2017 NBA Offseason Thread

[nol]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I'm hearing Chris Paul to the Rockets on a sign and trade?

Yep, the Clippers are getting back Patrick Beverly, Houston's 1st next year, Troy Williams, and Sam Dekker. Not a bad haul for a sign-and-trade considering I thought he was just going to sign with the Spurs outright.

Beverley's good enough that the Clippers could still make the playoffs, but I wouldn't mind seeing a full rebuild at this point.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by nol

Not a bad haul for a sign-and-trade considering I thought he was just going to sign with the Spurs outright.

How many tens of millions would that have cost him?

[nol]

Oh, it's actually Lou Williams, not Troy Williams. Very good haul considering the last two stars I can remember leaving via sign-and-trade would be LeBron and Bosh to the Heat, and the Cavs/Raptors got squat in return for them. Actually a somewhat interesting roster if the Clippers hold onto Griffin and play him as a point forward, although I'm skeptical enough of Griffin's age/health that I'd just as soon rebuild (ideally would have traded Blake to the Celtics at the trade deadline the season before last for much less than what it will take Boston to acquire Griffin or Paul George now, but that ship has sailed). If the Clippers hadn't signed Jamal Crawford to such an awful contract (remember when everyone thought Austin Rivers' contract was so much worse last offseason?) they'd have had room to add another good player.

Actual trade is Beverley, Lou Williams, Sam Dekker, Montrezl Harrell, Darrun Hilliard, DeAndre Liggins, Kyle Wiltjer (last 3 are just random guys on non-guaranteed contracts to make the money work) and Houston's top-3 protected 1st-rounder next year for CP3.

Originally Posted by Logan

How many tens of millions would that have cost him?

I dunno but I'm sure that information is readily available on the internet. If I were making a list of players who would possibly turn down tens of millions of dollars for a better chance at winning, Chris Paul would be pretty high on that list.

I would guess this makes Kyle Lowry to the Spurs much more likely, and now the Rockets will be another team trying to acquire Paul George.

[Atocep]

All signs point to a rebuild in LA. They didn't add any guaranteed money beyond this year and received several pieces that could be flipped for something of value by the deadline.

Good deal by the Rockets and a great deal by the clippers since Paul had apparently made it clear he was leaving. I don't think resigning Blake makes any sense at all though considering his age and how much he's going to cost.

Might as well continue to follow Doc's plan of making people think is son is a good NBA player for a couple of years and stockpile assets.

[wustin]

how will deandre score now

[Arles]

They could always try the analytic guys' wet dream and let Blake run point forward. I might resign Blake if he doesn't insist on a no-trade.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Logan

How many tens of millions would that have cost him?

$53 million.

Ballmer is rich, they won't be bad for long and they're getting their own arena, have a TV deal and aren't going back to the moribund days of what Clipperdom used to be so...I'm sure a rebuild is fine, it's not like the Lakers are ascendant quite yet. They've reestablished themselves as part of the LA landscape or at least, "A place to get tickets to a NBA game that are cheaper than Lakers tickets." But much like being the 3rd hockey team in the NYC area, there's no reason to leave LA or to mess up the formula too much.

[Ragone]

Originally Posted by wustin

how will deandre score now

Well, we know how he won't score..

[Groundhog]

Can't fault the trade for Houston really, but it's going to be interesting watching Harden and CP3 co-exist.

[nol]

The Rockets don't need the two to mesh together that well to win 50+ games, and when it comes to the playoffs Harden won't be out of gas and Curry would probably have to guard one of the two guys.

[Chief Rum]

Been at work all day. Anything interesting happen?

[wustin]

dantoni can just stagger those two's minutes through out a game so he'll always have an elite playmaker with the first or second unit.

something i bet cleveland wished they could do

[Groundhog]

It's a good problem to have I guess, but I'll reserve judgement on their roster until I see what else they manage this offseason, as right now I'd rate them as maybe threats to push Golden State to 5 or 6 games. They'd probably beat the 16-17 Cavs in a similar number of games though.

