The Trump Presidency – 2016

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Can't women cross over to NC or Ten or FL if they want? Yea the abortion laws are ridiculous but there is a solution there.

Our President in Tweet seems prepared to start a war with Iran.

The GA law specifically made it illegal for women to do this.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The GA law specifically made it illegal for women to do this.

Yep. They wanted to make it unconstitutional squared.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

1. They shouldn't have to.

2. I obviously do not know the law, but my assumption is they would/could be charged upon returning to their home state?

1. Agreed, but not really relevant. They can do it.

2. What obligation do other states have to report to Georgia or Alabama that an abortion was legally done within their jurisdiction?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The GA law specifically made it illegal for women to do this.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yep. They wanted to make it unconstitutional squared.

Bingo.

As I said to Lathum, what power does Georgia have to compel Florida or North Carolina or wherever to inform them that one of their residents performed an action which is legal within the state lines of those states? Is Nevada gonna let CA know that I engaged in legal sports betting there but illegal in my own state of CA?

Second, having a part of the law apply to other states, which are out of Georgia's jurisdiction makes it federal, which Georgia does not have the power to do. This will be struck down pretty quickly.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by bronconick

It took Bush a couple months to really get an already bloodthirsty nation post 9/11 ready for Iraq. I wonder if Trump can actually stay focused long enough to really convince anyone that it's necessary. It'd be an absolute disaster given that the only "allies" would be words from Riyadh and Tel Aviv and 120,000 is about 20-25% of what is actually needed.

I would love to know what the activities are that have led to this reaction from the administration. The only problem is I don't trust anything coming from this administration, so I guess knowing what the rationale is would only become an exercise in futility.

[RainMaker]

I guess the hope is that it's a bluff. But Bolton has wanted war with Iraq for decades.

The one thing I did like about Trump was that he didn't want us to get into these conflicts overseas. He campaigned as an isolationist. I know he's walked that back a lot but seeing him go to war with Iran would be a catastrophe.

[Noop]

Maybe I am a cynic but when I hear talk of war with a middle eastern country, I think to myself I wonder who is going to make money off this war.

Moreover, I am baffled by Trump and his antics. I am amazed that he continues to have harden supporters despite all the evidence against him.

These are crazy times.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Maybe I am a cynic but when I hear talk of war with a middle eastern country, I think to myself I wonder who is going to make money off this war.

After 2003, me too Noop.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

1. Agreed, but not really relevant. They can do it.

2. What obligation do other states have to report to Georgia or Alabama that an abortion was legally done within their jurisdiction?

They don't but if a woman is pregnant then suddenly not her doctor may have to report it, document it, etc...

I am obviously not a lawyer, and have no idea how it would work, but I am pretty sure the manipulative people enacting these laws have likely thought this through.

Lets also not forget for a lot of people it may not be so easy to jump to the next state over. Alabama especially is poor. People may not have the ability to get a state over and instead could pursue black market options.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Noop

Maybe I am a cynic but when I hear talk of war with a middle eastern country, I think to myself I wonder who is going to make money off this war.

Moreover, I am baffled by Trump and his antics. I am amazed that he continues to have harden supporters despite all the evidence against him.

These are crazy times.

The Saudis and Israel. Fighting for the Saudis to get more ships through and boost their slave state. Fighting for Israel so they don't have to spend the money or lives to get what they want.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

They don't but if a woman is pregnant then suddenly not her doctor may have to report it, document it, etc...

I am obviously not a lawyer, and have no idea how it would work, but I am pretty sure the manipulative people enacting these laws have likely thought this through.

Lets also not forget for a lot of people it may not be so easy to jump to the next state over. Alabama especially is poor. People may not have the ability to get a state over and instead could pursue black market options.

Meh... feels like a lot of loopholes and unlikely circumstances you're painting. How many can't afford a $20 bus ticket? Or doesn't have a friend who.can drive them.to the border and back? To their doctor "I had a miscarriage and ended up at another hospital with another doctor," followed by confidential etc.etc.

