Lebron vs Jordan

[Arles]

I didn't really want to use the current NBA thread, because this is more of a timeless comparison. I've had a few conversations with buddies on this over the past few days and am always interested in the thoughts on this board.

This thread is pretty open ended, but to start some discussion I will throw out some ideas/arguments. One of the things that I haven't seen talked about much is regarding Lebron's game 3 vs. the Celtics and how "Jordan would never have a game like that". I think there is some validity there, but I'm not sure it's a good thing. If Lebron starts out 2-10 and doesn't have his jumpshot (in his mind), I think he would pivot and try to get guys like Kyrie, Love and JR/Korver involved as it makes better basketball sense. If he's not hitting, but Kyrie and Love are - why should he continue to take shots that aren't going in instead of facilitating other guys who have a hotter hand? However, if Jordan started out 3-12, he would just keep shooting. Even if he finished 8-28, he would end up with 25 points and most people would look back on that and say he had a good game (esp during the time). A great example is in 92-93 (at the height of Jordan's powers) against the Knicks in the playoffs. Jordan went for 27, 36 and 22 points in consecutive games (the team went 1-2 in those games). He shot 10-27, 12-32 and 3-18 in those games. That's 25-77 (32.5%) in three games, but it's also 85 points (28 per) - so very few have knocked him. I don't think Lebron would ever shoot that many times when he "didn't have it" as it wouldn't make basketball sense.

So, the question here is should we be giving Jordan a pass on these games (and he had 4-5 each playoffs) just because he kept shooting and hit 25-30 points? One of the things people said was "Jordan would never have 11 points in a playoff game". That's true, but is that a good thing? In the last two playoff seasons, Lebron has had a combined 3 games where he shot under 40%. In those games, he would pivot and get more people involved (only averaged 19.3 PPG) - but the team finished 2-1 in those games. Would we look on him as a better player if he instead averaged 28 PPG in those, kept shooting, but the team went 1-2?

I think there are two different lines of thought here. The positive Lebron angle is that being smart enough to call an audible when you don't have it is probably the better basketball move. If Jordan had leaned more on Pippen, Kukoc and his guards after starting 2-10 in some of those games - maybe they would have won more. The pro Jordan side is that the team did win other games where he shot 30% and had he deferred - maybe they would have lost if Kukoc, Pippen and company weren't ready for the moment. Especially given they relied on Jordan so much at times, having him defer might throw the team in a tailspin.

I think that because there was no real concept of "efficiency" when Jordan played, he gets rewarded for volume scoring at a low percentage and losing (or making the game closer). I feel like if Lebron had Jordan's 3-game stretch against the Celtics (averaged 29 PPG but shot 30%, with the team going 1-2) - he would get crucified (even if they won the series).

[albionmoonlight]

I am in the camp that because of advances in training, nutrition, etc., each generation of athletes is significantly better than the ones that came before. So, in that sense, if you took peak LeBron and put him back in the 90s, he'd do better than putting peak Jordan in the league in the 2010s.

But, comparing the two in their own eras, I still give the (slight) nod to Jordan. LeBron has never had the unquestioned run of "this guy is the best player in the league and he will beat you no matter what" that Jordan had. Of course, my memory might be a bit slanted by shoe commercials from that era.

The best argument for LeBron, I think, is that he's gone on this physically and mentally taxing run at this level for 14 years without a break. That's kind of amazing. Jordan had the break to go play baseball. And then the retirement and return to the Wizards. And he had some injuries early in his career. It is easier to play at an extremely high level when you get those breaks to recharge.

[Kodos]

Lebron vs. Jordan (The Poll!)(2017 edition) - Front Office Football Central

[Arles]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

But, comparing the two in their own eras, I still give the (slight) nod to Jordan. LeBron has never had the unquestioned run of "this guy is the best player in the league and he will beat you no matter what" that Jordan had. Of course, my memory might be a bit slanted by shoe commercials from that era.

