Tillman killed by Friendly Fire.....?

[TLK]

Tillman Reportedly Killed by Friendly Fire
Ex-NFL Player Died Serving in Afghanistan

LOS ANGELES (May 29) - Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire as he led his team of Army Rangers up a hill during a firefight in Afghanistan last month, newspapers in California and Arizona reported Saturday.

The U.S. Army Special Operations Command was to release information later Saturday on the death of Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to join the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The Arizona Republic and The Argus of Fremont (Calif.) both reported the Army would announce Tillman, 27, was killed by fire from his fellow soldiers.

''It does seem pretty clear that he was killed by friendly fire,'' Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, told the Republic. Franks said his panel was alerted to the information by the Army's Legislative Liaison Office.

The Argus cited a family friend and also government sources it did not name as confirming the friendly fire report. Tillman's family declined to comment.

An Afghan military official told The Associated Press on Saturday that Tillman died because of a ''misunderstanding'' when two mixed groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion following an explosion.

The Afghan official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also contradicted U.S. reports that the American soldiers had come under enemy fire.

The Army has said Tillman was leading his comrades against enemy shooters who had pinned down other soldiers when he was killed on April 22.

Tillman, a member of the elite Ranger unit since 2002, was posthumously promoted from specialist to corporal. He also was awarded a Purple Heart and Silver Star.

''While many of us will be blessed to live a longer life, few of us will ever live a better one,'' said Sen. John McCain. R-Ariz., who spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. ''He was a most honorable man.''

When the Army announced he was being awarded the Silver Star, it said Tillman was killed after his platoon was split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.

His group was safely out of the area when the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, according to the Army, and he ordered them to return.

''Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground,'' the award announcement said. ''Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished.

''As a result of his leadership and his team's efforts, the platoon trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without a single casualty,'' the announcement said.

The Afghan official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the two groups of soldiers had drifted some distance apart during the operation in the remote Spera district of Khost province, close to the Pakistani border.

''Suddenly the sound of a mine explosion was heard somewhere between the two groups and the Americans in one group started firing,'' the official said, citing an account given to him by an Afghan fighter who was part of that group, not Tillman's.

''Nobody knew what it was - a mine, a remote-controlled bomb - or what was going on, or if enemy forces were firing. The situation was very confusing,'' the official said.

''As the result of this firing, that American was killed and three Afghan soldiers were injured. It was a misunderstanding and afterwards they realized that it was a mine that had exploded and there were no enemy forces.''

U.S. military officials in Kabul had no immediate comment.


05-29-04 0815EDT

[Tekneek]

"Friendly fire" is one of the strangest terms around. Did this even exist before the 80s and 90s? Or did they use the term "friendly fire" for guys in WWII who were killed by their own men/allies?

[ice4277]

I don't think they really used the term much before the Gulf War. If I'm not mistaken, didn't the term take off during Gulf War I because there were more troops killed by our own accidental fire than by the Iraqis?

Accidents in war are always going to happen, there were plenty of friendly fire accidents in previous wars, its just that our casualties have been so low during the last couple, they stand out more.

[Tekneek]

Oh, I don't doubt that. It's just the term "friendly fire" that sounds strange to me. There really isn't anything friendly about being killed by your compatriots.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The phenomenon has been around as long as armed combat has been around.
The earliest use I can recall seeing/hearing for this exact phrase is Vietnam-era.

Also learned, while net-searching, that the British use the phrase "blue-on-blue" for the same circumstances.

Also interesting to see a Pentagon estimate of friendly fire deaths in different conflicts: WWII - 16%, Vietnam - 14%, Gulf War - 23%, Afghanistan - 13%
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...riendly%20fire

I even ran across at least one book on the subject in case anybody is really curious
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...246066-8402002

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

"Friendly fire" is one of the strangest terms around. Did this even exist before the 80s and 90s? Or did they use the term "friendly fire" for guys in WWII who were killed by their own men/allies?

George Carlin addressed this very issue...

[WussGawd]

Friendly fire as a term has got to be about as old as the US Army. I certainly have read references to the term in writings as far back as the Civil War.

[Leonidas]

Pissing me off how the press is making such a big deal of this, like it somehow degrades the man's sacrifice. Tillman died in combat. "Friendly fire" is tragic, but it happens. The DoD has spent many, many millions on programs to solve this problem. It's not like the decision makers don't care or are negligent about it. Tillman's death is a tragedy, like the death of any other servicman in this war. Hopefully the Army will find some kernal of truth from what happened and use it in the future to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Pissing me off how the press is making such a big deal of this, like it somehow degrades the man's sacrifice. Tillman died in combat. "Friendly fire" is tragic, but it happens. The DoD has spent many, many millions on programs to solve this problem. It's not like the decision makers don't care or are negligent about it. Tillman's death is a tragedy, like the death of any other servicman in this war. Hopefully the Army will find some kernal of truth from what happened and use it in the future to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Right. Friendly fire is an unfortunate side effect of modern combat, particularly infantry combat. It's not the first, nor is it likely to be the last friendly fire combat death we will experience in these conflicts. It certainly does *not* denigrate his, or anybody else's contribution or sacrifice.

