World Politics

[SirFozzie]

https://twitter.com/ksadjadpour/stat...31438924312949

Iran’s Revolutionary Guards helped plan Hamas’s terror attack on Israel, sources from Hamas and Hezbollah, Europe, and Syria told the @WSJ. The Revolutionary Guards worked with Hamas since August to devise the attack, which was praised by @khamenei_ir

Signs I've played too many Paradox Interactive games: I read this and said "Welp, there's Israel's Casus Belli for going to war with Iran"

[RainMaker]

I highly doubt the WSJ has better sources than our intelligence community.

[miami_fan]

Since I was talking about China earlier, I wondered what China thought about current events.

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson’s Remarks on the Escalation of Tensions Between Palestine and Israel

Q: Fierce conflict has broken out between Israel and Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip, causing massive casualties on both sides. Does China have any comment on this?

A: China is deeply concerned over the current escalation of tensions and violence between Palestine and Israel. We call on relevant parties to remain calm, exercise restraint and immediately end the hostilities to protect civilians and avoid further deterioration of the situation.

The recurrence of the conflict shows once again that the protracted standstill of the peace process cannot go on. The fundamental way out of the conflict lies in implementing the two-state solution and establishing an independent State of Palestine. The international community needs to act with greater urgency, step up input into the Palestine question, facilitate the early resumption of peace talks between Palestine and Israel, and find a way to bring about enduring peace. China will continue to work relentlessly with the international community towards that end.

[Edward64]

Sounds pretty neutral, nicely measured to me which is expected.

I looked up India's response. I'm a little surprised at how pro-Israel it is but wiki tells me the ties have been neutral-to-warming with Modi.

Amid reports of Hamas' rocket strike on Israel cities Saturday, Prime Minister Narendra Modi posted on X that he was "deeply shocked by the news of terrorist attacks". "Our thoughts and prayers are with the innocent victims and their families. We stand in solidarity with Israel at this difficult hour," he added.

The External Affairs Ministry has not come out with an official statement so far. External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar and the ministry's handle have only retweeted the Prime Minister's post.

[Edward64]

Live stream on Gaza city. It's evening. Israel has been firing some rockets (but calm now).

LIVE Multi-Cam: Views from Israel and Gaza amid ongoing fighting - YouTube

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

https://twitter.com/ksadjadpour/stat...31438924312949



Signs I've played too many Paradox Interactive games: I read this and said "Welp, there's Israel's Casus Belli for going to war with Iran"

Why would Israel go to real war vs Iran? They could never hold any territory. Tough to tell exactly what's happening on the Lebanon border or parts of the West Bank like Jenin because Hamas and Islamic Jihad have some people up there but leveraging the US's support there and avoiding any outright war while concentrating their firepower on Gaza makes all the sense in the world if the PA and Hezbollah are onboard.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I mean Israel has been doing that and worse for decades now. It's a war, I don't know why images from one side would change much.

The actual devastation from airstrikes will be disproportionately worse but if you don't want to admit why videos of one side killing, kidnapping, and celebrating while parading around women and children as hostages is worse optically cool. Whether it was a miscalculation thinking hostages from them would get countries on their side or they're just idiots who hit a target of opportunity the multinational nature of the music festival is also devastating to Hamas in the public opinion sphere. Attacking just IDF positions would have had a ton of people on their side, even sticking to attacking Israeli communities probably leads to a lot more Euro/Latin countries or the UN pushing to limit any Israeli response more, doing what they did makes it pretty hard for any country to avoid calling them terrorists.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Just blow the whistle and declare that all religion is cancelled.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The actual devastation from airstrikes will be disproportionately worse but if you don't want to admit why videos of one side killing, kidnapping, and celebrating while parading around women and children as hostages is worse optically cool. Whether it was a miscalculation thinking hostages from them would get countries on their side or they're just idiots who hit a target of opportunity the multinational nature of the music festival is also devastating to Hamas in the public opinion sphere. Attacking just IDF positions would have had a ton of people on their side, even sticking to attacking Israeli communities probably leads to a lot more Euro/Latin countries or the UN pushing to limit any Israeli response more, doing what they did makes it pretty hard for any country to avoid calling them terrorists.

You're not winning an optics war with Israel. They have the strongest lobbying groups in Washington and most of the media on their side. They've created an open-air prison for a group of people and committed human rights abuses on a regular basis. Their leaders were bragging on social media today about committing war crimes.

