Ongoing pro/college basketball thread (2023-24)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sources - Anthony Davis out multiple weeks with adductor strain - ESPN

Good thing the Mavs got rid of a guy with conditioning and injury issues for such an iron man.

[albionmoonlight]

That's the most Anthony Davis thing to ever Anthony Davis.

[bhlloy]

Sometimes, the narratives just write themselves

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sources - Anthony Davis out multiple weeks with adductor strain - ESPN

Good thing the Mavs got rid of a guy with conditioning and injury issues for such an iron man.

Lakers!.. Lakers!.. Lakers!.. Lakers!..

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I spent quite a few years following the league very closely, as the college game slowly declined (and as the members of the league became one of the most unlikable collections of athletes ever assembled) that interest faded.

I've seen the contemporary version more sporadically, but if I want to watch women's basketball that struggles with shooting, struggles with coaching, with erratic officiating, I can do that with local high schools.

The officiating is the absolute worst. At times I wonder if it's intentional to be used as click bait? Give it that WWF vibe of how are they going to screw the "good guys" tonight. :mild hyperbole: Don't take it too seriously.

Maybe it's because I only watched Fever games, but with Clark and Kelsey Mitchell they shot the ball better than the Lakers. By a lot. Hell, those two probably handle the ball better than the men too.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Sweed

The officiating is the absolute worst. At times I wonder if it's intentional to be used as click bait? Give it that WWF vibe of how are they going to screw the "good guys" tonight. :mild hyperbole: Don't take it too seriously.

Maybe it's because I only watched Fever games, but with Clark and Kelsey Mitchell they shot the ball better than the Lakers. By a lot. Hell, those two probably handle the ball better than the men too.

I’m sure you are just joking a bit here but Clark shot 34% from 3 which was below the Lakers average. Which means most of the Lakers players shot better than she did while being guarded by NBA players.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'm curious about this, and you're not the only one here who has posted about the WNBA. I've never seen a game.

But when I was in high school, I got into it when the sports info department at Michigan was looking for volunteers and I ran the 24-second clock, among other things. Then I ended up with that beat at The Ann Arbor News for a few years. Newspapers were how I paid for college.

So I appreciated the women's game, maybe more than the men's game. Basketball seems to work better when it's not played above the rim.

It has never caught on, though, until maybe now. Is it Clark? Do people either root for her or root against her, but they won't watch a game unless she's playing? TV ratings seem to suggest that's half the audience, at least. Or it something else?

Clark playing is what got me to tune in. I'm from Iowa, my son was the offensive coach for West Des Moines Valley while Clark was playing HS ball for Dowling. He'll tell you she was great but they won two state titles and she didn't.

I tuned in to the wnba see how she would do when having to face a much higher level of competition. I thought she would be good, and hopefully good +. I underestimated her. She is already a presence and is just starting to learn the pro game.

I don't know how much of the things you see on youtube to root for, or against her are just click bait. When you watch Indiana playing on the road the crowds seem to like her. As the newness of seeing her wears off I'm sure those away fans are going to hate her the way many NBA fans hated Jordan, Bird, or Magic. As long as that's about basketball skill, that is a great thing and it's great for the league.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I’m sure you are just joking a bit here but Clark shot 34% from 3 which was below the Lakers average. Which means most of the Lakers players shot better than she did while being guarded by NBA players.

I don't watch a ton of nba (maybe 2 games in 2024) so my last decent sample size for the Lakers would be 2023. Their team 3pt pct that year was 34.6%. Clark matched that percent, and she's a GIRL. She did that as every team played her like it was game 7 of the nba finals.

The Fever last year shot 35.6 % as a team.

Point being Jon was talking about the poor shooting of the wnba. I was, just going from watching Fever games, thinking they shoot better than he was suggesting. I can't say anything about the wnba as a whole. I can say teams playing vs Indiana didn't seem to have a lack of good 3 pt shooters.

Did I say "by a lot"? Yes. Hyperbole? Maybe, but really just more of a feel from watching games. IOW Jon's feel is the women shoot worse than they do. Mine feeling was, at least between Clark and Mitchell (40%), they shoot better than they do. I'm guilty of going by feel, and not digging up the stats before posting. Having said that I think my feeling the women are NOT poor shooters stands.