[druez]

Originally Posted by WussGawd

Right. Friendly fire is an unfortunate side effect of modern combat, particularly infantry combat. It's not the first, nor is it likely to be the last friendly fire combat death we will experience in these conflicts. It certainly does *not* denigrate his, or anybody else's contribution or sacrifice.

Stonewall Jackson was killed by friendly fire....

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by druez

Stonewall Jackson was killed by friendly fire....

I'd rather have Pat Tillman back than Stonewall Jackson.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

I'd rather have Pat Tillman back than Stonewall Jackson.

No kidding, Minnesota citizen. I couldn't imagine you thinking anything different.

Now, my family was still in Spain during the Civil War so I don't exactly have a side, but from my reading, if Stonewall and Pat were both fighting on the American side of a conflict, then you'd be a damned fool to choose Pat.

I'll comment on the rest of the thread now. I saw this first as a teaser for our local news and my heart sank. I'm not a fan of the government keeping secrets but on the other hand, there are some things we just don't need to know. I think this is one of those things.

It is meaningless in terms of anything that may have relevance. It's just an unfortunate accident that can only bring more grief to the Tillman family. Let it lie.

Can you imagine if they say the bullet came from Kevin??? Why would they let that out ( theoretically of course )?? Who NEEDS to know something like that?? I think anybodys need to know in a situation like this takes a backseat to basic human decency.

RIP Pat Tillman. You are an american hero and we'll never forget that nor minimalize your sacrifice.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Axxon

No kidding, Minnesota citizen. I couldn't imagine you thinking anything different.

Now, my family was still in Spain during the Civil War so I don't exactly have a side, but from my reading, if Stonewall and Pat were both fighting on the American side of a conflict, then you'd be a damned fool to choose Pat.

The difference being that Stonewall was never actually on the "American side of a conflict," he fought as a Confederate commander.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

The difference being that Stonewall was never actually on the "American side of a conflict," he fought as a Confederate commander.

He said "If they were", which means it was a hypothetical situation. I have not studied the Civil War as much as I would like to, but it seems that Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were widely regarded as brilliant. They would have been in charge of the Union side if they had wanted to be.

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

The difference being that Stonewall was never actually on the "American side of a conflict," he fought as a Confederate commander.

This would be where you are wrong. Robert E Lee, Longstreet, Jackson, Albert Sydney Johnston, and a whole lot of other commanders, North and South, got their first taste of battle in the Mexican-American War, and trust me, Stonewall didn't fight on the Mexican side. He commanded an artillery battery with some distinction in Scott's Army.

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by Axxon

No kidding, Minnesota citizen. I couldn't imagine you thinking anything different.

Now, my family was still in Spain during the Civil War so I don't exactly have a side, but from my reading, if Stonewall and Pat were both fighting on the American side of a conflict, then you'd be a damned fool to choose Pat.

I'll comment on the rest of the thread now. I saw this first as a teaser for our local news and my heart sank. I'm not a fan of the government keeping secrets but on the other hand, there are some things we just don't need to know. I think this is one of those things.

It is meaningless in terms of anything that may have relevance. It's just an unfortunate accident that can only bring more grief to the Tillman family. Let it lie.

Can you imagine if they say the bullet came from Kevin??? Why would they let that out ( theoretically of course )?? Who NEEDS to know something like that?? I think anybodys need to know in a situation like this takes a backseat to basic human decency.

RIP Pat Tillman. You are an american hero and we'll never forget that nor minimalize your sacrifice.

I think it was important for the Pentagon to set the record straight. The truth would have come out (Tillman's a celebrity at this point), and then, rightly, they woud hear about it for covering it up.

Let's contrast this with one of the more ridiculous things that came out of the Iraq conflict's opening days, the ridiculous attempt to deify Jessica Lynch as some kind of hero.

The stories we were hearing made her out to be somebody who killed 20 members of Saddam's army with nothing but a pocket knife. We quickly learned from her, no less, that she was basically knocked unconscious in the attack, and doesn't remember a thing. It was a source of some embarrassment for the Pentagon (as it should have been, since they were less than truthful about it, and even fed the Washington Post a bunch of b**ls**t about it in the first place).

This way it becomes a non-story. As for the grieving family, I suspect the family will still grieve for some time regardless. It's very hard to truly get over the grieving process of a loved one. For many people it can genuinely last for years. At least now they know rather than finding out about in 6 months when some disgruntled DoD employee leaks it to the Washington Post.

[Hurst2112]

No kidding, Minnesota citizen. I couldn't imagine you thinking anything different.

Actually, me living in Minnesota has nothing to do with it. The fact that I hate the south is much more important to the subject.

Really though, I would want Pat back more simply because he was a better tackler and understood a zone defence. Jackson knew how to ride a horse....