Lebron has been the best player in the league since 2009 - and it's not close. He's averaged 25-30 PPG, 6-9 APG and 7-9 RPG on around 50+% FG. Steph had a cup of coffee a couple years ago, but the playoffs showed Lebron was more valuable. And this year's infatuation with Russ/Harden/Kawhi flamed out with you looked at postseason results. Here's his numbers from just the playoffs since 2009:
Year FG% REB AST STL BLK PTS
2009 51.0 9.1 7.3 1.6 0.9 35.3
2010 50.2 9.3 7.6 1.7 1.8 29.1
2011 46.6 8.4 5.9 1.7 1.2 23.7
2012 50.0 9.7 5.6 1.9 0.7 30.3
2013 49.1 8.4 6.6 1.8 0.8 25.9
2014 56.5 7.1 4.8 1.8 0.6 27.4
2015 42 11.3 8.5 1.7 1.1 30.1
2016 52.5 9.5 7.6 2.3 1.3 26.3
2017 56.6 8.0 7.0 2.2 1.4 32.5

I'm pretty sure those numbers are unprecedented in any era. No one else has come close - esp in the postseason.

I'm still on the fence on who's "better", but Lebron has clearly been the best player on the planet every year since 2009. The fact that he only won 4 of the 9 MVPs is more "Lebron fatigue" by the media. Lebron was 2 Assists behind Harden, 2 Reb behind Westbrook - but shot 11-13% higher than both, was better from 3 and averaged a 26-8.6-8.7 with fewer turnovers as well. And he will finish a distant 4th in the MVP.

Lebron is currently graded against perfection every season and every game in the postseason. No one else is held to that standard since 2009. That's why he is clearly the best player.

[JAG]

As someone who only vaguely follows basketball these days, how is Lebron considered defensively?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Arles

The fact that he only won 4 of the 9 MVPs is more "Lebron fatigue" by the media. Lebron was 2 Assists behind Harden, 2 Reb behind Westbrook - but shot 11-13% higher than both, was better from 3 and averaged a 26-8.6-8.7 with fewer turnovers as well. And he will finish a distant 4th in the MVP.

I don't think it's quite that simple. LeBron has better players around him than those guys. I have him as the #2 player all-time, just behind Jordan, but I do think having other all-stars with him does impact things.

Originally Posted by Arles

this year's infatuation with Russ/Harden/Kawhi flamed out with you looked at postseason results

Don't agree with this either. Westbrook averaged a triple-double in the first-round series with Houston. Leonard's scoring, shooting, assists, rebounds were all up on a per-game basis in the post-season compared to the regular season, until he got injured of course. I evaluate all four of the players pretty evenly this year: of course LeBron has been doing it a lot longer and he definitely deserved to be at least a finalist. If you put a gun to my head, I'd have LeBron, Westbrook, and flip a coin between Leonard/Harden for the finalists. I don't think you can go wrong by choosing any of them. What is wrong IMO is the fact that for most of the year is was 'Harden or Westbrook?'. Nothing James did to take himself out of that conversation, other than not be new and exciting like you say.

I definitely agree with what others have said on the longevity. What separates LeBron from almost everyone who has ever played is that's he's been great for over a decade, is 32 and showing no real signs of slowing down. One would think it has to happen soon, but it's astonishing.

[PilotMan]

Every year that goes by now the numbers and performances get better for Lebron. Never, did I ever, expect to see anyone even come close to MJ, but I'll be damned if it's not closer by the game.

[albionmoonlight]

There's that line that Bill James had about Rickey Henderson--if you cut his career in half, you'd have two Hall of Famers

Maybe we need to start thinking of LeBron based on how many HOF careers he's had.

[weegeebored]

LeBron is the most physically gifted player I have seen. Jordan is still the GOAT. This is like judging the greatest QB. Brady would be the consensus pick not only because he's a great quarterback but he's won championships. I don't think he was the best QB of all time. For me that was Marino but that's neither here nor there. Brady has been helped by a great coach/system.

For me it simply boils down to the will to win. Jordan refused to lose. They might have had another championship trophy if Nick Anderson doesn't make that steal in '95. What are MJ's and LeBron's records in the Finals? Pretty much enough said, for me anyway.

