Invasion of Ukraine

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

For taxpayers yes, but this was always about funneling money to defense companies now that the Afghanistan gravy train is over.




Trump was already President and none of this happened. And if you truly thought Russia was a threat to the West, why aren't we sending in troops and fighting the war ourselves? Why isn't NATO fighting to protect Ukraine? Why trust an inferior military relying on forcing people to fight for them the option to stop this? You can't say they're an existential threat to the United States and then not take it seriously.

You are totally right. Putin completely planned and prepared this invasion all during Biden’s first year in office. It wasn’t at all during the four years where the orange man was only interesting in his friend. He totally won’t do that again with his buddy taking the heat off of him for four more years.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dubb93

You are totally right. Putin completely planned and prepared this invasion all during Biden’s first year in office. It wasn’t at all during the four years where the orange man was only interesting in his friend. He totally won’t do that again with his buddy taking the heat off of him for four more years.

He also did it in 2014 when Obama was in office.

However you want to spin it, the United States has spent nearly half a trillion dollars in Ukraine who is losing the war. So even if you think this is some righteous crusade, Biden failed like he always does. Come up with a better plan.

[Edward64]

Dead.

“Kirillov was a war criminal and an absolutely legitimate target, as he gave orders to use banned chemical substances against the Ukrainian military,” the source told CNN. “Such an inglorious end awaits all those who kill Ukrainians. Retribution for war crimes is inevitable.”

Also reports of NK troops now engaged in fighting (and dying). There's been slow escalation over the past 3 years and will continue.

I'm rooting for a compromise to end this and hope Trump can pull it off. Ukraine will have to cede territory but they have to get some sort of iron clad security guarantee, buffer zone, NATO invite or like.

[Edward64]

Couple possible threads to post this but here it is

The plane wasn't anywhere close to the front lines or Crimea. Not sure how this happened ...

Increasing speculation in Russian media that the Baku-Grozny Azerbaijan Airlines flight was shot down by Russian air defenses that mistook it for a Ukrainian drone. Footage of the damage to the fuselage. pic.twitter.com/QzsDbCLDtS

— Yaroslav Trofimov (@yarotrof) December 25, 2024

[Ghost Econ]

2 planes down and Trump will still give him any country if he asked.

[RainMaker]

This is happening while Biden is President.

[Edward64]

Yeah, Ms. Kallas and Mr. Macron, you go right ahead and take lead. I mean, that's what you should have been doing all along since Ukraine is literally at your doorstep. I mean, how much support can US expect if/when China decides to invade Taiwan?

No problem in supporting. Feel free to buy our weapons systems & munitions to give to Ukraine. We'll give you the family discount.

EU ready to take lead on Ukraine if US no longer willing, says Kallas – POLITICO

Top European Union diplomat Kaja Kallas said Thursday the EU would be ready to take the lead on supporting Ukraine if the United States was no longer willing.

“I’m really sure that all the other members, and hopefully also the United States, are ready to continue with the support to Ukraine,” Kallas said on her way to a gathering of Ukraine allies in Ramstein, Germany, according to AFP.

“The European Union is also ready to take over this leadership if the United States is not willing to," she said, adding that "we shouldn't really speculate about future U.S. support" and it "is not in the interest of America that Russia will be the strongest force in the world."

[Edward64]

Nice possible deal in the works? If this means US will continue to support Ukraine (behind first line western Europe), I'm all for it.

We've approved $180B+ for Ukraine with $87B "disbursed" (not sure I understand why only $87B) per lock .

It would be good if US got additional stuff in return beyond the initial save western Europe, weaken Putin militarily, study/test out weapon systems etc. Maybe start doing loans also vs gifts/grants (and later Admin can forgive them as needed).

Russia to Trump: Back off Ukraine’s rare earths – POLITICO

Trump announced Monday that he was “looking to do a deal with Ukraine” in which the U.S. would provide military aid for the war against Russian President Vladimir Putin in exchange for Ukraine’s "rare earths."

"We’re investing hundreds of billions of dollars. They have great rare earths, and I want security of the rare earths," he said in Washington, adding that Ukraine is "willing to do it."

I've read in reddit (so take it FWIW) that Zelenskyy is amicable to some sort of deal like this.

Ukraine has not yet commented on Trump's proposal, but sharing resources with allies is part of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s "victory plan" for the war against Russia.

The cherry on top is Putin's response

Russia to Trump: Back off Ukraine’s rare earths

The Kremlin delivers a warning to the U.S. president over his military aid proposal for Kyiv.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nice possible deal in the works? If this means US will continue to support Ukraine (behind first line western Europe), I'm all for it.

Looks like its confirmed that Zelenskyy is okay with the principle.