[Kodos]

Clark’s hit rate on threes is probably a bit lower because she takes so many long threes. I bet if you just count “regular” threes, her rate goes up.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Clark’s hit rate on threes is probably a bit lower because she takes so many long threes. I bet if you just count “regular” threes, her rate goes up.

Sounds like someone needs to tell her that. The Fever would probably be better if she listened.

[Solecismic]

What's absent from all of these discussions, which have been going on for years now, is that women's basketball uses a smaller ball (circumference is 28 1/2" versus 29 1/2" for the men's basketball - diameter of 9.4" versus 9.1" - the rim has an 18" diameter). More room for accuracy errors. The women's ball also weighs a couple of ounces less than the men's ball.

None of this should discredit what Clark has done to develop a shooting range that boggles the mind, but it's a different game and (I hope this doesn't offend anyone - such a political topic these days) there are huge differences in athleticism and size between men and women.

My contention about the 3-point shot is that there is this line at an exact distance from the basket (that's no longer the case since the line is further away now, and there's no room in the corners). When you start treating it like the free throw line and you develop a routine approach for receiving a pass - getting the footwork right, squaring to the basket like you do for a free throw, you can become more accurate from the exact 3-point distance than just about anywhere else.

Of course, defenders know what you're doing and start contesting that spot, so you can't just sit out there and make 20 of them in every game. The fact that teams still take dozens of 3-point attempts, many of them from right at that line, tells you what's going on.

The really great shooters, like Clark, still have a good percentage when they're not right at that line. For most of us, once you get a foot or so in front of or behind the arc, accuracy goes to hell.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Sounds like someone needs to tell her that. The Fever would probably be better if she listened.

I'm pretty sure her coach and GM knew what they were getting when they drafted her.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Clark’s hit rate on threes is probably a bit lower because she takes so many long threes. I bet if you just count “regular” threes, her rate goes up.

The thing is, her percentage actually goes up the further away she gets from the basket, which is why watching her is so insane. He 3pt percentage also went up later in the season when she stopped having to force shots as the team got more in sync. Just to put her rookie career in focus:


"She is the first player in WNBA history to finish in the top 10 in scoring while also leading the league in assists (also first to lead in 3PM and assists). To understand how she truly crushed it on scoring + assists, no player in history had ever hit 650 pts + 300 assists; Clark finished at 769 pts + 337 assists. That is a historic level of offensive generation for her team. She is one of three players who finished in the Top 20 in all five major categories: scoring (7th), rebounds (18th and the #1 guard), assists (1st), blocks (17th and the #1 guard), and steals (15th). The other two were Stewie and Phee."


Next year, she is going to have even more talent around her. My guess is her scoring will drop a little, but her assists and 3pt% is probably going to go higher.

[BishopMVP]

Clark's great and she's not the one anyone should call out because her degree of difficulty is higher than almost anyone's but it's just a fact that the outside shooting has been bad in the WNBA. It's down to 33.8% from 3 last year and the league has never topped 35.3%, NBA is at 36% and has consistently been in that range for 20+ years despite the massively increasing rate of them in recent years. People hate men's teams who shoot 3's poorly too, it's only Washington and Orlando shooting below the WNBA's league average and those aren't offenses I'm excited to watch either.

(Also seriously how is Orlando's 3pt shooting % still falling? 3rd worst is at 34%, Washington at 33.1%, the Magic all the way down at 30.4%. They could desperately use a Khris Middleton buyout deal or something, it's ruining that team more than the injuries have.)

The compilations of bad finishing or layups I've ever seen have mainly been Angel Reese lowlight reels. That woman gets too much hate for things she shouldn't but she really is a bad finisher and shooter for how good of a player she is. Kind of crazy she can still positively impact her team so much while shooting 40% at the rim or whatever it is.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Sounds like someone needs to tell her that. The Fever would probably be better if she listened.

Ah, no. Any coach that would try that should be immediately fired. Their coach last year hinted at this early in the season and was rightly met with a ton of WTF's. The D is pulled out of position just by Clark being on the floor and somebody always having to be close to her. It creates space for others and opens up some of those passing lanes leading to assists for Clark and others, along with many back cuts that lead to easy hoops.

