FBCB: I need defensive help!!!

[kingnebwsu]

Okay, so I'm about to flip out. The last several years my team can't seem to play bloody defense. I don't know what to do.

The last 3 seasons I've allowed:
78.4 (this season)
75.6
80.2

My offense has been amazing over the last 3 years:
79.5 (this season)
81.0
82.8

My record over these three seasons is only .500. My teams the last two years have been okay, but this year's team started 9-3 and finished 18-13 and lost in the first round of the NIT.

My current settings are:

Pace 9, Motion 3 (wonder if the pace is tiring the guys out?)
2-3 Zone 100%
4 on press, trap, and double-teaming

My defensive roster is:

 Wright State Raiders Player Defense Attributes

 Name                  Pos    Ht  Wt  PsD PrD Stl Blk Reb PFs Qkn Str Jmp Sta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmund Quevedo        C   6'11" 277   63   7  15  39  69  70  20  75  47  66
Tony Ramirez          C   6'11" 247   59  34  26  19  83  23  25  70  44  67
Colby Quick           SF  6' 7" 245   53  30  61  37  43  65  60  68  54  68
Roger Short           SG  6' 4" 200   16  71  27  47  20  40  86  48  95  52
Mark Snider           PG  6' 5" 187   33  77  10  13  27  49  75  35  55  85
Roger Wilke           PF  6' 8" 216   51  42  49  42  69  31  30  81  32  81
Max Kobel             PG  6' 1" 185   33  72  37  17  25  58  85  37  74  74
Neal Rodriguez        SG  6' 2" 185    6  26  64  17  16  36  73  42 100  52
Clark Danford         PF  6' 9" 268   68   8  30  13  62  89  24  73  43  65
Jerome Bopp           SF  6' 9" 237   14  27  87  20  69  68  50  64  53  65
Clayton Rippy         SG  6' 3" 206   22   6  33  13  29  79  70  42  95  64
Warren Holman         PF  6'10" 232   33  45  16  35  44  50  36  91  47  81
Don Elston            PF  6'11" 213   43  34   6  22  46  52  28  64  32  47
Alexis Houk           SF  6' 8" 215   53  28  59  33  41  31  70  62  41 100
Sterling Bouton       PG  6' 0" 172   31  58  51  18  26  25  85  27  67  65

The top 5 are my starters and all of them (except Quevedo) will be back next year. I'm looking for some advice on what defense I should run next year, since the starting 5 will be essentially the same (except Danford will probably start at the 5-spot instead of Quevedo).

I wonder if I should tone down my pace. I think that may be tiring the guys out. But I have a decent rotation going, so I don't know what the problem is. Also, my team seems to have a LOT of fouls. This year was slightly better, but we averaged 20.7 fouls per game (#297 in nation). Also our points allowed was ranked #319. If we could have played some frickin' defense, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen. Sigh.

I still have a solid chance this coming year to make some special things happen (I've only played in the second weekend of the dance once in school history), so I'm looking for some defensive advice before then.

As a follow-up/side note, does a higher pace lead to (many) more turnovers?

Thanks in advance for the tips.

[Balldog]

Your post defense is weak, are you double-teaming inside? Run a zone defense?

Usually when I have a team like this my training camp focus will be defense, 10s for PsD for PF and C, 7s in PsD and PrD for SF, and 10s in PrD for PG and SG. When I started to do this I noticed some more success. We won 20+ games for 6 years in a row, before I did this we were struggling to get to 15 for about 8 in a row.

[Balldog]

Originally Posted by Balldog

Your post defense is weak, are you double-teaming inside? Run a zone defense?

Usually when I have a team like this my training camp focus will be defense, 10s for PsD for PF and C, 7s in PsD and PrD for SF, and 10s in PrD for PG and SG. When I started to do this I noticed some more success. We won 20+ games for 6 years in a row, before I did this we were struggling to get to 15 for about 8 in a row.

My bad didn't see your settings.

I would probably slow down the pace a little bit.

[SirFozzie]

None of your guys really is great at defense right now, so I would try to make up for pure talent with effort. Bump up the level of trapping and pressing Or you could run a defense designed to be a team based defense, such as a 2-3 or 3-2 zone.

The faster your guys go, the more likely they will make turnovers, and just as important, the more CHANCES (Posessions) that they will have to turn over the ball.

[kingnebwsu]

Wow, my defense isn't that good? I always thought being a 50-60 rated defender would be at least decent when using my zone defense. Shows what I know

I think I will definitely tone down the tempo of the game. In a limited run when I did cut down my tempo from 9 to 6, my offense blew goats and scored like 55 points (that trial lasted one game vs a decent team). I need to have more patience.

The AD is starting to be a jerkface, just like WSU's real AD Since I had a miracle 2nd-place run 3 years ago, he expects me to be in the sweet 16. Will his expectations ever go lower? They've been Sweet 16 every year since then, and I have yet to even make the tourney.

[rexallllsc]

If you want to improve the D, pace 3 or 4. Zone.