IMO it's a fair trade (after 3 years and $180B+, and keeping Russia at bay). Hope it happens.

https://meduza.io/en/news/2025/02/04...e-earth-metals

At a press conference on Tuesday, President Volodymyr Zelensky welcomed comments a day earlier from Donald Trump, who said his administration plans to continue sending U.S. military aid in exchange for access to Ukraine’s rare earth minerals. The promised resources include lithium, gallium, and neodymium, which are critical for producing a wide range of high-tech goods. Zelensky said he had already discussed this arrangement when he met with Trump last September during the U.S. presidential race to pitch his “victory plan” for Ukraine.

“We have plenty of [mineral resources]. As you can see, Russia has occupied our territory since 2014. Some of those areas contain large deposits of our mineral resources. We’re open to working on all of this with our partners, who help us defend our land and drive back the enemy — with their weapons, their presence, and their sanctions. That’s absolutely fair,” Zelensky said, fielding questions at a joint press conference in Kyiv with International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Rafael Grossi.

Zelensky also warned that “other countries and other companies” (such as Iran and North Korea) would mine these critical resources if Ukraine’s resource-rich territory is left under Russian control.

The Ukrainian president also confirmed that his administration is now in formal contact with the Trump White House. Zelensky’s chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, has begun talks with Trump’s national security adviser, Michael Waltz, and the president’s team has also spoken with Trump’s special envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg.

[Edward64]

No idea how this will turn out, but it's better than status quo. A peace deal certainly won't give Ukraine everything she wants; it may give Russia most of what she wants; or both parties may begrudgingly compromise on key points.

Regardless, it's good that a conversation is going to start. The current situation is untenable for Ukraine and something will have to give.

The real question is going to be how to secure Ukraine's future. I can handle not being part of NATO (no security commitment from the US) but she's going to need some security guarantees from the EU countries. Maybe word it carefully where she can join NATO in the next Dem Admin.

President Donald Trump said negotiations to end the Ukraine war will start “immediately” after holding a “lengthy and highly productive” telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday morning.

[JPhillips]

Seems like Trump has already sidelined his Russia/Ukraine envoy and replaced him with Whitkoff who toes the line that the war was NATO's fault.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Seems like Trump has already sidelined his Russia/Ukraine envoy and replaced him with Whitkoff who toes the line that the war was NATO's fault.

REPORTER: Do you view Ukraine as an equal member of this peace process?

TRUMP: Ummmm ... it's an interesting question. I think they have to make peace. That was not a good war to go into.

They are going with the Munich 'peace' conference playbook.

[Ryche]

Pretty lousy way to start the negotiations, giving away two of Ukraine's chips for nothing.

[Mota]

Last week I was at the park and a grown up was punching a 5 year old. People were just shocked. I told everybody "don't worry, I'll stop this fight immediately". So then I went, kicked the 5 year old, and he stopped fighting. I'm a real peacemaker.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Mota

Last week I was at the park and a grown up was punching a 5 year old. People were just shocked. I told everybody "don't worry, I'll stop this fight immediately". So then I went, kicked the 5 year old, and he stopped fighting. I'm a real peacemaker.

I hope you also blamed the 5 year old for deciding to fight that poor grown up.

[PilotMan]

It was a bad decision after all.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ryche

Pretty lousy way to start the negotiations, giving away two of Ukraine's chips for nothing.

I don't really get what you want out of this. We've spent hundreds of billions. Over a million people have died (many forced to fight). And Ukraine is still losing.

It was a catastrophic foreign policy failure. Your alternative options seem to be continue to light as much money on fire as possible to enrich a few defense contractors. Or start WW3 over some land in Ukraine that no one here knows anything about.

Ukraine is negotiating at a position of weakness because they're losing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't really get what you want out of this. We've spent hundreds of billions. Over a million people have died (many forced to fight). And Ukraine is still losing.

It was a catastrophic foreign policy failure. Your alternative options seem to be continue to light as much money on fire as possible to enrich a few defense contractors. Or start WW3 over some land in Ukraine that no one here knows anything about.

Ukraine is negotiating at a position of weakness because they're losing.

Holy shit. You just articulated some basic reality fairly accurately. (we disagree over the motivation for the idiotic expenditure, but that'd be quibbling on my part).

I'm in agreement with your assessment overall, despite probably being as hawkish by nature as anyone here.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't really get what you want out of this. We've spent hundreds of billions. Over a million people have died (many forced to fight). And Ukraine is still losing.

It was a catastrophic foreign policy failure. Your alternative options seem to be continue to light as much money on fire as possible to enrich a few defense contractors. Or start WW3 over some land in Ukraine that no one here knows anything about.

Ukraine is negotiating at a position of weakness because they're losing.

Even if you believe that, why would you just give away potential negotiation points for nothing?