What happened sucks, but it's part of war. You can't be outraged when one side finally fights back with the same tactics as their oppressors. They don't have many options but to fight these types of guerilla wars. As for the location, hosting a rave right outside a concentration camp isn't the best optics either.


Regardless, what would you have done in their position?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're not winning an optics war with Israel. They have the strongest lobbying groups in Washington and most of the media on their side. They've created an open-air prison for a group of people and committed human rights abuses on a regular basis. Their leaders were bragging on social media today about committing war crimes.

What happened sucks, but it's part of war. You can't be outraged when one side finally fights back with the same tactics as their oppressors. They don't have many options but to fight these types of guerilla wars. As for the location, hosting a rave right outside a concentration camp isn't the best optics either.


Regardless, what would you have done in their position?

This is not right at the border.. it's miles and miles (like 10Km+ inside the border)

[RainMaker]

Re'im is like 3 miles from the wall.

[GrantDawg]

What would have done in their position? Oh, I don't know. Gave up on the failed policy of terror many many years ago and have taken one of the many peace plans that they have been offered that would have given them more freedoms and independence and the ability to deal on the world stage. It is not like there haven't been many opportunities for peace shattered over the decades. Not always the Palestinians fault, but also not always Isreal's fault either.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Live stream on Gaza city. It's evening. Israel has been firing some rockets (but calm now).

LIVE Multi-Cam: Views from Israel and Gaza amid ongoing fighting - YouTube

I have this live feed on another, overlapping window. The folks operating it made a bunch of noise, voices etc. and apparently left. Some folks at the chat box said they were leaving the building and speculation is they got some warning about their building being targeted.

There were some artillery/rockets and could see the explosions. But then there was a pretty loud bang, flash of light, and 1 of their 4 cameras went dark. Could also hear people walking on shattered glass. Camera is back up so don't think they hit this building in particular but close enough.

Lots of shouting and some screaming below. Horns or sirens going off.

Shitty situation.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

What would have done in their position? Oh, I don't know. Gave up on the failed policy of terror many many years ago and have taken one of the many peace plans that they have been offered that would have given them more freedoms and independence and the ability to deal on the world stage. It is not like there haven't been many opportunities for peace shattered over the decades. Not always the Palestinians fault, but also not always Isreal's fault either.

Agreed that that policy of terror by both sides of the war is not helping. It certainly does not provide a great working relationship for peace negotiations. I think they should both stop.

Which deal do you think they should have taken? The 2000 deal is really the only one that seemed feasible. And that still amounted to one side stealing the land of the other and then negotiating to give 10% back with some caveats. Perhaps with the position the Palestinians were in, they should have taken it.

But I think many people would reject it, including Americans. If our land had been taken from us and the peace proposal was we got to keep a few states in the Northeast, I think you know where public sentiment would lie.

[GrantDawg]

If we were in that situation, it would be preferable to take that deal than to teach our young boys to strap bombs on their bodies and run into shopping malls.

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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

If we were in that situation, it would be preferable to take that deal than to teach our young boys to strap bombs on their bodies and run into shopping malls.

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I really don't think America would accept a deal like that. Sure, some like you might. But Americans have sacrificed their lives for far less. Heck, we have regular terrorist attacks over things like a gay bar existing.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're not winning an optics war with Israel. They have the strongest lobbying groups in Washington and most of the media on their side. They've created an open-air prison for a group of people and committed human rights abuses on a regular basis. Their leaders were bragging on social media today about committing war crimes.

What happened sucks, but it's part of war. You can't be outraged when one side finally fights back with the same tactics as their oppressors. They don't have many options but to fight these types of guerilla wars. As for the location, hosting a rave right outside a concentration camp isn't the best optics either.


Regardless, what would you have done in their position?

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

What would have done in their position? Oh, I don't know. Gave up on the failed policy of terror many many years ago and have taken one of the many peace plans that they have been offered that would have given them more freedoms and independence and the ability to deal on the world stage. It is not like there haven't been many opportunities for peace shattered over the decades. Not always the Palestinians fault, but also not always Isreal's fault either.

Yeah basically what he said. It's not Israel's lobbying groups creating and uploading the videos going around Telegram etc, and we've both heard extensive criticism of Israel and it's government over the years even if it doesn't fit your narrative so you're pretending it never exists. (Much justified, but also a decent amount driven by anti-Semitism or at least "anti-Zionism" in the speakers eyes.) Israel will probably go too far and we'll have a 3rd intifada but Hamas attacked in such a terroristic fashion not a single Arab country, Fatah, Hezbollah, or the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank are willing to join their side at this point and all the rhetoric coming from Europe and the UN is anti-Hamas's actions which it rarely is. Even now Hamas is threatening to execute hostages on video and release them to get the bombing to stop, when the play to get some public opinion back on your side would be to have those hostages killed (or appear to be killed) by Israeli bombing, but they're too dumb and indoctrinated into a cultish echo chamber that hates humanity and celebrates their actions on social media to recognize it.