And yes, I bet Cleveland wish they could roll out one of the best PGs in the game with their second unit. I would settle for someone who can defend a little, run the team relatively error-free for spurts, and knock down open 3s though. Williams was definitely not that guy.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Been at work all day. Anything interesting happen?

I think we were nearly at the point where recent history had begun to fade away the losing image the Clippers brand had had for a long long time, too.

I expect it to be a fairly short dip this time though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think we were nearly at the point where recent history had begun to fade away the losing image the Clippers brand had had for a long long time, too.

I expect it to be a fairly short dip this time though.

I do, too. I think the Clips go to Blake and say "okay, it's your team. Let's do this."

Then he resigns for massive money and Mr. Basketball goes to work with Rivers to remake the rest of the roster.

Not noted much is the fact the Clips agreed to extend Paul Pierce's retirement deadline so that his contract can be used as part of another trade. That tells me they still have some things to play out.

They want a big wing. They won't have the pieces to go get George, but I can see them getting Iguodola, which has been a rumored possibility. They will let Redick go and deal Crawford in a trade for a better option at SG.

That will put them at Beverly-scoring SG-Iguodola-Blake-DJ, with two high volume scorers in LouWill and Rivers off the bench, and a fairly deep frontcourt depth with Speights, Harrell, Luc Richard and Dekker. Blake will do a lot more ballhandling now, showing skills he has been developing .ore the past couple seasons. If he's smart, he will spend all summer shooting three pointers to get more consistent out there.

This won't win a championship over the Ws of course. But in the summer 2018, a certain MVP PG born and raised in the LA area might become available...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

with two high volume scorers in LouWill and Rivers off the bench

Umm ... Lou will be in Houston.


edit: Yeah, I'm just gonna leave this here so you can have your laugh at my expense. I deserve it.

I have GOT to get more sleep, I really do.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Atocep

All signs point to a rebuild in LA. They didn't add any guaranteed money beyond this year and received several pieces that could be flipped for something of value by the deadline.

Let's just say, not the signs I'm listening to. Even if the goal were to flip players at the deadline, there's almost zero downside (other than the 22nd-richest person in the world having to pay the luxury tax) to re-signing Griffin because with or without him there's too much talent on the roster to lose enough games to be in the running for a really valuable pick. Hell, Lou Williams did enough in half a season that the Lakers needed to blatantly tank down the stretch and get lucky in the lottery on top of that to keep their top-3 pick.

If the Clippers are healthy and keep Blake they should win around 50 games, and even in the worst-case scenario where he gets hurt he'd be making enough money that it would logistically be easy for the Clippers to take on another team's bad contract(s) + some future draft picks.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It's a good problem to have I guess, but I'll reserve judgement on their roster until I see what else they manage this offseason, as right now I'd rate them as maybe threats to push Golden State to 5 or 6 games.

That's about as much as any team in NBA history could ask, and beyond that it's about being able to beat the Warriors if they're not at 100 percent. As the Cavs already showed in the Finals, shooting and hitting a ton of threes is perhaps the most surefire way to mitigate the talent gap, and putting 2 of the top 5 playmakers in the world in a D'Antoni offense is certainly one way of ensuring your team won't have any trouble getting up threes.

And yes, I bet Cleveland wish they could roll out one of the best PGs in the game with their second unit. I would settle for someone who can defend a little, run the team relatively error-free for spurts, and knock down open 3s though. Williams was definitely not that guy.

That would be Patrick Beverley, and if the Cavs had traded Kyrie for a similar offer (Beverley + a few more capable NBA players for depth) they'd be much better. Unfortunately Daryl Morey is smart enough that he probably wouldn't have been interested in such an offer if it were on the table, as the difference between Irving and Paul is immense when you already have an offensive weapon like Harden in place.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

$53 million.