[JPhillips]

I guess some things are genocide and some things aren't.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I guess some things are genocide and some things aren't.

Besides not understanding what the word genocide means, your strategy has led to the deaths of over a million people in that region. Ukraine has lost land and is losing the war. All at the expense of hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars.

What is your strategy here? Keep funneling money at a lost cause? Send troops and start WW3? I'm being serious. What's your plan because the current plan has been a failure. At some point you have to take the L.

[JPhillips]

The Russians have repeatedly said they are going to eliminate Ukraine and all the Ukrainians. Seems odd that you demand nothing from them.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Russians have repeatedly said they are going to eliminate Ukraine and all the Ukrainians. Seems odd that you demand nothing from them.

It’s an ethnic cleansing and honestly Rainmaker has to draw a line somewhere and between genocide and ethnic cleansing is as fair as anywhere.

Plus, the Palestinians have a strong military position in Gaza against Israel compared to Ukraine’s against Russia in Ukraine so they are more worthy of supporting than Ukraine is.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Russians have repeatedly said they are going to eliminate Ukraine and all the Ukrainians. Seems odd that you demand nothing from them.

Again, what is your preferred strategy here? The current plan you supported isn't working, so I think we're all ears if you have a new one. What is it you think the United States should do?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dubb93

It’s an ethnic cleansing and honestly Rainmaker has to draw a line somewhere and between genocide and ethnic cleansing is as fair as anywhere.

Plus, the Palestinians have a strong military position in Gaza against Israel compared to Ukraine’s against Russia in Ukraine so they are more worthy of supporting than Ukraine is.

I must have missed the part where our tax dollars were going to Russia to do this. The difference is that we could end the genocide in Gaza immediately. We can't do anything meaningful to help Ukraine that doesn't start WW3.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I must have missed the part where our tax dollars were going to Russia to do this. The difference is that we could end the genocide in Gaza immediately. We can't do anything meaningful to help Ukraine that doesn't start WW3.

So this whole time it’s been about money rather than principles. Got it.

[dubb93]

Good news for you then is that the DOGE Boyz will soon be on the case so you can rest easy.

[JPhillips]

I think the Ukrainians should take the lead in any peace agreement. We have no business giving parts of their country away even if we were to decide to cut off funding.

The Russians could end this war at any time and we should be clear about that. They are the aggressor not NATO.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dubb93

So this whole time it’s been about money rather than principles. Got it.

I'm an American and don't have any say in what Russia does. I do have some small say in what America does.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think the Ukrainians should take the lead in any peace agreement. We have no business giving parts of their country away even if we were to decide to cut off funding.

The Russians could end this war at any time and we should be clear about that. They are the aggressor not NATO.

That's fine, but I don't think they'd get nearly as much in a peace agreement without the United States being involved. Ukraine isn't exactly negotiating from a position of power here.

I'm also still not sure I understand what your plan is. You want us to continue to send them a ton of money but not be involved in anything else? It doesn't seem like there is any plan you like outside of doing the opposite of what Trump says.

[JPhillips]

Russia drone bombed the dome over the Chernobyl reactor.

[PilotMan]

So nice to see the prevailing mentality in government spending is nothing for anyone who isn't white or an american, let's take every penny that provides a service for the public and just give it to the rich, because they promised to make a profit on the government now. Giving into the isolationists just gives more power to the anti-american powers that are willing to spend it. Pushing the global power balance at odds with the US. It's also one of the biggest reasons we've had world peace for decades.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So nice to see the prevailing mentality in government spending is nothing for anyone who isn't white or an american, let's take every penny that provides a service for the public and just give it to the rich, because they promised to make a profit on the government now. Giving into the isolationists just gives more power to the anti-american powers that are willing to spend it. Pushing the global power balance at odds with the US. It's also one of the biggest reasons we've had world peace for decades.

You're 100% right here. A lot of "supposed" US allies are being pushed away and threatened. Their trade is also threatened. So naturally, they are going to build new relationships instead.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So nice to see the prevailing mentality in government spending is nothing for anyone who isn't white or an american, let's take every penny that provides a service for the public and just give it to the rich, because they promised to make a profit on the government now. Giving into the isolationists just gives more power to the anti-american powers that are willing to spend it. Pushing the global power balance at odds with the US. It's also one of the biggest reasons we've had world peace for decades.

You're describing what we have been doing. Hundreds of billions funneled to wealthy defense contractors as over a million people get slaughtered. If you're arguing that we should be building schools or feeding the poor, that's one thing. But this is just a grift for the wealthiest people to steal tax dollars.

[RainMaker]

Vance threatened Russia with military action if they don't push for peace. So I guess you guys are getting what you want if that happens. A much more aggressive approach.

