, sadly, while UNC took it further, I'm sure it's not the only example of widespread academic fraud out there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Students could be one of us. And often, they are, though it's unlikely in the major sports.

I'd argue that it isn't THAT unlikely, even in the major sports. I know, lemme see here, 1 current D1 player, 1 soon to be D1 player (fairly faintly, 2nd hand) several current prospects with strong looks or offers, multiple DII or below players ... that's just football. Every one of them is pretty much in the range of "normal", none are at a school where it's a stretch for them to be enrolled under normal criteria. We forget, I think, that most of the players even on a football team are not stars. And those admissions exceptions are harder to come by if you aren't an impact player.

But why athletics, then? Why should athletics replace a scholarship system designed specifically to find intelligent kids struggling in difficult environments?

Because those athletic scholarships are not, and have not ever entirely been, about helping "intelligent kids struggling in difficult environments". The size/scale/scope is different for sure, but the intent isn't all that dissimilar.

As for the "why", for many schools the athletic programs are the biggest connection to the university that some taxpayers will ever have. Take away athletics, see how much support there is among taxpayers for the University System of Georgia (and a number of other states). Think it's bad now? Take away the primary reason people give a damn that said university exists & see how it gets. It's marketing & connectivity, with an element of fundraising (beyond just athletic departments).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

This did not begin as some sort of "hey, let's help Roy Williams" scheme.

You're right. It seemed like it began as some sort of "hey, let's help Dean Smith" scheme .

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd argue that it isn't THAT unlikely, even in the major sports. I know, lemme see here, 1 current D1 player, 1 soon to be D1 player (fairly faintly, 2nd hand) several current prospects with strong looks or offers, multiple DII or below players ... that's just football. Every one of them is pretty much in the range of "normal", none are at a school where it's a stretch for them to be enrolled under normal criteria. We forget, I think, that most of the players even on a football team are not stars. And those admissions exceptions are harder to come by if you aren't an impact player.

I think it's also easy to focus on the physical aspect of being an elite football player (and I'll use that word in comparison to the general population) and overlook that you need a pretty strong level of intelligence to succeed on the football field. Is memorizing a playbook much easier than memorizing historical facts that a kid gets tested on? I'd argue that a kid who has the ability to see a defense lined up across from him and in seconds diagnose it and cross-check that with everything they studied in film and worked on in practice to understand how that meshes with what they are about to run, and possibly change into something better (taking it a step further)...there's no reason that intelligence couldn't be harnessed into being able to get Bs in Communication or History.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

You're right. It seemed like it began as some sort of "hey, let's help Dean Smith" scheme .

Apparently it began as some sort of "let's promote a guy who has no clue what he's doing, nor any interest in doing it, to be department head" sort of scheme.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

I think it's also easy to focus on the physical aspect of being an elite football player (and I'll use that word in comparison to the general population) and overlook that you need a pretty strong level of intelligence to succeed on the football field. Is memorizing a playbook much easier than memorizing historical facts that a kid gets tested on? I'd argue that a kid who has the ability to see a defense lined up across from him and in seconds diagnose it and cross-check that with everything they studied in film and worked on in practice to understand how that meshes with what they are about to run, and possibly change into something better (taking it a step further)...there's no reason that intelligence couldn't be harnessed into being able to get Bs in Communication or History.

Eh, yes & no I think. Some stuff doesn't click the same, at least in my experience with scholar athletes.

Plus, honestly, there's a significant "give a fuck" factor at work there.

[Dutch]

Damn, maybe I should read up on the shenanigans going on at UNC more...I don't suppose losing their regional accreditation is on the table?

UNC's Fake 'Paper Classes' Were Also Popular With Frat Boys - Business Insider

It's so crazy...everybody pokes fun at on-line classes, but...

My very last class at UMUC was an elective (having wrapped up my major and minor work)...so I figured I would take a history class (WWII). Man, I had to read (most of) 3 books and wrote somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-300 pages during the course of that class. They worked me like a friggin' mule and all I wanted was a passing grade so I could get the hell out of dodge...granted I wasn't all-in at that point and I paid the price.

End result: C

That being said...

UNC Athlete Essay On Rosa Parks Gets A-Minus - Business Insider

This is so terrible...overall, I'm pretty upset that people are allowed to get away with that when others have to bust their ass for similar (or less) result.

[JPhillips]

Any class, regardless of delivery method, can be great with the right teacher and a joke with the wrong teacher. That's why peer review and oversight by the Dean's office is important.

I don't think much useful comes from student evaluations, but that's a discussion for another day.

edit: I don't know the parameters for the assignment, and given the nature of the class it probably doesn't matter, but that paper sure looks like a zero or rewrite to me.