Is it really 53 million? I thought Texas has a way lower state tax so maybe the difference in salary is smaller?

Edit: Just noticed this response is if Paul had signed as a free agent in SA. Somehow Paul can now make way more money since he opted in and is still eligible for the 5 year max.

Edit 2: Ever type the thing you are focusing really hard on not typing. Way to go me.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Technically not a sign and trade, he just elected to take his option year on his pre-existing contract.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by nilodor

Is it really 53 million? I thought Texas has a way lower state tax so maybe the difference in salary is smaller?

Texas has no state income tax.

[stevew]

Chris Paul on 1-3 years...sure. 5-6 years, man, I dunno about that.

[nol]

Originally Posted by stevew

Chris Paul on 1-3 years...sure. 5-6 years, man, I dunno about that.

He's currently worth at least 50% more than whatever he'll make this year, so somehow I think it will work out. He'd have to decline substantially before he's worse than current max players Al Horford and Mike Conley.

[stevew]

36 year old Chris Paul will be making 35-45m a season and I just don't see how he'll be healthy for more than 40ish games.

[nol]

And if that's the case that's the tax you pay for getting one of the top 5-10 players in the league for a hefty discount at the front end of the deal. Chris Paul just had the most efficient season of his career and is surely going to be managing his minutes going forward. $35-45 million a season gets you like 2 rotation players these days.

[Chief Rum]

The more I think about it, the more I see issues for Houston in the long run. Neither CP3 nor Harden like to give up being on the ball, and they are both head strong and used to getting their way. Also, someone said it either up in this thread or somewhere else I read, that CP3 is going to go nuts watching Harden play olé defense. You thought Kobe was mad at Shaq for loafing? And on top of that, they're being coached by an egotistical offensive minded coach who also doesn't care about defense, at least not at the expense of running his system.

Now if they add another star like George, that could change things--but also depends on what you give up to get him. They already sent a lot of their depth to the Clippers.

[nol]

James Harden obviously would not have asked for the Rockets to get someone like Chris Paul (or even Ty Lawson two seasons ago) if he wanted to play on the ball 100 percent of the time, so I don't know where that would be coming from. I guess because he didn't want to dump the ball in the post to Dwight Howard, which to me seems more a testament to his basketball IQ than anything.

[Chief Rum]

Ty Lawson didn't end up staying there long, you note. Sometimes we think we want something but then in practice, not so much.

You have watched CP3 just as closely as I have in Clips land. You know he and Harden are going to butt heads, no matter how much they're professing to love each other right now.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Ty Lawson didn't end up staying there long, you note. Sometimes we think we want something but then in practice, not so much.

You have watched CP3 just as closely as I have in Clips land. You know he and Harden are going to butt heads, no matter how much they're professing to love each other right now.

Sure, but butting heads from time to time and playing well together have almost nothing to do with one another. It's not like we're talking about Kobe circa 2011; CP3 is still legitimately one of the top 5-6 players in the league still and good enough to justify some conflict (and smart enough that if he's bitching at you about something, he's right almost all the time).

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Ty Lawson didn't end up staying there long, you note. Sometimes we think we want something but then in practice, not so much.

You have watched CP3 just as closely as I have in Clips land. You know he and Harden are going to butt heads, no matter how much they're professing to love each other right now.

Im with you. I dont see this ending all that well. Harden LOVES the ball. Chris Paul is an elite playmaker that doesnt turn the ball over so should be possessing the ball a lot more than Harden. Harden has never seemed like a player that likes to defer to anyone. Harden can still score his points but Paul is going to create the opportunities for others to be more effective. Is Harden going to be ok dropping from 10 assists per game to 4-5? I think they are an interesting combination. I felt the same about Wade and Lebron though and it ended up working out with them two.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Im with you. I dont see this ending all that well. Harden LOVES the ball. Chris Paul is an elite playmaker that doesnt turn the ball over so should be possessing the ball a lot more than Harden. Harden has never seemed like a player that likes to defer to anyone. Harden can still score his points but Paul is going to create the opportunities for others to be more effective. Is Harden going to be ok dropping from 10 assists per game to 4-5? I think they are an interesting combination. I felt the same about Wade and Lebron though and it ended up working out with them two.