Maybe opposing teams would be wise to not guard her when she's so far away? Pack it in, take away the passing lanes, and dare her to shoot. Yeah, that will go well.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The thing is, her percentage actually goes up the further away she gets from the basket, which is why watching her is so insane. He 3pt percentage also went up later in the season when she stopped having to force shots as the team got more in sync. Just to put her rookie career in focus:


"She is the first player in WNBA history to finish in the top 10 in scoring while also leading the league in assists (also first to lead in 3PM and assists). To understand how she truly crushed it on scoring + assists, no player in history had ever hit 650 pts + 300 assists; Clark finished at 769 pts + 337 assists. That is a historic level of offensive generation for her team. She is one of three players who finished in the Top 20 in all five major categories: scoring (7th), rebounds (18th and the #1 guard), assists (1st), blocks (17th and the #1 guard), and steals (15th). The other two were Stewie and Phee."


Next year, she is going to have even more talent around her. My guess is her scoring will drop a little, but her assists and 3pt% is probably going to go higher.

Those Top 20 category finishes came with a very slow start as she struggled at the beginning of the season. She'll come in this year knowing what to expect and with an offseason conditioning plan.

She was also pretty much three or drive all the way to the rim. The D was get into her on the 3pt line and if she drives meet her at the bucket. Towards the end of the year she started to work on a midrange pullup adding to her tools. She works hard and is just scratching the surface of what she's going to be.

[RainMaker]

I don't think it's as much a skill issue as it is a math/rules issue. 33% from 3 is still a good efficient rate compared to most alternatives. It just looks ugly.

I think the line should be moved back in both leagues so it only becomes an efficient shot for the most skilled shooters or those with the most open looks.

[larrymcg421]

FWIW, she really improved as the season went on and shot .370 over the last 14 games of the season.

[Ksyrup]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Detroit Pistons have a 46 point lead after 3 quarters. In a regular season NBA game. On the road.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Regardless of gender it seems like at a basic level the more you prioritize athleticism and size over skill the worse the product is to watch. Not just because they're less skilled on offense but also because weaker and smaller defenders allow more time and space for others to be creative. But it's really easy to identify the biggest and best athletes and most coaches prefer to think they can coach up anyone with the athletic tools and oftentimes that defensive floor is enough to win/be competitive so coaches will always do it. And then my theory on top of that is that you still don't have as many girls play as boys so there aren't as many players with size and skill weeding out the ones who are almost all length and quickness. The refs also seem to allow much more physical defense in the WNBA or D1 women's games, ticky tack fouls aren't fun but neither are star players going 1/19 and teams shooting 22/72 when they win a title game.

Much like it was in the boys game, I think it is less about prioritizing athleticism and size and more about not prioritizing skill development in all players. Ksyrup spoke on this regarding the officiating but it also applies when it comes to a player's skill. Coaching is just beginning to embrace helping girls in developing all of their basketball skills in the same way they do with the boys now. Remember, it was not that long ago that any boy over six foot six inches by his freshman year in was destined to spend the rest the of his days playing the game with his back to the basket. The only girls who played one on one basketball or playground games like 21 when they were elementary/middle school age were the girls who played with their brothers and their brother's friends or in coed rec leagues. Just like a lot of boys in a similar predicament those girls who could not beat the boys physically, learned to develop their handle to get past the boys, passing skills and yes learn how to shoot from beyond "normal" distances if they wanted to score. When they were place in an organized league, they had to fit into a position and a role. Those skills developed on the blacktop were considered much more taboo in the gym when it came to the girls compared to the boys. It is why most of us love the girls/women's game compared to the men's game. More team, less one on one etc. I don't think it is a coincidence that from Hall of Famers like Ann Myers to Caitlin Clark, Paige Bueckers, and JuJu Watkins, the players who we consider highly skilled speak about playing on boys or coed teams or playing with older siblings.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Report is that Mike Woodson has agreed to retire at the end of the season. Hoosiers fans rejoice! As always, Brad Stevens is the guy most people want. Maybe the third time is the charm...


Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

Charlie Brown lines up for the field goal to win the game. In his demeanor, one can see that he has been here before. He's known heartache. He's known total, humiliating failure. Yet here he is, daring to try again. He eyes the goalpost one last time and shuffles his feet slightly. He nods to Lucy. Here's the snap. Lucy catches the ball and places it down. She spins it slightly. Laces out. Here comes Brown, he's winding up for a big kick...