[Buccaneer]

Even an alleged up-standing, honor-based institution like West Point wants to keep up with the big boys and their ways

Report: West Point football team recruited high school athletes with booze, women

My son read this thread and I told him one of the great points was how college athletics have become a multi-billion industry and how everyone would do anything (unethical, immoral or illegal) to get and keep a piece of the pie. Even Army (and local Air Force too, once the full report comes out).

As addendum to my experiences at Carolina, I witnessed how Jeff Lebo was recruited on-campus (Dean Smith recruited white PGs) and who was involved (second-hand) in "convincing" him to come to UNC. Don't know who else wanted him but it worked for UNC.

[JPhillips]

Not to mention the 11.2 million in subsidies to the Army athletic department and the 25.5 million in subsidies to the Air Force athletic department. (For some reason Navy isn't in the USAToday database.)

[Grover]

Ex-University of North Carolina Football Player Sues Over Academic Scandal - NBC News

Shouldn't he have had the sense to take classes that would matter?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Grover

Ex-University of North Carolina Football Player Sues Over Academic Scandal - NBC News

Shouldn't he have had the sense to take classes that would matter?

I'll say this as gently as I can.
At many, many institutions student athletes do not get to register for their own classes. An "academic advisor" does the registering, and before general pop students have access to ensure student athletes are in the right section ostensibly to coordinate and facilitate practice times etc.

I've known many kids at many schools who were told they could not enroll in the major of their choosing because it didnt fit the profile.

Its probably one of the more common and unstated reason for tranfers among more concerned students that I have seen.

[Grover]

Ah. Thanks for that, had no idea.

[OldGiants]

To answer the original question, the NCAA will take 3 women's soccer scholarships from NC,and put North Carolina Central on 5 year probation to show they really mean it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Having read a lengthy account of the findings from a NC newspaper, I can't help but be struck by the thought that this sort of thing is likely far from unique, and that it may not always be related to athletics.

Anybody care to lay odds on whether there would be similar outrage though?

If you can't pass college you really are an idiot. It's not hard whether you're an athlete or not. Passing in a challenging major with a high GPA is hard. Passing communications with a 2.1 is not hard at all. You basically show up. I knew plenty of unathletic people who were tracking to graduate with degrees in art history or geography with minimal effort. Just no one cared.

And Casablanca level shocked that grade rigging is going on in major college sports!

[Easy Mac]

Weber State got hit pretty hard for all the stuff that went down at North Carolina.

NCAA places Weber State Wildcats on probation for 3 years - ESPN

[cartman]

NCAA charges North Carolina Tar Heels with five serious violations

No punishments announced yet

[Easy Mac]

I'm sure it will be severe, like not being allowed to give out scholarships to horses for their water polo team.

[Kodos]

Stop! Hammertime...

[albionmoonlight]

I think that it is punishment enough to make the players have to start going to real classes. Very distracting, that.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that it is punishment enough to make the players have to start going to real classes. Very distracting, that.

An obvious competitive disadvantage!

[CU Tiger]

Lack of Institutional Control.
Even for the kangaroo court that the current NCAA is, that is the hardest hit with the pillow paddle.

That said this was all orchestrated under John Swofford's reign, he should feel some pain as well.

[cartman]

Poor UAB. They just announced they are bringing back their football program, then this news is released.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

That said this was all orchestrated under John Swofford's reign, he should feel some pain as well.

I think it is illegal to hit little girls in most states.

[CU Tiger]

I think the ACC should tack on 2 years for good measure...

How does that sound Swoffie?

[Kodos]

Roy Williams and the UNC Tar Heels Can Go To Hell - Off Tackle Empire

This guy in not a fan of UNC, apparently. Kindof a shame that half the final four is comprised of teams that have run afoul of the NCAA.

[Marmel]

So Syracuse received a 1 year post season ban (self imposed in a down year, but with the same record they had this year which got them a tournament invite, but admittedly not as many quality wins as this year). A loss of 3 schollies a year later reduced to 2 a year for 3 or 4 ? years. Boeheim had to give up 100+ wins and was banned for 9 games. Edited to add: They also paid a multi-million dollar fine.

Syracuse offenses:
1) Somebody wrote a paper for Fab Melo. He was suspended by Syracuse for a game mid season, then for the entire tournament, where us and Kentucky were the 2 clear favorites. Cuse lost in the Elite 8 in Boston (home turf). We paid for Fab before the sanctions.

2) a few guys (I think 2 or 3) were paid to work a scoreboard at a YMCA about 30 minutes away from campus by a guy not connected to the team or school.

3) Not being required to have a drug policy, Syracuse instituted one anyway, but didn't follow it when they neglected to notify player's parents on a first failed drug test for mary jane.

Also, Syracuse self reported all of this, let the NCAA go through their entire athletic depart for EIGHT YEARS, and they found nothing else.

So, OK, Cuse messed some things up and paid a pretty fair price.

I will be shocked if the NCAA gives UNC anything close to this for 20 years of academic fraud. But Fab Melo was a dumb shit so whatever....