Question - Is Andy Reid a Future HOF Coach?

[Abe Sargent]

Imagine Andy Reid has another couple of seasons for the Chiefs like he's had there, no Super Bowl victories, but continues with the 2 winning seasons of 10+ wins and such, and one run to the AFC Championship before losing.

Then he has an injury like a heart attack or something and has to retire from the sport for good at the age of 60.

Does Andy Reid make it to the HOF?

[rush_27]

It's tough for a coach to get in to the HOF without a bowl win. Top coach, but I say he doesn't make it unless he gets that ring

[BYU 14]

If you compare him to current inductees like George Allen, Marv Levy and Bud Grant he certainly deserves consideration. His record stacks up nicely against theirs and they never won the big one either. Only three losing seasons in his career and 12 post-season appearances, with an NFC Championship, sure.

[stevew]

I was looking for the "Fuck no" option and couldon't find it. He's the jolly version of Jeff Fisher

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by stevew

I was looking for the "Fuck no" option and couldon't find it. He's the jolly version of Jeff Fisher

This is absurd. Fisher has a career record of 173-165-1. Reid is 172-114-1. Reid would have to go 1-51 in his next 52 games to get to the level of Fisher.

Reid has always been a massively underrated coach. His major issue is time management, which is very well documented. The guy has won consistently in KC with very mediocre rosters. When this team goes one and done in the playoffs again, people will rip him, but the reality is this just isn't that talented of a team. He has to use smoke and mirrors to get them to where they are. (KC fans will tell you I hate their team because I talked about how horrible they were a few years ago when they had a great record, they'll forget to mention what happened. I'm NOT hating on the KC roster because they won the division or because they are good)

The question though is Hall of Fame. He has a title as an assistant head coach. He gets to the Super Bowl with this roster? Yeah, he deserves the hall. He caps out at another conference championship? No. I just don't see it.

All things being equal, I'd much rather have Andy Reid as my head coach than Gary Kubiak, and Kubiak has a ring.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by stevew

I was looking for the "Fuck no" option and couldon't find it. He's the jolly version of Jeff Fisher

That's a bit of the stretch. Fisher has coached 5 more seasons, yet Reid has 7 more winning seasons, twice as many playoff appearances, just 1 less win and a winning percentage that is .089 higher. Reid is no Vince Lombardi, but Jeff Fisher is certainly no Andy Reid.

[Suicane75]

I love the jolly, fat bastard, but no, he's not a HOF coach. Don't think it's really close either.

[sabotai]

I see Andy Reid as comparable to Marty Schottenheimer. He's a conservative play caller like Marty was, and his career W-L pct is almost identical to Marty's (a little worse in the regular season, better in post-season)

Maybe he doesn't need a ring to get into the Hall, but without one he'll need to get his post season W-L record above .500 (where it is now) and like Levy, (and if we're keeping this to within the next 2 seasons) he'll probably need to get his team to the SB a few more times to get into the Hall without getting a ring. I don't see the Hall for Andy if we just add two more 10+ winning seasons and an AFC Championship lose to his resume.

[Kodos]

Reid is a good/very good coach, but not a HOF coach at this point.

[QuikSand]

I think Reid deserves a lot of credit for assembling teams that fit well into his system, and generally gameplanning and "coaching them up" to execute well. His W/L numbers are very impressive, and doing it in multiple places reinforces that. No mater his faults, that record is pretty impressive. And I do subscribe to the probabilistic view that his run with the Eagles team could well have resulted in a title or two with just a different set of "dice rolls," rather than requiring a better coach to advance in some of those conference championship appearances.

He also seems to have a resume littered with odd, bordering on stupid, in-game decisions. I think it's pretty hard to say whether this is just a veteran coach accumulating lots of games, where we just remember the bad/weird things -- terrible clock management, absurd playcalling imbalances, and the like. For me, I have to say that these things weigh pretty heavily in my overall assessment -- because they just feel like they are "on him" more than a collective effort.

If he goes down the way you suggest -- some more winning seasons but no titles -- I think he's a pretty clear candidate for the Hall of Pretty Good For A Pretty Long Time, which I guess might be down the road in Akron. Tickets are pretty easy to come by, lines are shorter.

[Carman Bulldog]

He needs another 55 wins and would move into 5th all-time. I think then, and only then, he is a hall of famer, assuming no Super Bowl win. So under your scenario, no. With that said, if he maintains the production he has over the course of his career, that's only another 6 seasons.

[cuervo72]

Looking at the career wins list, it's hard to believe Bill Walsh only had 92.

[General Mike]

Right now, no. I don't know if he necessarily has to win a Super Bowl to be a Hall of Fame coach, because there are guys who didn't win one that I'd put in, but I do think he has to get to at least one more, if not 2.