Only scoring 55 points and using the clock isn't necessarily bad, as long as the other team is scoring low, too. It will prob. cut down turnovers, at least. There are other schools of though, too...the one where you forget D and just outscore the opponent (Loyola Marymount). If you're scoring high, I wouldn't worry about giving up a lot. In fact, your best D may be a good O.

[Eaglesfan27]

Also, try to get a premiere shot blocker. I always try to get at least one center with a 90 or higher blocking and a decent post defense, even if he can't do much else (of course it is great if you get one who can do a lot more then just that.) I've found that the disruption he will cause on the inside usually greatly helps my defense. I can usually find a one or two star center who will meet these criteria and come to my small school if I can't get a better player who also is a great shot blocker.

[kingnebwsu]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

If you want to improve the D, pace 3 or 4. Zone.

Only scoring 55 points and using the clock isn't necessarily bad, as long as the other team is scoring low, too. It will prob. cut down turnovers, at least. There are other schools of though, too...the one where you forget D and just outscore the opponent (Loyola Marymount). If you're scoring high, I wouldn't worry about giving up a lot. In fact, your best D may be a good O.

I've tried that gameplan, but my great offenses generally don't play well enough to outscore the opponent most of the time. Historically I noticed that my D needs to play well with my great O to win (duh ). I will drop the pace to 5 for the start of my new season and I'm going to try a 3-2 zone. We'll see if that helps.

I'm taking the advice on the defense thing, because I think I'll flip out if I have another crappy defensive year.

So do your defensive trainings look like...
(PSD/PRD)
C 10/0
PF 10/1
SF 7/5 (7/7, my guys were too stupid for this)
SG 1/10
PG 1/10

Should I even bother teaching post D to guards and perimeter D to big men? Thanks again for the tips. I won't run training camps til later tonight.

[TargetPractice6]

Yeah, pace has a lot to do with it. Last season I set my team's pace to 10. My opponents scored 70+ points a game, but my team scored 90+ points a game.

[Balldog]

Originally Posted by kingnebwsu

Should I even bother teaching post D to guards and perimeter D to big men? Thanks again for the tips. I won't run training camps til later tonight.

I generally don't.

[TargetPractice6]

I do if one of by post players has high potential in steals or if a guard has high potential in blocks.

[IMetTrentGreen]

1-3-1 trap pwns you

dont press, double team at your discretion. has worked wonders for me

also, your defense stick, ratings wise. recruit with prd and psd in mind. good defense and up-tmepo offense (7ish) offense will create enough points to win

[IMetTrentGreen]

lowering pace won't help the defense any less than it hurts the offense. total points is meaningless out of context. if you have pace at 10 and are limiting people to 75 points, thats pretty good in my experience

i've also found that high pace teams are better at getting more out of lesser scorers

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by kingnebwsu

Should I even bother teaching post D to guards and perimeter D to big men?

I wouldn't. Even if they were great at it, they wouldn't use it often enough.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by IMetTrentGreen

lowering pace won't help the defense any less than it hurts the offense. total points is meaningless out of context. if you have pace at 10 and are limiting people to 75 points, thats pretty good in my experience

i've also found that high pace teams are better at getting more out of lesser scorers

High pace can lead to more t/o, though. Low pace, in theory, can maximize offensive trips, and keep your best players in longer.

[C-Bailey]

Can someone help me understand defensive strategies better and how they work?

Double Team Inside/Outside - I take this to mean that if set real high that my team will double a good inside or outside scorer as much as possible. Am i wrong? I just had a game where the other teams Center came in averaging 24 ppg so my settings were : Man defense (my starting C is actually best defender with a 7 rating, scale 1-10) Press - 10, and Double Inside -10. The guy went 11-16 from the field and 7-9 from the line to total 29 points on the game. That doesn't seem right to me, but again, maybe i'm misunderstanding how to use the double team tactic and how it works.

2. 2-1-2 zone - what type of team is this best used againsta and what type of personnel should i have? 1-3-1? 3-2 ?

[kingnebwsu]

I did your defensive suggestions for training camp. My post D improved somewhat but my perimeter D improved HUGELY!!! 13 points for both my PG&SG (who are now 3rd year sophomores). Out of curiousity I quick-simmed my season to see how my team would do. Here's the results...