[Brian Swartz]

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Yeah basically what he said. It's not Israel's lobbying groups creating and uploading the videos going around Telegram etc, and we've both heard extensive criticism of Israel and it's government over the years even if it doesn't fit your narrative so you're pretending it never exists. (Much justified, but also a decent amount driven by anti-Semitism or at least "anti-Zionism" in the speakers eyes.) Israel will probably go too far and we'll have a 3rd intifada but Hamas attacked in such a terroristic fashion not a single Arab country, Fatah, Hezbollah, or the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank are willing to join their side at this point and all the rhetoric coming from Europe and the UN is anti-Hamas's actions which it rarely is. Even now Hamas is threatening to execute hostages on video and release them to get the bombing to stop, when the play to get some public opinion back on your side would be to have those hostages killed (or appear to be killed) by Israeli bombing, but they're too dumb and indoctrinated into a cultish echo chamber that hates humanity and celebrates their actions on social media to recognize it.

It's a war. Israel commits terrorism on innocent civilians on a daily basis. The Palestinians retaliated with terrorism on innocent civilians too. There's no goodguys in this scenario. Just extremists carrying out atrocities against innocent civilians.

Optics don't matter in a war for survival. Especially in one where people are siding based on religion and skin color. And even if it did matter, who tells the story? Israel just executed 3 journalists and 2 others are missing over the weekend. Not like you're going to hear both sides of this one.

And drop the faux outrage over those videos. Israeli soldiers wore t-shirts with a bullseye on pregnant women stomachs saying "1 shot, 2 kills". During the last conflict, Israeli citizens parties on top of a hill as they watched bombs fall on Palestinians. The people running an apartheid state don't get to take the moral high ground.

This is a war. Bad things happen and will continue to happen. The United States should be looking for a peaceful resolution. If that's not possible, they should mind their own business. You don't take sides when both sides are committing atrocities.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Nah, I'm not thrilled with the overall situation or supportive of a lot of the overall Israeli actions but perfectly happy to pick a side in this one. If someone wants to take a stand defending Hamas here and now other people can make their own judgment, no sense arguing more over it.

[RainMaker]

It's also worth noting that Hamas is who the Israeli regime wanted. They iced out Abbas and have propped up and funded Hamas for years. The strategy is that having a more extreme opponent meant no chance at there ever being a Palestinian state.

It's the equivalent of the American government funding the Proud Boys or 3 Percenters because they find it beneficial to have extremists as their opposition. Then acting surprised when those groups carry out a terrorist attack.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Nah, I'm not thrilled with the overall situation or supportive of a lot of the overall Israeli actions but perfectly happy to pick a side in this one. If someone wants to take a stand defending Hamas here and now other people can make their own judgment, no sense arguing more over it.

No one defending Hamas. This is a war between two sides that commit terrorism and human rights abuses. The sides in this conflict are innocent civilians or violent extremists. I don't think Americans should support either violent extremists. If we can't protect innocent civilians, we should stay out of it.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No one defending Hamas.

Apparently you are.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Apparently you are.

No more than you and others defend war crimes, apartheid, and genocide.

Some times, two bad groups fight.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No more than you and others defend war crimes, apartheid, and genocide.

Some times, two bad groups fight.

Hamas shared photos of slain Israeli grandma on her Facebook

Yeah and both sides and all.

Hamas needs to be wiped from the face of the Earth.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Hamas shared photos of slain Israeli grandma on her Facebook

Yeah and both sides and all.

Hamas needs to be wiped from the face of the Earth.

I'm sure you have it wrong. Hamas denies it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egipqa0ZhUk

Hamas' Head of Political and International Relations has told Sky News that no civilians have been killed by the militant group.

Doctor Basem Naim told Sky's Mark Austin that only Israeli "soldiers" were killed.

Dr Naim also said he "100% guaranteed" that any hostages taken by Hamas will be safe.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, both sides.