I am not saying you're wrong that it's BS they need to go to these lengths but the ways around it do not seem to be particularly arduous, and prosecution seems iffy at best, and how many DAs are pursuing that when they have enough real crooks to go after?

And that's on top.of the fact that it's almost certainly going to be struck down as unconstitutional anyway.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And that's on top.of the fact that it's almost certainly going to be struck down as unconstitutional anyway.

Don't be so sure of that. IIRC there was a lot of buzz about Roe V Wade being reversed.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

and how many DAs are pursuing that when they have enough real crooks to go after?

It's Alabama. They really don't like women down there.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Don't be so sure of that. IIRC there was a lot of buzz about Roe V Wade being reversed.

That's buzz from desperate Christian hardliners and left-leaning web sites using fear to drum up more clicks from their target audiences. The extremes represent the "squeaky wheel" in today's polarized media environment. Don't buy into it. Roe v Wade isn't being overturned.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's Alabama. They really don't like women down there.

DAs also don't like falling conviction rates or time spent on a crime that falla significantly below murder, rape, robbery, domestic assault, drug trafficking, etc. Unless the defendant is just daft, she will be hard to prosecute, and the DA will be disinclined to pursue it.

[stevew]

Abortion is already basically illegal in a lot of places due to availability of services. It’s going to be taking a bus and then getting a taxi or Uber to a place that provides services and then at least 4-800$ more for the proecudire. Then another $100 or so for a hotel and you’re up to a grand or more. At least.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That's buzz from desperate Christian hardliners and left-leaning web sites using fear to drum up more clicks from their target audiences. The extremes represent the "squeaky wheel" in today's polarized media environment. Don't buy into it. Roe v Wade isn't being overturned.

Maybe, but GOP lawmakers in several states have been open about the plan to pass the most restrictive abortion bills possible in an effort to get a case in front of the Supreme Court so that Roe v. Wade can be overturned. You're willing to assume a lot about the five conservative justices.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

They don't but if a woman is pregnant then suddenly not her doctor may have to report it, document it, etc...

I am obviously not a lawyer, and have no idea how it would work, but I am pretty sure the manipulative people enacting these laws have likely thought this through.

Lets also not forget for a lot of people it may not be so easy to jump to the next state over. Alabama especially is poor. People may not have the ability to get a state over and instead could pursue black market options.

If it happens it will be much more simple than that. A boyfriend or husband will call it in and the police will be "obligated" to investigate.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

DAs also don't like falling conviction rates or time spent on a crime that falla significantly below murder, rape, robbery, domestic assault, drug trafficking, etc. Unless the defendant is just daft, she will be hard to prosecute, and the DA will be disinclined to pursue it.

This is Alabama. They literally came close to sending a pedophile to the Senate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...earing-n788431

It is unclear how many such proceedings have happened since the law was enacted. Walker noted that a district attorney this summer opposed the abortion request of a 12-year-old girl who had been raped by an adult relative, and said it was the first case she was aware of that was decided under the new law.

The girl was 13 weeks pregnant and had just completed fifth grade when she went before a family court judge, according to a court record. The judge approved the abortion on June 27, and the district attorney appealed the same day, arguing that the girl was too immature to make an informed decision. The Alabama Court of Civil Appeals on July 12 ruled in favor of the girl.

Trust me, they aren't big fans of women down there.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

DAs also don't like falling conviction rates or time spent on a crime that falla significantly below murder, rape, robbery, domestic assault, drug trafficking, etc. Unless the defendant is just daft, she will be hard to prosecute, and the DA will be disinclined to pursue it.

Doesn't the DA work for the government? If it comes down from above it will be prosecuted.

I think you are underestimating just how insane they are down there.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is Alabama. They literally came close to sending a pedophile to the Senate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...earing-n788431



Trust me, they aren't big fans of women down there.

Your evidence is a case where two separate courts ruled in favor of the girl?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Doesn't the DA work for the government? If it comes down from above it will be prosecuted.

I think you are underestimating just how insane they are down there.

It's a numbers game. There will be, what, hundreds, thousands of potential abortion cases? Few of which will be open and shut convictions? Which will be prosecuted over more serious crimes and criminals?