 Wright State Raiders 2016 Season Info

 Current Performance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Team Prestige: 69                      Record Vs 1-50: 3-5
 Season Record: 16-14                   Record Vs 51-100: 2-5
 Conference Record: 8-10                Record Vs 101-200: 6-3
 Home Record: 9-5                       Record Vs 200+: 5-1
 Current Poll Rank: NR                  Current RPI Rank: 84

 Stat Rankings:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Points:          75.1         National Rank: 71     Conference Rank: 5   
 Points Allowed:  74.0         National Rank: 254    Conference Rank: 6   
 Rebounds:        34.1         National Rank: 300    Conference Rank: 10  
 Assists:         17.2         National Rank: 33     Conference Rank: 3   
 Steals:          7.9          National Rank: 71     Conference Rank: 4   
 Blocks:          1.4          National Rank: 306    Conference Rank: 9   
 Turnovers:       15.2         National Rank: 208    Conference Rank: 7   
 Fouls:           21.3         National Rank: 313    Conference Rank: 10  
 FG%:            .460          National Rank: 18     Conference Rank: 3   
 FT%:            .735          National Rank: 22     Conference Rank: 3   
 3P%:            .380          National Rank: 34     Conference Rank: 3   

Team started out 13-4, then closed the season out 3-10 and got invited as the last team into the NIT. (Sigh). I dunno what to do when I play this season for real. I think my team is pretty decent, but results don't lie. Why are my fouls so stinkin' high? I have two-three guys who struggle with fouls, but the rest are pretty good. My TO's are also way high. My rebounds and points allowed is also craptacular. I'm trying to learn this game still, so I dunno what to do. Here's my roster...

 Wright State Raiders Player Defense Attributes

 Name                  Pos    Ht  Wt  PsD PrD Stl Blk Reb PFs Qkn Str Jmp Sta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Ramirez          C   6'11" 249   59  36  27  20  85  23  27  70  44  73
Clark Danford         PF  6' 9" 268   70   9  31  14  63  89  25  77  44  76
Colby Quick           SF  6' 7" 246   58  31  62  42  46  65  61  70  54  75
Roger Short           SG  6' 6" 200   17  84  30  49  22  40  87  50  96  58
Mark Snider           PG  6' 5" 188   35  90  11  14  29  49  75  37  56  92
Neal Rodriguez        SG  6' 2" 185    6  29  73  18  17  36  75  44 100  59
Max Kobel             PG  6' 1" 187   34  81  43  18  27  58  86  38  74  83
Don Elston            PF  7' 0" 221   49  35   7  25  52  52  29  68  33  57
Sterling Bouton       PG  6' 0" 173   33  69  57  19  27  25  86  28  68  70
Alexis Houk           SF  6' 8" 217   59  30  66  37  46  31  70  64  41 100
Clayton Rippy         SG  6' 3" 207   23   6  36  14  31  79  71  45  96  72
Paul Gray             C   6'11" 282   58  19  28  47  59  60  25  84  36  23
Reto Wittmann         PF  6' 8" 227   33  18  27  23  20  62  31  63  40  53
Hyman King            C   6'10" 235   36  26  28  28  47  36  23  85  39 100
Frank Paine           C   6'10" 260   50  32  34  46  48  44  19  85  39  70

 Wright State Raiders Player Offense Attributes

 Name                  Pos    Ht  Wt  Ins Jps 3ps Hnd Pas Reb Qkn Str Jmp Sta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Tony Ramirez          C   6'11" 249   82  56   0   9  34  69  27  70  44  73
 Clark Danford         PF  6' 9" 268   49  54  31  56  49  98  25  77  44  76
 Colby Quick           SF  6' 7" 246   62  48   7  16  30  21  61  70  54  75
 Roger Short           SG  6' 6" 200   63  52  43  45  39   8  87  50  96  58
 Mark Snider           PG  6' 5" 188   51  46  61  61  63   5  75  37  56  92
 Neal Rodriguez        SG  6' 2" 185   27  79  95  53   5  45  75  44 100  59
 Max Kobel             PG  6' 1" 187   51  38  69  50  35   9  86  38  74  83
 Don Elston            PF  7' 0" 221   64  22  29  26  23  74  29  68  33  57
 Sterling Bouton       PG  6' 0" 173   26  36  44  41  55  33  86  28  68  70
 Alexis Houk           SF  6' 8" 217   55  29  45   8  19  49  70  64  41 100
 Clayton Rippy         SG  6' 3" 207   23  33  72  50  14  37  71  45  96  72
 Paul Gray             C   6'11" 282   26  16  32  21  29  34  25  84  36  23
 Reto Wittmann         PF  6' 8" 227   25  20  19  22  23  52  31  63  40  53
 Hyman King            C   6'10" 235   47  54   5  32  17  53  23  85  39 100
 Frank Paine           C   6'10" 260   23  37   0  55  22  40  19  85  39  70

These are their stats pre-season and post-training camp. I'm going to sleep, because my frustration is overwhelming. On paper, this team seems better than past 20-win teams I've had (though granted I'm now in a prestige 4 conference instead of a prestige 3 one). But it still seems like I'm sucking bigtime. Esp. since both my starting guards are top-100 recruits. Snider was on the all-country freshmen team! He kicked ass last year.

(Shrug) anymore input is welcome as always

[IMetTrentGreen]

i have not found that lowering pace lowers turnovers. you pass more in a half court set, which cancels out anything running will bring

turnovers have much more to do with handling and passing than pace

[Balldog]

It looks like you may be getting burnt on the boards? Have you looked at your opponents offensive rebounds?

If a player does not have at least a C potentional for defense I don't recruit him. I do the same for rebounding with PF and C.