[Kodos]

And Lucy pulls the ball again! Charlie desperately tries to kick it anyway and lands on his back with a tremendous thud. His back is broken.

x.com

Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
BREAKING: Boston Celtics president of basketball operations Brad Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
that he is not a candidate for the Indiana University job.

“I thoroughly appreciate being a Celtic and love the people I get to work with every day,” Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by Kodos

And Lucy pulls the ball again! Charlie desperately tries to kick it anyway and lands on his back with a tremendous thud. His back is broken.

x.com

Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
BREAKING: Boston Celtics president of basketball operations Brad Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
that he is not a candidate for the Indiana University job.

“I thoroughly appreciate being a Celtic and love the people I get to work with every day,” Stevens told @TheFieldOf68
.

He'll be turning this job down until he's 70 years old.

[dubb93]

Why would he have any interest in coaching IU when he runs an entire professional team? It’s silly that his name comes up every time.

[Atocep]

I know the dunk contest is mostly dead right now, but Mac McClung just had one of the best dunks you'll ever see.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Why would he have any interest in coaching IU when he runs an entire professional team? It’s silly that his name comes up every time.

He's an Indiana legend for what he did with Butler, and everyone still remembers when the Indiana job was amongst the best in the world, and that the pull of the job would be enough to send even legendary coaches there..

Plus some would reason he's tired of running a team and wants to get back to coaching.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

He's an Indiana legend for what he did with Butler, and everyone still remembers when the Indiana job was amongst the best in the world, and that the pull of the job would be enough to send even legendary coaches there..

Plus some would reason he's tired of running a team and wants to get back to coaching.

I'm an avid Indiana fan and have been my entire life but the brand is dead. The top recruits in Indiana go out of state. And all the old heads still expect a national championship every year. I know the NIL budget is huge, but it's not going to be an easy place for someone to come in and win. The best bet is to get someone young with alot to prove because it's going to take quite a bit of work to rebuild this team.

[JPhillips]

Wemby out for the year.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Wemby out for the year.

Blood clots.

[sovereignstar v2]

Just watched a Hakeem Olajuwon compilation video. He was such an amazing player; very unique and ahead of his time

[Ksyrup]

Flying back from Ft. Lauderdale today, I just watched the end of the Notre Dame/NC State women's game. #1 ND lost in 2OT. It shouldn't have gotten that far though. NC State had a 3 point lead with 5.5 seconds left and 2 FOULS TO GIVE and used neither of them, giving up a tying 3 at the buzzer to force OT. Got lucky at the end of OT #1 when a foul call at the buzzer was waived off as being a split second after time expired.

What moron coach doesn't have his team use fouls in that situation? I suppose he didn't trust that they would foul before the player was in the act of shooting? Seems inexcusable to me.

[miami_fan]

I have not paid that much attention to the Grizzlies this season but Zach Edey has looked pretty good every time I have seen him. Usually we talk about guys getting stronger after getting into a professional weight training program but Edey looks like he has gotten in better shape in terms of his cardio conditioning.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I have not paid that much attention to the Grizzlies this season but Zach Edey has looked pretty good every time I have seen him. Usually we talk about guys getting stronger after getting into a professional weight training program but Edey looks like he has gotten in better shape in terms of his cardio conditioning.

I've watched about every game of his. He has some struggles with bigs that can bring him out and hit the 3 and some PnR assignments. He's been really solid though in general and does things that won't show up in a box score. His screening and the attention he gets from help defenders do a lot for his teammates. I hope they start to give him some post-up chances, but they are so few and far between. His only hope for offensive output comes from his offensive rebounding. You can tell a lot of the Grizzlies have never played with a dominant big before. They don't know how to use him and throw him some of the worst passes you could throw to a giant.

[Atocep]

So is Jokic having the best season ever by a NBA player?

[SirFozzie]

LeBron James is somehow STILL performing clutch chasedown blocks in crunch time in YEAR TWENTY FREAKING TWO OF HIS CAREER AT AGE 40.



Test that man. Not for drugs.. for the fountain of youth.



https://x.com/JoseLAL23/status/1896425666670919994

[SirFozzie]

dola: While Trump et al looked to be the run away winner for "Chutzpah of the Year", the Mavericks are a dark horse candidate gathering steam.

The Mavericks said season tickets will go up by an average of 8.61% next season and the increase is due to "ongoing investments in the team and fan engagement."