Video shows Israeli sniper shooting Palestinian as soldiers celebrate | CNN
West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children | Human Rights Watch
'Shoot to maim': How Israel created a generation on crutches in Gaza | Middle East Eye
Israeli Forces Deliberately Killed Shireen Abu Akleh
Israeli military appoints rabbi who appeared to permit rape | AP News

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli...0rifle%20sight.
Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza | Israel | The Guardian

[Edward64]

And it is true we can't be 100% that Hamas did behead a couple soldiers as there is no video. It's possible those are fake bodies ...

Needless to say NSFW (or Home)

Blocked

[Brian Swartz]

Even if there was video we couldn't be completely sure. It's not hard to fake that stuff these days.

[RainMaker]

They probably did. They're a ruthless terrorist group in a war.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, both sides.

Video shows Israeli sniper shooting Palestinian as soldiers celebrate | CNN

So you are equating some Israeli soldiers being vulgar after a shot to what happened what happened to Israeli civilians? It's a 1 on a scale of 1-10 of atrocities. Definitely a 10 on bad taste though.

West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children | Human Rights Watch

I counted 4 incidents in your article. 3 of the 4 were related to "throwing stones, Molotov cocktails or fireworks". The 1 of 4, no other info but no problem in conceding Israeli soldier should be trialed, and if found guilty, be punished.

Lesson is, don't throw rocks, molotov cocktails or shoot fireworks at armed enemy soldiers.

'Shoot to maim': How Israel created a generation on crutches in Gaza | Middle East Eye

See above re: throwing rocks, molotov cocktails or shotting fireworks at armed enemy soldiers

Israeli Forces Deliberately Killed Shireen Abu Akleh

This is does seem legit. It seems the US is investigating (essentially disagreeing with Israel) but going slow.

Israeli military appoints rabbi who appeared to permit rape | AP News

This is a 1 on a scale 1-10 of atrocities. It's not even an atrocity yet, let me know if/when something bad happens.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli...0rifle%20sight.

Yup, bad soldiers. Good thing the IDF condemns it.

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza | Israel | The Guardian

This is an atrocity? I may be wrong but assume the bombs dropping on Gaza is in response to something bad happening to Israel (and their troops) ... like missiles being shot at civilians. Soldiers cheering is a 1 on a scale 1-10 of atrocities.

[Edward64]

Reserved

I've responded to your list. I'll come up with my list tomorrow and let's see how the "equivalences" measure out.

[RainMaker]

I don't care about equivalences because I know Hamas is bad. You're just creating a strawman like usual because you have no defense for what Israel does to innocent civilians.

You know they keep track of civilians killed, right? As well as wounded. You'll notice the wounded is quite high because they figured out that "injuring an unarmed civilian" (shooting their legs) plays better than "killing an unarmed civilian".

Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

And that's not even touching on the human rights abuses of having an apartheid state that imprisons civilians and offers no economic or political options. Or just flat out murdering journalists who report on what happens.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This is an atrocity? I may be wrong but assume the bombs dropping on Gaza is in response to something bad happening to Israel (and their troops) ... like missiles being shot at civilians. Soldiers cheering is a 1 on a scale 1-10 of atrocities.

The argument being made is that Hamas killing kidnapping and/or killing civilians is worse because they celebrate it. That it's a cult that hates humanity and celebrates it.

Having a picnic watching a bunch of people who had nothing to do with terrorist attacks get bombed to pieces seems bad too. Or having your leader gleefully brag about committing war crimes on social media.

Seems like a couple of fucked up extremists in a war.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Seems like a couple of fucked up extremists in a war.

So why are you overwhelming in support of one of the sides?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't care about equivalences because I know Hamas is bad. You're just creating a strawman like usual because you have no defense for what Israel does to innocent civilians.

Thanks for the clarification, appreciate not wasting my time.

But to be fair, your post with the links said below. I assumed you were trying to say "sure Hamas does atrocities but so do the Israelis". Both sides = Equivalencies. So no, I'm not creating a strawman, I'm actually not sure how else I would have read your statement with the links. But no problem, I understand, hard to defend beheadings.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, both sides.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

So why are you overwhelming in support of one of the sides?

I don't have a side in Israel vs Hamas. Just think it's important to know why they are fighting. The fact that 2 million people are imprisoned on a stretch of land with little access to resources or the political process matters. Same with land and homes being stolen by force. It might explain the desperation of those willing to commit acts of terror.

It's not new to history. Militia committed acts of terrorism during the Revolutionary War. The ANC did the same in South Africa. Same with Native Americans and the Old IRA. We condemn the actions of those involved in killing of innocent civilians while understanding the bigger conflict at hand.