I don't doubt some will be prosecuted, but it's just a losing game for the DA, right from the start.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Maybe, but GOP lawmakers in several states have been open about the plan to pass the most restrictive abortion bills possible in an effort to get a case in front of the Supreme Court so that Roe v. Wade can be overturned. You're willing to assume a lot about the five conservative justices.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by stevew

Abortion is already basically illegal in a lot of places due to availability of services. It’s going to be taking a bus and then getting a taxi or Uber to a place that provides services and then at least 4-800$ more for the proecudire. Then another $100 or so for a hotel and you’re up to a grand or more. At least.

So most of your $1000 comes from the procedure, which they would have to pay, whether it's legal in their state or not. If they can't afford the abortion itself, it doesn't really matter if it's legal or illegal for them, does it?

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Maybe, but GOP lawmakers in several states have been open about the plan to pass the most restrictive abortion bills possible in an effort to get a case in front of the Supreme Court so that Roe v. Wade can be overturned. You're willing to assume a lot about the five conservative justices.

Roberts is much more likely to take advantage of the bill(s) to chip away at Roe and Casey, rather than strike it down.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Your evidence is a case where two separate courts ruled in favor of the girl?

You're saying the DA won't care about this. I'm saying a DA in that state fought hard to not allow a child to abort a fetus conceived from incest rape.

They really don't like women down there. And if a DA wants to last, he has to play to the audience.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're saying the DA won't care about this. I'm saying a DA in that state fought hard to not allow a child to abort a fetus conceived from incest rape.

They really don't like women down there. And if a DA wants to last, he has to play to the audience.

It's one case and one asshole DA. Yes, in some of Alabama's back country gumpkin counties, you'll get these on occasion. That doesn't mean that in general this isn't a poor type of prosecution to pursue. It is.

And again the courts basicslly said naw screw you to the DA. So not only did this guy prosecute a loser of a case, he also made it unlikely anyone is going to pursue a similar case, now that a precedent has been established which applies to the whole state. Every time the case is won by the DA, the defendant will appeal and likely win. Every time the DA loses, he will have to consider the likelihood an appeal will fail.

Seems like a winner of a prosecution strategy. Naw, let's just go after slam dunk DUIs and domestic assaults and druggies.

[CU Tiger]

Ive started to reply to this one point and stopped myself about 5 times today because I didnt want this seen as a personal commentary towards you based on our disagreement in the shooter thread.

That said I think its important to post a pretty major quibble here

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why though? We're at near full employment and these jobs are going to be minimum wage ones that no one wants. Not to mention everything will be more expensive made in this country.

Most manufacturing jobs these days, while far from 1% territory are much much higher than min wage. Locally the going rate at the big manufacturing sports are $15/hr to start (double min wage) and topping out in the low to mid 20's.

Again not rich but at least close if not squarely middle class.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

you mean Alabama and Georgia? Because thats what those states are becoming for womens rights.

I love this. The same states that are so worried about over zealous religious rules controlling government are creating over zealous rules based on religious beliefs.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Ive started to reply to this one point and stopped myself about 5 times today because I didnt want this seen as a personal commentary towards you based on our disagreement in the shooter thread.

That said I think its important to post a pretty major quibble here



Most manufacturing jobs these days, while far from 1% territory are much much higher than min wage. Locally the going rate at the big manufacturing sports are $15/hr to start (double min wage) and topping out in the low to mid 20's.

Again not rich but at least close if not squarely middle class.

Is 30K a year really considered middle class?

[RainMaker]

Median wage in the field is $16/hour. And that's boosted a lot by those still in unions. New jobs are unlikely to be unionized. The trend has been to move toward staffing agencies where you don't have to offer benefits and the median wage is just over $11/hour.

If you think it's worth having everyone in the country pay more for stuff to create some low paying jobs is worth it, so be it.

Still think these companies will just move to other countries like they have been when wages went up in China before. So we'd pay around the same for stuff but US companies that rely on exports to China would be fucked.