I think the key difference between Wade/LeBron and CP3/Harden is that LeBron and Wade happened to have been close friends since before they were drafted - hell, they engineered the whole thing together with Bosh. It's debatable but, IMO at least, LeBron was also the clear #1 guy in the league at the time, and the gulf between him and Wade even at that point was greater than Harden-CP3 right now.

Harden & CP3 might work awesome, or they might clash and still clinch the #2 seed. It's an educated gamble, not dissimilar to the Pelicans getting Cousins to pair with Davis, really. There's a lot of overlap in styles and potential for clashes, although CP3/Harden's ceiling is higher. It's a fairly small window they've given themselves with CP3 at his age and with his contract though, and I think they are still at least one major piece in the front-court away from seriously challenging the Warriors.

[nol]

If 'all that well' means they won't win a championship, sure. They might not even make the conference finals because San Antonio could pull something out its sleeve and have an even more amazing team. What it does is not make the Rockets any worse while giving them a much higher chance of upsetting Golden State in a possible matchup (whereas before you could just gameplan around Harden and none of his teammates would have the firepower to do much damage on their own) and not giving away a crazy amount of potentially valuable future draft picks. It's more likely than not the Rockets will add another big-time player, whether it be George, Melo, or Millsap, and then it will make even more sense.

Harden played off the ball so well at Oklahoma City that people criticized the Rockets for giving up too much for him because he hadn't proven he could run a team on his own. Since then you certainly would have a difficult time arguing he's played for a team that would've been better served letting him handle the ball less than 'as often as humanly possible.' Certainly not last season, when the Rockets had the 10th-most efficient offense of all time and only one All-Star player.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by nol

Harden played off the ball so well at Oklahoma City that people criticized the Rockets for giving up too much for him because he hadn't proven he could run a team on his own. Since then you certainly would have a difficult time arguing he's played for a team that would've been better served letting him handle the ball less than 'as often as humanly possible.' Certainly not last season, when the Rockets had the 10th-most efficient offense of all time and only one All-Star player.

I agree with you that it is definitely worth a gamble (especially if you're not bankrupting your future on the gamble), but I think it's valid to question if Harden could go back to playing so well (contently) off the ball after a few years of being THE guy. It's way easier to do so before you start playing a style that gets you to an MVP level.

[nol]

Minnesota is trading Rubio to the Jazz for a first-round pick. I doubt they're making that move unless they're confident they can sign a top point guard like Lowry with the cap room. Also means George Hill is signing elsewhere, and probably Hayward as well.

[nol]

Minnesota is going to sign Jeff Teague for 3 years, $55 million. That's certainly a reasonable deal; Rubio for Teague and a mid to late first-rounder next year is a pretty lateral move talentwise but a shooting point guard is going to be a better fit with Butler, Towns, and Wiggins demanding the ball.

The Clippers did agree with Griffin for a 5 year deal worth $173 million. Don't care enough about the minutiae of the salary cap to know if that's the max, but it's a lot of money. No no-trade clause, so I'm fine with the deal. Blake will definitely have the chance to earn it.

[nol]

triple dola - WHOA the Thunder traded Oladipo and Sabonis for Paul George. Once again, either Boston massively played itself by not offering anything of greater value or Indiana likes Sabonis and/or Oladipo way more than it should. This is the best Sam Presti move in quite a long time; over the course of a year he essentially flipped Serge Ibaka on an expiring contract for Paul George on an expiring contract and Jerami Grant.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by nol

Minnesota is going to sign Jeff Teague for 3 years, $55 million. That's certainly a reasonable deal; Rubio for Teague and a mid to late first-rounder next year is a pretty lateral move talentwise but a shooting point guard is going to be a better fit with Butler, Towns, and Wiggins demanding the ball.

