OT-Restaurant sues underage drinker

[sachmo71]

U-WIRE) HANOVER, N.H. -- A recent settlement between a University of New Hampshire student and a Durham store owner has armed New Hampshire alcohol purveyors with the power to file suit against underage patrons using false identification to purchase alcoholic beverages.
The student, Jeremy Reny, was caught using his older brother's valid driver's license. The New Hampshire Liquor Commission cited Reny for alcohol possession after he successfully purchased alcohol from the Durham Marketplace. Chuck Cressy, the store's owner, sued Reny after he was fined $250 for the transaction.

Reny agreed to a 30-hour community-service program related to alcohol/substance abuse instead of a jury trial involving a possible fine.

News of this settlement provoked immediate responses from Hanover businesses that sell alcohol and consequently handle buyers with fake IDs.

Jack Stinson of Stinson's Village Store in Hanover -- which has the highest volume of keg beer sales in New Hamsphire -- said he plans to take full legal advantage of the new precedent.

"If we were stuck with a major fine, I think we would certainly sue," Stinson said. "If someone knowingly misrepresents himself, they are just as guilty as someone selling it to him."

Cressy said that his store had taken sufficient preventative measures against underage buyers by investing in an ID scanner, employee training, various posters and cashier T-shirts inscribed with the fluorescent message "zero, zilch, nada, zero."

"Responsibility needs to lie on the individuals intending to buy alcohol by means of fake ID as long as the store has used every resource available to prevent sale," Cressy said.

According to Alden Moore, the chief of enforcement for the New Hampshire Liquor Commission, owning a fake ID is a class A misdemeanor that creates a criminal record for the offender. Repercussions range from a minimum fine of $250 to a maximum penalty of one-year imprisonment and/or $2,000 fine. The fine is doubled on the second offense.

A law that would double all of these fines is currently pending in the New Hampshire Legislature.

For any violation of its liquor license, a store incurs a fine that ranges from $100 to $500. Most damaging, though, is the loss of a liquor license for one to 10 days.

"In the short term, it probably gives the angry store owner a recourse against the patron who puts the store at risk," Moore said.

Stinson also said that a liquor store could be held responsible for accidents resulting from underage consumption and purchases, prompting many liquor stores, including Stinson's, to buy insurance.

Molly's Restaurant manager Randy Summaresell said that Molly's would not pursue legal action even if fined.

"I think everyone here is aware of our responsibility to make sure that everyone in our restaurant is of legal age, and I don't think it's an option to sue anyone here," Summarsell said.

John MacDonald, a manager at Murphy's On the Green, enthusiastically supported the ruling and its affirmation of retailer's rights.

"Our liquor license is worth more than some punk 19-year-old kid coming in here trying to drink," MacDonald said.

According to MacDonald, Murphy's checks every slightly questionable person's identification and has never been fined by the state liquor commission.

In addition to paying meticulous attention to IDs, both Stinson's and the Durham Marketplace bought ID scanners that have drastically reduced attempted underage purchases.

Stinson also spoke of an elaborate system that store employees use to notify the police of a person attempting to buy alcohol with a fake ID without the buyer noticing.

Despite the preponderance of preventative measures, Moore is skeptical that retailer and even state technology can keep pace with today's youth.

"It's reasonable to believe that when it comes to a technology battle, it's going to be an uphill fight, because we're looking at a generation of people who are very technology savvy," he said.

I actually heard a story about a California restaurant doing this, but I found this story instead.

I support this effort, to a point. While I totally support holding restaurants responsible for checking IDs and not allowing intoxicated persons to be served, I've long felt that the drinker should shoulder at least half of the responsibility. I've been on both sides of this issue, and I know I was much more concerned as a bartender that I would have to pay a huge fine and probably lose my job if I was fooled by a fake ID then I was when I was 17 using my brothers ID to buy beer. Maybe someday there will be technology to allow a restaurant to be able to tell with 100% accuracy how old someone is, but as of now, everyone can be fooled.

I'm curious to hear some other opinions on this.

[corbes]

I think the burden of responsibility ought to fall on both parties, yeh.

[Poli]

Underage drinking is probably the biggest problem for my students here at the base. It's rather unfortunate, since we hammer the student pretty hard if they're busted. I wish they'd get the message.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Underage drinking is probably the biggest problem for my students here at the base. It's rather unfortunate, since we hammer the student pretty hard if they're busted. I wish they'd get the message.

What happens to the person who served them?

[MrBug708]

Good for them

[Poli]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

What happens to the person who served them?

The underage student (sailor, or for that matter, military member) is in violation of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). They're punished as such.

I don't recall ever hearing of punishment for those that serve them, especially here.