Mavericks raise ticket costs, cite 'investments' in team, fans - ESPN

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

LeBron James is somehow STILL performing clutch chasedown blocks in crunch time in YEAR TWENTY FREAKING TWO OF HIS CAREER AT AGE 40.



Test that man. Not for drugs.. for the fountain of youth.



https://x.com/JoseLAL23/status/1896425666670919994

There's been little to no drop off from ages 38 to 40 for LeBron. Jordan wasn't the same player his last year with the Bulls at age 34, but was still good enough to win a NBA title and MVP, and that's roughly the level LeBron is playing at now. What he's doing is crazy.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Atocep

There's been little to no drop off from ages 38 to 40 for LeBron. Jordan wasn't the same player his last year with the Bulls at age 34, but was still good enough to win a NBA title and MVP, and that's roughly the level LeBron is playing at now. What he's doing is crazy.

Plus he has so many more miles on his "odometer" between Jordan's baseball sabbatical, coming into the league sooner, and being six years older

[JonInMiddleGA]

Tone deaf much?

Mavericks raise ticket costs, cite 'investments' in team, fans - ESPN

edit to add: My bad on the post, didn't see that it was already here until I scrolled up slower

[SirFozzie]

Then Kyrie hurt his knee pretty bad, I wouldnt be surprised if he's out a couple months

Edit;done for the season

[wustin]

Mavs are hard capped under the first apron and have burned up the room to sign 10-day contracts and they used their last remaining two-way slot on Kai Jones who only has like two weeks left. They can't sign any more 10-days until April.

Their active roster last night was only 8 players.

[wustin]

Mavs are hard capped under the first apron and have burned up the room to sign 10-day contracts and they used their last remaining two-way slot on Kai Jones who only has like two weeks left. They can't sign any more 10-days until April.

Their active roster last night was only 8 players.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tone deaf much?

Mavericks raise ticket costs, cite 'investments' in team, fans - ESPN

edit to add: My bad on the post, didn't see that it was already here until I scrolled up slower

Tone only matters if you give a shit about the people you are talking to.

[Ksyrup]

This timeline from the Athletic is brutal:

If you were wondering whether things have gotten better for the Mavericks, they have not. Yesterday morning, we got the news that Monday's scary injury for Kyrie Irving was in fact a torn ACL. He’s out for the season. That would normally be bad enough, but something Luka Dončić could overcome. Except I will remind you the Mavericks made the most inexplicable trade in NBA history by sending Dončić to the Lakers, sans trade demand.

The Mavs are going through it. The Mavs fan base is really going through it. Every bit of goodwill GM Nico Harrison built up is long gone. And it feels like when it rains, it pours asteroids.

Before we dive into how much this injury screws the Mavs, let’s go over what happened just over the last 10 weeks:

Christmas: Luka injures his calf in the last game he’ll ever play for the Mavs.
January 23: Dereck Lively II has a stress fracture in his foot.
February 1: Luka is traded.
February 4: Mavs trade Quentin Grimes to the Sixers for Caleb Martin.
February 8: Anthony Davis debuts for Dallas with a monster game ... before suffering an adductor injury.
February 9: Mavs fans ejected for saying, “Fire Nico,” on the jumbotron.
February 11: Daniel Gafford sprains his knee.
February 25: Luka drops a triple-double in L.A.'s win over the Mavs.
March 1: Grimes scores 44 points for the Sixers. Martin has not played for Dallas.
March 3: The Mavs announce an 8.6 percent price increase for season ticket holders.
March 3: Kyrie tears his ACL.

[Atocep]

Idea stolen from somewhere else, but this is crazy:

Lebron's stats JJ Redick's junior year at Duke: 27/7/7
Lebron's stats JJ Redick's rookie year in the NBA: 27/7/6
Lebron's stats when JJ Redick becomes a NBA starter: 27/8/6
Lebron's stats when JJ Redick is a 15 year NBA vet: 25/8/8
Lebron's stats when JJ Redick is a podcaster: 26/8/7
Lebron's stats with JJ Redick as his coach: 25/9/8

[miami_fan]

It is ridiculous to say but outside of the accomplishment itself, winning the title a few years ago has convinced the Nuggets that Nikola Jokic only deserves to win one NBA title with their organization.