Can you expand on your thinking there? My logic center says Minny would be better off with a pass first PG with all those other ball-demanding players, not a shooter PG who wouldn't pass to them as much.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by nol

triple dola - WHOA the Thunder traded Oladipo and Sabonis for Paul George. Once again, either Boston massively played itself by not offering anything of greater value or Indiana likes Sabonis and/or Oladipo way more than it should. This is the best Sam Presti move in quite a long time.

The weird thing is that it was already pretty much out there that the Lakers were offering Clarkson and Randle and a couple firsts (protected), which on its surface, seems to be a better deal than Dipo and Bonis 2.

As for Boston, fits the pattern. Probably low balled Indy because Ainge is a hoarder and now they get nothing.

[Chief Rum]

My own triple dola...Clips got played by Blake's agent to get him the fifth year.

That said, Griffin is young enough and good enough that the 5th year is entirely deserved, so I'm glad Blake's agent fooled the Clips into doing the smart thing.

[RedKingGold]

The NBA is drunk, someone call an Uber.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Can you expand on your thinking there? My logic center says Minny would be better off with a pass first PG with all those other ball-demanding players, not a shooter PG who wouldn't pass to them as much.

Players like Butler and Wiggins initiate the offense enough that having a shooter who can space the floor for them is probably better than someone whose offensive skills also require them to be holding the ball. Teague played with a similar player in Paul George this past season, and Teague took one fewer shot per game and got 1.9 more assists per game than he did in '15-16. It would have been much better had they gone after Lowry instead, but the fit plus the additional first-round pick (the Timberwolves will need to find another diamond in the rough at some point since Wiggins and Towns will get very expensive very soon) go a long way towards making up for the overall talent downgrade from Rubio to Teague.

[tarcone]

Minny is a team that goes to the rim. They are a bunch of slashers. No outside shooting.
Im pretty sure that is the correct assessment.

[Arles]

Blake is staying, PG to the Thunder, Paul to Houston, Jimmy to Minny. If Hayward stays in Utah, why even have an Eastern Conference next season?

[stevew]

Oladipo to Indiana is a cool territorial draft type move.

[rjolley]

If Boston comes out of this with no Butler, no George, and no Hayward, it's got to be a failure. They should've had 2 of those three with no problem. The assets they've gathered are good, but at some point, you've got to cash them in for proven needed pieces.

[nol]

Originally Posted by stevew

Oladipo to Indiana is a cool territorial draft type move.

Maybe not so much at the money he's getting paid. Oladipo and Sabonis make about as much as George, and it's not like Indiana will be close to as good as they've been the past few years.

[law90026]

Originally Posted by rjolley

If Boston comes out of this with no Butler, no George, and no Hayward, it's got to be a failure. They should've had 2 of those three with no problem. The assets they've gathered are good, but at some point, you've got to cash them in for proven needed pieces.

Even if they come out with just Hayward, and I'm not convinced they will after they missed on Butler and George, that's still a failure. This is their last real chance to go for it coz of IT's sweetheart deal, similar to Curry's deal last season. Next season this chance is gone.

Think Boston ends up as the big loser overall because Ainge doesn't want to deal with others.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Arles

Blake is staying, PG to the Thunder, Paul to Houston, Jimmy to Minny. If Hayward stays in Utah, why even have an Eastern Conference next season?

Next year when Lebron goes to LA we'll really have to ask that.

[larrymcg421]

I think part of the problem is Ainge does not want to give up Brown or the Nets pick for 1 year of a player.

[EagleFan]

Or the problem could be Ainge...

[law90026]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I think part of the problem is Ainge does not want to give up Brown or the Nets pick for 1 year of a player.

Then you don't go after George and go after Butler instead? Just sounds like wanting to get someone on the cheap tbh.