A huge problem for us is that just outside the base we have a few 'establishments' that our sailors can 'buy' alcohol. Maybe they don't buy it themselves, but have someone (usually a bum standing just outside) else buy it.

The main issue here is our students. They should have the 'honor, courage, and commitment' to know not do such things. They know underage drinking is not acceptable.

[Samdari]

I am confused. The first paragraph mentions a civil suit filed by the store owner against the student. The second talks about community service and fines, which would be the disposal of a criminal case. What happened to the civil suit?

[sachmo71]

Maybe the state dropped the charge after seeing the settlement? It is a bit confusing.

[sachmo71]

Here is the actual story that I heard about...

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Local bars have started fighting back against underage drinkers by taking them to court and making them pay thousand of dollars.

After Amante bar received a $3,000 fine for serving an underage customer who had used someone else's driver's license to gain entrance, the owners decided to sue the 20-year-old woman in San Francisco's small claims court and last month won a $5,000 judgment.

Amante's owners have joined other bar owners to crack down on underage drinkers by turning to the court system.

Two years ago, another San Francisco bar owner sued two underage drinkers in civil court after being shut down temporarily by the California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control. The suit resulted in a $5,000 court settlement.

On the first offense, bar owners who are cited by the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control face a $3,000 fine or the prospect of losing their license for 15 days.

A second offense results in an automatic 25-day liquor license suspension. Bar owners lose their license and are forced to shut down if there's a third offense.

However the minor usually only faces a misdemeanor fine of about $250.

"The criminal fines on the minor are not severe enough," said San Francisco district manager for the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control, Everest Robillard.

He noted that in Contra Costa, Solano and other counties, officials will suspend an underage drinker's driver's license, a policy that has not yet been adopted in San Francisco.

[Draft Dodger]

coming from someone who benefitted a great deal from a fake ID used at UNH, I think holding the fraud liable is a great idea.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As plans go, I like this one pretty well.

[ScottVib]

I wholeheartedly support the restaurant and/or package store owner suing the guy with the fake ID.

You better believe that if the kid did something stupid and got himself hurt, that the parents would have sued the store/restaurant and probably the waiter/clerk for serving him. (I've actually seen/heard stories of these lawsuits)

Many states' laws read that not only the store gets in trouble, the clerk as well can be fined and/or jailed for selling to a minor. (When I worked at a Cumberland Farms during college that's the one thing they kept drilling into my head, just incase I thought about selling to my buddies from school)

Just as the stores/clerks can get in trouble and held liable both criminally and civilly, the minor trying to trick the store/clerk who's otherwise doing everything right should be able to be held liable both criminally and civilly for the damages caused by his or her actions.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

coming from someone who benefitted a great deal from a fake ID used at UNH, I think holding the fraud liable is a great idea.

I think you speak for a lot of people, even though I never had a fake ID, I was 6'4" in as a freshman in high scholl with a full beard and sprinkles of gray hair......The clerks just assumed

[Toddzilla]

I, for one, welcome our new responsibility-avoiding alcohol-serving overlords.

[Lathum]

Ok, this is a subject I am passionate about haveing been a bartender for so many years. I agree completley that the minor usoing the fake ID should be held accountable,however there are ways to prevent even this. You would be surprised how many people who work in a resturant serving liquor don't even look at the picture on the ID, or look at the experation date.
That being said there are some other things you can do. Some tricks I use if I suspect someone is using a fake ID is I'll ask them some questions such as when did they graduate high school or what is there sign. These are questions that anyone can answer without hesitation, and if they stumble then it isn't there ID. I politley tell them I don't feel comfortable serving them and if they wanna argue I'll tell them we can have the police come verify the ID for them. You would be amazed how quickly they cooperate after that.
The problem is it puts the resturant in a tough spot, especially in a college town. You know you are going to get a younger crowd and you just can't start turning away every person because you are worried it isn't there ID, you would lose to much business, so it is a fine line.
I think the best course of action would be this,we did this when I lived is connecticut, but it was a corporate policy, not anything legal. If there is someone who you feel is using a fake ID, make them sign a waiver form stating that it is them on the ID and they accept full responsibility should any legal action stem from the use of that ID. Then photocopy the ID and attatch it to the waiver form. Place in a file for future reference, then the bar/resturant wouldn't be liable, and the police could gain access to these files at will.
The bottom line is as a bartender you realize the risks you take when serving alchol, not even just to minors but to anyone. You need to accept the responsibility of this and take it very seriously.