And, of course, the eras are different and so is the game. You can't breathe on a guy now without getting a Flagrant 1. The debate will continue.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by weegeebored

For me it simply boils down to the will to win. Jordan refused to lose.

Except he did, 3 times in the first round.

Personally, I think Lebron is probably the best of all time as there is no other player who could do what he has done. He's changed the sport.

[weegeebored]

I think Lebron is 3-5 in the finals, so there's that. And changed the sport is a stretch. I could make the argument that Steph Curry changed the sport more than Lebron. Now every team runs a high pick-roll with guys -- even those playing the 4 -- camping out at the 3-point line.

Ever hear of the "Lebron Rules"? Funny, neither have I. Let's just agree to disagree because this is one of those can't win situations.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Arles

A great example is in 92-93 (at the height of Jordan's powers) against the Knicks in the playoffs. Jordan went for 27, 36 and 22 points in consecutive games (the team went 1-2 in those games). He shot 10-27, 12-32 and 3-18 in those games. That's 25-77 (32.5%) in three games, but it's also 85 points (28 per) - so very few have knocked him. I don't think Lebron would ever shoot that many times when he "didn't have it" as it wouldn't make basketball sense.

2015 playoffs
LeBron games 2/3/4 vs GSW
11/35, 11/34, 7/22
That's 29/91 (31.9%)

same season, games 3/4/5/6 vs CHI
8/25, 10/30, 14/24, 7/23
That's 39/102 (38.2%) but if you take out the good 1 outta 4, he's 32.1%

So, no, we can't really say that LBJ wouldn't shoot that many times when he didn't have it. I think there's still a perfectly reasonable discussion about the ranking of the two, but this particular point isn't part of it IMO.

[stevew]

LeBron is more like Peyton(usually makes the right move) and Jordan is more like Brady(wins titles based on skills and having better surrounding talent)

[dunkem]

The only true star that Jordan played with was Scottie Pippen and was surrounded by a bunch of role players so he was required to do a heck of a lot more.

Lebron was successful only when he played with a bunch of all stars who turned into role players. He had Bosh, Wade, and Ray Allen in Miami while he had Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in Cleveland.

We can't time travel, but I think the true test would be... if you swithed them out would they have the same kind of success? I think Jordan would kill it and then some with a cast that Jamies had. Would James be able to carry the bulls with Scottie and his supporting cast ? I'm not sure about that.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by weegeebored

LeBron is the most physically gifted player I have seen. Jordan is still the GOAT.

I don't think Jordan is the GOAT. I didn't think it when I was wowed by him as a fan, I don't think it now. He was the GOHG (His Generation), but not the greatest.

Allow me to introduce you to Bill Russell. The most dominant and winning leader of a court ever. Period. And I still think Russell is better than Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, etc.

[tarcone]

Jordan played in a time where physical play was the norm. The crap they call the different levels of Flagrant today, was barely called in Jordan's time.
Remember the Jordan rules? Remember the Pistons?

Jordan played at a level no one has reached.

If he played under the rules of today, he would routinely average a double and probably a triple-double.

[hollmt]

It would be interesting to see this conversation in 10-15 years, when the rose colored glasses of the past are taken off (or put on in regards to LeBron in comparing him to player Z in the year 2035) and 'everything back in my day' was better and harder etc.

One has to slightly admit that there is a bit of historical bias and honoring of the past that goes on in sports and athletes, music, movies, etc.

I honestly do not know where I stand and I have had the discussion many times. I do think we are harder on players in the present time though than we are of players in the past, and we give those players the benefit of the doubt way too often.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Jordan played in a time where physical play was the norm. The crap they call the different levels of Flagrant today, was barely called in Jordan's time.
Remember the Jordan rules? Remember the Pistons?

Jordan played at a level no one has reached.

If he played under the rules of today, he would routinely average a double and probably a triple-double.

Good article talking about the comparison from Feb.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2...d-to-head-edge


So pretty much what Lebron does.