[RainMaker]

I still think it's weird we're arguing about tariffs. It was a far-left policy that has been roundly mocked by everyone involved in the economic field for decades. Suddenly conservatives hate free markets.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That's buzz from desperate Christian hardliners and left-leaning web sites using fear to drum up more clicks from their target audiences. The extremes represent the "squeaky wheel" in today's polarized media environment. Don't buy into it. Roe v Wade isn't being overturned.

Speaking of a christian hardliner

https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-h...robertson-says

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Is 30K a year really considered middle class?

At $20/hr you are at $41,600.
Two adults working yields a household income of $82k.
In 2017 Median household national average was $59k


And in SC...that's a pretty dadgum nice standard of living. I mean 3/2 1200 SFH can still be bought under $100k.

Teachers start out here at $33k and that's with a 4 year degree.
The average manufacturing job works 51 hours a week according to a recent wage and labor conference I was at.

That's 56.5 hours after OT and equals $44k/yr at $15/hr and $59k/yr at $20/hr per person. Putting single income in the capacity and still hitting that median number.
And for unskilled labor yes I think that's a good income.



And BTW I would much, much rather pay more for some goods and employ US workers than I would pay a higher tax rate and support universal income.

Your point about just offshoring elsewhere is very valid and agreed. And I get it we are moving away from a labor economy to a service/intellectual economy.



But we are seeing real job creation in SC right now.
Im jamming right now to get this retrofit finished up: New business approved by Cherokee Co. Council
That is going to bring manufacturing jobs to a small community and just finished up this one: Wheel Pros establishing new manufacturing and distribution operations in York County | South Carolina Department of Commerce

That's over 500 new jobs brought on shore from Chinese manufacturing. Its isnt an all encompassing solution but its a start. ANd those are just project that one small electrical contractor is working on, Im sure my larger competitors are doing many multiples as well.

Again Im no Trump fan, and he's a moron. But job creation, in my area is better than its been in a long time. People are moving for these jobs and that employs tradesmen, and companies like me are building and upfitting these facilities and that employs tradesmen. Its why i talk about the lost perspective sometimes on here.

The idea of "work from home" or mental work is still a real foreign concept to large majorities of this country. Ignoring that is what gave us Trump.

[thesloppy]

Good fucking luck living anywhere on the West Coast on $30K a year.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Good fucking luck living anywhere on the West Coast on $30K a year.

And that's definitely part of the disconnect right? Cities and states on the "left" coast have talked about massively increasing the minimum wage, and been largely mocked for it, and people have (rightly) pointed out that nobody is paying $4.50 for a Cheeseburger in McDonalds and all that's doing is increasing the speed that these jobs are going to be replaced by robots or touchscreens.

It's nice that manufacturing jobs are coming back in some areas, and the cost of living is still decent enough in parts of the country can comfortably live a middle class life style, but what about places where that is about as far from the case as you can possibly get?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Teachers start out here at $33k and that's with a 4 year degree.

And that's probably why the state does so poorly in education.

South Carolina is 43rd in median wage. So these jobs aren't paying well. And since the state is also near the bottom in people insured, they aren't offering much in benefits either.

And BTW I would much, much rather pay more for some goods and employ US workers than I would pay a higher tax rate and support universal income.

It's the same thing. The higher prices you pay on goods is a tax thanks to the tariffs. And you're doing so to support others maybe getting a low paying job.

You'd be better off paying the higher tax and getting some new bridges, roads, etc out of the deal. Would create better paying jobs and provide something in return to the taxpayer.

The idea of "work from home" or mental work is still a real foreign concept to large majorities of this country. Ignoring that is what gave us Trump.

Minorities. He got a minority of the vote. And Trump didn't get elected based on a far-left economic ideology that was laughed out of existence decades ago.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Good fucking luck living anywhere on the West Coast on $30K a year.

Good luck living anywhere on $30k a year if you want a family. Do people who think this is a good wage plan to send their kids to college or ever deal with a medical issue in their life?