[ISiddiqui]

This is brilliant! People who use fraud to purchase alcohol and then make the establishment suffer should pay. Of course, I'm against the age limit on drinking, but still, the law is the law.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This is brilliant! People who use fraud to purchase alcohol and then make the establishment suffer should pay. Of course, I'm against the age limit on drinking, but still, the law is the law.

Your against the age limit at where it is? Or against it completely?

[McSweeny]

well i don't really see it as that big a deal. I bought all kinds of booze and went to a few bars with my fake id(before i recently turned 21) but wasn't stupid about it. There will always be ways to beat the system. As long as a person's picks his spots and doesn't act like a complete fool it's pretty easy to get away with it. And if you do get caught? Sure punish away. You break the law, you get punished. Very simple

And a side note. They talk about these scanners as putting an end to fake id's. Well the id i had was just about perfect. The kid who made it for me had the barcode cracked and it scanned just fine. I only had a problem with it once and the bouncer said he could tell after he bit it and felt the thickness and texture that way... very strange. He was nice enough about it and complimented me on the fine workmenship my id showed.

[GoldenEagle]

I think the current drinking age should be lowered. I could be drafted to go serve in a war but can not legally purchase alcohol.

[ISiddiqui]

Your against the age limit at where it is? Or against it completely?

Practically or theoretically?

Theoretically, I'm a libertarian... so against it completely. Practically? 18 would be fine.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I think the current drinking age should be lowered. I could be drafted to go serve in a war but can not legally purchase alcohol.

I have problems with that argument. If you get drafted, and what are the chances of that?, would you really care about getting booze? Also, are the military bases 18 to drink? I think a differnet between a 21 year old and 18 year old drinking in the military is big maturity wise.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I think the current drinking age should be lowered. I could be drafted to go serve in a war but can not legally purchase alcohol.

Again, speaking from my vast bartending expierience, most 21 year olds aren't mature enough to drink, let alone 18.

[Lucky Jim]

Is that lack of maturity a function of not being able to drink responsibly for 21 years though? I think so. We learn to drink as criminals and punk kids, as much as we can until we get caught. I think the age limit is the problem, it creates the binge drinking atmosphere and conditions us as youths to abuse alcohol. Europe does not have the same problems with alcohol that we have with high school and college age kids, probably because they don't train people to see alcohol as a wild and crazy adventure against the establishment. I've got a lot of irritated feelings about this as someone that has been a responsible drinker around the world, and been "taught a lesson" by self important cops here in the states.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

I have problems with that argument. If you get drafted, and what are the chances of that?, would you really care about getting booze? Also, are the military bases 18 to drink? I think a differnet between a 21 year old and 18 year old drinking in the military is big maturity wise.

So you are saying just becuase I am not in the armed forces I am not mature to drink? I have drinked before and I know when enough is enough.

I enjoy a glass of slice/coconut rum - for the taste.

[finkenst]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

So you are saying just becuase I am not in the armed forces I am not mature to drink? I have drinked before and I know when enough is enough.

I enjoy a glass of slice/coconut rum - for the taste.

drinked?

good lord, are you drinking now, GE?

[cody8200]

I find this whole subject kind of amusing. I'm 21 now. I'm legal, but I drank far before I was legal. I'm sure many of you did the same. I've always said they should lower the age limit for drinking to 18 and increase the driving age to 18. The reason being far more people die in car wrecks than drinking deaths. Also no matter what the age of drinking, kids will drink before that age. Its not something that will ever cease. I dont have a problem with underages drinking at all. I have a problem with them driving. If we could seperate the two, then there is really no problem. While drinking takes a certain amount of maturity, so does everything else. People are certainly not ready to drive at 16 while talking on a cell phone (no matter what your age you probably arent)...some things should be considered worse than others...cars and cell phones dont mix. Much like driving and alcohol. I wonder if they did a study which causes more wrecks for people under 21. I'm guessing cell phones.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

I have problems with that argument. If you get drafted, and what are the chances of that?, would you really care about getting booze? Also, are the military bases 18 to drink? I think a differnet between a 21 year old and 18 year old drinking in the military is big maturity wise.

Some bases will lower the limit on base to 18. That is an effort to keep the underage drinkers on base and off the streets out in town. It's not uniform. The age on base here is 21.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Some bases will lower the limit on base to 18. ... It's not uniform.

I'd never really thought about that before. Is it base/post commander discretion? Or up the ladder a bit? Or ???

[Poli]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd never really thought about that before. Is it base/post commander discretion? Or up the ladder a bit? Or ???

I believe it is up to the commanding officer of each base, but again, I may be wrong. The only time I've actually heard of a lower limit on base was in California. It wasn't in effect at the time, but we were told the age was 18 for a while to keep sailors and marines from Mexico. It didn't work, but it was worth a shot.