Regular Season

27.5

pts

8.6 reb

9.1 ass

1.4 stl

[weegeebored]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I don't think Jordan is the GOAT. I didn't think it when I was wowed by him as a fan, I don't think it now. He was the GOHG (His Generation), but not the greatest.

Allow me to introduce you to Bill Russell. The most dominant and winning leader of a court ever. Period. And I still think Russell is better than Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, etc.

No introduction needed. I have been following the NBA since the early 70s when the league could barely get on television. (Yes, I'm that old.) He was certainly a dominant player in that era and changed the game with his defense, no doubt. But, how many HoFers did Russell play with? Jordan had Pippen and...? Luc Longley? John Paxson? Stacey King? Will freakin' Perdue? Yes there was Horace Grant who was a nice player especially fronting the press when the Bulls ran it. And Ron Harper and Rodman had their moments as well. But Jordan didn't play with Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, the two Jones'...you get my point I hope.

I also present to you an interesting article on Russell -- Overrated Legend . You may choose not to agree with it -- it's a sports argument and someone's opinion -- but you cannot deny the food-for-thought aspect.

[stevew]

Dennis Rodman is a hall of Famer btw.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

If he played under the rules of today, he would routinely average a double and probably a triple-double.

No. Just, no.

You're talking about doubling his lifetime assist rate and almost doubling his rebound rate. I don't see that happening.

[tarcone]

Yes. Yes, I am.

You get mugged and play in an era of "Punch you in the mouth in my lane" type basketball. It was tough for Jordan to get inside. Not thick enough. And the assists come from The guys not getting mugged to the hoop.

[larrymcg421]

Lots of underrating of Pippen and Grant here. Combined VORP of Pippen and Grant for Jordan's first three titles

91 - 10.7
92 - 13.5
93 - 8.9

Even without Grant, Jordan had this for his 2nd trio of titles

96 - 9.8 (Pippen/Kukoc)
97 - 9.4 (Pippen/Kukoc)
98 - 6.6 (Rodman/Pippen)


Meanwhile, Wade/Bosh for Lebron's 4 years in Miami...

11 - 7.4
12 - 4.4
13 - 5.5
14 - 3.5

Jordan had better #2/#3 support in every year but one, and in that year his #4/#5 guys (Kukoc/Harper) posted 5.3 combined.

Lebron's post-Heat teams don't fare much better

15 - 6.2 (Irving/Love)
16 - 4.8 (Love/Smith)
17 - 4.9 (Irving/Thompson)
18 - 2.3 (Love/Korver)

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I don't think Jordan is the GOAT. I didn't think it when I was wowed by him as a fan, I don't think it now. He was the GOHG (His Generation), but not the greatest.

Allow me to introduce you to Bill Russell. The most dominant and winning leader of a court ever. Period. And I still think Russell is better than Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, etc.

Bill Russell is kind of like the Sandy Koufax of basketball. Great player. Hall of Famer. Nowhere close to legend that's been built around him.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Jordan played in a time where physical play was the norm. The crap they call the different levels of Flagrant today, was barely called in Jordan's time.
Remember the Jordan rules? Remember the Pistons?

Jordan played at a level no one has reached.

If he played under the rules of today, he would routinely average a double and probably a triple-double.

Jordan also played when hand checking was legal. He and Pippen use to run full court press hand checking against 6' point guards who weighed 160 lbs. I'd hate to imagine how guards would be controlled by James if hand checking was legal.

The physical play goes both ways with regards to fouls or how good of a defender you are seen as.

I also remember that Jordan beat the Celtics and Pistons once in the playoffs.

General question thinking about LeBron. Has anyone else made it to the finals under 4 different head coaches?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Lots of underrating of Pippen and Grant here.

No kidding

Grant was putting up 10+ Win Shares per season during his prime years with the Bulls and peaked at 14.1 (Harden led the league with 15 this year).

Pippen was probably one of the top 30-40 players to ever play and the perfect compliment to Jordan; especially after Jordan's baseball comeback when he wasn't the same defender he was before.