[thesloppy]

Having just gone through a job search in Portland, OR I can tell you there are plenty of people here who still WANT to pay experienced, degreed folks $15/hr or less, but I have no idea where they expect those folks to eat/sleep/clothe themselves for that kind of criminal wage. The average rent in Portland is $1500 a month, rising at a rate of 4% a year.

What passes for an 'Entry Level' job, with the same exact job description can pay $20K/year at one place and $60K at another, largely just depending on the employer's lack of shame or empathy.

[PilotMan]

When did a good middle class life mean two incomes in order to make that happen?

[tarcone]

OMG. You know that is the American way right? Start at the bottom and work your way up. You guys are very entitled.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Are you willing to lose your job? Have your farm or house foreclosed? Let your children miss meals?

Nope, not me. I would do all I can to avoid this. Glad I have options and sorry for the less fortunate.

Is this the primary, overriding criteria for all US strategic decisions?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

OMG. You know that is the American way right? Start at the bottom and work your way up. You guys are very entitled.

How many people making decisions for this country started at the bottom?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So something like TPP?

And why would you be willing to suffer so some people who would slit your throat for an extra dollar on their share price have a global monopoly?

I'm all for TPP. Because Obama was not able to get this done in time before he left, we're left with what we have (voted for).

Yup, sure some rich folks are going to get richer. Is that reason enough to not maintain/enhance our strategic advantage?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Good luck living anywhere on $30k a year if you want a family. Do people who think this is a good wage plan to send their kids to college or ever deal with a medical issue in their life?

So much is broken with the middle class right now it's difficult to use median wage as a sign of a good paying job. At the current median wage housing is eating up a higher percentage of that pay than ever before and there's a reason we've turned to crowd funding for medical bills.

Wage stagnation is a major problem that the right hasn't been willing to accept because they live in a fantasyland where a strong economy and stock market means everyone must be doing well.

The reality of right now is if you're making the median wage as a household you can't run into any health problems, unexpected bills, or much future planning.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Is 30K a year really considered middle class?

Yes, in some locales (albeit on the lower end of the spectrum) and depending on family size.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/24/how-...dle-class.html

Given that the median was $57,617 in 2016, here’s the breakdown of how much money your household has to earn each year to meet Pew’s definition of middle-class, depending on the size of your family:

Household of one: Minimum of $26,093
Household of two: Minimum of $36,902
Household of three: Minimum of $45,195
Household of four: Minimum of $52,187
Household of five: Minimum of $58,347

What it takes to be middle-class also depends on where you live.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

OMG. You know that is the American way right? Start at the bottom and work your way up. You guys are very entitled.

That's not at all the American way. This isn't a meritocracy.

American way is inherit a bunch of money from your parents and pretend like you did it all by yourself.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Atocep

So much is broken with the middle class right now it's difficult to use median wage as a sign of a good paying job. At the current median wage housing is eating up a higher percentage of that pay than ever before and there's a reason we've turned to crowd funding for medical bills.

Wage stagnation is a major problem that the right hasn't been willing to accept because they live in a fantasyland where a strong economy and stock market means everyone must be doing well.

The reality of right now is if you're making the median wage as a household you can't run into any health problems, unexpected bills, or much future planning.

The problem isnt just wage stagnation, its this countries love for credit. Why are credit card companies camping out on college campuses? Surley not because these kids can pay off their debt.

No, the feds set the example; "We are trillions in debt, whats a couple thousand to you?" Well you become enslaved to the credit card companies. Thats the real problem with being in the middle class.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's not at all the American way. This isn't a meritocracy.

American way is inherit a bunch of money from your parents and pretend like you did it all by yourself.

Yep. entitlement

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The problem isnt just wage stagnation, its this countries love for credit. Why are credit card companies camping out on college campuses? Surley not because these kids can pay off their debt.

No, the feds set the example; "We are trillions in debt, whats a couple thousand to you?" Well you become enslaved to the credit card companies. Thats the real problem with being in the middle class.

How else do you pay for college or medical treatments if you are middle class?

Wage stagnation and an increase in costs leads to people needing to borrow to pay for life essentials.