[BishopMVP]

Should he be? No.
Will he be? Doubtful.

Add a Super Bowl & he's probably in, though I'd still call him borderline. In the absence of a great award/multiple championship resume don't you have to be the best at your job at some point, and when would Reid qualify?

[Abe Sargent]

I hear you. But I think there's something to be said for longevity and success. This is Reid's 18th season in the league, guy has been a head coach for multiple QBs, none of whom were Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, and has just three losing seasons. Shoot, 11 of those are double digit winning seasons. Not just a bunch of 9-7s like some others. Or that one 9-6-1 season he had. He was AP Coach of the Year once.

Now there are lots of Head Coaches who had a great set of players, a HOF QB, and had a strong 4 or 5 year streak with a couple of Super Bowls but could never do that before or sense with that sort of longevity.

Let's compare Reid to a HOF Head coach who also had two successful tenures and won a Super Bowl - Tony Dungy:


In his six years at Tampa, TG also did very well, and had just one losing season. He never had more than 11 wins, only won his division one time. He made it to the NFC Championship with the Bucs just once, and was never AP Coach of the year there. (Or at Indy)

Then he is fired and heads to Indy and gets one of the best QBs of all time at his prime, with a heavily in sync offense. He just had to build the defense. His GM picks up players for his defense to build around

Dungy never has a losing season. They win a ton of AFC South titles, because the division is very weak (I know, I was a fan of the Jaguars during that run). During his 7 year tenure, they make it to the AFC Championship game 2 times, and win once, and win the Super Bowl as well.

Dungy is in the Hallf of fame with a shorter career

Dungy does have a few things going for him. He won a ring with Peyton Manning when Reid couldn;t get his Ring in the Super Bowl with McNabb.

Dungy has just one losing season to Reid;s three.

But that is it.

Reid has had more division titles, more Championship Game appearances, and an AP Coach of teh Year award. He's also built his franchises on guys like McNabb, Smith, Michael Vick post-jail and Nick Foles. These are not a Manning or a Brady or a Brees.

For his Super Bowl win, All Dungy had to have was Manning outduel Rex Grossman of the Bears.

Meanwhile Reid had to go against Tom Brady armed with only a McNabb. And yet they only lost by a FG, 24-21.

So, really, is Reid that much worse than Tony Dungy? Given that Dungy is a HOF QB with just one Super Bowl appearance by a future HOF QB vs a guy who was decidedly not, or the Reid Machine, with great results, high wis, and yet, players that were really overcoached and showed much better results that you would normally expect

I don;t think the longevity, the large winning track recordd and more are just something to be shrugged off.

Imagine one simple question. Given Reid's records with McNabb/Foles/Vick/Smith, what would it have been with Peyton Manning or Drew Brees?

EDIT: Lots of coaches that are great at coaching people up at times, like a Parcells who got a few teams ot overachieve, never had the lasting overachieving success of a Reid. Now there was one year when it all fell apart - 2012 and that 4-12 season. Yuck. Got him fired. I'm not sure if they are connected, and if it matters, but to be fair, his son committed suicide earlier that year as well. Did that impact him? I don't know. But you have to wonder.

Given what he has to work with, his longevity and success is incredible.

[SteveMax58]

Good case you made Abe!

I agree he is a highly underrated coach that always has his teams in contention. And rarely are those teams bursting with talent.

As a Giants fan, I like to compare what Reid did with what Coughlin did, because they are very appropriate contrasts imo and a lot of people feel like Coughlin is nearly a lock to get in. You have the long-term, consistent winner in Reid who just falls short every season vs. the annual mediocrity of Coughlin only to overcome once every few seasons and perform miracles in the process.

Personally, I have always felt the Giants/Eagles matchups were a contrast in coaching. I also felt that, most seasons, the Giants had the superior talent and yet still found ways to get blown out by Eagles teams that were simply executing a smarter gameplan. So as much as Reid may have made blunders in time management & game flow...those are first world problems (as coaching goes) because you are still in a competitive game. And winning 10+ games most seasons in the NFL tells me Reid can't possibly be any worse than most coaches, even if his brainfarts occur in higher profile games.

So yeah, I think Andy Reid deserves to be in the HoF and ultimately will as history will be kinder to him. Though I'm 50/50 on whether he makes it in during his lifetime.

[Raiders Army]

Xs and Os, he's great. Football coach, he's good. As a developer of young men, he's an absolute failure.

[tarcone]

Using Abes argument about Reid, then Jeff Fisher should be considered a HoF coach.

A coach that was around a long time. Didnt win the big one. Lost a super bowl to a great QB, etc.

I could replace the name Reid with FIsher and you have almost the same resume

Is Fisher a HoF coach?