In '92-'93 the Bulls won 57 games with Jordan. In '93-'94 the Bulls won 55 games without him. That's not a knock on Jordan, but it does give you an idea of just how good his supporting cast was.

On the other hand Cleveland went from 61 wins with Lebron to 19 wins without him. The Heat went from 54 wins to 37.

[Groundhog]

I don't know about GOAT because there were decades of players I never saw play, but IMO LeBron is the greatest player I've ever seen, Jordan included. Jordan was a better scorer, but LeBron is better at nearly everything else.

The whole "the league used to be tougher back in the day" stuff doesn't mean a thing to me - imagine a guy with LeBron's build if he was allowed to hand check guys and play like the Bad Boys-era Pistons. Would've been a bigger problem for the rest of the league than it would be for LeBron.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by weegeebored

No introduction needed. I have been following the NBA since the early 70s when the league could barely get on television. (Yes, I'm that old.) He was certainly a dominant player in that era and changed the game with his defense, no doubt. But, how many HoFers did Russell play with? Jordan had Pippen and...? Luc Longley? John Paxson? Stacey King? Will freakin' Perdue? Yes there was Horace Grant who was a nice player especially fronting the press when the Bulls ran it. And Ron Harper and Rodman had their moments as well. But Jordan didn't play with Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, the two Jones'...you get my point I hope.

I also present to you an interesting article on Russell -- Overrated Legend . You may choose not to agree with it -- it's a sports argument and someone's opinion -- but you cannot deny the food-for-thought aspect.

I''ll read it in a moment, but I was being facetious and unserious about the "allow me to introduce" comment.

Russell's Keys for Me:

* 11 Rings as a player (2 more as a coach). If winning it all matters, and it should, then Russell is big (Oh, i forgot he also won the NCAA championship twice as well, if that counts as winning)

* Equal number of MVPs as Jordan at 5

* Was able to shut down Wilt Chamberlain for the most part, and the most dominant offensive player, arguably ever, certainly of his era, was much less successful in the postseason. (Chamberlain only had one Ring during the time Russell played, and notched another after he retired)



He was also a pioneer and was extremely successful dealing with massive overt racism of the era, and that shouldn't be forgotten as well, while Jordan was embraced as sort of the Chosen One of the game with massive contracts from show companies and such that added to his legacy and hype.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I''ll read it in a moment, but I was being facetious and unserious about the "allow me to introduce" comment.

Russell's Keys for Me:

* 11 Rings as a player (2 more as a coach). If winning it all matters, and it should, then Russell is big (Oh, i forgot he also won the NCAA championship twice as well, if that counts as winning)

* Equal number of MVPs as Jordan at 5

* Was able to shut down Wilt Chamberlain for the most part, and the most dominant offensive player, arguably ever, certainly of his era, was much less successful in the postseason. (Chamberlain only had one Ring during the time Russell played, and notched another after he retired)



He was also a pioneer and was extremely successful dealing with massive overt racism of the era, and that shouldn't be forgotten as well, while Jordan was embraced as sort of the Chosen One of the game with massive contracts from show companies and such that added to his legacy and hype.

Russell may have won the rings but I'm not sure I can think of one category where he dominated Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain vs. Bill Russell Comparison

[larrymcg421]

You lost me at counting rings. Using team accomplishments to define individual greatness is always one of the dumbest things people do in sports.

Russell wasn't even better than Chamberlain, much less Jordan. Even if you look at their playoff head to head numbers...

Russell - 14.9/24.7/4.9/.417 FG/.609 FT
Chamberlain - 25.7/28.0/4.1/.508 FG/.494 FT

I'm a huge Celtics homer, but Russell is a severely overrated player in NBA history.

[PilotMan]

It's not that compelling if an article tbh, but the fact that it's here means it's more relevant than ever.

USA TODAY: Has LeBron passed Jordan for Greatest of All Time?

https://usat.ly/2rESGO6

[Groundhog]

I think half the problem is that Jordan is basically a modern Alexander the Great. It's a lot bigger than what he achieved on the basketball court. That's a massive part of it obviously, but the logo and the shoes... there's never been anything like it before, or since.