The only side I'm on is one that ends peacefully. Where people have a say in their futures and do not have to live under an apartheid system. Where innocent civilians aren't pawns for religious extremists. That might be impossible at this point with how extremist both sides are, but hopefully someday the conflict can be resolved and people can be free.

[GrantDawg]

We understand why they are fighting. We are disagreeing with their tactics. Suicide bombs and taking innocent hostages were not employed by the Americans in the Revolutionary War. You can't compare attacking military targets to attacks on innocent civilians. You are broad-brushing false equivalence to justify terror.

[GrantDawg]

By the way, how was "Hamas who the Israeli government wanted" when they were literally arresting Hamas candidates and trying to prevent Hanas supporters from voting in the last elections? Are you saying they were using reverse psychology of some sort?


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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

We understand why they are fighting. We are disagreeing with their tactics. Suicide bombs and taking innocent hostages were not employed by the Americans in the Revolutionary War. You can't compare attacking military targets to attacks on innocent civilians. You are broad-brushing false equivalence to justify terror.

Correct, they didn't use suicide bombs. They did round up a group of Christian pacifists in Ohio, stole their communion wine to get wasted, and then proceeded to scalp all the men, women, and children. The women and young girls were raped before having their heads caved in with an axe.

And Washington didn't get the name "town destroyer" for nothing. He had troops go through Iroquois lands and destroy every village they came across. Burn and steal all the crops, kill women and children, and take some hostages for themselves (you can guess what the young women were used for) before executing them. The aftermath was a major famine that wiped out like half the Iroquois population in New York.

Those were innocent civilians. There are many more if you read up on the Revolutionary War. Many militias were not keen on those who wanted to stay neutral during the war and paid the price.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

By the way, how was "Hamas who the Israeli government wanted" when they were literally arresting Hamas candidates and trying to prevent Hanas supporters from voting in the last elections? Are you saying they were using reverse psychology of some sort?

Abbas is seen as the bigger threat toward a Palestinian state becoming a reality. He's more moderate and pragmatic. A guy who could sway public opinion toward a Palestinian state.

So the strategy of Netanyahu and his party has been to prop up Hamas. They let Qatar funnel money in to Gaza and they massively increased work permits in Gaza while ignoring the West Bank. Basically split the Palestinians in two.

Netanyahu has been pretty open about this since taking power. Quoted as saying "those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state". His party has spoken about this a lot too, including in recent days. They wanted a stronger Hamas.

As for elections, that was almost 20 years ago when Israel had a more moderate leader that was open to a Palestinian state.

[GrantDawg]

So every atrocity is terrorism? No. It is not. I never suggested the US has been innocent of war crimes. Nor have suggested Israel is innocent. You are reaching for equivalencies though.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

You are reaching for equivalencies though.

That's how I'm reading it, so I'm confused. But maybe it's the definition of "equivalencies" or "both sides"?

To be clear, I'm absolutely for discussing "equivalencies" and "both sides" in any discussion.

[Flasch186]

Starting to wonder if this should be moved to Edwards thread….


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[Edward64]

Possibly. I'm open to it ...

But IMO the debate has been pretty good. There has been a hint of sarcasm but nothing spiteful like the pre 9/19 levels.

This is how it should be. An exchange of ideas & opinions, not cheap shots and accusations.

[Flasch186]

Except it’s starting to not be about world politics and starting to be about Edwards discussion points which is when the discussion should be moved imo


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[Edward64]

Hey, I was just sharing live streams and I didn't start this debate.

You have Rainmaker & GrantDawg as the primary culprits.

Regardless, still a good sharing of opinions & POVs, no attacks or spiteful sarcasm discussion ... yet. Wonder why that is?

[Flasch186]

🤦‍♂️


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[GrantDawg]

It looks like the failure to be prepared and allow this attack to happen wasn't Trump or Biden, but Israel and its fixation on culture war issues. Sound familiar?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-intelligence/

[GrantDawg]

But you know. Both sides.

French journalist confirms Hamas terrorists beheaded babies at Kfar Aza, sourcing includes "courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see / agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies." https://t.co/rZ6nqLmcZh pic.twitter.com/vJ9TTP5bbW

— Matthew Gertz (@MattGertz) October 10, 2023

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So every atrocity is terrorism? No. It is not. I never suggested the US has been innocent of war crimes. Nor have suggested Israel is innocent. You are reaching for equivalencies though.

No, you seemed to imply that the killing of civilians was unique to Hamas. Just pointing out that countless oppressed groups do it and Israel is a much bigger culprit of murdering innocent civilians and taking hostages.