[cuervo72]

Fisher is only +8 vs Reid's +58. Bit of a difference there.

He probably needs to get to the bowl again, if not win it. He's Allen without the gaudy win pct. 10 years with the same success he'd be Landry without the hardware. Both might come up short.

I do like the Dungy comparison. At the same time, look at Gibbs's qbs and what he accomplished with them.

[Suicane75]

To me this is like the HOF vs HOVG argument that always comes up. If you're telling me that Reid is the equivalent historically of guys like Shula, Walsh, Noll, Landry, Lombardi, Hallas, etc then you're crazy. Hell, the argument to me is whether Parcells, who has two titles, is a HOF coach. I could either way on that one, but Andy Reid? Come on.

[CrescentMoonie]

If winning regular season games is the goal, then Reid is in. I don't think that's the goal.

[Carman Bulldog]

Meh, I'm not really sure that Tony Dungy is a hall-of-famer either, for some of the reasons Abe mentioned.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Using Abes argument about Reid, then Jeff Fisher should be considered a HoF coach.

A coach that was around a long time. Didnt win the big one. Lost a super bowl to a great QB, etc.

I could replace the name Reid with FIsher and you have almost the same resume

Is Fisher a HoF coach?

Number of winning seasons Fisher had - 6 in 21
Number of losing seasons Reid had - 3 in 18

Fisher had 5 years with his second franchise, and had 5 straight losing seasons. With his second franchise Reid had 4 straight winning seasons, with 11+ wins in three of them. # of times Fisher won the AP Coach of Year 0, Reid? 1. # of times Fisher made the AFC or NFC Championship game? 2 times. They aren't even in the same stratosphere. No, the same argument can;t be named. They have very, very different resumes.

[EagleFan]

The biggest frustration I have with him is that in the last half of his Philly career he was so in love with passing that he ignored that the team did better when he ran it more. Take the McNabb/Garcia year. The team was struggling and was passing on most downs. McNabb gets hurt and they changed to a more run heavy game plan and they start to win. Once McNabb come back he seems to forget what was just winning games and goes right back to the plan the team was struggling with.

Then he goes to KC and suddenly he realizes that he is allowed to run the ball; even when the team's starting quarterback is playing.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The biggest frustration I have with him is that in the last half of his Philly career he was so in love with passing that he ignored that the team did better when he ran it more. Take the McNabb/Garcia year. The team was struggling and was passing on most downs. McNabb gets hurt and they changed to a more run heavy game plan and they start to win. Once McNabb come back he seems to forget what was just winning games and goes right back to the plan the team was struggling with.

Then he goes to KC and suddenly he realizes that he is allowed to run the ball; even when the team's starting quarterback is playing.

One of the things I like about the Reid story is that there were two seasons when the teams were lost. They were washed up and done. Both times the teams rallied from really far and won. The Chiefs last year at 1-5 and looked done, and then finished 11-5, and then the McNabb/Garcia year you mention too, when they started 4-1, and then Mcnabb and such fell and was injured, and Garcia stepped in at 5-6, and then rattled off a 10-6 campaign, and even won their division as well.

Guy could rally the team. How many major coaches have been able to bring back a team on the brink that way? Twice? I don;t know, but its an interesting angle.

[TroyF]

Abe, I think you wrote a great piece above in favor of Andy Reid. I think you made a HUGE omission on Tony Dungy though.

Not only was Tony Dungy the first African American coach to win a Super Bowl, he was massively important in getting other minority coaches hired. This includes the guy he faced that day, Lovie Smith. Herm Edwards, Jim Caldwell, Mike Tomlin and Leslie Frazier also come off the Dungy coaching tree.

We don't think a lot about the color when a team hires a head coach now, but when Dungy was hired, things were quite different. Before him you had Ray Rhodes, Dennis Green and Art Shell, but none of those guys were able to get to the Super Bowl.

For those contributions alone, Dungy deserves a place in the Hall.

[tarcone]

Also, You were saying Dungy was the benefit of great players.

Fisher was stuck with shitty owners.

How can you blame Fisher for having inept management? isnt he a great coach for sticking around for 21 years?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Abe, I think you wrote a great piece above in favor of Andy Reid. I think you made a HUGE omission on Tony Dungy though.

Not only was Tony Dungy the first African American coach to win a Super Bowl, he was massively important in getting other minority coaches hired. This includes the guy he faced that day, Lovie Smith. Herm Edwards, Jim Caldwell, Mike Tomlin and Leslie Frazier also come off the Dungy coaching tree.

We don't think a lot about the color when a team hires a head coach now, but when Dungy was hired, things were quite different. Before him you had Ray Rhodes, Dennis Green and Art Shell, but none of those guys were able to get to the Super Bowl.