Vance says US has economic and military ‘tools of leverage’ if Russia doesn’t push for peace with Ukraine, WSJ reports | CNN Politics

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Vance threatened Russia with military action if they don't push for peace. So I guess you guys are getting what you want if that happens. A much more aggressive approach.

Vance says US has economic and military ‘tools of leverage’ if Russia doesn’t push for peace with Ukraine, WSJ reports | CNN Politics

Sounds more like empty saber-rattling to sound like the White House is not trying to give Russia everything they want, which with what the President and Secretary of Defense are saying (you know, the guys that can actually do anything), they absolutely are.

[RainMaker]

It appears it's the same deal that was on the table in 2022 minus NATO membership. All things considered, that would be a pretty damn good deal for Ukraine considering how poorly the war is going for them. Zelensky's political career is tied to the war continuing, so I understand why he might have changed his tune on this.

Even if you support the old strategy of sending hundreds of billions to Ukraine, they're running out of people to send into that meat grinder. You either work out a peace deal or send in US troops. I get why you all prefer the latter (none of you will fight), but it would be pretty disastrous for the world.

[RainMaker]

Some of you are going to have to accept that while Trump is bad, Biden was such a disaster on foreign policy that even bad decisions by Trump are going to be an enormous improvement over the status quo here. There was no plan for this war besides funneling money to defense contractors until Ukraine ran out of troops.

[SirFozzie]

x.com

Gangster mentality

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're describing what we have been doing. Hundreds of billions funneled to wealthy defense contractors as over a million people get slaughtered. If you're arguing that we should be building schools or feeding the poor, that's one thing. But this is just a grift for the wealthiest people to steal tax dollars.

You cannot see the forest for the trees. Power is in play, and removing yourself from the board because you insist that it's better spent here than there is simply giving away the game. You can't constantly insist on the purity test for everything, the world isn't that black and white. You play the cards your dealt, and you decide which shitty decision you'd rather have. In this case, walking away from the table is about the dumbest thing you can do.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You cannot see the forest for the trees. Power is in play, and removing yourself from the board because you insist that it's better spent here than there is simply giving away the game. You can't constantly insist on the purity test for everything, the world isn't that black and white. You play the cards your dealt, and you decide which shitty decision you'd rather have. In this case, walking away from the table is about the dumbest thing you can do.

So what's the plan? Ukraine is running out of people to fight. Over a million are dead. I still can't get any of you to actually tell me what you want to do in Ukraine.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

x.com

Gangster mentality

This is literally the same plan put forth by Senators Blumenthal and Graham last year and supported by Biden. I'm sorry you had to find this out but the war was always about enriching wealthy people. Neither party gives a shit about Ukraine sovereignty.

[JPhillips]

Zelensky and the Ukrainians get to decide when and how they negotiate.

Your love of seeing children kidnapped by Putin is really sick.

[RainMaker]

And we get to decide what we do with our tax dollars.

You also mean Zelensky, not Ukrainians. They've suspended elections and have forced conscriptions. Ukrainian citizens actually have no say in this at all.

[JPhillips]

Wow all you care about is money instead of the tens of thousands of kidnapped children.

[RainMaker]

These kidnapped children happened under Biden and under the plan you support. Maybe time to try something different.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So what's the plan? Ukraine is running out of people to fight. Over a million are dead. I still can't get any of you to actually tell me what you want to do in Ukraine.

Tilting the conversation to how to end it doesn't justify your stance on how it started, or what lead us here does it? Nor does it nullify the decades long policy of the USA to be the beacon for freedom and democracy in the world. Where is the world if we'd gone home after WW2 and simply done nothing in the world afterwards?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

These kidnapped children happened under Biden and under the plan you support. Maybe time to try something different.

I'm still shocked at how you justify that this entire event is in any way Biden's fault? Last time I looked he was the leader of a foreign country, and as powerful as it was, he can't just force another world power to just do what he wants.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Tilting the conversation to how to end it doesn't justify your stance on how it started, or what lead us here does it?

My stance is that Russia is wrong and the aggressor. Literally the same as you. Where we differ on is whether pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into a lost cause is sustainable long term. Especially when Ukraine is running out of people.

So again, what plan do you think is best? You keep avoiding this question and I think I know why.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Nor does it nullify the decades long policy of the USA to be the beacon for freedom and democracy in the world. Where is the world if we'd gone home after WW2 and simply done nothing in the world afterwards?

You can't be serious. Wait till you find out what the CIA has been up to over the past 80 years. We even fought some wars since then.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I'm still shocked at how you justify that this entire event is in any way Biden's fault? Last time I looked he was the leader of a foreign country, and as powerful as it was, he can't just force another world power to just do what he wants.

I'm not saying it's his fault, I am saying that his plan failed miserably. Russia is winning, millions have died, and we used hundreds of billions of dollars for nothing.