For those contributions alone, Dungy deserves a place in the Hall.

True true, that's a fair point!

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Abe, I think you wrote a great piece above in favor of Andy Reid. I think you made a HUGE omission on Tony Dungy though.

Not only was Tony Dungy the first African American coach to win a Super Bowl, he was massively important in getting other minority coaches hired. This includes the guy he faced that day, Lovie Smith. Herm Edwards, Jim Caldwell, Mike Tomlin and Leslie Frazier also come off the Dungy coaching tree.

We don't think a lot about the color when a team hires a head coach now, but when Dungy was hired, things were quite different. Before him you had Ray Rhodes, Dennis Green and Art Shell, but none of those guys were able to get to the Super Bowl.

For those contributions alone, Dungy deserves a place in the Hall.

Also, not sure how much it plays into HOF selection, Tony was a player in the NFL and was part of a Superbowl winning Pittsburgh team...although I don't believe he was anything stellar but seems that would add to his overall resume for contributions to the NFL, even if just a minor checkmark.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Also, not sure how much it plays into HOF selection, Tony was a player in the NFL and was part of a Superbowl winning Pittsburgh team...although I don't believe he was anything stellar but seems that would add to his overall resume for contributions to the NFL, even if just a minor checkmark.

No question on that. Thing is, I think he would have eventually got in from what I wrote above, even without a Super Bowl. That just made it happen more quickly.

In 30 or 40 years, the sports history books are going to point to him as one of the most important figures in the history of the game. (obviously, my opinion) I've had the Dungy debate before and it seems like so many people forget the impact he had on increasing minority coordinators and head coaches.

[tarcone]

And dont forget the impact Dungy has had off the field. He has used his postition to better the lives of so many.

I am piggy backing Troys assertion that in 30-40 years he will be the most important figure in football.

[stevew]

Is Cowher a HOFer?

[SplitPersonality1]

I like hum quite a bit, but as things stand now without the ring; I don't think he gets in the Hall.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by SplitPersonality1

I like quite a bit, but as things stand now without the ring; I don't think he gets in the Hall.

I agree. The only ring Reid has was from when he was the QB coordinator for Farve at GB. Got to do more ethan that.

[ColtCrazy]

What sets Dungy apart from Reid (or Coryell apart from Reid for that matter) is innovation. Dungy was a big innovator of the Tampa 2 defense, a defense that was copied and used throughout the league. Coryell innovated the passing attack. What is Reid's legacy he left on the game? He's a very good coach but not a hall of fame one.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

What is Reid's legacy he left on the game?

He invented the timeout.

[Glengoyne]

I voted hell no, but that reflects my personal opinion. I think he gets in. When you aren't talking about players, this is definitely the hall of the pretty good.

I felt like Reid has managed getting two teams to the point of being well above average, and he made it look hard.

[pbot]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Also, You were saying Dungy was the benefit of great players.

Fisher was stuck with shitty owners.

How can you blame Fisher for having inept management? isnt he a great coach for sticking around for 21 years?

I think he stuck around for 21 years due to inept management/shitty owners.

[Suicane75]

If I spent 21 years in the sewer, it wouldn't make me any good at waste management.

[whizkid1950]

Been a lifelong Chiefs fan, and I'm glad he's our coach, but not a hall-of-famer by any stretch. As someone mentioned above he compares to Marty Schottenheimer in a lot of ways: Phenomenal football coach until... they kick off. Loses too many games to teams they should beat due to poor in-game decisions.

[Abe Sargent]

Cough cough

[Izulde]

Yeah, my vote shifts to Yes now.

[Thomkal]

Me too

[JPhillips]

He's very close to Cowher's percentages with almost 60 more wins.

He's a lock.

[miami_fan]

It is amazing how much of a better head coach Andy Reid has become since Sunday night.

[PilotMan]

He's a lot like Cowher. He's been a HC for a long time, had multiple levels of success, just couldn't get the big one. Now that he has it, it validates all the years of just missing. The fact that he's been successful with different teams, and sustained his success across a long time, capped with the jewel, makes him pretty much a lock. I wasn't even sure Cowher was going to get in, but that capstone makes a ton of difference.

[JediKooter]

I say he's in even if he never won a championship. There's only 10 other coaches with 200 or more wins in the history of the NFL. With his current roster, I can see Reid being top 5 in wins before he retires or has one too many double cheeseburgers.

[CrimsonFox]

lol at the haters in the thread

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Miami fan

It is amazing how much of a better head coach Andy Reid has become since Sunday night.

So very much this. A great example of why I detest use of the 'how many titles' issue with assessing the legacies of players or coaches.

[CrimsonFox]